(Old) Should There be a Debuff similar in function to Defile, that Reduces Damage Shield Strength?

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@leepalmer95

If you wish to continue this particular vein of this discussion, please message me (as it is off-topic). But in the end-game this is where I stand:

CP 547
Vet HM SO (Stamblade)
Vet HRC (NB Tank/MagDK)
Vet AA (Stamblade/MagDK)
nHoF (Stamblade)
vMSA completed a few times, got lucky with drops (Precise Daggers) and haven't cared to run for Flawless (got close once by accident)
Still need to do Vet Dragonstar
8 Characters, 5 at 50, 4 of Which see regular use, 1 being the main.
Stamblade (34 Days, 8 hrs, Alliance War Grade 11)
MagSorc (4 Days, 18 hrs, Alliance War Grade 10)
MagDK( 4 Days, 3 hrs, Alliance War Grade 3)
NBTank( 3 Days, 9 hrs)

As you can see I don't have knowledge of all aspects of the game, which is why I'm glad that people chime in and point out flaws in my reasoning. Because of this (and because I've other things that I need to address IRL), I'll generally post an idea, and then build off of it via the feedback it receives on the forums. That's why many of my posts are just that, ideas. They've yet to be built upon, so they are change for the sake of change at that point.

Which to me, honestly isn't a bad thing. changing how the base combat mechanics work act as a way to add in new content to the game that isn't item/gear regrinding, but adding in new ways for the player to interact with one another and world enemies. Increasing replayability for old players of the game, while increasing the horizontal depth for new and old players alike. Treating shields a bit like how they treat Healing would allow them to expand upon the current system that they've got implemented.

Oblivion Damage yes, works on sorc shields, but it isn't exclusive to shields. It works wonders on all low health players. Does that not seem a little problematic to you? Similar to how the current Proc Sets work? Essentially 'Free Damage' with no restrictions in this case. I mean hell, the oblivion damage enchantment itself is bugged currently. The Internal Cooldown isn't reduced by the infused enchantment. If it were, you'd see a lot more cancerous builds in PvP.

Also, adding this to sorc shields would allow for future implementation of shields that can be group focused (and are non ultimate, See Alliance War, Support, Barrier), allowing further customization of shield type spells and sets.

DRXHarbinger · June 2017

Leave it as it is

Why is it always about sorcs with this forum? They are not the only one that can spam shields. Harness is actually way more useful with the magika return over ward IMO.

Kay1 · June 2017

I don't care

I am the only one in this whole community who thinks Sorcs are just *** besides having shields?

I don't remember struggling against one, most predictable class in this game

idk · June 2017

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@leepalmer95

If you wish to continue this particular vein of this discussion, please message me (as it is off-topic). But in the end-game this is where I stand:
CP 547
Vet HM SO (Stamblade)
Vet HRC (NB Tank/MagDK)
Vet AA (Stamblade/MagDK)
nHoF (Stamblade)
vMSA completed a few times, got lucky with drops (Precise Daggers) and haven't cared to run for Flawless (got close once by accident)
Still need to do Vet Dragonstar
8 Characters, 5 at 50, 4 of Which see regular use, 1 being the main.
Stamblade (34 Days, 8 hrs, Alliance War Grade 11)
MagSorc (4 Days, 18 hrs, Alliance War Grade 10)
MagDK( 4 Days, 3 hrs, Alliance War Grade 3)
NBTank( 3 Days, 9 hrs)

As you can see I don't have knowledge of all aspects of the game, which is why I'm glad that people chime in and point out flaws in my reasoning. Because of this (and because I've other things that I need to address IRL), I'll generally post an idea, and then build off of it via the feedback it receives on the forums. That's why many of my posts are just that, ideas. They've yet to be built upon, so they are change for the sake of change at that point.

Which to me, honestly isn't a bad thing. changing how the base combat mechanics work act as a way to add in new content to the game that isn't item/gear regrinding, but adding in new ways for the player to interact with one another and world enemies. Increasing replayability for old players of the game, while increasing the horizontal depth for new and old players alike. Treating shields a bit like how they treat Healing would allow them to expand upon the current system that they've got implemented.

