Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Ubisoft did this with Rainbow Six. They cancelled planned content and delayed the release of new operator's to devote time to the health of their game. Pissed a lot of people off, but in the end I think it shows they're solidly invested in the future of that game.

https://rainbow6.ubisoft.com/siege/en-us/news/152-289775-16/year-2-season-2-operation-health

One Tamriel was announced - people complained about not recieving promised quarterly DLC content (included in subs), but a base game patch instead.

Homestead was announced - people pissed themselves for not recieving promised quarterly DLC content that is included in subs (read: already paid for) but another base game patch.

Morrowind was announced as fee-based expansion - people went ape-*** for not recieving their already paid for promised quarterly DLC content.

And know imagine if ZOS decides to put off the next two content uploads that were already promised (and to an extend pre-paid by subbers). What do you think will happen?

Fixing bugs, exploits, shifting balances should happen incrementaly, weekly with each patch maintenance. Every time you alter a line in that huge game's code an unintentionally change/ bug can occure somewhere else. Delaying content to get off one giant bug fix will not magicaly solve every problem the game has. You see that right now with many patches they upload.

And it isn't like Zeni says "*** it" and doesn't do their homeworks. Maybe it crossed your mind that some things are much more complex than you can tell from a player-only PoV. It's not their hobby , they don't do it just for fun. It's their work, it pays their rents. I believe they already work hard to get things done.

Okay, the super hostile route is one way to go I suppose. Not what I'd have done but to each their own.

You could say all this same stuff about Ubisoft and Rainbow Six too. People were pissed. Similar comments to what you just said. But there is such a thing as over promising. And in the opinion of Ubisoft, it was worthwhile to take the hit to provide players with a more stable game in the long run and a more stable platform from which to design. And after the initial week or two of angry mob comments, the community has come to kind of welcome it (kind of).

Look at it this way, console players haven't been able to get a full VMoL run in like 6 months. How do you release a new trial when the last one you built isn't stable? And how can you fix the last one when you immediately start designing a new one.

No one is saying they HAVE to do it. No one is saying everyone would be happy if they did. But it is probably worth considering. Just the opinion of some, no need to spit vitriol.

lordrichter wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

ESO needs a solid 6 months of just picking up the pieces of all the broken crap they've left along the way of pushing out content way too early.

Give us some quality of life improvements in the base game. New options, menus. Work on server performance. Work on bug fixes and coding errors.

Stop making DLC. Take a breath. Fix the game. Then go back to making new content.

That is suicide, in my opinion. The only way they are going to be able to do that is to hire additional development staff and prohibit them from working on new content.

What?

Explain why devoting their existing development resources to polishing the existing game would require them to hire MORE developers.

It would be suicide to re-task their existing developers for this.

My feeling is that the majority of the players would not be interested in an "intervention" where there was no content. We have had one already, prior to Console release, and it would be a storm of "ZOS lies" every time they missed a DLC or Chapter date.

So, the closest thing to the intervention, while still maintaining the content delivery schedule, would require additional developers that can go back over existing content and clean it up and finish it.

Content delivery schedule? The content delivery schedule is the problem!

What ever happened to quality over quantity?

Predetermined deadlines impede true creativity and development. Why do you think every new zone they come up with feels so cookie cutter?

Elder Scrolls dungeons and areas used to be well-thought. Why do you think people love the offline games so much? Dungeons used to be hand crafted. The last real custom feeling zone/area in ESO was Craglorn.

The current development team might have this ingenuity, but who knows. If you force them into this quarterly content creation box, you're going to get repetitive feeling zones and content. And also broken content.

In a perfect world you would have a studio split into various divisions, I'm not gonna list them individually but one division is tasked with maintenance (generally mid-level, familiar with code, with senior staff for the more tricky work) and another division responsible for new content creation.

If ZeniMax Studios had the resources to produce a "AAA" MMO and buy out Bethesda then they should have the finance to maintain a properly staffed studio but alas... it's all about the bottom line, and the feeling I get is that they don't see this game as a long-term investment.

@Franieck

It's refreshing to have a reasonable and logical discussion on these forums. Props to you! Who'd have thought people could have dissenting opinions but still discuss things reasonably!!

Couple points:

You would think the group finder would be something easy to fix, but time and again we have been proven wrong. I just don't think they have the resources to dedicate a couple coders to look at it exclusively. I personally think it has something to do with cross-alliance play, as it seemed to really break with One Tamriel, but that's just me.

