(Old) Should There be a Debuff similar in function to Defile, that Reduces Damage Shield Strength?

Avran_Sylt

Please see this thread for a more up to date version: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/356450/remove-oblivion-damage-from-the-game-add-in-minor-major-concentration-disruption

For Heal stacking there is Minor and Major Defile, as well as the Befoul CP Star. Meaning players have access to ways that shut down other players who stack the healz. While damage shields (Annulment/Hardened Ward/etc) are not the same things as healing, they do function as a form of handling damage. So, the question is: Should there be Debuffs that reduce the effectiveness of player cast damage shields? This would be in addition to the Shattering Blows CP Star.

I.E: Minor/Major Interference : Reduces the effectiveness of Damage shields by 15%/30%

This in itself would be a little too overpowered, which is why I think there should be sets included in the game that increase the players ability to shield themselves, such as
"Increases the potency of Damage shields by [x]%" set bonuses as well as including Minor/Major Shielding buffs. (Similar to Minor/Major Mending)

This could even allow for the introduction of Damage Shields that scale with Spell Damage as well.

raknorok

Leave it as it is

Please, no more nerfs

leepalmer95

Leave it as it is

No..

Shields aren't that strong... theres already a cp star to counter bastion.

Shields can be annoying 1v1 but thats it.

Thats like saying can you have a debuff to does it to blocking/ dodging etc...


Another not so well though't out idea, another day another bad poll i see...

SFDB

I'm noticing a theme here.

Vipstaakki

It could be interesting

The sorcs need to be nerfed!

Ankael07

Leave it as it is

If you dont like shield stacking propose something to target stackers and not those who only use 1 shield (if there is any left at this point)

Solariken

It could be interesting

Sounds fine to me, if they introduce a new debuff they should introduce a new mirror buff.

leepalmer95

Leave it as it is

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds fine to me, if they introduce a new debuff they should introduce a new mirror buff.

What would that achieve in the end though?

Gilvoth

It could be interesting

would need to be tested.
if it does in-fact break shield stacking, then "yes" i'm all for it.

idk

Leave it as it is

Simply no. Explanation was not requested, not that it needs it when looking at the big picture in PvP and balance.

Edit: with the multitude of changes you have suggested I question if you actually enjoy this game since it seems you do not like the way it plays.

ValkynSketha

Oblivion damage

SilverWF

Leave it as it is

No, thx.
At least, until they'll fix lag problems in the Cyro and completely remove that melee procfest aka Viper, Selene, Velidreth etc. Take it as "never"

Avran_Sylt

ValkynSketha wrote: »

Oblivion damage

Honestly, I don't think Oblivion damage should bypass Damage Shields. Regular Blocking sure, but a magick based element that isn't countered by any means? That seems like poor design. Have that remain as a tank killer, the 'mace' of elemental damage. Not a complete bypass. Hell, it could even proc Minor Interference as an elemental Proc

idk

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

ValkynSketha wrote: »

Oblivion damage

Honestly, I don't think Oblivion damage should bypass Damage Shields. Regular Blocking sure, but a magick based element that isn't countered by any means? That seems like poor design. Have that remain as a tank killer, the 'mace' of elemental damage. Not a complete bypass. Hell, it could even proc Minor Interference as an elemental Proc

It is unresistable damage. Nothing stops it. So it should go through shields. It is one of several counters. Makes sense. Has worked well for over 3 years and does not need to be changed.

Edit: BTW, Oblivion is a powerful place. It is clearly intended to have powerful properties. It does not make sense to state something powerful should not be ale to bypass damage shields yet magicka shields should take extra damage from lightning just does not compute.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Leave it as it is

No. Enough of the freaking nerfs already.

Avran_Sylt

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

ValkynSketha wrote: »

Oblivion damage

Honestly, I don't think Oblivion damage should bypass Damage Shields. Regular Blocking sure, but a magick based element that isn't countered by any means? That seems like poor design. Have that remain as a tank killer, the 'mace' of elemental damage. Not a complete bypass. Hell, it could even proc Minor Interference as an elemental Proc

It is unresistable damage. Nothing stops it. So it should go through shields. It is one of several counters. Makes sense. Has worked well for over 3 years and does not need to be changed.