Oblivion Damage yes, works on sorc shields, but it isn't exclusive to shields. It works wonders on all low health players. Does that not seem a little problematic to you? Similar to how the current Proc Sets work? Essentially 'Free Damage' with no restrictions in this case. I mean hell, the oblivion damage enchantment itself is bugged currently. The Internal Cooldown isn't reduced by the infused enchantment. If it were, you'd see a lot more cancerous builds in PvP.

Also, adding this to sorc shields would allow for future implementation of shields that can be group focused (and are non ultimate, See Alliance War, Support, Barrier), allowing further customization of shield type spells and sets.

Even you admit you lack knowledge. You fail to see the big picture of how various aspects of the game work which means you cannot see how one change can affect the game. This comment further supports that comment and leads to why your suggestions lack broad support from experienced players.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

When have I ever said that I'm all-knowing? Of course I lack knowledge. However, saying that a suggestion is poor while not providing a counter argument doesn't really get anywhere. Care to describe the grand picture that I'm ignoring? That you've yet to describe.

From my experience so far this change would be good. Adding in Minor/Major Shielding Buffs/Debuffs would add to build diversity in the game.

Inarre · June 2017

Leave it as it is

Resource regen was a nerf to shield stacking. You can already counter shields through pressure and cp.

idk · June 2017

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

When have I ever said that I'm all-knowing? Of course I lack knowledge. However, saying that a suggestion is poor while not providing a counter argument doesn't really get anywhere. Care to describe the grand picture that I'm ignoring? That you've yet to describe.

From my experience so far this change would be good. Adding in Minor/Major Shielding Buffs/Debuffs would add to build diversity in the game.

I wasn't indicating you thought you knew everything but merely stating that without broad knowledge its challenging to see how a change effects balance.

Further, for most of us, our experience is limited and the forums are filled with threads from people who think skills should be changed, mostly nerfed, merely because they don't know how to fight against things. In their experience the skill seems OP even when it's not.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

I'm not trying to say that shields in general are overpowered. (cept maybe Hardened Ward, the scaling on that is absurd compared to others).

What I'd love to do is make shields more varied. Why don't shields stack with Spell Damage like Healing spells? Is it because stacking power that also allows for better defensive scaling on shields would be broken AF?

Could be Shields that scale better with Spell Power would have short durations but higher scalings, and shields that scale with max magicka would have longer durations but lower scalings, or something like that.

While it would need a lot of testing, I think that using these Buffs/Debuffs could act as checks and balances.

josiahva · June 2017

Leave it as it is

The only way I would agree to that is if you add physical and spell resist to my shields. I know you are having a hard time in PvP against sorcs...but I dont care, I am not a sorc. If you want to build against shield spamming sorcs, use the shieldbreaker set and oblivion enchants...voila! No need for nerfs.

MaxwellC · June 2017

Other

Just remove bastion and shattering blows and everything will be fine.

idk · June 2017

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

I'm not trying to say that shields in general are overpowered. (cept maybe Hardened Ward, the scaling on that is absurd compared to others).

What I'd love to do is make shields more varied. Why don't shields stack with Spell Damage like Healing spells? Is it because stacking power that also allows for better defensive scaling on shields would be broken AF?

Could be Shields that scale better with Spell Power would have short durations but higher scalings, and shields that scale with max magicka would have longer durations but lower scalings, or something like that.

While it would need a lot of testing, I think that using these Buffs/Debuffs could act as checks and balances.

This topic has nothing to do with how shields scale or variations. Besides, each shield has variations. Non are identical. Further, there is no reason to change the formulas to allow shields to stack off spell damage. Non except for merely wanting to change something for the hell of it.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

It does have a part in how shields scale, it's part of the 'bigger picture' that you're on about but wont say anything about. If these buffs/debuffs were introduced, how would it impact the currently existing skill shields, proc shields?
Edit: In particular if they made any of the proc set shields scale with max magicka, as part of the proc set rebalance.

idk · June 2017

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

It does have a part in how shields scale, it's part of the 'bigger picture' that you're on about but wont say anything about. If these buffs/debuffs were introduced, how would it impact the currently existing skill shields, proc shields?