But that very case is kind of indicative to me that they could benefit from powering down the content creation part for a quarter, then combine clockwork city and whatever the other dlc is into one big package. Then they could truly devote resources to things like fixing group finder, fixing the mount bugs (where you're running and come to a stop hitting invisible pebbles), fixing the rates at which objects load in the game (who doesn't love running across an invisible bridge in COA2 that hasn't loaded yet). By taking the time to devote to base stuff like that, which wasn't addressed in One Tamriel or Homestead, then you could solidify the platform and builder even bigger and better things down the line.

I agree with the PVP vs PVE split. They already have a mechanism for that (Battlespirit), why they didn't make the crit changes on proc sets through BattleSpirit instead of a game wide nerf is beyond me. They have all the capability in the world to make corrections to one game mode without impacting the other using the Battlespirit mechanism.

Just an opinion on the forum. haha

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

You would think the group finder would be something easy to fix, but time and again we have been proven wrong. I just don't think they have the resources to dedicate a couple coders to look at it exclusively. I personally think it has something to do with cross-alliance play, as it seemed to really break with One Tamriel, but that's just me.

As far as we know, there could not even be any coding issues, but the problem residing on the amount of people queuing up or not, etc.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

But that very case is kind of indicative to me that they could benefit from powering down the content creation part for a quarter. Then they could truly devote resources to things like fixing group finder, fixing the mount bugs (where you're running and come to a stop hitting invisible pebbles), fixing the rates at which objects load in the game (who doesn't love running across an invisible bridge in COA2 that hasn't loaded yet). By taking the time to devote to base stuff like that, which wasn't addressed in One Tamriel or Homestead, then you could solidify the platform and builder even bigger and better things down the line.

Those are the issues why you want them to stop developing content? Mount bugs and object loading rates? Uhm, how about you just lower your graphics?

SanTii.92 wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

You would think the group finder would be something easy to fix, but time and again we have been proven wrong. I just don't think they have the resources to dedicate a couple coders to look at it exclusively. I personally think it has something to do with cross-alliance play, as it seemed to really break with One Tamriel, but that's just me.

As far as we know, there could not even be any coding issues, but the problem residing on the amount of people queuing up or not, etc.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

But that very case is kind of indicative to me that they could benefit from powering down the content creation part for a quarter. Then they could truly devote resources to things like fixing group finder, fixing the mount bugs (where you're running and come to a stop hitting invisible pebbles), fixing the rates at which objects load in the game (who doesn't love running across an invisible bridge in COA2 that hasn't loaded yet). By taking the time to devote to base stuff like that, which wasn't addressed in One Tamriel or Homestead, then you could solidify the platform and builder even bigger and better things down the line.

Those are the issues why you want them to stop developing content? Mount bugs and object loading rates? Uhm, how about you just lower your graphics?

Oh, you mean a non-coding issue wherein the game itself can't handle the load of the player base? Good heavens. I guess we'll just have to trim the fat and get rid of players so our game can handle the load... Man I want that LOL button. That's good for the overall health of the game. Just put a new error message when you get kicked out of a dungeon or battleground queue. "Sorry, our game is only intended for 50 players at a time. Please try again in two years. Thank you."

Uhm, how about no. How about there's a long list of bugs, those are just some common ones that can usually achieve consensus without someone making a snide comment. Guess not!! How dare we hold a developer to baseline standards. Just make everything look like Assassin's Creed 1, then you can have your 10 hours of clockwork city content bug free!

I still get terrified of jumping near rocks because of that bug that will have my character slow falling in mid air.

I still don't bother with group finder because it's so dodgy.

I still have to restart my game every 60 minutes to fix the frame rate bug.

Yep, they definitely need to take time out and fix this engine up. UI and graphics updates across the board while they're at it would also be awesome.

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Can you really blame them though?

If players keep buying/subbing for whatever content you release, no matter how buggy it is, no matter how many bugs from old content keep being ignored,etc why would ZoS even try to actually fix them?

Why would they waste X amount of time/money to fix something already released if they can instead gain money by selling something that takes like 1/10 of the time to make, like a mount or a house.

You could say that some people are really loyal to the Elder Scrolls IP, or that the majority doesn't care about certain bugs because they don't affect what they do in the game, or maybe most players haven't played a another MMO and have a low quality standard and think that these kind of stuff is normal,etc.

Bottom line is if PLAYERS keep supporting buggy/incomplete/mediocre content, then don't expect it to get better any time soon.

Not every bug in the game presses some trigger in every player. A lot of the things that people complain about in the forums are things that I never see in the game.

As for the incomplete features, it is what it is. Were I to hold out until ZOS finishes something, I wouldn't have had any of the fun in the game that I have had over the last 3 years. Yeah, I wish they would finish stuff, but it is not enough for me to stop playing, or demand that they stop doing content until they can take the time to do it right.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Ubisoft did this with Rainbow Six. They cancelled planned content and delayed the release of new operator's to devote time to the health of their game. Pissed a lot of people off, but in the end I think it shows they're solidly invested in the future of that game.

https://rainbow6.ubisoft.com/siege/en-us/news/152-289775-16/year-2-season-2-operation-health

ESO lost a lot when they put PC on hold because they forgot to keep enough people on to finish the consoles.

