(Old) Should There be a Debuff similar in function to Defile, that Reduces Damage Shield Strength?

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

What's balanced about a Major Buff that costs 4K stamina for full effectiveness, which a Mag user can easily dip into, versus a stamina user who has no access to full on damage mitigation via shields since stamina doesn't scale to any kind of shield?

idk

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

What's balanced about a Major Buff that costs 4K stamina for full effectiveness, which a Mag user can easily dip into, versus a stamina user who has no access to full on damage mitigation via shields since stamina doesn't scale to any kind of shield?

4k? You do not play stamina. Full medium armor and evasion has a cost of 3.3k to have 15% of damage miss them, well some skills cannot miss. Check the cost of harness magicka which is the only magicka based shield available to 4 classes and consider the damage it absorbs in Cyrodiil.

That is just the beginning of what is available to a stam character. Of course we do not need to talk about heals since it is really only one class that would run with a solid heal on their bar, ok, maybe two classes now.

Big picture when considering changes.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Riiiight, so stamina users get to save 700 stamina when using Evasion at the full effectiveness. Meanwhile shields are not a flat bonus and require heavy magicka input to be effective, fortunately enough for mag users going heavy into magicka also increases all of their other damaging skills as well, and a variety of healing skills, which, by the way, can be used to counter the oblivion damage procs.

Don't get sidetracked by such a small difference in ability cost, big picture.

Barbaran

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO @Barbaran

Wait, Minor/Major Evasion doesn't allow the user to dodge when they have a damage shield up?

Minor/Major Protection functions normally on Damage shields, shouldn't Evasion work just the same?

sure you can use shuffle and shields. but what magic build can afford to cast it every 20 secs like a stsm build. and what magic build can afford 130 pts into hardy and ele defender to get unchained. just like there are damage shields avaliable for stam users, like bone shield. doesnt mean it makes sense to use them.
magic builds have a hard enough time with only having 14k stam to break free, throw in the occasional roll dodge and general movement ( your still gonna need to sprint a little from time to time against certain opponents) , let alone use 1/3 of your stam for shuffle.
3-4k stam is alot considering what you need it for in a magic build mixed with the lack of regen.
like telling a regular stamplar that if he wants a shield he should just slot blazing shield to spam and quit complaining. doesnt make sense.
stam have theyre form of damage mitigation and magicka has theres. both equally as annoying, i play both, i like to beleive i can be unbiased enough to realize both shields and evasion are both as effective in theyre own way

Avran_Sylt

Barbaran wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO @Barbaran

Wait, Minor/Major Evasion doesn't allow the user to dodge when they have a damage shield up?

Minor/Major Protection functions normally on Damage shields, shouldn't Evasion work just the same?

sure you can use shuffle and shields. but what magic build can afford to cast it every 20 secs like a stsm build. and what magic build can afford 130 pts into hardy and ele defender to get unchained. just like there are damage shields avaliable for stam users, like bone shield. doesnt mean it makes sense to use them.
magic builds have a hard enough time with only having 14k stam to break free, throw in the occasional roll dodge and general movement ( your still gonna need to sprint a little from time to time against certain opponents) , let alone use 1/3 of your stam for shuffle.
3-4k stam is alot considering what you need it for in a magic build mixed with the lack of regen.
like telling a regular stamplar that if he wants a shield he should just slot blazing shield to spam and quit complaining. doesnt make sense.
stam have theyre form of damage mitigation and magicka has theres. both equally as annoying, i play both, i like to beleive i can be unbiased enough to realize both shields and evasion are both as effective in theyre own way

Cept there's a thing called immovability pots. pop one of those, and you can pop major evasion easy via shuffle since you won't have to worry about stuns.

In this case, while mage users won't have full uptime on it, they'll have the full effect for a set duration. if you're not mag specced shields will always be sub-par.

Barbaran

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Barbaran wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO @Barbaran

Wait, Minor/Major Evasion doesn't allow the user to dodge when they have a damage shield up?

