Hybrid Builds? Help!

InFernalEntity · July 2017

I'm not saying it's the most incredible tanking build in the world but...someone might perform better with something different. LA Resto was maybe a bad example for vet trials but you get the idea. Some people will play better with the unconventional.

Different strokes for different folks right?

On top of that...the key point you've made for DPS is they have to stay alive. A hybrid DPS might not reach the total a pure stack would but if you've got survivability and you can consistently clear the minimum expectation then you wouldn't be dragging your team down.

Actually...not dying and doing your job would mean you'd be doing exceptionally well?
There's no reason a hybrid can't fill the role almost as well as a stack build. What it doesn't pull in high numbers it will make up for in not needing rezzed (obviously in the hands of the right player).

If you ignore DPS and look at DPM...

Glass cannon 30k DPS. Dead 30% of the time.

So you get 42 seconds of 30k DPS for a total of ~1.25 million damage a minute.

25k DPS hybrid. Dead 15% of the time. 51 seconds of 25k DPS. For a total of ~1.25 million damage per minute.

Even if you remove 5k DPS from a hybrid build...you'd still be dealing a Mil a minute. Considering that's a 250k drop per minute and groups are expected to reach that every second that's marginal.

It's about staying alive AND doing your job like you said. If a hybrid gains survivability at the trade off of some DPS and could average similar numbers? I don't see the issue. Not to mention not dying takes so much pressure off of the rest of the group.

To combat the argument that you wouldn't be filling it to the best of your ability... you would be, just in alternative manner.

So far I've seen 2 interesting sorc builds and a NB I liked the look of. Has anyone else got a suggestion to answer the actual question being asked? You know...now that we've established that mathematically and performance wise you wouldn't necessarily be deadweight as a hybrid in vet trials and you could play your role etc.

InFernalEntity · July 2017

On the theory crafting of a hybrid what I'm looking for is a hybrid that can pull the numbers in a way that doesn't make it a burden in vet trials or HM vet dungeons and if I really wanted could run vMA.

Now with that specifically stated:
does anyone know if Vengeance Leech could be used to maintain sustain whilst running 5 pelenials and 2 Kena?
Would I be better running Willpower/Agility?
Or another 3 piece?
Do I get better DPS running 1 Kena and 1 Velidreth?
Monster helms + 3 pc jewellery sets or a second 5 piece?

Would stacking Stam at a 3:2 ratio against magicka be beneficial for a Dark Elf Hybrid?
Because of the 6% stamina buff vs the 9% magicka buff? Just to even out the pools and the average damage of your magic vs stamina abilities?

Because I'm currently running a wood elf, would running the Grace of the Ancients set be a good idea? For a 4% magicka buff? And stacking at 3/2 magicka/stamina split again to even out the pools?

If I went for an Imperial how much can I skimp on Health and Stam investment because of the 12%/10% increases?

Answers to questions like these as well as examples of builds were what I was looking for when I asked the question. Not an inquisition on why you would use anything other than stacking.

KochDerDamonen · July 2017

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Tecorsuh wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

@KochDerDamonen Oh my, are you implying you NEED 20k dps to get through a normal dungeon?! Maybe group dps, if that is what you meant and I am not misunderstanding you, then that's okay! If you meant individual dps, I'm going to need my LOL button back.

I doubt you meant individual DPS though, you're not new.

As for the main point you had, I agree. I'd rather take a competent player than a non competent one. I assure you, you can be a competent hybrid DPS.

I'm assuming that you're replying to my post, I did in fact say that 20k group dps is all you need to get through a normal dungeon.

No, I was referencing another post, and upon revisiting it realized I read it too fast- he/she did explicitly say GROUP DPS.

Edit one: My apologies to not fully reading your post, @KochDerDamonen

Edit two, did you know shortening your name is filtered? xD

@DocFrost72 I also didn't really mean normal dungeons

My name? Koch?

Tecorsuh · July 2017

InFernalEntity wrote: »

I'm not saying it's the most incredible tanking build in the world but...someone might perform better with something different. LA Resto was maybe a bad example for vet trials but you get the idea. Some people will play better with the unconventional.

Different strokes for different folks right?

On top of that...the key point you've made for DPS is they have to stay alive. A hybrid DPS might not reach the total a pure stack would but if you've got survivability and you can consistently clear the minimum expectation then you wouldn't be dragging your team down.

Actually...not dying and doing your job would mean you'd be doing exceptionally well?
There's no reason a hybrid can't fill the role almost as well as a stack build. What it doesn't pull in high numbers it will make up for in not needing rezzed (obviously in the hands of the right player).

If you ignore DPS and look at DPM...

Glass cannon 30k DPS. Dead 30% of the time.

So you get 42 seconds of 30k DPS for a total of ~1.25 million damage a minute.

25k DPS hybrid. Dead 15% of the time. 51 seconds of 25k DPS. For a total of ~1.25 million damage per minute.

Even if you remove 5k DPS from a hybrid build...you'd still be dealing a Mil a minute. Considering that's a 250k drop per minute and groups are expected to reach that every second that's marginal.

It's about staying alive AND doing your job like you said. If a hybrid gains survivability at the trade off of some DPS and could average similar numbers? I don't see the issue. Not to mention not dying takes so much pressure off of the rest of the group.

To combat the argument that you wouldn't be filling it to the best of your ability... you would be, just in alternative manner.

So far I've seen 2 interesting sorc builds and a NB I liked the look of. Has anyone else got a suggestion to answer the actual question being asked? You know...now that we've established that mathematically and performance wise you wouldn't necessarily be deadweight as a hybrid in vet trials and you could play your role etc.

