Some controversies (PvP mostly)

Hoked_on_ponix · June 2017

@ OP and anyone else complaining about AC

When you look at a death recap and see a list of stuff that hit you. IT DOES NOT MEAN HE HIT YOU WITH 5 ABILITIES IN A SECOND. So much burst is lined up with proc sets/delayed skills (curse, subterranean assault, Inferno, PoL, ect)/weapon enchants/ poisons. As long as you can hit one skill in slightly less than a second that you are maximizing the amount of skills you can use.

old_mufasa · June 2017

Op isn't wrong.. the system of animation canceling was not a feature when the game came out.. and they tried to fix it.. then gave up saying.. well we can't fix it so now its a feature.

The problem leaving it in is that it throws any balance out the window. Class's like the night blade keep getting nerfed is mainly do to animation canceling if a night blade animation cancels and there ability to break target lock makes there burst almost impossible to counter.. then add nerf to sustained blocking and you get people screaming for nerfs.. now you take that same night blade remove the ability to animation cancel or play with out using it if you want to test it.. that same night blade is not near the same threat..

A class should not be make or break based on animation canceling ..

I always thought that effects, damage and such should always come at the end of the animation.. meaning if you block, dodge, switch weapons ( though I think you shouldn't be able to switch weapons mid animation) that it cancels out what ever effect you were attempting to cast/perform.

I agree they would need to rebalance skills and class's but it would be more healthy for the game in the long run.

SilverWF · June 2017

Hoked_on_ponix wrote: »

@ OP and anyone else complaining about AC

When you look at a death recap and see a list of stuff that hit you. IT DOES NOT MEAN HE HIT YOU WITH 5 ABILITIES IN A SECOND. So much burst is lined up with proc sets/delayed skills (curse, subterranean assault, Inferno, PoL, ect)/weapon enchants/ poisons. As long as you can hit one skill in slightly less than a second that you are maximizing the amount of skills you can use.

Who said here about death recap btw?

Trashkan wrote: »

BOOM 2 wrecking blows within a second. https://youtu.be/jDW7ieQsp7E

Funny...

SwaminoNowlino · June 2017

Trashkan wrote: »

BOOM 2 wrecking blows within a second. https://youtu.be/jDW7ieQsp7E

If you actually watch the video in full resolution and slow motion, you can see that it is in fact not two wrecking blows in 1 second. This is the previously acknowledged "macro slice" bug. Look at when the abilities are fired and the damage registers in the damage notifications. Its especially clear in the third one. It looks like the person who captured the video figured out a piece of terrain that causes this consistently, notice that its the same combo and same initial position every time.

While a bug that should be fixed, it is not an animation cancelling problem. Also not consistently reproducible in Cyrodiil, though maybe some folks have indeed found a way.

Demycilian · June 2017

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

BOOM 2 wrecking blows within a second. https://youtu.be/jDW7ieQsp7E

If you actually watch the video in full resolution and slow motion, you can see that it is in fact not two wrecking blows in 1 second. This is the previously acknowledged "macro slice" bug. Look at when the abilities are fired and the damage registers in the damage notifications. Its especially clear in the third one. It looks like the person who captured the video figured out a piece of terrain that causes this consistently, notice that its the same combo and same initial position every time.

While a bug that should be fixed, it is not an animation cancelling problem. Also not consistently reproducible in Cyrodiil, though maybe some folks have indeed found a way.

You are trying too hard.

Hoked_on_ponix · June 2017

SilverWF wrote: »

Hoked_on_ponix wrote: »

@ OP and anyone else complaining about AC

When you look at a death recap and see a list of stuff that hit you. IT DOES NOT MEAN HE HIT YOU WITH 5 ABILITIES IN A SECOND. So much burst is lined up with proc sets/delayed skills (curse, subterranean assault, Inferno, PoL, ect)/weapon enchants/ poisons. As long as you can hit one skill in slightly less than a second that you are maximizing the amount of skills you can use.

Who said here about death recap btw?

Trashkan wrote: »

BOOM 2 wrecking blows within a second. https://youtu.be/jDW7ieQsp7E

Funny...

I challenge anyone consistently recreate that... It is lag/fps issues. As someone who "exploits" with AC all the time I have never done that. Occasionally this will happen with lag/fps issues.

SwaminoNowlino · June 2017

Demycilian wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

BOOM 2 wrecking blows within a second. https://youtu.be/jDW7ieQsp7E

If you actually watch the video in full resolution and slow motion, you can see that it is in fact not two wrecking blows in 1 second. This is the previously acknowledged "macro slice" bug. Look at when the abilities are fired and the damage registers in the damage notifications. Its especially clear in the third one. It looks like the person who captured the video figured out a piece of terrain that causes this consistently, notice that its the same combo and same initial position every time.