Minor/Major Protection functions normally on Damage shields, shouldn't Evasion work just the same?

sure you can use shuffle and shields. but what magic build can afford to cast it every 20 secs like a stsm build. and what magic build can afford 130 pts into hardy and ele defender to get unchained. just like there are damage shields avaliable for stam users, like bone shield. doesnt mean it makes sense to use them.
magic builds have a hard enough time with only having 14k stam to break free, throw in the occasional roll dodge and general movement ( your still gonna need to sprint a little from time to time against certain opponents) , let alone use 1/3 of your stam for shuffle.
3-4k stam is alot considering what you need it for in a magic build mixed with the lack of regen.
like telling a regular stamplar that if he wants a shield he should just slot blazing shield to spam and quit complaining. doesnt make sense.
stam have theyre form of damage mitigation and magicka has theres. both equally as annoying, i play both, i like to beleive i can be unbiased enough to realize both shields and evasion are both as effective in theyre own way

Cept there's a thing called immovability pots. pop one of those, and you can pop major evasion easy via shuffle since you won't have to worry about break-free/stuns.

for 15 secs, with a 45 sec cooldown,and super low recovery.
run a magicka build with shuffle and let me know how that turns out.
theres a reason why good magicka players dont run shuffle, if it didnt ultimitly cripple us we would, trust me.

idk

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Riiiight, so stamina users get to save 700 stamina when using Evasion at the full effectiveness. Meanwhile shields are not a flat bonus and require heavy magicka input to be effective, fortunately enough for mag users going heavy into magicka also increases all of their other damaging skills as well, and a variety of healing skills, which, by the way, can be used to counter the oblivion damage procs.

Don't get sidetracked by such a small difference in ability cost, big picture.

I am not side tracked by it. You still have a narrow focus. Still cannot see the forest for the trees. Merely looking at the evasion buff.

Have a good day.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Apparently you've a short attention span:

Major Evasion in this recent banter with you

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

I'm not trying to say that shields in general are overpowered. (cept maybe Hardened Ward, the scaling on that is absurd compared to others).

What I'd love to do is make shields more varied. Why don't shields stack with Spell Damage like Healing spells? Is it because stacking power that also allows for better defensive scaling on shields would be broken AF?

Could be Shields that scale better with Spell Power would have short durations but higher scalings, and shields that scale with max magicka would have longer durations but lower scalings, or something like that.

While it would need a lot of testing, I think that using these Buffs/Debuffs could act as checks and balances.

How most shields scale with Max Magicka, few Spell Power Based shields.

---

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Oblivion Damage yes, works on sorc shields, but it isn't exclusive to shields. It works wonders on all low health players. Does that not seem a little problematic to you? Similar to how the current Proc Sets work? Essentially 'Free Damage' with no restrictions in this case. I mean hell, the oblivion damage enchantment itself is bugged currently. The Internal Cooldown isn't reduced by the infused enchantment. If it were, you'd see a lot more cancerous builds in PvP.

You responded to this, In it I describe how the counter to shields is an effective counter to other builds, essentially a two-for-one, which isn't that balanced.

---

And don't forget your own opinion on proc sets, that they should scale with max resources. If that ever becomes the case, then a lot of shield based proc sets will become worthless.

idk

Leave it as it is

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

What's balanced about a Major Buff that costs 4K stamina for full effectiveness, which a Mag user can easily dip into, versus a stamina user who has no access to full on damage mitigation via shields since stamina doesn't scale to any kind of shield?

4k? You do not play stamina. Full medium armor and evasion has a cost of 3.3k to have 15% of damage miss them, well some skills cannot miss. Check the cost of harness magicka which is the only magicka based shield available to 4 classes and consider the damage it absorbs in Cyrodiil.

That is just the beginning of what is available to a stam character. Of course we do not need to talk about heals since it is really only one class that would run with a solid heal on their bar, ok, maybe two classes now.

Big picture when considering changes.

Maybe you did not read the entire post so I am providing it again and made bold one important sentence.

Avran_Sylt

@Barbaran

Oh, yeah also, a reason why stam users will not use bone shield is because it works off of %max hp. it doesn't scale with stamina.