Well, everyone has access to at least the light armor damage shield skill. Sorcs have their own damage shield, and even a self heal that is based on their crit rate. Using either of which won't affect their dps too much. You don't have to have more health or resistances in order to have more survivability, just a better technique to survive in a rough situation. There are other ways to continue to increase survivability without sacrificing damage.

For example, if you're using a crafted set(The current meta has Julianos as an option for mag users) Make sure you craft a heavy chest piece or pants for that extra resistances. Using 5/1/1 for the undaunted passives. CP in Bastion to make the damage shield more effective. A smidge more health if you think it would help, but I'd say no more than 19~20k after food buffs. All of that plus knowing when to go into survival mode during a run means that I don't die. Well, unless the boss hits me, or the healer stops healing during a critical time. But nobody survives that unless they went overkill on survivability.

Pre-morrowind I was pulling ~30k dps with my build, and could survive almost anything. But before morrowind dropped I lost interest in my DPS and decided to tank instead. I haven't gone back and fixed my build/rotation, so when I do play on the dps now, I tend to pull around ~22k.

I do want to make sure I'm over clear about this: I'm mainly talking trial situations because that is the only content which needs you to bring 100% to the table. 4 man dungeons are rarely a challenge unless one or more members aren't pulling their weight in the group. e.g. Tank isn't keeping aggro, healer is more interested in dps, the dps couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag. That is more of an issue with people being inexperienced, overconfident, or some other issue that can be worked through.

Yeah, I did kinda go overboard about the LA resto tank. Bad example for you, bad rant for me; I'd call us even on that one.

I'll post a theory craft in a second post.

Tecorsuh · July 2017

InFernalEntity wrote: »

So far I've seen 2 interesting sorc builds and a NB I liked the look of. Has anyone else got a suggestion to answer the actual question being asked? You know...now that we've established that mathematically and performance wise you wouldn't necessarily be deadweight as a hybrid in vet trials and you could play your role etc.

As for hybrid build? there was a link to one earlier:
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/

The build is overstated with its effectiveness, but could work with some tweaking?

Just theory crafting, haven't tested it and probably won't, just thinking outloud:

DoT Heavy Hybrid build.

Dunmer or Redguard Sorc

5x Pelinal’s Aptitude(all medium divines armor)

3x Vicious Serpent(jewelry)(can sub in Robust Agility jewelry)(Use weapon damage enchants)

2x Valkyn Scoria(both medium divines)<- lots of DoTs in this build so should proc pretty well.

1x Maelstrom Lightning staff(Sharpened)
2x Maelstrom Daggers(both Sharpened)

Attributes:
Make sure your health is 18~19k buffed(preferably use glyphs for this. either health or tri-glyphs on large pieces)
Split attribute points between mag and stam, leaning a bit more into stam.
Aim to get your stamina up to ~30k and Mag to 20~25k with glyphs and food buff. Skills are stam heavy.

Pots: Use weapon power pots to boost weapon damage and restore stam.

Food: Max Health, Max stam, and stam regen. (dubious camoran throne?)

Lightning Bar: Liquid Lightning, Blockade of Storms, Daedric Curse, Caltrops, Bound Armaments, Elemental Rage
Dual Weild: Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Hurricane, Flex, Bound Armaments, Flawless Dawnbreaker

Start off the fight by putting down all of your DoTs
(Caltrops, Daedric Curse, Liquid Lightning, Blockade, bar swap, Hurricane, Rending Slashes)
Every rotation you would apply Liquid Lightning, Blockade, and Rending Slashes
Every other rotation you would apply Daedric Curse and Hurricane
Every Third rotation you would apply Caltrops
Use Rapid strikes or heavy attack 1-2 times to fill the time between rotations
Drop Ele-rage whenever you start a rotation with the ultimate full.
Light attack between every skill

In the flex slot you should probably have ward, surge, or Mage's wrath. If you use surge, reapply every third rotation
Best morph for Daedric Curse should be Haunting curse. Caltrops should be the anti-cavalry morph. Surge should be crit surge. But can be switched if you think the other morph would fit your style better.

CP: Feel free to shift these at your discretion, I went for a broad set-up that splits into both damage spectrums. There are a couple of points that aren't placed because of jump points. Those leftover points can be placed into anything that isn't a % increase.
Warrior

Steed
Iron Clad 46

Lady
Hardy 58
Ele Defender 58
Thick Skinned 46

Lord

Thief

The Tower

The Lover
Mooncalf 75
Arcanist 75
Tenacity 46

The Shadow

The Mage

The Apprentice
Elemental Expert 75

The Atronach
Master-at-Arms 31

The Ritual
Mighty 73
Thaumaturge 31

EDIT: Sample Build

usmcjdking · July 2017

Tecorsuh wrote: »

InFernalEntity wrote: »

So far I've seen 2 interesting sorc builds and a NB I liked the look of. Has anyone else got a suggestion to answer the actual question being asked? You know...now that we've established that mathematically and performance wise you wouldn't necessarily be deadweight as a hybrid in vet trials and you could play your role etc.

As for hybrid build? there was a link to one earlier:
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/

The build is overstated with its effectiveness, but could work with some tweaking?

Just theory crafting, haven't tested it and probably won't, just thinking outloud:

DoT Heavy Hybrid build.

Dunmer or Redguard Sorc

5x Pelinal’s Aptitude(all medium divines armor)

3x Vicious Serpent(jewelry)(can sub in Robust Agility jewelry)(Use weapon damage enchants)

2x Valkyn Scoria(both medium divines)<- lots of DoTs in this build so should proc pretty well.

1x Maelstrom Lightning staff(Sharpened)
2x Maelstrom Daggers(both Sharpened)

Attributes:
Make sure your health is 18~19k buffed(preferably use glyphs for this. either health or tri-glyphs on large pieces)
Split attribute points between mag and stam, leaning a bit more into stam.
Aim to get your stamina up to ~30k and Mag to 20~25k with glyphs and food buff. Skills are stam heavy.