While a bug that should be fixed, it is not an animation cancelling problem. Also not consistently reproducible in Cyrodiil, though maybe some folks have indeed found a way.

You are trying too hard.

Not trying hard at all. It took a solid minute of analysis. If its so easy to reproduce, take a video of you doing it consistently. This is a red herring. Macro slice is absolutely an issue that should be fixed. I've never seen a single post or video of someone supporting it. But its not the same thing as animation cancelling. Its a server hiccup somewhat related to gap closing over terrain. If you completely did away with animation cancelling, this would still happen.

Hoked_on_ponix · June 2017

Demycilian wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

BOOM 2 wrecking blows within a second. https://youtu.be/jDW7ieQsp7E

If you actually watch the video in full resolution and slow motion, you can see that it is in fact not two wrecking blows in 1 second. This is the previously acknowledged "macro slice" bug. Look at when the abilities are fired and the damage registers in the damage notifications. Its especially clear in the third one. It looks like the person who captured the video figured out a piece of terrain that causes this consistently, notice that its the same combo and same initial position every time.

While a bug that should be fixed, it is not an animation cancelling problem. Also not consistently reproducible in Cyrodiil, though maybe some folks have indeed found a way.

You are trying too hard.

And you are trying too hard to come up to up with a reason as to why you get killed all the time in PvP other than a L2p issue.

Demycilian · June 2017

Hoked_on_ponix wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

BOOM 2 wrecking blows within a second. https://youtu.be/jDW7ieQsp7E

If you actually watch the video in full resolution and slow motion, you can see that it is in fact not two wrecking blows in 1 second. This is the previously acknowledged "macro slice" bug. Look at when the abilities are fired and the damage registers in the damage notifications. Its especially clear in the third one. It looks like the person who captured the video figured out a piece of terrain that causes this consistently, notice that its the same combo and same initial position every time.

While a bug that should be fixed, it is not an animation cancelling problem. Also not consistently reproducible in Cyrodiil, though maybe some folks have indeed found a way.

You are trying too hard.

And you are trying too hard to come up to up with a reason as to why you get killed all the time in PvP other than a L2p issue.

As long as ZOS doesnt care for our concerns, and prefers to cheese out of providing us with a solid and credible game experience, I say it doesnt matter if another l2p parrot found its way into this discussion.

KingYogi415 · June 2017

*plays game for 5 hours, proceeds to tell everyone why it should be changed to fit them....
People these days.

Go watch good players duel in stormwind somtime, you might learn somthing.

Unless your are pulling 40k dps or have got emp solo, you have no right to say this game takes no skill. The amount of salt in this QQ was so huge, this thread will be closed for baiting.

[snip]

Cheers!

[Edit for baiting]

KingYogi415 · June 2017

Btw if you don't learn how to block, dodge roll or mitgate damage in any way, you deserve to be blow up by a high burst combo.

Never get any1 down past halfway? PVP takes hundreds of hours before you can even stand toe to toe with a average player. You need humility and dedication to get anywhere. [snip]

[Edit for baiting]

GeorgeBlack · June 2017

When real PvPers happen to wander in ESO they laught at its combat.
The game is broken.
People go Meta to compete.
Like someone said @ZOS made pvp super casual. They sold a game to fanboys and fangirls that wanted the Lore.
[snip]

It's laughable how you defend a flaw that @Wrobel called a feature.

These animations would not have been designed if we where meant to play like this.

But because it's something that you use to your advantage you would hate to see it fixed.
[snip]

[Edit for baiting and flaming]

NyassaV · June 2017

L2P... Sorry, but L2P. And realistically speaking, you cannot do 5 attacks in one second, maybe 3 at the most, your argument was rendered invalid the moment I read that as you clear are not well versed enough to make this argument

ZOS_Bill · June 2017

A few comments in this thread have been edited or removed for insults and baiting. Even if you disagree with someone, there is no need to insult them or to try and bait them into reacting badly. Please stay on-topic and if you have nothing constructive to add then just move onto a different thread.

Drdeath20 · June 2017

The same people that defend AC are the same people that pvdoor.

It's all about abusing every exploit and has nothing to do with moves and counter play.

The entire campaign experience of pvp is set up to be exploited to begin with.

Soo many bad decisions made by the developer most made for the sake of forcing players to spend money.