Edit: BTW, Oblivion is a powerful place. It is clearly intended to have powerful properties. It does not make sense to state something powerful should not be ale to bypass damage shields yet magicka shields should take extra damage from lightning just does not compute.

The question is though, is unresistable (bypass everything) the right way to counter things such as damage shields in particular? If a shield scales with health, how exactly does oblivion damage counter that? the player would still have an abnormally large health pool. The Knight Slayer set is what i'm assuming would be your answer. But that is a 5pc set bonus, and nothing innate to a skill or elemental effect. And if skills were allowed to deal Oblivion damage... Well that'd be a whole ***-storm in and of itself with Oblivion bypassing everything.

Also, on the note of it "being powerful, nothing stops it" how then are we able to control, and shape it through the use of runes? Does that not mean that it can be redirected? Especially if magicka itself is needed to redirect it.

malcolmhagger

Leave it as it is

is this another 'nerf sorc' post in disguise? theres already counters to shield (CP, armor, enchantments) why u being greedy

Avran_Sylt

@malcolmhagger

A nerf and a buff. If you read the whole thing it also goes into adding Minor/Major buffs to shield power similar to Minor/Major Mending as well as %shield power set bonuses similar in fashion to the %healing done.

malcolmhagger

Leave it as it is

@Avran_Sylt

i read that part and my response is the same as what I voted. just leave it as it is. those things would be complicating things for a small benefit but, that is just my opinion tho

idk

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

ValkynSketha wrote: »

Oblivion damage

Honestly, I don't think Oblivion damage should bypass Damage Shields. Regular Blocking sure, but a magick based element that isn't countered by any means? That seems like poor design. Have that remain as a tank killer, the 'mace' of elemental damage. Not a complete bypass. Hell, it could even proc Minor Interference as an elemental Proc

It is unresistable damage. Nothing stops it. So it should go through shields. It is one of several counters. Makes sense. Has worked well for over 3 years and does not need to be changed.

Edit: BTW, Oblivion is a powerful place. It is clearly intended to have powerful properties. It does not make sense to state something powerful should not be ale to bypass damage shields yet magicka shields should take extra damage from lightning just does not compute.

The question is though, is unresistable (bypass everything) the right way to counter things such as damage shields in particular? If a shield scales with health, how exactly does oblivion damage counter that? the player would still have an abnormally large health pool. The Knight Slayer set is what i'm assuming would be your answer. But that is a 5pc set bonus, and nothing innate to a skill or elemental effect. And if skills were allowed to deal Oblivion damage... Well that'd be a whole ***-storm in and of itself with Oblivion bypassing everything.

Also, on the note of it "being powerful, nothing stops it" how then are we able to control, and shape it through the use of runes? Does that not mean that it can be redirected? Especially if magicka itself is needed to redirect it.

The answer is unresistable bypasses everything and in part it is a counter to damage shields. Shields that scale of health are still shields.

There is not a lot of sources of irresistible damage so the rest of your statement is fairly empty. It is why I say you tend to look at the small picture and fail to see how everything goes together. It is a fault of many of the threads you create.

Solariken

It could be interesting

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds fine to me, if they introduce a new debuff they should introduce a new mirror buff.

What would that achieve in the end though?

Neither would be available at 100% uptime. The boon would need to be built for at a sacrifice of something else. The bane could be added to existing select debuff-focused abilities.

Avran_Sylt

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

ValkynSketha wrote: »

Oblivion damage

Honestly, I don't think Oblivion damage should bypass Damage Shields. Regular Blocking sure, but a magick based element that isn't countered by any means? That seems like poor design. Have that remain as a tank killer, the 'mace' of elemental damage. Not a complete bypass. Hell, it could even proc Minor Interference as an elemental Proc

It is unresistable damage. Nothing stops it. So it should go through shields. It is one of several counters. Makes sense. Has worked well for over 3 years and does not need to be changed.

Edit: BTW, Oblivion is a powerful place. It is clearly intended to have powerful properties. It does not make sense to state something powerful should not be ale to bypass damage shields yet magicka shields should take extra damage from lightning just does not compute.

The question is though, is unresistable (bypass everything) the right way to counter things such as damage shields in particular? If a shield scales with health, how exactly does oblivion damage counter that? the player would still have an abnormally large health pool. The Knight Slayer set is what i'm assuming would be your answer. But that is a 5pc set bonus, and nothing innate to a skill or elemental effect. And if skills were allowed to deal Oblivion damage... Well that'd be a whole ***-storm in and of itself with Oblivion bypassing everything.