Pots: Use weapon power pots to boost weapon damage and restore stam.

Food: Max Health, Max stam, and stam regen. (dubious camoran throne?)

Lightning Bar: Liquid Lightning, Blockade of Storms, Daedric Curse, Caltrops, Bound Armaments, Elemental Rage
Dual Weild: Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Hurricane, Flex, Bound Armaments, Flawless Dawnbreaker

Start off the fight by putting down all of your DoTs
(Caltrops, Daedric Curse, Liquid Lightning, Blockade, bar swap, Hurricane, Rending Slashes)
Every rotation you would apply Liquid Lightning, Blockade, and Rending Slashes
Every other rotation you would apply Daedric Curse and Hurricane
Every Third rotation you would apply Caltrops
Use Rapid strikes or heavy attack 1-2 times to fill the time between rotations
Drop Ele-rage whenever you start a rotation with the ultimate full.
Light attack between every skill

In the flex slot you should probably have ward, surge, or Mage's wrath. If you use surge, reapply every third rotation
Best morph for Daedric Curse should be Haunting curse. Caltrops should be the anti-cavalry morph. Surge should be crit surge. But can be switched if you think the other morph would fit your style better.

CP: Feel free to shift these at your discretion, I went for a broad set-up that splits into both damage spectrums. There are a couple of points that aren't placed because of jump points. Those leftover points can be placed into anything that isn't a % increase.
Warrior

Steed
Iron Clad 46

Lady
Hardy 58
Ele Defender 58
Thick Skinned 46

Lord

Thief

The Tower

The Lover
Mooncalf 75
Arcanist 75
Tenacity 46

The Shadow

The Mage

The Apprentice
Elemental Expert 75

The Atronach
Master-at-Arms 31

The Ritual
Mighty 73
Thaumaturge 31

Unless you have tested it recently, Minor Slayer was a DPS loss compared to arcane Agility on the linked build. In addition, you should not be using weapon power potions unless there is no other source of Major Brutality available to you as you will never even come close to running low on stamina but will be out of magicka by rotation #2.

Tecorsuh · July 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

Tecorsuh wrote: »

InFernalEntity wrote: »

So far I've seen 2 interesting sorc builds and a NB I liked the look of. Has anyone else got a suggestion to answer the actual question being asked? You know...now that we've established that mathematically and performance wise you wouldn't necessarily be deadweight as a hybrid in vet trials and you could play your role etc.

As for hybrid build? there was a link to one earlier:
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/

The build is overstated with its effectiveness, but could work with some tweaking?

Just theory crafting, haven't tested it and probably won't, just thinking outloud:

DoT Heavy Hybrid build.

Dunmer or Redguard Sorc

5x Pelinal’s Aptitude(all medium divines armor)

3x Vicious Serpent(jewelry)(can sub in Robust Agility jewelry)(Use weapon damage enchants)

2x Valkyn Scoria(both medium divines)<- lots of DoTs in this build so should proc pretty well.

1x Maelstrom Lightning staff(Sharpened)
2x Maelstrom Daggers(both Sharpened)

Attributes:
Make sure your health is 18~19k buffed(preferably use glyphs for this. either health or tri-glyphs on large pieces)
Split attribute points between mag and stam, leaning a bit more into stam.
Aim to get your stamina up to ~30k and Mag to 20~25k with glyphs and food buff. Skills are stam heavy.

Pots: Use weapon power pots to boost weapon damage and restore stam.

Food: Max Health, Max stam, and stam regen. (dubious camoran throne?)

Lightning Bar: Liquid Lightning, Blockade of Storms, Daedric Curse, Caltrops, Bound Armaments, Elemental Rage
Dual Weild: Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Hurricane, Flex, Bound Armaments, Flawless Dawnbreaker

Start off the fight by putting down all of your DoTs
(Caltrops, Daedric Curse, Liquid Lightning, Blockade, bar swap, Hurricane, Rending Slashes)
Every rotation you would apply Liquid Lightning, Blockade, and Rending Slashes
Every other rotation you would apply Daedric Curse and Hurricane
Every Third rotation you would apply Caltrops
Use Rapid strikes or heavy attack 1-2 times to fill the time between rotations
Drop Ele-rage whenever you start a rotation with the ultimate full.
Light attack between every skill

In the flex slot you should probably have ward, surge, or Mage's wrath. If you use surge, reapply every third rotation
Best morph for Daedric Curse should be Haunting curse. Caltrops should be the anti-cavalry morph. Surge should be crit surge. But can be switched if you think the other morph would fit your style better.

CP: Feel free to shift these at your discretion, I went for a broad set-up that splits into both damage spectrums. There are a couple of points that aren't placed because of jump points. Those leftover points can be placed into anything that isn't a % increase.
Warrior

Steed
Iron Clad 46

Lady
Hardy 58
Ele Defender 58
Thick Skinned 46

Lord

Thief

The Tower

The Lover
Mooncalf 75
Arcanist 75
Tenacity 46

The Shadow

The Mage

The Apprentice
Elemental Expert 75

The Atronach
Master-at-Arms 31

The Ritual
Mighty 73
Thaumaturge 31

Unless you have tested it recently, Minor Slayer was a DPS loss compared to arcane Agility on the linked build. In addition, you should not be using weapon power potions unless there is no other source of Major Brutality available to you as you will never even come close to running low on stamina but will be out of magicka by rotation #2.