Players got bored and left. Many didn't come back.

Worst idea ever to put new content on hold.

Tell that to Ubisoft. The biggest thing they've fixed in Operation Health is the matchmaking. Players have started flocking back to the game, especially the high-level ranked players.

The content kids show up and do the 10 hours of questing for a DLC, then go away until the next one drops. Rich Lambert said as much. Do you think they will care if a dlc is pushed back a quarter? No. But will the core player base feel better about investing their time in a game after the devs show their commitment to the long-term health of it?

Worth some thought. Ubisoft is actually doing this, so we have a great case-study for it. "Worst-Idea ever" is hardly constructive commentary.

At no point did I say do this, just saying its worth considering.

lordrichter wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

What ever happened to quality over quantity?

This is the pervasive problem at ZOS. They take the extra time, and go the extra distance, to drive home "average". Except it takes no extra time or effort to do that.

If they are going full tilt right now, and successfully achieving "average", then the only way they are going to go to the next level is by spending more money on development. Stopping content is going to do nothing but restrict revenue. Without the revenue, they would not be able to fully address the issues people want to have addressed. They would not even bother with "average"... they would be "get whatever we can get done, as fast as possible".

BigES wrote: »

Predetermined deadlines impede true creativity and development.

This is a fundamental change in how they do what they are doing. ZOS is entirely schedule driven, and they have bigger dreams than their development team can deliver within that schedule. Thus, we get nothing that is "knock your socks off" exceptional*. This is something that someone like BGS might be able to get away with, but ZOS is on an assembly line and they have quotas. It would be nice for them to release when ready, instead of on a schedule, but I don't see this happening.

* Except the music. Somehow, they seem to deliver.

I appreciate your constructive viewpoint, but still disagree. See Xander's post below yours. 101 sales strategy for any successful business is customer retention. How to you plan to keep that guy engaged in the game when its crashing on a consistent basis? How do we get him hooked, and buying crowns. Subscribing to ESO plus? Completing all the mass amounts of DLC that exist for him to play since he's a new player? You think you'll achieve that when he zones into Orsinium to complete the main quest line, and crashes 10 times repeatedly in content that's been out for nearly a year? You think you'll keep him in Crydoill when he zones in, gets blasted by Viper Selene procs, teabagged, and logs out?

When you create new content, you expand the scope of the team that fixes bugs and balances the game. That's pretty basic logic. Any of this new content you create (albeit probably maybe from a separate team) still needs to undergo the same bug checking, error fixing, and QA/QC coding issues that the base game currently has. This is a major reason why old content just gets left behind.

Let me give you an example. The adds in Cyrodiil current still use the old version of Total Dark. Old not in the sense that you can still CC break it, but old in the fact that it still reflects skills that it shouldn't. For example, Toppling Charge will stun you (not a projectile). Dawnbreaker will get reflected (clearly not a single target spell). This is just one bug among many that just gets deprioritized when the development team members responsible for fixing it are over in Clockwork whatever and Horns of the whatever trying to rush out new DLC in whatever amount of predetermined months.

had a little game to pass the time with my guild name something that isnt broken, so far one person has come up with 1 ability that works without random bugs or is straight broken. Every single piece of the UI is broken raid frames health bars the chat box, the game should be shut down and fixed at this point its a disgrace

Tandor wrote: »

Besides, in a MMO you can never keep everyone happy all of the time!

True, but ZoS could at least try and keep MOST happy. I see way more negative on the forums and in game than I do positive, and it is just getting worse. I haven't heard 1 person in game say they like the most recent patch.... not ONE. You know what I have heard? People in trials guilds rage quit and talk negatively about this game because they are tired of all the problems with end game content. The disconnects, the lag, the constant grinding to get a decent trait on a weapon/armor, the waste of time end game content is because you basically spend gold just to play end game content since you cannot sell anything you earn to recoup costs to run it.

The sustain changes are terrible. Nobody wants to spend 8 minutes of a 10 minute fight holding down heavy attack. The bound items are a complete joke to people who run trials. Yay, I can trade all this gold jewelry to one of the 11 others in my group who more often than not already have 6 of the same damn thing.

Didn't read every post but I want to say that I'm 100% for the next big patch being all QOL fixes and server-side adjustments.

Balancing also needs to be brought to the forefront of the list too.

I'm good with the content I have at the moment - fix the damn game already.