Also, on the note of it "being powerful, nothing stops it" how then are we able to control, and shape it through the use of runes? Does that not mean that it can be redirected? Especially if magicka itself is needed to redirect it.

The answer is unresistable bypasses everything and in part it is a counter to damage shields. Shields that scale of health are still shields.

There is not a lot of sources of irresistible damage so the rest of your statement is fairly empty. It is why I say you tend to look at the small picture and fail to see how everything goes together. It is a fault of many of the threads you create.

In this case, it is a small picture. There are only 3 sources of Oblivion Damage in the game. A Weapon Enchantment, and Two sets. One Light, and one Medium. If the sorc is running any sort of heal on themselves, they can counter these easily with one healing skill. Currently there are no counters to damage shields apart from CP (which is disabled in many PvP areas), just ways to avoid them with small amounts of damage (Oblivion Damage). Requiring the player to sacrifice at least one set.

idk

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

ValkynSketha wrote: »

Oblivion damage

Honestly, I don't think Oblivion damage should bypass Damage Shields. Regular Blocking sure, but a magick based element that isn't countered by any means? That seems like poor design. Have that remain as a tank killer, the 'mace' of elemental damage. Not a complete bypass. Hell, it could even proc Minor Interference as an elemental Proc

It is unresistable damage. Nothing stops it. So it should go through shields. It is one of several counters. Makes sense. Has worked well for over 3 years and does not need to be changed.

Edit: BTW, Oblivion is a powerful place. It is clearly intended to have powerful properties. It does not make sense to state something powerful should not be ale to bypass damage shields yet magicka shields should take extra damage from lightning just does not compute.

The question is though, is unresistable (bypass everything) the right way to counter things such as damage shields in particular? If a shield scales with health, how exactly does oblivion damage counter that? the player would still have an abnormally large health pool. The Knight Slayer set is what i'm assuming would be your answer. But that is a 5pc set bonus, and nothing innate to a skill or elemental effect. And if skills were allowed to deal Oblivion damage... Well that'd be a whole ***-storm in and of itself with Oblivion bypassing everything.

Also, on the note of it "being powerful, nothing stops it" how then are we able to control, and shape it through the use of runes? Does that not mean that it can be redirected? Especially if magicka itself is needed to redirect it.

The answer is unresistable bypasses everything and in part it is a counter to damage shields. Shields that scale of health are still shields.

There is not a lot of sources of irresistible damage so the rest of your statement is fairly empty. It is why I say you tend to look at the small picture and fail to see how everything goes together. It is a fault of many of the threads you create.

In this case, it is a small picture. There are only 3 sources of Oblivion Damage in the game. A Weapon Enchantment, and Two sets. One Light, and one Medium. If the sorc is running any sort of heal on themselves, they can counter these easily with one healing skill. Currently there are no counters to damage shields apart from CP (which is disabled in many PvP areas), just ways to avoid them with small amounts of damage (Oblivion Damage). Requiring the player to sacrifice at least one set.

Oh no. Even in this reply you fail to see the big picture if you fail to see the counter to shields, especially when you mention them. That is where and why your ideas often have holes in them. I even tell you they are in part the counter to a sorc shielding and you still say their is not counter which is evidence you do not see the forest for the trees.

I will give you a hint that will merely put you into the right direction for only part of the big picture, only part. What is that sorc doing while reapplying shields and healing themselves? There are two parts to the answer and this is only, at best, half of the big picture.

Edit: Also, remember that battle spirit is already one counter to shields, and heals for that matter, Cuts them in half. But that is not the answer.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

... Yeah, they're not doing damage while they're shielding. That's obvious. Meanwhile I can plant a 12K Hardened Ward (after battle spirit reduction) on myself at a cost of only 3K magicka on a mag stacking sorc (Since Hardened Ward scales at a ratio of 0.48 mag per shield point). Which has a chance to proc C Frags instant cast whose damage is vastly increased because of all the mag i'm stacking. I can do all that in under 2 seconds. It's the same damned thing with templars and their instant cast heals, and that got nerfed all to hell.

idk

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

... Yeah, they're not doing damage while they're shielding. That's obvious. Meanwhile I can plant a 12K Hardened Ward (after battle spirit reduction) on myself at a cost of only 3K magicka on a mag stacking sorc (Since Hardened Ward scales at a ratio of 0.48 mag per shield point). Which has a chance to proc C Frags instant cast whose damage is vastly increased because of all the mag i'm stacking. I can do all that in under 2 seconds. It's the same damned thing with templars and their instant cast heals, and that got nerfed all to hell.