1) Haven't tested it, and really don't plan to, said that before the build
2) The linked build was from 5 months ago, and there has been a major update since then.
3) The only reason Agility would be out performing the minor slayer is if the DPS was terribad, 200 weapon damage from 3 piece agility is not all that much.(there is a reason why 3 piece IA is used over 3 piece Willpower)
4) If you wanted, you could sacrifice monster helm for 5 pieces of vicious serpent. The helm can only really offer ~2k dps. might be able to get more out of the increased weapon crit and cost reduction, plus the extra 130 weapon damage on the 5 piece
5) I increased the number of skills using stam over your rotation, you will be burning through stam, and if you're using crit surge, then yes it would be a waste to use the weapon power pots. Could probably use weapon crit pots or tri pots there instead
6) This build is going to constantly be starving for resources, there is no way around that. You will be spamming pots, so pick your poison.

edit: updated quote and remarks

InFernalEntity · July 2017

@Tecorsuh it definitely looks interesting.
I'm wondering if keeping the race as wood elf would help with sustain. Obviously it won't do as much raw DPS but it should prevent running out of stamina and let's me use magicka pots.

Sustain seems to be quite important this patch with the removal of the cost reduction stars and the nerf to the regen stars. Like you said though, it's there to be tweaked.

thank you for your input!

usmcjdking · July 2017

InFernalEntity wrote: »

@Tecorsuh it definitely looks interesting.
I'm wondering if keeping the race as wood elf would help with sustain. Obviously it won't do as much raw DPS but it should prevent running out of stamina and let's me use magicka pots.

Sustain seems to be quite important this patch with the removal of the cost reduction stars and the nerf to the regen stars. Like you said though, it's there to be tweaked. thank you for your input!

The build I linked to you was on a Nord with 0 points in old Warlord. I rarely ever had stam issues even considering I used spell power potions. You will not have stam sustain issues in medium as you won't have sustain issues with mag in light. The secondary stat is the one that suffers the most and where sustain can become problematic. As a mag secondary you have orbs & ele drain which will easily cover mag consumption while if you are stam secondary you don't have too many options available.

Tecorsuh · July 2017

a

InFernalEntity wrote: »

@Tecorsuh it definitely looks interesting.
I'm wondering if keeping the race as wood elf would help with sustain. Obviously it won't do as much raw DPS but it should prevent running out of stamina and let's me use magicka pots.

Sustain seems to be quite important this patch with the removal of the cost reduction stars and the nerf to the regen stars. Like you said though, it's there to be tweaked. thank you for your input!

Personally, if it were me making it, I would go for the higher pools. Dark elf offers 9% max magicka and 6% max stamina, larger pools mean more damage. You're more than likely going to be chugging tri-pots for the build to work anyways, so no downside for the larger pool.

But the 21% stam recovery that wood elves get seems pretty nice. If you have say 1000 stam recovery, it would go to 1210, 1500 would go to 1815. You also have to remember that recovery is that value every 2 seconds. While 1815 does seem like a lot a pool of 30k would take ~30 seconds to fully recover. You would get enough to cover a single rapid strikes(at full value, ~3200) in 4 seconds. A stam recovery effect on a potion gives major endurance(+20% stam recovery) on top of the value restores. If the values are additive, that would mean, with bosmer and potion, 1500 would increase to 2115. which would mean 4k restored in 4 seconds, 8k in 8 seconds, so 2 casts of rapid strikes(at full value, ~3200 each) in 8 seconds on recovery alone.

If bosmer is what you want then go for it. It's not a bad choice. However, I think you're going to need to use tri-pots to maintain both pools, regen alone won't sustain a poll if you are actively using it.

LadyNalcarya · July 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/

The build information is obviously outdated but it should serve as a strong base for your personal expansion. End-game hybrids are a black hole of funds, time and testing man. But sooner or later it'll all click and you'll be able to rock some socks with it

Do you have a proper dps test with this build? Or trial parses?
I mean, its a dungeon boss parse, and a pretty old one, from 5 months ago.
Just curious.

usmcjdking · July 2017

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/

The build information is obviously outdated but it should serve as a strong base for your personal expansion. End-game hybrids are a black hole of funds, time and testing man. But sooner or later it'll all click and you'll be able to rock some socks with it

Do you have a proper dps test with this build? Or trial parses?
I mean, its a dungeon boss parse, and a pretty old one, from 5 months ago.
Just curious.

No I don't. I no longer play ESO but was directed to this thread because I still do love hybrids.

Tecorsuh · July 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

InFernalEntity wrote: »

@Tecorsuh it definitely looks interesting.
I'm wondering if keeping the race as wood elf would help with sustain. Obviously it won't do as much raw DPS but it should prevent running out of stamina and let's me use magicka pots.

Sustain seems to be quite important this patch with the removal of the cost reduction stars and the nerf to the regen stars. Like you said though, it's there to be tweaked. thank you for your input!

The build I linked to you was on a Nord with 0 points in old Warlord. I rarely ever had stam issues even considering I used spell power potions. You will not have stam sustain issues in medium as you won't have sustain issues with mag in light. The secondary stat is the one that suffers the most and where sustain can become problematic. As a mag secondary you have orbs & ele drain which will easily cover mag consumption while if you are stam secondary you don't have too many options available.

Have you played a straight mag character with a tight rotation in the latest patch? You HAVE to chug magicka (preferably spell power) pots, have someone running ele-drain, and if those aren't enough switch to witchmother's potent brew(max mag + max health + mag regen)

Also, shards and orbs now restore your highest attribute. So if stam is higher you will restore stam with them. There is nothing to restore stam as a secondary pool anymore(repentance is self only), and only ele-drain for mag if it is secondary.

Also, from your build post:

The Thief
Magician : 100 points
Warlord : 30 points
Arcanist : 33 points
Mooncalf : 24 points

I don't remember how much of a % 30 points was, but I'm sure it was significant enough.(if it were a 15% star, 30 points would be ~5%)

Have you actually checked the viability of that build against a target dummy in the lastest patch? Things have changed, a lot. I'm not saying the changes I made are going to be perfect. . .

usmcjdking wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/

The build information is obviously outdated but it should serve as a strong base for your personal expansion. End-game hybrids are a black hole of funds, time and testing man. But sooner or later it'll all click and you'll be able to rock some socks with it

Do you have a proper dps test with this build? Or trial parses?
I mean, its a dungeon boss parse, and a pretty old one, from 5 months ago.
Just curious.

