[Suggestion] Do not allow lowbies queue to Veteran dungeons

RIGHTEOUS_REPORT · June 2017

Do not allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons

Hang on guys.

The last time I did a vet dungeon you had to be like minimum 300CP? Fu%^&*ng epic battles.

Are the Vet dungeons nerfed? Noway CP10-159 can do vet without being carried by elites.

Jamini · June 2017

Allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons (as it is now)

SilverWF wrote: »

Wonder, why ppl ignoring "can't share gear" problem?..

You shouldn't be doing gear farms in groupfinder, and the only reason to farm vet dungeons for gear is for Monster Helms and Jewlery.

It's literally a non-issue.

Just imagine that not all, but most veterans choose that option. Who would left in the vet queue? Lowbies and a few veterans. HM dungeons would still be undoable. Just the same as restriction, but with broken hope and worst experience added.
Now you understand why this "option" is bad?

It's funny how this statement has no basis in reality at all.

A good player (especially a tank) can outright carry mediocre/bad teams through the easier HM dungeons. I've done it.

The only dungeons that need a proper lock on them are the DLC dungeons. As those are legitimately hard enough that a low-level character that lacks passives will not be able to pass them.

idk · June 2017

Allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons (as it is now)

SilverWF wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

There is an option that we all have to ensure we do the dungeons with the CP level players we choose. It is called forming the group ourselves. Using GF we give up that privilege by design and by choice.

Just imagine that not all, but most veterans choose that option. Who would left in the vet queue? Lowbies and a few veterans. HM dungeons would still be undoable. Just the same as restriction, but with broken hope and worst experience added.
Now you understand why this "option" is bad?

Clearly that is not the case and it is outside the topic of your OP. Also, the situation being discussed here is not an issue overall, as I pointed out it is rare that I cannot clear a vet dungeon with a complete random pug, even when I am tanking and not contributing to the damage.

So where is the real issue?

Jamini wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Wonder, why ppl ignoring "can't share gear" problem?..

You shouldn't be doing gear farms in groupfinder, and the only reason to farm vet dungeons for gear is for Monster Helms and Jewlery.

It's literally a non-issue.

Just imagine that not all, but most veterans choose that option. Who would left in the vet queue? Lowbies and a few veterans. HM dungeons would still be undoable. Just the same as restriction, but with broken hope and worst experience added.
Now you understand why this "option" is bad?

It's funny how this statement has no basis in reality at all.

A good player (especially a tank) can outright carry mediocre/bad teams through the easier HM dungeons. I've done it.

The only dungeons that need a proper lock on them are the DLC dungeons. As those are legitimately hard enough that a low-level character that lacks passives will not be able to pass them.

@Jamini gets it.

timb16_ESO85 · June 2017

Allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons (as it is now)

While I don't mind low cp players in veteran dungeons, I do mind people not knowing what they are doing. In stead of limiting low cps, they should limit veteran dungeon access to having at least completed the dungeon on normal difficulty. there absolutely is nothing worse than wiping because somebody doesn't know the mechanics, or worse, because someone is listening to the quest text and not doing anything else.This would still allow people who know what they do in veteran dungeons, while restricting access for anyone who is new (no matter the cp of the player).

Lusty · June 2017

Allow lowbies queue to easy veteran dungeons only (with number 1 in the name)

i'll have to agree...

yesterday i was on my tank in vet wayrest II,

A cp75 dragonknight dps wielding nothing but 2 swords and barely using skills joined the group.

we made it but it was so agonizing slow...

i have nothing against low lvl players but please know what you're doing and how classes work for your own and your groups sake.

RIGHTEOUS_REPORT · June 2017

Do not allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons

Have to admit guys, I have joined many groups for Vet dungeons and most are complete useless noobs it does *** you off.

Obviously you will encounter noobs on normal but that's standard isn't it.

90% of Vet dungeon players are infact noobs trying to get a quick buck.

Flameheart · June 2017

Silver, I love you, please make more polls ("I don't care" option)

Imho you don't need it, the kick option is enough. I may add that I met DDs with low CPs who did reasonable dps and I met 600 CP DDs (anchor specialists ?) who hit like a wet noodle.

When I queue up as a DD I am able to pull the group through nevertheless in most cases, although this isn't that easy anymore now after the sustain nerf and without some support from a healer.

When I am tank, I wait for the first few trash mobs to get a grasp about the group dps, if it's really lousy I fake a disconnect. If there is in addition a healer who has no clue concerning support, I just leave the group with a "you know why" in group chat. Afterwards I log onto another char, doing a click in Dressing Room for a tank build and queue up again to get another group within seconds.