Still small picture. I even said there are two parts to the answer. Just to make sure, doing damage is not what I am getting at. I thought you almost got the second but sadly it did not happen.

Also, remember, even the full answer is only part of the full picture. Only part. oh, and BTW, shields were nerfed hard last year. It is highly improbable they will be nerfed again anytime in the foreseeable future since the previous nerf served it's purpose. At least unless someone comes up with a valid argument for such action and I have not seen anything of the such proposed in the forums.

Avran_Sylt

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

... Yeah, they're not doing damage while they're shielding. That's obvious. Meanwhile I can plant a 12K Hardened Ward (after battle spirit reduction) on myself at a cost of only 3K magicka on a mag stacking sorc (Since Hardened Ward scales at a ratio of 0.48 mag per shield point). Which has a chance to proc C Frags instant cast whose damage is vastly increased because of all the mag i'm stacking. I can do all that in under 2 seconds. It's the same damned thing with templars and their instant cast heals, and that got nerfed all to hell.

Still small picture. I even said there are two parts to the answer. Just to make sure, doing damage is not what I am getting at. I thought you almost got the second but sadly it did not happen.

Also, remember, even the full answer is only part of the full picture. Only part. oh, and BTW, shields were nerfed hard last year. It is highly improbable they will be nerfed again anytime in the foreseeable future since the previous nerf served it's purpose. At least unless someone comes up with a valid argument for such action and I have not seen anything of the such proposed in the forums.

Oh yeah, when they reduced the duration of shields to be 6 seconds from 20 (for most). Heh, wonder if they'd consider reverting that and adding in these Minor/Major Buffs.

Hmm, hadn't considered that angle before.

Also, can't say I've got a clue right now what the '2nd' part you're refering too is. But I'll come back to you about it when this thread has been buried, once again acting as a way to bump the post while it still being on topic.

idk

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

... Yeah, they're not doing damage while they're shielding. That's obvious. Meanwhile I can plant a 12K Hardened Ward (after battle spirit reduction) on myself at a cost of only 3K magicka on a mag stacking sorc (Since Hardened Ward scales at a ratio of 0.48 mag per shield point). Which has a chance to proc C Frags instant cast whose damage is vastly increased because of all the mag i'm stacking. I can do all that in under 2 seconds. It's the same damned thing with templars and their instant cast heals, and that got nerfed all to hell.

Still small picture. I even said there are two parts to the answer. Just to make sure, doing damage is not what I am getting at. I thought you almost got the second but sadly it did not happen.

Also, remember, even the full answer is only part of the full picture. Only part. oh, and BTW, shields were nerfed hard last year. It is highly improbable they will be nerfed again anytime in the foreseeable future since the previous nerf served it's purpose. At least unless someone comes up with a valid argument for such action and I have not seen anything of the such proposed in the forums.

Oh yeah, when they reduced the duration of shields to be 6 seconds from 20 (for most). Heh, wonder if they'd consider reverting that and adding in these Minor/Major Buffs.

Hmm, hadn't considered that angle before.

Also, can't say I've got a clue right now what the '2nd' part you're refering too is. But I'll come back to you about it when this thread has been buried, once again acting as a way to bump the post while it still being on topic.

Doubtful they would change it back since it has had the desired effect and your debuff idea does not.

Unless one can see the big picture they are not able to truly see how changes affect combat.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Then enlighten myself, and others, as to what your idea of the big picture is. Might yield something of interest.

Feanor

You know that Shattering Blows is already an option in the CP tree? Anyway, what people like you don't get is that if you take away shield stacking especially Sorcs are left with no defense at all. It's their defensive class signature. You'd have to give them something else instead so they can stay alive in their squishy light Armour. Which then again would lead to people still crying "Sorc OP" because they're too bad to kill anything.