No I don't. I no longer play ESO but was directed to this thread because I still do love hybrids.

Okay, that answers my question, so nevermind.

Just FYI, they nerfed the hell out of sustain, and chugging pots is required to maintain your primary resource pool. Everything that could return resources was changed or removed in some way. The CP stars for reduce cost are gone. The CP stars for recovery were cut in half. Recovery is general is significantly lower. Most other sources of lower resource cost by % is gone. Most forms of giving resources have been changed: Repentance is self only, necrotic orb and its morphs and shards have the same synergy and share a cooldown, Nightblade leeching strikes was changed to give less, and etc. This is just scratching the surface of what was changed. There is no way that your build came out of this patch completely unscathed.

usmcjdking · July 2017

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/

The build information is obviously outdated but it should serve as a strong base for your personal expansion. End-game hybrids are a black hole of funds, time and testing man. But sooner or later it'll all click and you'll be able to rock some socks with it

Do you have a proper dps test with this build? Or trial parses?
I mean, its a dungeon boss parse, and a pretty old one, from 5 months ago.
Just curious.

No I don't. I no longer play ESO but was directed to this thread because I still do love hybrids.

Tecorsuh wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

InFernalEntity wrote: »

@Tecorsuh it definitely looks interesting.
I'm wondering if keeping the race as wood elf would help with sustain. Obviously it won't do as much raw DPS but it should prevent running out of stamina and let's me use magicka pots.

Sustain seems to be quite important this patch with the removal of the cost reduction stars and the nerf to the regen stars. Like you said though, it's there to be tweaked. thank you for your input!

The build I linked to you was on a Nord with 0 points in old Warlord. I rarely ever had stam issues even considering I used spell power potions. You will not have stam sustain issues in medium as you won't have sustain issues with mag in light. The secondary stat is the one that suffers the most and where sustain can become problematic. As a mag secondary you have orbs & ele drain which will easily cover mag consumption while if you are stam secondary you don't have too many options available.

Have you played a straight mag character with a tight rotation in the latest patch? You HAVE to chug magicka (preferably spell power) pots, have someone running ele-drain, and if those aren't enough switch to witchmother's potent brew(max mag + max health + mag regen)

Also, shards and orbs now restore your highest attribute. So if stam is higher you will restore stam with them. There is nothing to restore stam as a secondary pool anymore(repentance is self only), and only ele-drain for mag if it is secondary.

Also, from your build post:

The Thief
Magician : 100 points
Warlord : 30 points
Arcanist : 33 points
Mooncalf : 24 points

I don't remember how much of a % 30 points was, but I'm sure it was significant enough.(if it were a 15% star, 30 points would be ~5%)

Have you actually checked the viability of that build against a target dummy in the lastest patch? Things have changed, a lot. I'm not saying the changes I made are going to be perfect. . .

usmcjdking wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/

The build information is obviously outdated but it should serve as a strong base for your personal expansion. End-game hybrids are a black hole of funds, time and testing man. But sooner or later it'll all click and you'll be able to rock some socks with it

Do you have a proper dps test with this build? Or trial parses?
I mean, its a dungeon boss parse, and a pretty old one, from 5 months ago.
Just curious.

No I don't. I no longer play ESO but was directed to this thread because I still do love hybrids.

Okay, that answers my question, so nevermind.

Just FYI, they nerfed the hell out of sustain, and chugging pots is required to maintain your primary resource pool. Everything that could return resources was changed or removed in some way. The CP stars for reduce cost are gone. The CP stars for recovery were cut in half. Recovery is general is significantly lower. Most other sources of lower resource cost by % is gone. Most forms of giving resources have been changed: Repentance is self only, necrotic orb and its morphs and shards have the same synergy and share a cooldown, Nightblade leeching strikes was changed to give less, and etc. This is just scratching the surface of what was changed. There is no way that your build came out of this patch completely unscathed.

As I originally stated, the information is old, but the build and rotation are still sound enough to serve as the basis for any hybrid build. This particular build has cleared everything Pre-Morrowind with the exception of HM VMOL and posted a 530k VMA score w/ Flawless Conqueror. This build simply had no sustain issues by itself, much less with raid buffs at the time of it's finalization. The consumption rates are simply too low to make a significant DPS difference with what I've read IRT the changes made to sustain.

With that said, it needs to be adjusted to fit into the current playstyle. Just not by me.

Tecorsuh · July 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/

The build information is obviously outdated but it should serve as a strong base for your personal expansion. End-game hybrids are a black hole of funds, time and testing man. But sooner or later it'll all click and you'll be able to rock some socks with it

Do you have a proper dps test with this build? Or trial parses?
I mean, its a dungeon boss parse, and a pretty old one, from 5 months ago.
Just curious.

No I don't. I no longer play ESO but was directed to this thread because I still do love hybrids.

Tecorsuh wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

InFernalEntity wrote: »

@Tecorsuh it definitely looks interesting.
I'm wondering if keeping the race as wood elf would help with sustain. Obviously it won't do as much raw DPS but it should prevent running out of stamina and let's me use magicka pots.

Sustain seems to be quite important this patch with the removal of the cost reduction stars and the nerf to the regen stars. Like you said though, it's there to be tweaked. thank you for your input!

The build I linked to you was on a Nord with 0 points in old Warlord. I rarely ever had stam issues even considering I used spell power potions. You will not have stam sustain issues in medium as you won't have sustain issues with mag in light. The secondary stat is the one that suffers the most and where sustain can become problematic. As a mag secondary you have orbs & ele drain which will easily cover mag consumption while if you are stam secondary you don't have too many options available.

