Should (Damage) Shields take extra damage from lightning attacks? (Old)

Malamar1229 · June 2017

Nah

I would change a weapon trait that is pointless right now or largely unused and maybe give it a dmg bonus to shields.

Feanor · June 2017

Or we can delete shields and all the mag setups with them. Would at least stop the threads. Oh right, they would then complain about something else.

Lord_Eomer · June 2017

Nah

Lol,

You just want to remove magicka builds from this game!

Simply hate such sensless posts!

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

Jamini wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Heh, like what. Allow health based shields to have morphs that scale off of max magicka? (Templar in particular, DK following close behind) Have a normalized Resource/ShieldPower Ratio across all non-% based shields? (Annulment having a 0.33 Mag/ShieldPower Ratio, DK Obsidian Shield having a 0.30 Hp/ShieldPower Ratio (Self, 0.10 for allies), Sorc Conjured Ward having a 0.36 Mag/ShieldPower Ration which can be increased to a 0.48 Mag/ShieldPower Ratio through Hardened Ward)

That's not a bad idea, and it has a precedent in the Coagulating Dragon Blood change/fix. It's not what I was thinking, but the idea does have merit.

Personally I would prefer the ratios for health-based shields be adjusted upwards slightly. Very few players want to stack health like mag users can and do stack mag. Stacking magicka for sorcerers is easy and solid tactic to use to increase their damage, sustain (by virtue of being able to cast more before running dry.), and defenses, while stacking health on a DK or Templar effectively turns your character into a wet noodle that will run out of resources in one or two spell casts. Also do remember that most magicka-based shields have powerful secondary effects (Magicka return on Harness Magicka, The heal on Healing Ward, sorc passives on Hardened Ward)

A "Tanky" DK that isn't focusing health will have 29-35k health in cyrodiil, that equates to a 5-7k shield. A non-tank DK will have a shield that is about half that for themselves with Igneous Shield. Those values are cut in third for allied shields. An average sorc can have 40k+ magicka easily, resulting in a 10k hardened ward, a 7k approx harness, and a 7k approx healing ward. All while maintaining long range, good mobility with streak, and high damage by virtue of their magic. Now, a magDK can still get 14k of that, but overall the difference between class shields is pretty stark. This is why Igneous Shield is really only ever really slotted for the Major Mending buff.

*Edit: I also nearly forgot. Healing ward gains scaling if the target's health is low.

@Jamini

I can't say that I play DK too much, could you link the patch notes for it, or describe what changed? (Coagulating Blood)

On the topic of increasing health based ratio, I agree. a 0.30 ratio for the DK Obsidian shield is extremely low in comparison to the Sorcs 0.48 scaling for Hardened Ward. Especially if sorcs also increase the damage of all of their other abilities while gaining the increased power for Hardened Ward by stacking magicka.

Though if the ratio for hp/shield strength was increased for Obsidian Shield (significantly), I'd assume that the cost should increase as well. I'd have to take a look at the actual costs for Hardened and Obsidian Shield first, however.

Izaki · June 2017

Nah

Lightning attacks already have a chance to make the target take 8% more damage from all attacks, is that not enough for you?

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@IzakiBrotherSs

Well, I mean, that could be changed to a different debuff. Say a debuff that reduces the strength of applied shields. Similar to how Minor Defile and Diseased work.

This would lower the overall damage potential of Sorcs by a bit, while adding some new counterplay to shields.

idk · June 2017

Nah

OP has provided no justification for shields being weak to lightning. Especially so with nothing else about us weak to elements nor that it provides favoritism to magicka builds over stamina builds.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2017

Nah

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

No. Armor doesn't work that way, why should shields? Besides, shields already take full, unmitigated damage.

You really think you'd take less damage wearing full plate when someone hits you with a million volts?

If you're wanting adjustment, adjust armor. 1:1 Physical Resist to Spell Resist for each armor point was lazy design.

well, kinda full. You can't crit on shields. Meaning you're unable to hit above that base damage. (and also mitigating the bonus set effects of sets such as Archer's Mind and NB passives).