Avran_Sylt

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

What's balanced about a Major Buff that costs 4K stamina for full effectiveness, which a Mag user can easily dip into, versus a stamina user who has no access to full on damage mitigation via shields since stamina doesn't scale to any kind of shield?

4k? You do not play stamina. Full medium armor and evasion has a cost of 3.3k to have 15% of damage miss them, well some skills cannot miss. Check the cost of harness magicka which is the only magicka based shield available to 4 classes and consider the damage it absorbs in Cyrodiil.

That is just the beginning of what is available to a stam character. Of course we do not need to talk about heals since it is really only one class that would run with a solid heal on their bar, ok, maybe two classes now.

Big picture when considering changes.

Maybe you did not read the entire post so I am providing it again and made bold one important sentence.

Perhaps you could enlighten me then. what. is. available for stam characters that is obviously better for damage mitigation than shields and heals. Roll-dodging? sure, but you can't deal damage while doing so, and you can't do so repeatedly because of roll-dodge fatigue absolutely draining your resources. Blocking? drains your primary resource, but you do have more of it.

I Won't argue that Stam users have great instant burst, but that's another discussion, hell, a Major shield buff would even help against that.

Using metaphors but not relating them to anything leads me to believe that you have no idea what the "forest" is.

idk

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

What's balanced about a Major Buff that costs 4K stamina for full effectiveness, which a Mag user can easily dip into, versus a stamina user who has no access to full on damage mitigation via shields since stamina doesn't scale to any kind of shield?

4k? You do not play stamina. Full medium armor and evasion has a cost of 3.3k to have 15% of damage miss them, well some skills cannot miss. Check the cost of harness magicka which is the only magicka based shield available to 4 classes and consider the damage it absorbs in Cyrodiil.

That is just the beginning of what is available to a stam character. Of course we do not need to talk about heals since it is really only one class that would run with a solid heal on their bar, ok, maybe two classes now.

Big picture when considering changes.

Maybe you did not read the entire post so I am providing it again and made bold one important sentence.

Perhaps you could enlighten me then. what. is. available for stam characters that is obviously better for damage mitigation than shields and heals. Roll-dodging? sure, but you can't deal damage while doing so, and you can't do so repeatedly because of roll-dodge fatigue absolutely draining your resources. Blocking? drains your primary resource, but you do have more of it.

I Won't argue that Stam users have great instant burst, but that's another discussion, hell, a Major shield buff would even help against that.

Using metaphors but not relating them to anything leads me to believe that you have no idea what the "forest" is.

Dude, look at the passives. Look at CP. That alone has much information. I can only discuss the simple stuff, but reading qq threads in the forums mentioned much like perpetual dodge roll builds and such.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

I'd rather not take CP into consideration for this, I know that I mentioned it in the original post, however it seems that the trend is to be non-cp to make PvP more competitive for all players.

And what passives are you talking about? There isn't a single passive in the game that grants bonus damage to shields. Hell, since damage shields can't be crit it makes the Crit bonus of med armor pointless, though at the same time allows for better scaling with the +12% Weapon damage bonus, which is only a slight increase.

You could talk about how Nirnhorned weapons would be better against damage shields, but since heavy armor has no trade off many users in PvP are running it. While that will decrease magicka a bit, the gained armor protection will outclass that nirnhorned extra damage against their weaker shield. Meaning sharpened is still go too. Hell dude, that could even be a weapon trait (increased damage against shields) that's targetted specifically for PvP (but which will dilute the weapon pool even further).

I get ya, it's a hell of a lot easier to discuss the simple stuff. But you shouldn't dismiss an idea just because you think there's a problem somewhere down the line. Take it at face value, consider it, and while contemplating figure out where it will and where it won't work. That's where the idea will shape and mold to fit into place.

This is a general statement. If you don't agree with it that's fine, you're of your own opinion. But that's why this is posted on the forums, so I can figure out via other people who have a different playing experience where this would run into issues since contemplating it on my own would leave several holes and flaws. You yourself note that. If you find the base idea fundamentally flawed ( the whole picture, not individual holes), then speak from that point. but if you just say that there's holes in the idea but don't point them out anywhere, that does jack-***.