Have you played a straight mag character with a tight rotation in the latest patch? You HAVE to chug magicka (preferably spell power) pots, have someone running ele-drain, and if those aren't enough switch to witchmother's potent brew(max mag + max health + mag regen)

Also, shards and orbs now restore your highest attribute. So if stam is higher you will restore stam with them. There is nothing to restore stam as a secondary pool anymore(repentance is self only), and only ele-drain for mag if it is secondary.

Also, from your build post:

The Thief
Magician : 100 points
Warlord : 30 points
Arcanist : 33 points
Mooncalf : 24 points

I don't remember how much of a % 30 points was, but I'm sure it was significant enough.(if it were a 15% star, 30 points would be ~5%)

Have you actually checked the viability of that build against a target dummy in the lastest patch? Things have changed, a lot. I'm not saying the changes I made are going to be perfect. . .

usmcjdking wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/

The build information is obviously outdated but it should serve as a strong base for your personal expansion. End-game hybrids are a black hole of funds, time and testing man. But sooner or later it'll all click and you'll be able to rock some socks with it

Do you have a proper dps test with this build? Or trial parses?
I mean, its a dungeon boss parse, and a pretty old one, from 5 months ago.
Just curious.

No I don't. I no longer play ESO but was directed to this thread because I still do love hybrids.

Okay, that answers my question, so nevermind.

Just FYI, they nerfed the hell out of sustain, and chugging pots is required to maintain your primary resource pool. Everything that could return resources was changed or removed in some way. The CP stars for reduce cost are gone. The CP stars for recovery were cut in half. Recovery is general is significantly lower. Most other sources of lower resource cost by % is gone. Most forms of giving resources have been changed: Repentance is self only, necrotic orb and its morphs and shards have the same synergy and share a cooldown, Nightblade leeching strikes was changed to give less, and etc. This is just scratching the surface of what was changed. There is no way that your build came out of this patch completely unscathed.

As I originally stated, the information is old, but the build and rotation are still sound enough to serve as the basis for any hybrid build. This particular build has cleared everything Pre-Morrowind with the exception of HM VMOL and posted a 530k VMA score w/ Flawless Conqueror. This build simply had no sustain issues by itself, much less with raid buffs at the time of it's finalization. The consumption rates are simply too low to make a significant DPS difference with what I've read IRT the changes made to sustain.

With that said, it needs to be adjusted to fit into the current playstyle. Just not by me.

There is no more cost reduction in the CP tree, the recovery was from CP tress was cut by half. Recovery and cost reduction from armor sets was cut in half as well. Along with a number of other changes to recovery and cost reduction passives and skills from every skill line that had them. The changes were extensive and no build was untouched, yours included.

If you haven't got the point yet, there was a major overhaul to sustain. So you saying that the build should still be fine, without even testing it, is absolutely wrong. Whatever you use to be able to do on the toon doesn't matter now because things have changed, and without you testing your build on a dummy, we'll never know what it is capable now.

I didn't have sustain issues on my mag sorc before the nerf and could pull ~30k dps, unbuffed. I could barely pull ~18k dps right after patch with the same armor and rotation. With some adjustments to my armor and rotation I could pull ~22k again. I still have major sustain issues now that I didn't have before. If I cared enough I could probably start pulling the 30k dps again, but I don't, I'd rather tank or heal.

Wait, wait, wait... Consumption rates are simply too low, on your primary resource pool?

To set this up. There is only a 3% stam cost reduction on armor, so I'm just going to ignore that(it's less than 100 on the highest costing skill) Sorcs have no cost reduction that I'm aware of, Nords have no cost reduction. Sorcs no longer have recovery in their passives. Nords never had recovery, and the stam recovery from med armor is only 4%, not worth counting.

Skills in your rotation with their base cost:
Stam Skills: Rapid Strikes(RS) 3.2k, Twin Slashes(TS) 1.2k, rearming trap(RT) 3.4k
Mag skills: Boundless storm 3.9k(BS) Liquid Lightning(LL) 3.4k, Elemental blockade(EB) 2.9k

Your recovery estimate adjusted for the new patch: ~800 stam recovery and ~800 mag recovery. I admit that these are on the low side, but it wouldn't matter that much if I increased it to 1000(500/s instead of 400/s).

Total resources are 30k stam and 20k mag.

Now, those numbers plugged into the rotation you provided on your build.

BS 3.9 > LL 3.4 > EB 2.9 > swap RS 3.2 > RT 3.4 > RS 3.2 > TS 1.2 > RS 3.2 > Loop

Just on this part of the rotation you've expended 10k mag, 14k stam. That is half of your resources. It's been ~10 seconds so you've regained ~4k mag and ~4k stam from your recovery.

LL 3.4 > EB 2.9 > swap RS 3.2 > RT 3.4 > RS 3.2 > TS 1.2 > RS 3.2 > Loop

Next part another 6.3k Mag and 14k stam. It's also been another ~10 seconds so you've regained ~4k mag and ~4k stam.

Net loss has been 16.3k mag and 28k stam. Net gain has been ~8k Mag and ~8k stam

So you're sitting at ~10k stam and ~12k mag at the end of the second rotation. You don't have enough stam for the next rotation, and barely enough mag.

Even if your stam/mag recover was sitting at 1k, that would be an extra 1k Stam/Mag Hell, if I fudged the numbers a bit and tried to give you the cost reduction, that would be another 1k stam. Heavy attacking once in the rotation would be ~2k per, so another ~4k. After those adjustments, you're sitting at ~16k stam and ~13k mag.