Locked alliances
RNG
Pvp that last a month and has no reset after.
Endless seiging
No real small scale
AC

Jollygoodusername · June 2017

I agree completely with the OP about combat. Worst combat of any MMO I've encountered, even the synergy functions are slow and unresponsive. Compounded by server lag, PvP is a nightmare that often has people wondering what the hell they died from.

But yeah...it's fine. Can always just use cheats and blame it on lag and animation cancelling.

Rohamad_Ali · June 2017

I think LAG is Our biggest enemy here . The server has a hard time keeping up with how fast combat is and players with higher ping end up the biggest victims . So it appears that someone kills you in one second on your PC even though that's not what happened .

ZoS needs better lag management for thier combat system .

hmsdragonfly · June 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Eso is the only game I've seen in which players post videos 1v10 and they kill them all.

In other games a good player will post a video of his class going 1v2 1v3 1v4, but in Eso you have come to accept that a player can burst down one by one his enemies while his resources are going up and down.

This is incorrect. No matter how good you are, you can't fight against 2 good players and win. Those 1vXers in those 1vX videos are simply fighting against inexperienced players, low lvls, newbies and people who have absolutely no idea of how to PvP.

Btw, if you look at Battlefield, you can find a lot of videos of someone killing 20 people (or more) without dying.

AyelineESO · June 2017

Demycilian wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Animation cancelling is a skill lol. You're really trying to take away all the skill left in this game lol.

Animation canceling is the very opposite of skillful play, as it removes counterplay.

How does it remove counterplay? It takes me 5 seconds to learn an enemies skill bars and knowing their skill bars I will know their rotation. If people can't work out an enemies skill bar that's a L2P issue lol.

I doubt that.

It actually does. It isnt hard to figure out the skillbars of your opponent when you are actually paying attention to what he/she does.

Trashkan · June 2017

I am not talking about cyridiil either this is in battlegrounds where lag is not an issue. I am not some noob pvper I have been doing this a long time and when I start to enjoy it these A.C builds expose themselves making it not so fun. I don't use animation canceling to the max even though i use it and we all use it without knowing like weapon swaps and block cancels. I play my toon the way he was intended to be used. I don't have issues killing these a.c proc wearing builds. It just sets you up at a disadvantage from the get go by having to break free or roll then my stamina is gone then I have to heal and my magika is half gone.

I challenge any one of you l2p trolls to a duel any time and you can use your a.c macro slice and we will see who stands on top. @ trashkan n.a p.c

spiiros · June 2017

Trashkan wrote: »

I am not talking about cyridiil either this is in battlegrounds where lag is not an issue. I am not some noob pvper I have been doing this a long time and when I start to enjoy it these A.C builds expose themselves making it not so fun. I don't use animation canceling to the max even though i use it and we all use it without knowing like weapon swaps and block cancels. I play my toon the way he was intended to be used. I don't have issues killing these a.c proc wearing builds. It just sets you up at a disadvantage from the get go by having to break free or roll then my stamina is gone then I have to heal and my magika is half gone.

I challenge any one of you l2p trolls to a duel any time and you can use your a.c macro slice and we will see who stands on top. @ trashkan n.a p.c

Animation Cancelling... BUILDS?

I'd love to duel you, but I'm on PS4. My sides though... omg.

Trashkan · June 2017

Yes animation cancellation builds.

Trashkan · June 2017

And ya builds that are built around a 1 button macro that uses animation canceling to gain an advantage on the rest.

You play console I wouldn't expect you to understand what p.c players deal with.

Azurethe · June 2017

Remember when losing to someone meant they were a better player? Me neither

Waffennacht · June 2017

AC isn't cheating.

But it's really not realistic to expect players to be able to counter it in most circumstances.

When you can AC to make Selene instant, from an ability to that stuns, a player can die before the CC break animation (that cannot be cancelled...) is finished.

Dying in 1 moment, (closer to 2 secs but less time than CC animation) isn't a l2p issue. Quite frankly it's a "yeah your build is completely unviable due to it's necessity of reaction time"

You either have a build that can withstand 15-20k burst combos - or you run one

ofSunhold · June 2017

shrug

Azurethe wrote: »

Remember when losing to someone meant they were a better player? Me neither

Does this possibility even occur to people? I guess those would be the ones not making "game is broken" forum threads.

Durham · June 2017

cant even play PVP right now ... the lag is horrid does not matter everything you posted until they fix that

BigES · June 2017

Most threads that preface themselves with "this isn't a L2P issue!"... are a L2P issue.