No, really full. By full, I mean unmitigated. The only mitigation that happens is for remaining damage that makes it through the shield.

And shields can't crit. You don't get to have it both ways. I'm quite certain most sorcs would happily let you crit shields if they had chance at 50%(+) bigger shields.

How many other sets are not invalidated because they don't offer those specific / niche bonuses? I can offer up a set that invalidates shields It, too is a speciality/niche set. What's your point?

Here are some fun facts some people are not aware of:

Sorcs have a shield (singular, as in one.)
Templars have a shield.
DK's have a shield.
Wardens have a shield.
NB's have a pseudo-shield (Mirage)

Every class has access to:

Healing Ward
Annulment

The direction you're trying to go would just result in stacking health and mitigation. We've been there, and done that.

I don't think shields are your issue here. Stacking of absurd stat pools, again, which every class can do, is the issue.

In terms of armor, I agree. Heavy armor should give more physical Resistance, and less Spell Resistance. Light armor gives more Spell Resistance (something about less inhibiting to your natural energy or some shite) but less Physical Resistance, and Medium armor is average on both.

And just to cover all bases here, the LA offering more resists could be chalked up to the enchanted nature of the armor. It makes at least as much sense as increasing your damage by putting on a leather jacket and heating up less when eating a fireball while wrapped up in your very own broaster.

When they implement other aspects of armor (like encumbrance when you're wearing a small car), then we can talk further about how armor should and should not work.

Jamini · June 2017

Nah

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Jamini

I can't say that I play DK too much, could you link the patch notes for it, or describe what changed? (Coagulating Blood)

In the homestead patch, Coagulating Dragon Blood was changed to scale from Max Magicka and Max Health, as well as missing magicka. It lost Minor Vitality, which was moved over to Green Dragon Blood (Making this morph the tanking/stamina version of the skill)

The change dramatically empowered mDKs, which were desperately in need of a buff before that.

On the topic of increasing health based ratio, I agree. a 0.30 ratio for the DK Obsidian shield is extremely low in comparison to the Sorcs 0.48 scaling for Hardened Ward. Especially if sorcs also increase the damage of all of their other abilities while gaining the increased power for Hardened Ward by stacking magicka.

Though if the ratio for hp/shield strength was increased for Obsidian Shield (significantly), I'd assume that the cost should increase as well. I'd have to take a look at the actual costs for Hardened and Obsidian Shield first, however.

The change could be applied to Fragmenting Shield, as that morph is essentially dead currently. Igneous Shield could keep its major mending (I wish the duration on Major mending had been kept. The Morrowind balance patch hit the skill and unicorn DK healers really hard), while Fragmenting shield gains better scaling and a cost increase. This would even help the skill itself be used more (in a similar vein as Blazing Shield Templars)

Merlin13KAGL wrote:

NB's have a pseudo-shield (Mirage)

WTF are you talking about. Mirage isn't a shield at all. I know most NBs take double take (since saptanking is hurting badly right now) but come on. Mirage is a pure stat buff (Minor Resolve, Ward, and Major Evasion)

PlagueSD · June 2017

Other

If the shield is made of metal, then yes. You should take extra damage. Since all shields in ESO are made of wood, which is an excellent insulator from electricity, you should take less damage. Now, that being said, those in heavy armor...That's a different story.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2017

Nah

Jamini wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote:

NB's have a pseudo-shield (Mirage)

WTF are you talking about. Mirage isn't a shield at all. I know most NBs take double take (since saptanking is hurting badly right now) but come on. Mirage is a pure stat buff (Minor Resolve, Ward, and Major Evasion)

Excuse me...Blur...

Shield = mitigation = damage not taken, so follow along:

Blur -> Mirage / Double Take -> Major Evasion -> 15% chance to dodge every single target effect for the duration -> pseudo-shield.

idk · June 2017

Nah

OP doesn't take into account balance. I see a change merely for the sake of change without providing any justification.

Does OP realize we take extra damage from some lightning as it is?