BS 3.9 > LL 3.4 > EB 2.9 > swap RS 3.2 > RT 3.4 > RS 3.2 > TS 1.2 > RS 3.2 > Loop

Last leg of the journey. You've expended 10k mag and 13.5k stamina. It's been ~10 seocnds so ~5k mag and ~5k stam(using adj numbers). Your heavy attack restored ~2k Stam.

Final numbers! You're sitting at ~8k mag and ~9.5k stam. You've been fighting for a total of ~30 seconds. Which means you would have only been able to use 1 potion.

Regardless, both of your resources are almost dry. You would have to be sitting at least 2k stam recovery to not need to use pots for stam; 1.6k mag recovery to not need mag pots. Neither of which can be achieved unless you are built specifically towards that. So what was that about not needing stam pots?

Also, this is just assuming that the rotation you were running had good timing. It should take ~10 seconds from the start of the rotation(dropping LL) to bar swapping back to reapply LL.

In this patch, if you want to hybrid, expect to chug tri-pots.

P.S. You frustrated me enough that I spent way too long working those numbers and making sure I didn't miss a hidden regen or cost reduction. I didn't.

P.P.S. Please stop trying to convince me(and others) that your build is still fine when it's not. Your past achievements mean nothing when there has been a major overhaul to the game, one that fundamentally changes how the game is played. Especially when you're not interested in playing the game.

EDIT: One more thing, pre-nerf you could have ~15% cost reduction without even trying. that's 5x the reduction that I had figured into the rotation. So, It was ~500 total for the rotation post nerf. Pre-nerf it was probably ~2.5k which means your pre-nerf number would have been ~17k on the 3rd rotation. Your build worked before, but it can't work now.

usmcjdking · July 2017

Tecorsuh wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/

The build information is obviously outdated but it should serve as a strong base for your personal expansion. End-game hybrids are a black hole of funds, time and testing man. But sooner or later it'll all click and you'll be able to rock some socks with it

Do you have a proper dps test with this build? Or trial parses?
I mean, its a dungeon boss parse, and a pretty old one, from 5 months ago.
Just curious.

No I don't. I no longer play ESO but was directed to this thread because I still do love hybrids.

Tecorsuh wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

InFernalEntity wrote: »

@Tecorsuh it definitely looks interesting.
I'm wondering if keeping the race as wood elf would help with sustain. Obviously it won't do as much raw DPS but it should prevent running out of stamina and let's me use magicka pots.

Sustain seems to be quite important this patch with the removal of the cost reduction stars and the nerf to the regen stars. Like you said though, it's there to be tweaked. thank you for your input!

The build I linked to you was on a Nord with 0 points in old Warlord. I rarely ever had stam issues even considering I used spell power potions. You will not have stam sustain issues in medium as you won't have sustain issues with mag in light. The secondary stat is the one that suffers the most and where sustain can become problematic. As a mag secondary you have orbs & ele drain which will easily cover mag consumption while if you are stam secondary you don't have too many options available.

Have you played a straight mag character with a tight rotation in the latest patch? You HAVE to chug magicka (preferably spell power) pots, have someone running ele-drain, and if those aren't enough switch to witchmother's potent brew(max mag + max health + mag regen)

Also, shards and orbs now restore your highest attribute. So if stam is higher you will restore stam with them. There is nothing to restore stam as a secondary pool anymore(repentance is self only), and only ele-drain for mag if it is secondary.

Also, from your build post:

The Thief
Magician : 100 points
Warlord : 30 points
Arcanist : 33 points
Mooncalf : 24 points

I don't remember how much of a % 30 points was, but I'm sure it was significant enough.(if it were a 15% star, 30 points would be ~5%)

Have you actually checked the viability of that build against a target dummy in the lastest patch? Things have changed, a lot. I'm not saying the changes I made are going to be perfect. . .

usmcjdking wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/

The build information is obviously outdated but it should serve as a strong base for your personal expansion. End-game hybrids are a black hole of funds, time and testing man. But sooner or later it'll all click and you'll be able to rock some socks with it

Do you have a proper dps test with this build? Or trial parses?
I mean, its a dungeon boss parse, and a pretty old one, from 5 months ago.
Just curious.

No I don't. I no longer play ESO but was directed to this thread because I still do love hybrids.

Okay, that answers my question, so nevermind.

Just FYI, they nerfed the hell out of sustain, and chugging pots is required to maintain your primary resource pool. Everything that could return resources was changed or removed in some way. The CP stars for reduce cost are gone. The CP stars for recovery were cut in half. Recovery is general is significantly lower. Most other sources of lower resource cost by % is gone. Most forms of giving resources have been changed: Repentance is self only, necrotic orb and its morphs and shards have the same synergy and share a cooldown, Nightblade leeching strikes was changed to give less, and etc. This is just scratching the surface of what was changed. There is no way that your build came out of this patch completely unscathed.

As I originally stated, the information is old, but the build and rotation are still sound enough to serve as the basis for any hybrid build. This particular build has cleared everything Pre-Morrowind with the exception of HM VMOL and posted a 530k VMA score w/ Flawless Conqueror. This build simply had no sustain issues by itself, much less with raid buffs at the time of it's finalization. The consumption rates are simply too low to make a significant DPS difference with what I've read IRT the changes made to sustain.

With that said, it needs to be adjusted to fit into the current playstyle. Just not by me.

There is no more cost reduction in the CP tree, the recovery was from CP tress was cut by half. Recovery and cost reduction from armor sets was cut in half as well. Along with a number of other changes to recovery and cost reduction passives and skills from every skill line that had them. The changes were extensive and no build was untouched, yours included.

If you haven't got the point yet, there was a major overhaul to sustain. So you saying that the build should still be fine, without even testing it, is absolutely wrong. Whatever you use to be able to do on the toon doesn't matter now because things have changed, and without you testing your build on a dummy, we'll never know what it is capable now.

