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VHOF Changes Inappropriate for an Incremental Patch
Oreyn_Bearclaw
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I am not saying the changes themselves are bad, but ZOS has essentially fundamentally redesigned 2 of the 5 boss fights in an incremental patch. This should have been done before it went live or it should have waited for the next major patch and been coupled with a leaderboard wipe. Most groups are still working on getting their first clear or things like speed run achievements. You just made it that much harder for new groups to catch up.
Also, when you say things like "The stun effect from Static Cascade now applies correctly even if you block," it just makes you sound incompetent as developers. This was painfully clear since the PTS that blocking was the way to handle the stun. So either, A. you just admitted your incompetence by acknowledging that a major bug went live, or B. you decided to redesign a trial mid patch because you didnt like what groups were doing, which shows you didnt pay attention during testing. I dont see an option C....
Changes for those that missed them.
Hunter-Killer Fabricants:
-Venom Injection now does less damage in Normal difficulty.
-Refabricated Spheres will now be affected by Super Charged in Veteran difficulty when all eight are active.
-Rending Leap will now be cast more reliably by the Hunter-Killer Fabricants.
-The stun effect from Static Cascade now applies correctly even if you block.
-Shock Lash will now always finish casting once it starts.
Pinnacle Factotum:
-The Pinnacle Factotum will no longer be shielded by the Liminal Transformer while it is active.
-Increased the health of the Pinnacle Factotum in Veteran difficulty.
-The Liminal Transformer will now overcharge and be active more often in Veteran difficulty.
-Short Circuiting Centurions will now activate earlier.
-Pressure Release now increases in damage with prolonged exposure in Veteran difficulty.
-The stun effect from Shockwave now applies correctly even if you block.
-Short Circuiting Centurions can no longer be damaged until they are fully activated.
Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on June 19, 2017 7:45PM Also, when you say things like "The stun effect from Static Cascade now applies correctly even if you block," it just makes you sound incompetent as developers. This was painfully clear since the PTS that blocking was the way to handle the stun. So either, A. you just admitted your incompetence by acknowledging that a major bug went live, or B. you decided to redesign a trial mid patch because you didnt like what groups were doing, which shows you didnt pay attention during testing. I dont see an option C....
Changes for those that missed them.
Hunter-Killer Fabricants:
-Venom Injection now does less damage in Normal difficulty.
-Refabricated Spheres will now be affected by Super Charged in Veteran difficulty when all eight are active.
-Rending Leap will now be cast more reliably by the Hunter-Killer Fabricants.
-The stun effect from Static Cascade now applies correctly even if you block.
-Shock Lash will now always finish casting once it starts.
Pinnacle Factotum:
-The Pinnacle Factotum will no longer be shielded by the Liminal Transformer while it is active.
-Increased the health of the Pinnacle Factotum in Veteran difficulty.
-The Liminal Transformer will now overcharge and be active more often in Veteran difficulty.
-Short Circuiting Centurions will now activate earlier.
-Pressure Release now increases in damage with prolonged exposure in Veteran difficulty.
-The stun effect from Shockwave now applies correctly even if you block.
-Short Circuiting Centurions can no longer be damaged until they are fully activated.
12
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Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I am not saying the changes themselves are bad, but ZOS has essentially fundamentally redesigned 2 of the 5 boss fights in an incremental patch. This should have been done before it went live or it should have waited for the next major patch and been coupled with a leaderboard wipe. Most groups are still working on getting their first clear or things like speed run achievements. You just made it that much harder to catch up for new groups to catch up.
Also, when you say things like "The stun effect from Static Cascade now applies correctly even if you block," it just makes you sound incompetent as developers. This was painfully clear since the PTS that blocking was the way to handle the stun. So either, A. you just admitted your incompetence by acknowledging that a major bug went live, or B. you decided to redesign a trial mid patch because you didnt like what groups were doing, which shows you didnt pay attention during testing. I dont see an option C....
The developers are a strange group.Rest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.2 -
DjMuscleboy02✭✭✭✭✭Yeah that stun change is pretty huge, as is the overpower change to the spheres on Boss 1. I honestly think it's easier to learn to kite the bosses around and killed the spheres, but it's definitely not faster and it's definitely not clean. Add in those stuns and oh boy. Melee will be pretty fun in there now, and stam will be twice as fun.Brodor - PC NA - ESO's only pure bodybuilding guild
Hodor, but stronger0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »Yeah that stun change is pretty huge, as is the overpower change to the spheres on Boss 1. I honestly think it's easier to learn to kite the bosses around and killed the spheres, but it's definitely not faster and it's definitely not clean. Add in those stuns and oh boy. Melee will be pretty fun in there now, and stam will be twice as fun.
Yep, the change is undeniably huge. Again, not commenting on the merits of the change, just they way in which it was handled.1 -
DjMuscleboy02✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »Yeah that stun change is pretty huge, as is the overpower change to the spheres on Boss 1. I honestly think it's easier to learn to kite the bosses around and killed the spheres, but it's definitely not faster and it's definitely not clean. Add in those stuns and oh boy. Melee will be pretty fun in there now, and stam will be twice as fun.