I didn't want to reply to this thread, but I'm concerned that since ZoS edited it, people might read it and take it to heart.

I'm just going to itemize areas where you're wrong (there are a lot).

1. You can see most attacks. ZoS actually prioritized animations several patches ago to make them more visible. Most attacks are predictable if you play enough.

2. Most people are not block canceling their animations in PvP. Ever got your stamina drained out of nowhere? Its because you block cancelled. The most intense animation canceling you're going to see in PvP is typically a light attack weave or a bar swap animation cancel.

3. Getting hit by 5 attacks simultenously has little to do with animation canceling, and more to do with proc sets (which need to be adjusted or removed).

4. How do you kill these mythical, overpowered animation canceling min/maxing Gods? I don't know. Build smarter? Build better? I mean... what did you want the answer to this question to be? "Well uh, I mean, he was a better opponent, but uh, you see... I want my character to win because ___________". You fill in the blank here because there's literally no logical answer to that question other than be the better/smarter player. Did you want victories to be complete randomness?

5. If you think everyone is YouTubing themselves to victory, you're wrong. Most top players just watch and communicate with other players to get strategies and ideas that they take and morph into their own unique spinoffs. What is your point here anyways? You want those guys/gals to stop? Making cool and unique builds and theory crafting is one of the best aspects of this game.

6. You stated PvP is mashing buttons and not reaction based? What? Seriously, what? PvP is entirely about reaction time, self-awareness, and adaptability. Positioning yourself. Footwork and clipping through the enemy. When to cleanse. When to push and time abilities. PvP is very little about "rotation". Optimal rotation is a PvE concept.

7. You made the point that you cannot be competitive without taking time to understand the game (reading guides, whatever). I don't know how to even reply to this? Sound pretty reasonable to me. What is the alternative to that? There is nothing to learn about the game and you just log and its Minecraft?

8. Play as you like - what is your vision of play as you like? Just slop skills on your bar you think look cool, and there is no thought process into how to build your character?

9. Optimizing your build and min/maxing - similar to your comment above, what is your goal here? That optimizing your build is a bad thing, and it should have no bearing on how powerful your character is? Again, whats the alternative?

Having the unfortunate pleasure of reading your post, it just sounds like you're having issues coping with the fact that the game is challenging and difficult, and the very thought that what you're doing might be wrong is not settling well with you.

Dr.NRG · June 2017

The cancelling is not the problem its the proc set and poisons on top of it. Take cancelling away and the combat will be so dumbed down with no skil requirement that hundreds of ppl will quit. Its bad enough with the proc and poisons meta atm taking almost all skilled gameplay away.

The game is moving in the wrong direction with combat through not requiring ppl to learn much about it anymore and dumbing it down to no cp and choice of sets. Take cancelling away, you might as well get rid of pvp entirely.

It is so f***g frustrating when you take the time to get good in pvp and are able to consider yourself in the top 10% when after every new patch your aint getting better while noobs getting stronger and stronger by just slapping on procs and poisons.

Animation cancelling is good for the game suggesting otherwise you are probably too lazy to learn it, do not understand game mechanics or are simply incompetent. No offense guys but is simply how it is.

Everyone can learn it it is not that hard and once you got it down you gain a vertical progression again through getting better and more skilled using it at right moment, with the right skills and right combo!!

Waffennacht · June 2017

Dr.NRG wrote: »

The cancelling is not the problem its the proc set and poisons on top of it. Take cancelling away and the combat will be so dumbed down with no skil requirement that hundreds of ppl will quit. Its bad enough with the proc and poisons meta atm taking almost all skilled gameplay away.

The game is moving in the wrong direction with combat through not requiring ppl to learn much about it anymore and dumbing it down to no cp and choice of sets. Take cancelling away, you might as well get rid of pvp entirely.

It is so f***g frustrating when you take the time to get good in pvp and are able to consider yourself in the top 10% when after every new patch your aint getting better while noobs getting stronger and stronger by just slapping on procs and poisons.

Animation cancelling is good for the game suggesting otherwise you are probably too lazy to learn it, do not understand game mechanics or are simply incompetent. No offense guys but is simply how it is.

Everyone can learn it it is not that hard and once you got it down you gain a vertical progression again through getting better and more skilled using it at right moment, with the right skills and right combo!!

You know...

Animation Cancelling is solely an offensive style... I mean I can't cancel my wards and have my opponent flop over dead.

You realize you're incentivizing only top end offensive builds or "cancerous" unkillable builds. By saying the only way to play PvP is by using similar practices you're polarizing and homogenizing the game right?