Jamini · June 2017

Nah

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote:

NB's have a pseudo-shield (Mirage)

WTF are you talking about. Mirage isn't a shield at all. I know most NBs take double take (since saptanking is hurting badly right now) but come on. Mirage is a pure stat buff (Minor Resolve, Ward, and Major Evasion)

Excuse me...Blur...

Shield = mitigation = damage not taken, so follow along:

Blur -> Mirage / Double Take -> Major Evasion -> 15% chance to dodge every single target effect for the duration -> pseudo-shield.

Major Evasion is not a shield. No more than Minor/Major Protection is.

Shield is a VERY specific term in ESO mechanics.

1. Shield - An ability that grants you temporary health over your current health. Damage to this health cannot be mitigated or damaged critically.

A pseudo-shield would be something like Mutagen, which rapidly heals you if your health reaches a specific threshold. Or an ability that heals you in a large burst, but then applies a small DoT. Or an ability that reflects damage (Dragon Scales, Eclipse) Evasion is in no way, shape, or form a shield.

MisterBigglesworth · June 2017

Nah

Keep this up guys and I'm going to have to start making parody threads/poll everyday like "Make transmog items tied to doing /kowtow in front of Mr. Bigglesworth at Rawl'ka" and "Should every NB ability do Oblivion damage?" and other terrible ideas.

Jamini · June 2017

Nah

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Keep this up guys and I'm going to have to start making parody threads/poll everyday like "Make transmog items tied to doing /kowtow in front of Mr. Bigglesworth at Rawl'ka" and "Should every NB ability do Oblivion damage?" and other terrible ideas.

+1 to transmorg tied to Bigglesworth /kowtow

You must do it for exactly an hour. To the second.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2017

Nah

Jamini wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote:

NB's have a pseudo-shield (Mirage)

WTF are you talking about. Mirage isn't a shield at all. I know most NBs take double take (since saptanking is hurting badly right now) but come on. Mirage is a pure stat buff (Minor Resolve, Ward, and Major Evasion)

Excuse me...Blur...

Shield = mitigation = damage not taken, so follow along:

Blur -> Mirage / Double Take -> Major Evasion -> 15% chance to dodge every single target effect for the duration -> pseudo-shield.

Major Evasion is not a shield. No more than Minor/Major Protection is.

Shield is a VERY specific term in ESO mechanics.

Thus the addition of the 'pseudo.'

1. Shield - An ability that grants you temporary health over your current health. Damage to this health cannot be mitigated or damaged critically.

A pseudo-shield would be something like Mutagen, which rapidly heals you if your health reaches a specific threshold. Or an ability that heals you in a large burst, but then applies a small DoT. Or an ability that reflects damage (Dragon Scales, Eclipse) Evasion is in no way, shape, or form a shield.

Might want to recheck your 'official definition'. 5 tooltips from 3 classes indicate nothing about 'temporary health.'

Shields prevent damage from reaching the character. More specifically, they absorb damage. Semantics aside, 15% chance to avoid 100% of a specific type of incoming damage is a shield, all day long.

Just because it doesn't have a specific visual doesn't change that fact.

KochDerDamonen · June 2017

Other

Phica_Lovic wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Well, think of lightning as magicka disruption. In Skyrim Shock Damage saps a targets magicka.

Currently for DW the standard for PvP is Disease (for the Diseased Proc Chance) and Poison (For the DoT). This beginning to be usurped by the flat damage of Oblivion damage just about everywhere.

If shields took bonus damage from Lightning, depending on how it functions, it could be the 'shield shredding' element. Meaning that Sorcs are innately good against one another's shields and players can slot Shock Damage enchantments on their weapons for that extra umph against shielded opponents.

Sorc and Desto are not the only sources of lighting damage. There are Enchantments and sets as well. Think sets like thunderbugs carapace, or storm knights plate. This could be expanded further with future sets.

I just assume that this kind of thought process is standard among forum goers. If it is indeed not, remember, you can always choose not to read this.