I never go random for DLC vet instances (golden rule).

Although you will have always bad options if the incompetent healer is the girl friend of the even more incompetent DD.

Sakiri · June 2017

xblackroxe wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

After the healer dropped because no one would vote to kick the CP100 DD we 3 manned the vet dungeon without issue, with the CP100 DD and the other dps off healing which would reduced their dps some. My tank was build as a tank so I was not contributing to damage.

I have also been in vet dungeons with DDs over CP160 and the damage sucked and we could not clear.

So bias against sub CP160 does not seem to fit well.

Carrying a bad dd is ez. Carrying a bad tank/healer is not.

Depends.

Tried veteran Darkshade I and the DPS couldn't do it. I can only carry so much.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2017

Allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons (as it is now)

The moment you hit 50, you're vet. You likely have all necessary skills and passives unlocked by that point.

You're equating CP's with ability and experience and lack of CP's with lack thereof.

I can assure you, neither is the case.

Will it be harder? Likely. Will it force the 'lowbies' to improve their game? Definitely.

Yeah, the gear is not tradeable (in any useful fashion), but that's the only drawback. Every VR1 immediately had access to all "Version II's" before. It should be no different now.

I could see a recommended CP level of 120+ for the vWGT/vICP, and 160+ for vCoS/vRoM, but absolutely restricting them is not necessary.

Your suggestion would lead to groups with your CP requirement, still being brand damned new to the dungeons, as they had not been allowed in prior to 160.

End result would be the same, if not worse.

I'll take a higher CP level group of players that learned how to deal with mechanics and group play before they had the full power of max level gear and CP's over a Fully golded, 1000cp grinder that hasn't got the first clue how to handle what we're getting ready to step into, any day of the week!

abigfishy · June 2017

Silver, I love you, please make more polls ("I don't care" option)

Best and most easy change is to swap the default. On my alt account I am at about CP 80. I queue for my daily random and until the dungeon starts I don't realize it is a vet dungeon. All I want is a 15 minute run through FG1 or SC1 for the daily Xp not some nightmare two hours in DS2.

GiuEliN0 · June 2017

Allow lowbies queue to easy veteran dungeons only (with number 1 in the name)

Yes i agree.
I don't find this a problem when I play with my DD, but when I'm with the healer it's a slow agony

Kneighbors · June 2017

Allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons (as it is now)

Talented cp10 can give better performance than 630cp specially as tank or heal.

SilverWF · June 2017

Do not allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons

Jamini wrote: »

You shouldn't be doing gear farms in groupfinder, and the only reason to farm vet dungeons for gear is for Monster Helms and Jewlery.

It's literally a non-issue.

Sure not.
But nothing stops me from several votekicks and leaving (if they has failed).
Not the best game experience for lowbie, right?

SilverWF · June 2017

Do not allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

The moment you hit 50, you're vet. You likely have all necessary skills and passives unlocked by that point.

Not.
Or, at least, this is outdated.
At release, you were veteran at 50, because it took much longer time. You hit 50 (and Vet1) at the end of Coldharbour zone, doing all possible quests (dungeons, bosses, etc) around. And hit Vet rank cap (12, then 14, then 16...) at the end of Cadwell's Gold. I remember it at my Sorc: I got to Vet 14 while having "tamriel hero" title already and only 3 (three!) side quests left.
In the current state you reaching 50 at the end of 2nd zone, literally easy walking around nad having only half of needed to just one build Skill points and half leveled skills. You are not real veteran here. Champion - yes, veteran - not.

Since the One Tamriel released, the meaning of "veteran" must has been changed too. You can be a VETERAN only after cp160.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

CP level means nothing

Anyway, I like this.
At my 450cp I just cant reach 40k DPS even at Sorc (~30k was my best with perfect rota).
But this guy said, that you can have enough DPS, HPS or survivability even at low CP. Who the hell need that stupid CPs? Lets do ROM at cp10 - it is doable, hurray!
Lol, nice.
He able to said anything - if it will be kinda "white-forum-knight" stuff and allow him to farm stars under the name even more

Kurkikohtaus · June 2017

Do not allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons

Prom the perspective of a DD looking at the other <160 DD ...

Can a <160 DD contribute to a vet dungeon? Yes.
Can they actually be better than a >160 who does not know what they are doing? Absolutely.