Barbaran

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

What's balanced about a Major Buff that costs 4K stamina for full effectiveness, which a Mag user can easily dip into, versus a stamina user who has no access to full on damage mitigation via shields since stamina doesn't scale to any kind of shield?

4k? You do not play stamina. Full medium armor and evasion has a cost of 3.3k to have 15% of damage miss them, well some skills cannot miss. Check the cost of harness magicka which is the only magicka based shield available to 4 classes and consider the damage it absorbs in Cyrodiil.

That is just the beginning of what is available to a stam character. Of course we do not need to talk about heals since it is really only one class that would run with a solid heal on their bar, ok, maybe two classes now.

Big picture when considering changes.

Maybe you did not read the entire post so I am providing it again and made bold one important sentence.

Perhaps you could enlighten me then. what. is. available for stam characters that is obviously better for damage mitigation than shields and heals. Roll-dodging? sure, but you can't deal damage while doing so, and you can't do so repeatedly because of roll-dodge fatigue absolutely draining your resources. Blocking? drains your primary resource, but you do have more of it.

I Won't argue that Stam users have great instant burst, but that's another discussion, hell, a Major shield buff would even help against that.

Using metaphors but not relating them to anything leads me to believe that you have no idea what the "forest" is.

1-shuffle, 15% chance seems to dodge 70% of attacks
2-roll dodge, ive seens some guys roll dodge for days and still never run out of stam
3- vigor- 14k + heals in 5 seconds, good stam users basically use this like a shield
4- rally- timed correctly go from 2k health to full in a split second

as far as saying magicka builds have heals, only templar and warden. ward is so unreliable and any other resto heal is not a zero to full burst heal like so many stam heals

idk

Leave it as it is

I dismiss the idea because I do not think it is needed. I dismiss the idea because I think it is a bad idea and you have yet to prove it otherwise. It is a bad idea, especially for a defensive skill that lasts a mere 6 seconds for the sole purpose to make players decide between offense and defense. I can think of no debuff a player can inflict on another that hinders the usefulness of a defensive skill designed to reduce damage taken which pushes the idea further towards a bad idea for the game.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Dude, the Defile Debuff. It works in a similar vein. Not to mention, I also suggest introducing sets and buffs that are mirrors for shields, not just a debuff.

Also, Major Breech/Fracture are counters to Major Ward/Resolve

idk

Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Dude, the Defile Debuff. It works in a similar vein. Not to mention, I also suggest introducing sets and buffs that are mirrors for shields, not just a debuff.

No, skills that are defensive in nature. Yes healing replaces lost HP, but is not a skill to reduce damage taken.

As I pointed out before, changes to the game are not made in a vacuum and the greater impact is taken into consideration. You have not done that and have demonstrated a lack of overall knowledge on the game to determine the effect adding a new debuff specifically designed for PvP.

Avran_Sylt

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Dude, the Defile Debuff. It works in a similar vein. Not to mention, I also suggest introducing sets and buffs that are mirrors for shields, not just a debuff.

No, skills that are defensive in nature. Yes healing replaces lost HP, but is not a skill to reduce damage taken.

As I pointed out before, changes to the game are not made in a vacuum and the greater impact is taken into consideration. You have not done that and have demonstrated a lack of overall knowledge on the game to determine the effect adding a new debuff specifically designed for PvP.

And shields take the place of hp that would be lost. Seriously, they're different but function with the same intent. You're the one who's thinking of it as if it's in a vacuum.

In General:
If I use a damage shield it's to prevent incoming damage, or prevent further incoming damage. It isn't just to admire the pretty particle effects. If I shield and successfully mitigate the damage, then I don't need to use healing as much as I would have to otherwise, I've expended a resource cost, and increased my survivability.
On the other hand, If I heal, it's to restore lost health, If I heal while at less than full health, I've expended a resource cost, and I've extended my overall survivability.

Both skills try to keep you alive longer. One restores lost health, the other prevents lost health from happening. Oblivion damage was poor design as it allows a player to completely bypass a playstyle.

DisgracefulMind

It could be interesting

While it would be interesting, I think it'd be better to make it so that major protection doesn't work on damage shields.