This isn't Skyrim. Can't mix balance with Skyrim lightning roleplay.

Balance > roleplay

@Phica_Lovic If ZOS didn't make defenses as absolutely lazy as possible, elemental damage types would be part of the game's balance. Instead they're basically pointless, only good for stacking buffs from passives instead of considering what will do damage against what and who...

Except for vampires, kind of, haha. If you manage to die to a daedroth in PvE, the game tells you that they are 'weak to shock'. This comes into gameplay in roughly no way at all. May just as well remove elemental damage types and leave them in as cosmetic options for roleplay.

Phica_Lovic · June 2017

Nah

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Phica_Lovic wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Well, think of lightning as magicka disruption. In Skyrim Shock Damage saps a targets magicka.

Currently for DW the standard for PvP is Disease (for the Diseased Proc Chance) and Poison (For the DoT). This beginning to be usurped by the flat damage of Oblivion damage just about everywhere.

If shields took bonus damage from Lightning, depending on how it functions, it could be the 'shield shredding' element. Meaning that Sorcs are innately good against one another's shields and players can slot Shock Damage enchantments on their weapons for that extra umph against shielded opponents.

Sorc and Desto are not the only sources of lighting damage. There are Enchantments and sets as well. Think sets like thunderbugs carapace, or storm knights plate. This could be expanded further with future sets.

I just assume that this kind of thought process is standard among forum goers. If it is indeed not, remember, you can always choose not to read this.

This isn't Skyrim. Can't mix balance with Skyrim lightning roleplay.

Balance > roleplay

@Phica_Lovic If ZOS didn't make defenses as absolutely lazy as possible, elemental damage types would be part of the game's balance. Instead they're basically pointless, only good for stacking buffs from passives instead of considering what will do damage against what and who...

Except for vampires, kind of, haha. If you manage to die to a daedroth in PvE, the game tells you that they are 'weak to shock'. This comes into gameplay in roughly no way at all. May just as well remove elemental damage types and leave them in as cosmetic options for roleplay.

I'd give a hard disagree with that. I believe the reason that elemental resistances died in waaaay early game was because it gives a huge advantage to certain classes.

Getting your ass-kicked by sorcs? Lightning resist.
Can't beat that DK? Flame.
Etc. etc.

Same thing with PvE mobs. It'd be "okay, we need 3 dps sorcs, and 2 dks, and we'll throw some other classes in for that magic damage that no one is vulnerable to".

KochDerDamonen · June 2017

Other

Phica_Lovic wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Phica_Lovic wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Well, think of lightning as magicka disruption. In Skyrim Shock Damage saps a targets magicka.

Currently for DW the standard for PvP is Disease (for the Diseased Proc Chance) and Poison (For the DoT). This beginning to be usurped by the flat damage of Oblivion damage just about everywhere.

If shields took bonus damage from Lightning, depending on how it functions, it could be the 'shield shredding' element. Meaning that Sorcs are innately good against one another's shields and players can slot Shock Damage enchantments on their weapons for that extra umph against shielded opponents.

Sorc and Desto are not the only sources of lighting damage. There are Enchantments and sets as well. Think sets like thunderbugs carapace, or storm knights plate. This could be expanded further with future sets.

I just assume that this kind of thought process is standard among forum goers. If it is indeed not, remember, you can always choose not to read this.

This isn't Skyrim. Can't mix balance with Skyrim lightning roleplay.

Balance > roleplay

@Phica_Lovic If ZOS didn't make defenses as absolutely lazy as possible, elemental damage types would be part of the game's balance. Instead they're basically pointless, only good for stacking buffs from passives instead of considering what will do damage against what and who...

Except for vampires, kind of, haha. If you manage to die to a daedroth in PvE, the game tells you that they are 'weak to shock'. This comes into gameplay in roughly no way at all. May just as well remove elemental damage types and leave them in as cosmetic options for roleplay.

I'd give a hard disagree with that. I believe the reason that elemental resistances died in waaaay early game was because it gives a huge advantage to certain classes.