Drummerx04

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

ValkynSketha wrote: »

Oblivion damage

Honestly, I don't think Oblivion damage should bypass Damage Shields. Regular Blocking sure, but a magick based element that isn't countered by any means? That seems like poor design. Have that remain as a tank killer, the 'mace' of elemental damage. Not a complete bypass. Hell, it could even proc Minor Interference as an elemental Proc

It is unresistable damage. Nothing stops it. So it should go through shields. It is one of several counters. Makes sense. Has worked well for over 3 years and does not need to be changed.

Edit: BTW, Oblivion is a powerful place. It is clearly intended to have powerful properties. It does not make sense to state something powerful should not be ale to bypass damage shields yet magicka shields should take extra damage from lightning just does not compute.

The question is though, is unresistable (bypass everything) the right way to counter things such as damage shields in particular? If a shield scales with health, how exactly does oblivion damage counter that? the player would still have an abnormally large health pool. The Knight Slayer set is what i'm assuming would be your answer. But that is a 5pc set bonus, and nothing innate to a skill or elemental effect. And if skills were allowed to deal Oblivion damage... Well that'd be a whole ***-storm in and of itself with Oblivion bypassing everything.

Also, on the note of it "being powerful, nothing stops it" how then are we able to control, and shape it through the use of runes? Does that not mean that it can be redirected? Especially if magicka itself is needed to redirect it.

The answer is unresistable bypasses everything and in part it is a counter to damage shields. Shields that scale of health are still shields.

There is not a lot of sources of irresistible damage so the rest of your statement is fairly empty. It is why I say you tend to look at the small picture and fail to see how everything goes together. It is a fault of many of the threads you create.

In this case, it is a small picture. There are only 3 sources of Oblivion Damage in the game. A Weapon Enchantment, and Two sets. One Light, and one Medium. If the sorc is running any sort of heal on themselves, they can counter these easily with one healing skill. Currently there are no counters to damage shields apart from CP (which is disabled in many PvP areas), just ways to avoid them with small amounts of damage (Oblivion Damage). Requiring the player to sacrifice at least one set.

The shield damage CP is not available in noCP, but neither is bastion... and also you are missing 20% max magicka. My hardened ward is around 11k in CP and 7k in noCP. Your argument is therefore a little iffy.

Really, I can't understand why so many people think that shield stacking sorcs are somehow worse than templars running skoria and healing themselves from 25% to full in one cast of BoL, or DK's that can tank 5+ people while dealing a steady stream of dots and fossilizing, rooting and generally applying a lot of pressure, or cloak causing all healing ticks to crit (that's still a thing right?).

Sorcs are powerful, sure, but surely you've seen other classes cause as much trouble right? I mean who hasn't seen AD stamblades for instance dodgerolling away with impunity while literally 30 pugs run after them only to fail to secure the kill...

So that's okay, but shields are a problem?

So to answer the poll, NO we do not need another tool to empower zergs and lets be real here. If you also introduce a major/minor buff to shields, the 1vX sorcs are going to run that and then shields really will be OP broken, because most people probably won't have the debuff slotted. Which class would have access to the debuffs/buff?

Oh and while we are on it, defile affects shield stackers too... what do you think happens when damage gets through the shields? we need to heal it and that can be defiled.

leepalmer95

Leave it as it is

@Avran_Sylt

I'm just gonna ask a few things because your poll spamming is kind of annoying.

How far into end game are you?
How many characters have you got?
Whats your cp?
Whats your play time or alliance rank on your characters
Done any end game pve? Msa, dsa, vet trials?


Because i'm seeing a lot of your posts lack context, your throwing out random suggestions which have no real reason too happen because they aren't though't out. It's like your suggesting changes for the sake of it Your reply's to threads show a lack of knowledge in areas and you also don't expand on them or give reasons why?

Like the oblivion dmg enchant. 1.9k every 4s is powerful even on sorc shields, it lets you finish sorc's off when your burst them to very low hp but they get a shields off. It lets you set up burst because if your deal damage and your enchant procs a few times thats less hp you need to burst when you finish setting it up. Its a very helpful enchant vs sorc shields.

Also why would you suggest this for sorc shields? Sorcs shields are strong in 1v1 but not impossible to deal with but after that its easy to burst a sorc.

Any 2 half good players will destroy a sorc in a 2v1 because their shields just can't take it anymore.