Your not able to defend/justify your suggestion as something the game needs yet you want to discuss how it would effect the shields?

No thanks.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Dear god you're dense man. Why does the game need DLC? why does the game need three different types of elemental damage? To add in variety and options. They can leave it as it is and it's still a game. they can add in these buffs/debuffs and allow for more creative shield oriented builds / shield breaking builds much like they have defile sets against health and heal stacking builds. THE ARGUMENT IS THAT IT ADDS MORE HORIZONTAL DEPTH TO THE GAME. You claim that it's a poor decision but all your argument against it is that I'm not seeing the 'bigger picture'. You provide no details as to where it could be gamebreaking or overperforming! How are you not able to see....

Aha, very clever there. kudos to you. But anyway, care to enlighten me as to what this is lacking?

idk · June 2017

Leave it as it is

Lol. Seriously?

DLC to keep players interest.

You want change for the sake of change it seems. You suggest these changes daily yet, especially in this case, you cannot justify the change other than in the most simplistic manner.

While it may not always seem to be, devs don't just say let's make this change because it'll be cool. however, thas what your doing.

Edit: @Avran_Sylt the first thing your idea is lacking is a reason. More importantly you cannot justify the need nor explain how it would affect balance. All that is required. Otherwise it's just change for the sake of it. In other word logic and reasoning need to be applied.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

DLC is a change of the base game for player interest (new storylines/sets)

Minor/Major Shield Buffs/Debuffs is a change of the base game for player interest (more build options/ sets/ new mechanics)

There's your base reason.

If you want a simple need it's because it'll garner player interest. Firstly by introducing a new debuff that can be used against other players in PvP. This could also introduce new sets that make use of these minor/major buffs/debuffs. Once again, more sets = more player interest if the sets are balanced well since instead of being rehashes of current sets, they add in something new. Think of it like the introduction of Minor/Major Slayer/Aegis. Balance wise, if you use a little critical thinking, it means that targets debuffed with this will have less prolonged survivability if they bank on one defensive mechanism, in this case that mechanism being a damage shield, with successive casts being less effective Similar to how Minor/Major Defile works to reduce the prolonged survivability of healing users by reducing the effectiveness of successive casts. that is the simple logic and reasoning that you seem unable to even grasp.

idk · June 2017

Leave it as it is

The DLC is not a change to the base game. No DLC has affected the base game. You may be confusing an update that happens to include a DLC as being the same. Updates come every quarter. DLCs clearly do not.

Even changes in updates are not on a whim. Most of your ideas are. Not saying you should stop thinking of things but you should certainly not expect support, especially when you cannot justify the need for it.

Garner player interest? Your idea has not garnered interest.

Inarre · June 2017

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

DLC is a change of the base game for player interest (new storylines/sets)

Minor/Major Shield Buffs/Debuffs is a change of the base game for player interest (more build options/ sets/ new mechanics)

There's your base reason.

If you want a simple need it's because it'll garner player interest. Firstly by introducing a new debuff that can be used against other players in PvP. This could also introduce new sets that make use of these minor/major buffs/debuffs. Once again, more sets = more player interest if the sets are balanced well since instead of being rehashes of current sets, they add in something new. Think of it like the introduction of Minor/Major Slayer/Aegis. Balance wise, if you use a little critical thinking, it means that targets debuffed with this will have less prolonged survivability if they bank on one defensive mechanism, in this case that mechanism being a damage shield, with successive casts being less effective Similar to how Minor/Major Defile works to reduce the prolonged survivability of healing users by reducing the effectiveness of successive casts. that is the simple logic and reasoning that you seem unable to even grasp.

Dlc doesnt change base game...

Sometimes base game nerfs or buffs are released in the same updates as dlc, but dlc content is always additional content released to keep players playing and does not change the base game. (dlc: think: new areas, new quests, new features.... Base game think: basic features like crafting, main storyline quests, mechanics)

What you are suggesting is a change to the game mechanics which is NOT dlc. If it were, only people who bought dlc would have access to the templar nerfs and everyone who didnt buy it would be rolling around with major mending...