But the problem is this: I believe that many sub 160's do not understand several things:

how the scaling mechanism works in general, and specifically how it penalizes you. If you gear level is too far below your cp level, your stats take a hit across the board. I doubt there are many players who conscienciously update their entire gear, or even their weapon every 10 cps.
the fact as stated by the OP that any gear they find in a vet dungeon will very quickly become obsolete
their time would be better spent clearing normal dungeons quickly, the xp bonus for a random normal is the same as for a random vet. Get to 160 asap, craft or buy yourself some purple gear and if you know encounter mechanics, you will be good to go.

While it would be a shame in a way to lock sub-160s out of vet dungeons, those who are good enough to do them are good enough to get to 160 very fast anyway. Locking them out would save many people a lot of frustration, not just the higher-leveled group but the sub 160 as well.

Magdalina · June 2017

Allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons (as it is now)

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Prom the perspective of a DD looking at the other <160 DD ...

Can a <160 DD contribute to a vet dungeon? Yes.
Can they actually be better than a >160 who does not know what they are doing? Absolutely.

But the problem is this: I believe that many sub 160's do not understand several things:
how the scaling mechanism works in general, and specifically how it penalizes you. If you gear level is too far below your cp level, your stats take a hit across the board. I doubt there are many players who conscienciously update their entire gear, or even their weapon every 10 cps.

the fact as stated by the OP that any gear they find in a vet dungeon will very quickly become obsolete

their time would be better spent clearing normal dungeons quickly, the xp bonus for a random normal is the same as for a random vet. Get to 160 asap, craft or buy yourself some purple gear and if you know encounter mechanics, you will be good to go.

While it would be a shame in a way to lock sub-160s out of vet dungeons, those who are good enough to do them are good enough to get to 160 very fast anyway. Locking them out would save many people a lot of frustration, not just the higher-leveled group but the sub 160 as well.

But how are they gonna know mechanics if they never run vet dungeons to begin with? That's exactly how you get clueless cp 160+ players. "Less than cp 160 is bad, gotta grind to cp 160...oh sh**, how do I actually play the game?!"

SilverWF · June 2017

Do not allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons

Magdalina wrote: »

But how are they gonna know mechanics if they never run vet dungeons to begin with? That's exactly how you get clueless cp 160+ players. "Less than cp 160 is bad, gotta grind to cp 160...oh sh**, how do I actually play the game?!"

How are they would knew mechs if they would constantly kicked out or everyone woyld leave groups with them?

If someone wanna teach them - let they invite lowbies and do any dungeons they only want to.
But - outside of DF.

More than that. If I see, that player (>160 sure) knows his class, but didn't know just this dungeon mechs - I would always explain it.
But I have no plans to explain for some lowbies of how to play their class and spec. Not at all.

That's a meaning of Veteran: you can not know of all around mechs, but you must know your class perfectly.

Kurkikohtaus · June 2017

Do not allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons

Magdalina wrote: »

But how are they gonna know mechanics if they never run vet dungeons to begin with? That's exactly how you get clueless cp 160+ players. "Less than cp 160 is bad, gotta grind to cp 160...oh sh**, how do I actually play the game?!"

Normal mode will give you a good idea about the mechanics of any given encounter, the difference being that you can learn a bit as you go on normal without weighing the group down. And as I said, there is great xp to be had up to cp160 running random normals.

Arundo · June 2017

Allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons (as it is now)

crap pressed wrong but I wouldnt mind if we got like two or three tier veteran dungeon que options.

- Easy
- Harder
- DLC

EvilCroc · June 2017

Allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons (as it is now)

Why do you even care about level of somebody's loot? Nobody have to share their loot with you. It is their loot with their level on it. Random queue is not for loot farming anyway.

zaria · June 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

RIGHTEOUS_REPORT wrote: »

Good but how do you stop these new char with shared champion points?

I see level30 who I think are noobs but have 600CP.

This is more the case. CP level means nothing and most that complain about being in a group with a low CP are often part of the problem. I queue for randoms for the heck of it and during the past year have had maybe 4/5 groups that could not clear. I mostly queue for vet dungeons at that.

An low cp player is unlikely to have decent gear, if lucky they have an decent crafted set who is not too low.
They would also be less experienced on average.
Raising the requirement to cp160 would not impact much, yes they should still be allowed to run them in pre formed group but not use the dungeon finder for vet alone.

SilverWF · June 2017

Do not allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons

EvilCroc wrote: »

Why do you even care about level of somebody's loot? Nobody have to share their loot with you. It is their loot with their level on it. Random queue is not for loot farming anyway.