I didn't have sustain issues on my mag sorc before the nerf and could pull ~30k dps, unbuffed. I could barely pull ~18k dps right after patch with the same armor and rotation. With some adjustments to my armor and rotation I could pull ~22k again. I still have major sustain issues now that I didn't have before. If I cared enough I could probably start pulling the 30k dps again, but I don't, I'd rather tank or heal.

Wait, wait, wait... Consumption rates are simply too low, on your primary resource pool?

To set this up. There is only a 3% stam cost reduction on armor, so I'm just going to ignore that(it's less than 100 on the highest costing skill) Sorcs have no cost reduction that I'm aware of, Nords have no cost reduction. Sorcs no longer have recovery in their passives. Nords never had recovery, and the stam recovery from med armor is only 4%, not worth counting.

Skills in your rotation with their base cost:
Stam Skills: Rapid Strikes(RS) 3.2k, Twin Slashes(TS) 1.2k, rearming trap(RT) 3.4k
Mag skills: Boundless storm 3.9k(BS) Liquid Lightning(LL) 3.4k, Elemental blockade(EB) 2.9k

Your recovery estimate adjusted for the new patch: ~800 stam recovery and ~800 mag recovery. I admit that these are on the low side, but it wouldn't matter that much if I increased it to 1000(500/s instead of 400/s).

Total resources are 30k stam and 20k mag.

Now, those numbers plugged into the rotation you provided on your build.

BS 3.9 > LL 3.4 > EB 2.9 > swap RS 3.2 > RT 3.4 > RS 3.2 > TS 1.2 > RS 3.2 > Loop

Just on this part of the rotation you've expended 10k mag, 14k stam. That is half of your resources. It's been ~10 seconds so you've regained ~4k mag and ~4k stam from your recovery.

LL 3.4 > EB 2.9 > swap RS 3.2 > RT 3.4 > RS 3.2 > TS 1.2 > RS 3.2 > Loop

Next part another 6.3k Mag and 14k stam. It's also been another ~10 seconds so you've regained ~4k mag and ~4k stam.

Net loss has been 16.3k mag and 28k stam. Net gain has been ~8k Mag and ~8k stam

So you're sitting at ~10k stam and ~12k mag at the end of the second rotation. You don't have enough stam for the next rotation, and barely enough mag.

Even if your stam/mag recover was sitting at 1k, that would be an extra 1k Stam/Mag Hell, if I fudged the numbers a bit and tried to give you the cost reduction, that would be another 1k stam. Heavy attacking once in the rotation would be ~2k per, so another ~4k. After those adjustments, you're sitting at ~16k stam and ~13k mag.

BS 3.9 > LL 3.4 > EB 2.9 > swap RS 3.2 > RT 3.4 > RS 3.2 > TS 1.2 > RS 3.2 > Loop

Last leg of the journey. You've expended 10k mag and 13.5k stamina. It's been ~10 seocnds so ~5k mag and ~5k stam(using adj numbers). Your heavy attack restored ~2k Stam.

Final numbers! You're sitting at ~8k mag and ~9.5k stam. You've been fighting for a total of ~30 seconds. Which means you would have only been able to use 1 potion.

Regardless, both of your resources are almost dry. You would have to be sitting at least 2k stam recovery to not need to use pots for stam; 1.6k mag recovery to not need mag pots. Neither of which can be achieved unless you are built specifically towards that. So what was that about not needing stam pots?

Also, this is just assuming that the rotation you were running had good timing. It should take ~10 seconds from the start of the rotation(dropping LL) to bar swapping back to reapply LL.

In this patch, if you want to hybrid, expect to chug tri-pots.

P.S. You frustrated me enough that I spent way too long working those numbers and making sure I didn't miss a hidden regen or cost reduction. I didn't.

P.P.S. Please stop trying to convince me(and others) that your build is still fine when it's not. Your past achievements mean nothing when there has been a major overhaul to the game, one that fundamentally changes how the game is played. Especially when you're not interested in playing the game.

EDIT: One more thing, pre-nerf you could have ~15% cost reduction without even trying. that's 5x the reduction that I had figured into the rotation. So, It was ~500 total for the rotation post nerf. Pre-nerf it was probably ~2.5k which means your pre-nerf number would have been ~17k on the 3rd rotation. Your build worked before, but it can't work now.

You seem to conveniently and continously gloss over the fact I have repeteadly stated that the rotation will need to be adjusted - just like everyone else's rotation adjusted. RS barely does more damage than a fully charged heavy, so perhaps swap out the two unecessary RS's for a heavy? I don't know, lets find out. The rotation is 11 seconds in total meaning there is a 2 second downtime on Blockade (1 sec cast to impact time) to begin with.

LL - 4k magicka
Ele Blockade - 3k Magicka
Crit Surge/Lightning Form - 4k Magicka (they are alternated)

You do not expend more than 11k magicka during a standard rotation currently on live.

Base regen is ~880 IIRC. Add CP, major mag resource recov and you should be sitting at about 1k magicka regen recovery. That's 500 per second, thus we naturally regen 5.5k of our expended 11k during the standard rotation period. Ele drain will replenish a whopping 3300 magicka during that time bringing us to 8800. Add in potion for another 175 regen. That's a net expenditure of 2k per rotation on what should be a 25k pool w/ a Warhorn. I fail to see how this is build crushing.

Stamina would be significantly less -

Stam Regen is slightly higher than 1100.
Adjust primary rotation to be RS - Trap - Heavy - TS - Heavy - RS for a net consumption of ~5.3k stamina. You regen 5.5k during the rotation time. RS barely does more than a fully charged heavy with the new patch and it certainly doesn't do more on a perpetually offbalanced target like a dummy.

These problems, I'm not seeing them.