There is no need to eff with game balance to get players interest. Thats what dlc is for. Game balance is for making sure that everyone can enjoy the game fairly and equally.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO @Inarre

Admittedly I went overboard on the DLC, In this case, 'base game' paints a larger picture. Think what is considered BiS, Selling of Tel Var, Overworld Drops in DLC Zones and all the player social interactions (trading motifs/build guides in this instance). All DLC has an impact in some form on that front, even if the player doesn't purchase the DLC. Much too broad to fit in this context, as adding in buffs/debuffs is a much narrower topic.

However, adding in new game mechanics would indeed create interest for some players. Many, depending on what kind of mechanic is introduced (think new weapon types).

idk · June 2017

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO @Inarre
However, adding in new game mechanics would indeed create interest for some players. Many, depending on what kind of mechanic is introduced (think new weapon types).

Again, adding in a new game mechanics for the sake of doing it is pointless. You have not justified it's need nor have you even considered it's impact on the game. You just think it would be cool to add and think someone will like it.

Lord_Eomer · June 2017

Leave it as it is

Some crazy stam peeps insanely wanted mag builds nerf!

Barbaran · June 2017

Leave it as it is

there is cp availiable to deal more damage on shields.
ive said this a million times, if you want weaker shields or able to crit them then shuffle needs a huge nerf.
sorcs get hit with everything you throw at them because they dont have a passive dodge. so shield is our shuffle. without a shield a sorc melts instantly.
sircs spend 3kish magick every 6 seconds to stay alive ( 7kish to stack harness, 10k ish to put on ward), stam uses 3-4k every 20 secs ish for shuffle, or 80% less with unchained passive.
for every stam player complaining about shields there are 2 magicka players complaining about shuffle.

idk · June 2017

Leave it as it is

Barbaran wrote: »

there is cp availiable to deal more damage on shields.
ive said this a million times, if you want weaker shields or able to crit them then shuffle needs a huge nerf.
sorcs get hit with everything you throw at them because they dont have a passive dodge. so shield is our shuffle. without a shield a sorc melts instantly.
sircs spend 3kish magick every 6 seconds to stay alive ( 7kish to stack harness, 10k ish to put on ward), stam uses 3-4k every 20 secs ish for shuffle, or 80% less with unchained passive.
for every stam player complaining about shields there are 2 magicka players complaining about shuffle.

You have touched on part of the issue in that OP does not even consider balance.

Kalante · June 2017

It could be interesting

YES PLEASE!! Make them feel what stamina feels when we lose half our survival and if you are a stam nb you basically have zero defense other than cloak that half time does not even work LOL!. The entire magicka aspect should be reworked, they are literally the best at everything, one of them being super tanky while still maintaining amazing dps. You can not debate me on this because all the people that know how to play this game know it's true.

Thogard · June 2017

This already exists. They're called proc sets

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO @Barbaran

Wait, Minor/Major Evasion doesn't allow the user to dodge when they have a damage shield up?

Minor/Major Protection functions normally on Damage shields, shouldn't Evasion work just the same?

idk · June 2017

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO @Barbaran

Wait, Minor/Major Evasion doesn't allow the user to dodge when they have a damage shield up?

Minor/Major Protection functions normally on Damage shields, shouldn't Evasion work just the same?

I merely spoke of balance.

Magıc · June 2017

Leave it as it is

Shield's are only strong in 1v1 (and even then on a 2.2k WD stamDK I can cut through most mag users shields including sorcs, only the top sorcs on PC EU give me trouble lol), which the game isn't balanced around anyway so who cares about 1v1s?

As soon as a magicka user, even sorcs, get outnumbered, shields get cut down so quickly, especially now that a lot of mag sorcs are dropping harness, and magblades aren't even using harness anymore instead running HoT builds because harness is so weak.

If people have issues cutting a sorc shield, or a mag users shield down in any way, then it's either a build issue or L2P issue.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Balance, but also a game mechanic which itself isn't stated clearly in the game at all. And something which gave me a veeeeery interesting idea. You should've shared this sooner.

laksikus · June 2017

It could be interesting

An interesting idea, but i think15/30% would be over the top. Make it 8/15 or something