Getting your ass-kicked by sorcs? Lightning resist.
Can't beat that DK? Flame.
Etc. etc.

Same thing with PvE mobs. It'd be "okay, we need 3 dps sorcs, and 2 dks, and we'll throw some other classes in for that magic damage that no one is vulnerable to".

@Phica_Lovic Game's broken from the ground up in these terms. I'm not advocating for a sudden addition of lightning damage v.s. shields, just saying that this is a totally boring aspect of the game. It would be a lot more interesting if this sort of mechanic encouraged a trial group to pack 2 or 3 of each class to ensure a good elemental spread for different bosses, along with encouragement to focus on using different destruction staves for different situations other than singletarget and AoE.

TheShadowScout · June 2017

Nah

If anything should take extra damage from lightning, its characters standing in water I would think...

Shields, there is a star to spend c-points on for that. And a PvP armor set.

And as mentioned, giving shields a weakness one class can exploit better then any other would be a bit unbalancing - which also rules out fire and ice for the very same reason.

If shields should be "weak" against anything, I would vote for basic light melee attacks.
Because...

"The slow blade penetrates the shield!"

Phica_Lovic · June 2017

Nah

TheShadowScout wrote: »

If anything should take extra damage from lightning, its characters standing in water I would think...

Shields, there is a star to spend c-points on for that. And a PvP armor set.

And as mentioned, giving shields a weakness one class can exploit better then any other would be a bit unbalancing - which also rules out fire and ice for the very same reason.

If shields should be "weak" against anything, I would vote for basic light melee attacks.
Because...

"The slow blade penetrates the shield!"

Win.

The_Smilemeister · June 2017

Other

Why shields? They're made of wood! Sure, it'll burn but that's what fire is for, not lighting. Lightning is for giving the shock of someone's life! (No pun intended.)

Why not heavy armour? It's metal. It conducts electricity. Chuck a bucket of water over that tank and zap the living hell out of it!

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@OpponentSmile66

Damage shields, such as Annulment/Hardened Ward

Gilvoth · June 2017

Nah

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Would make sorcs way too unbalanced.

you say that as if sorcerers are not already imbalanced.

The_Smilemeister · June 2017

Other

@Avran_Sylt

It's called a joke. How could you possibly take that seriously? Lol

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@OpponentSmile66

You'd be surprised...

The_Smilemeister · June 2017

Other

@Avran_Sylt

That's a good point. Just spent about an hour in that "non binary" post. Some stuff in there would surprise anyone.

Solariken · June 2017

Nah

I'm not crazy about that idea but shields do need a real counter. Major/Minor Defile might be one answer. Honestly though shields are too strong in both PvE and PvP - I would rather some sort of diminishing returns on shield stacking, ie new shields are 50% weaker when applied to an already shielded target.

Wreuntzylla · June 2017

FPS! FPS! FPS! THIS GAME IS AN FPS!!!! DPS request number 26489648503 to nerf non-instakilled players!

I don't use a shield, but the constant and successful attempts to nerf non-meta builds has led to fairly stale PvP.

Focused aim, focused aim, focused aim.

Ambush, light attack, viper, incapacitating strike, surprise attack.

Poison injection, critical rush, dizzying swing, executioner.

Haunting curse, force pulse or destructive reach, crystal frags, endless fury

Eye of Storm (and apparently nothing else for the people that use it to bomb).

Did I miss any?

PlagueSD · June 2017

Other

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

FPS! FPS! FPS! THIS GAME IS AN FPS!!!! DPS request number 26489648503 to nerf non-instakilled players!

I don't use a shield, but the constant and successful attempts to nerf non-meta builds has led to fairly stale PvP.

Focused aim, focused aim, focused aim.

Ambush, light attack, viper, incapacitating strike, surprise attack.

Poison injection, critical rush, dizzying swing, executioner.

Haunting curse, force pulse or destructive reach, crystal frags, endless fury

Eye of Storm (and apparently nothing else for the people that use it to bomb).

Did I miss any?

A few..."***! Ha ha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cuihrjLNAo