Why not do 2 tasks in one? Didn't see any reasons against it.

And they wouldn't get "their" loot if they would be constantly kicked or real veterans wouldn't have a wish to carry them.

This leads to the really bad game experience only.

Rianai · June 2017

SilverWF wrote: »

How are they would knew mechs if they would constantly kicked out or everyone woyld leave groups with them?

Luckily not everyone acts like this, otherwise dungeons would have died long ago, because a lot of players would have been scared away. Keep in mind, every noob can potentially become an experienced players who will be an enrichment for your dungeon runs. You just have to give them a chance.

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Normal mode will give you a good idea about the mechanics of any given encounter, the difference being that you can learn a bit as you go on normal without weighing the group down. And as I said, there is great xp to be had up to cp160 running random normals.

Many mechanics can be ignored in normal mode. Especially if those new players are paired with experienced ones that just rush through the dungeon, basically soloing it. While i agree, that doing normal dungeons first is still a good idea, often they doesn't offer a sufficient preparation for vet dungeons, because the difference in difficulty is huge.

SilverWF wrote: »

And they wouldn't get "their" loot if they would be constantly kicked or real veterans wouldn't have a wish to carry them.

This leads to the really bad game experience only.

Jerks will ruin other player's game experience no matter what. It is not the fault of the game.

SilverWF · June 2017

Do not allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons

Rianai wrote: »

You just have to give them a chance.

Sadly, you are ignored "know his class" note.

Rianai wrote: »

Jerks will ruin other player's game experience no matter what. It is not the fault of the game.

Seeing a lowbie in the really hard encounter would make a jerks even from pretty nice guys.

Rianai · June 2017

I did not ignore anything. Unlike you.

Royaji · June 2017

SilverWF wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

Why do you even care about level of somebody's loot? Nobody have to share their loot with you. It is their loot with their level on it. Random queue is not for loot farming anyway.

Why not do 2 tasks in one? Didn't see any reasons against it.

And they wouldn't get "their" loot if they would be constantly kicked or real veterans wouldn't have a wish to carry them.

This leads to the really bad game experience only.

Even if you are such a di..., khm, *** to always kick low cp players from dungeons or throw a tantrum and rage quit once your vote fails doesn't mean that everyone (read majority) will do the same.

Being a crybaby is your choice, sweetheart.

Edit: oh, come on ZOS, *** is a totally legit way of saying rooster. Stop censoring me

EvilCroc · June 2017

Allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons (as it is now)

SilverWF wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

Why do you even care about level of somebody's loot? Nobody have to share their loot with you. It is their loot with their level on it. Random queue is not for loot farming anyway.

Why not do 2 tasks in one? Didn't see any reasons against it.

And they wouldn't get "their" loot if they would be constantly kicked or real veterans wouldn't have a wish to carry them.

This leads to the really bad game experience only.

I think It is better to be kicked from group, than to play with elitist jerks. Just my opinion though.
I like how the system works right now. Leave it be.

SilverWF · June 2017

Do not allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons

Rianai wrote: »

I did not ignore anything. Unlike you.

Always love this upset "notU"

What exactly I has ignored, please?

lolo_01b16_ESO · June 2017

Allow lowbies queue to the any veteran dungeons (as it is now)

I think cp restrictions on vet dungeons are a bad idea because it would imply that you need a certain amout of cp and then you can complete them, but this is not true. The main issue with new players in vet dungeons is that they haven't had any incentive to learn core game mechanics while leveling.
Do you really think that a hybrid warden with froststaff + bow who stands in every red and never blocks will be a much better player when he levels to 160cp via questing and normal dungeons? I even met players with >300cp in dungeons who asked me where they can find that cool skill that I used to roll away from the boss and avoid his attacks.

In my opinion zos should deal with the underlying issues instead of trying to hide them with a cp barrier.
They should add some kind of tutorial about roles and mechanics in group dungeons to the undaunted quests, make it visual for players which dungeons are harder and which ones are easier and change normal quest bosses in a way, so they force people to learn when to use block, dodge and interrupt.
The time to react to mechanics of quest bosses, normal dungeons and overworld content should be longer than in vet content, so players with a more relaxed approch can beat them, but if you don't react at all, you should still get oneshot.

Rianai · June 2017

SilverWF wrote: »

What exactly I has ignored, please?

The fact that most vet dungeons can be done with a low cp player just fine (i know from my own experience, because i don't kick them) and that a player doesn't magically become better once he reaches cp160.