Yep, the change is undeniably huge. Again, not commenting on the merits of the change, just they way in which it was handled.
Second boss will be pretty cool now though, I kinda like the change to the shield. I'm curious to how often we will have to go up top now too.Brodor - PC NA - ESO's only pure bodybuilding guild
Hodor, but stronger0 -
Danksta✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If they're going to make it so the stun goes through block maybe they should make it so you can reliably break CC.BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA3 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭While i agree that this hurts the competitive scene a bit, i think it's worth for the long run, if this means we will eventually get balance changes between patches. Withholding a balance fix for another month or two if far worse than this.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »Yeah that stun change is pretty huge, as is the overpower change to the spheres on Boss 1. I honestly think it's easier to learn to kite the bosses around and killed the spheres, but it's definitely not faster and it's definitely not clean. Add in those stuns and oh boy. Melee will be pretty fun in there now, and stam will be twice as fun.
Yep, the change is undeniably huge. Again, not commenting on the merits of the change, just they way in which it was handled.
Second boss will be pretty cool now though, I kinda like the change to the shield. I'm curious to how often we will have to go up top now too.
Hard to know how it will play out, guess we will find out tonight. If I am interpreting them correct, the boss got more health, but takes damage more of the time, coupled with the fact that we will have to go upstairs more often. The first and third thing on that list make for a longer fight, the middle (takes damage when upstairs) makes for a shorter fight. It will depend how those were balanced.0 -
DjMuscleboy02✭✭✭✭✭Oh please don't let this get to Xbox, we don't even get score for the adds lol.
I think that's 2 (maybe 3?) patches away for us, and this would be the 4th patch. We'll get that when we get hm scores, I think. Shortly after they nerf the hp builds.Brodor - PC NA - ESO's only pure bodybuilding guild
Hodor, but stronger0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭While i agree that this hurts the competitive scene a bit, i think it's worth for the long run, if this means we will eventually get balance changes between patches. Withholding a balance fix for another month or two if far worse than this.
I would be the first to cheer if the started making balance changes on a more frequent basis. I would much rather they adjust skills by a percent or 2 in order to see how it plays out, then to do blanket nerfs all at once. That said, this is not a balance change, this a mechanics/design change. The two are very different IMO.0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The stun changes are a bit strange, but I think are mostly just nuisances than anything major.
I'm not sure why they made that design change on the second boss, since with the old design, it seemed to fit with their notion of having recovery and burn phases in fights, with the topside phase being a recovery phase of sorts on the bottom. Oh well.
The first boss change, though, I do welcome. The groups running in my guild have always done that fight using the "intended" method of killing every sphere, so the change has no effect on us. And I personally think that the various methods of ignoring the mechanics--while effective--are very cheesy.
In any case, if the intent is to force people to do the mechanic then the change today isn't quite enough. When all 8 spheres are up, they enter the same enrage mode that they do when one of the bosses dies early. But with 7 spheres up, then everything behaves the same as before, which means that groups intent on continuing the cheese strategy can try to do so by always killing just one or two spheres, the ones nearest the tanks.
If @ZOS_Finn really wants to force groups to always follow the mechanic as intended, then something like this would make more sense:- 1-4 spheres: no enragement
- 5 spheres alive: 2 spheres enraged
- 6 spheres alive: 4 spheres enraged
- 7 spheres alive: 6 spheres enraged
- 8 spheres alive: all 8 spheres enraged
Edited by code65536 on June 19, 2017 8:04PMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorPC/Console Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Group Buff PanelsOther Add-Ons: Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭it was clear Zos wanted the mechanics to mean something. Especially in a trial design around mechanics vs high dps.
The mechanics are pretty much the same. Just requires dealing with them as it is clear Zos intended.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »it was clear Zos wanted the mechanics to mean something. Especially in a trial design around mechanics vs high dps.
The mechanics are pretty much the same. Just requires dealing with them as it is clear Zos intended.
Then it should never have made it to live, as people were stack and burning on the PTS, so we are back to ZOS not paying attention to their testing. I have cleared the first boss both ways. I actually prefer mechanics myself, but again, I am not here to debate the merits of the changes. Sidebar, the shock change is MAJOR.1 -
dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭The change to the orbs means you have to destroy them now, right? If so, I'm not surprised, since that was obviously a mechanic ZOS did not intend on players skipping.
I'm surprised they didn't make any changes to the last boss, though. I figured they'd try to make him more challenging.0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »it was clear Zos wanted the mechanics to mean something. Especially in a trial design around mechanics vs high dps.
The mechanics are pretty much the same. Just requires dealing with them as it is clear Zos intended.
Then it should never have made it to live, as people were stack and burning on the PTS, so we are back to ZOS not paying attention to their testing. I have cleared the first boss both ways. I actually prefer mechanics myself, but again, I am not here to debate the merits of the changes. Sidebar, the shock change is MAJOR.
This again goes back to the NDA. Look back at the feedback thread for the trial on the PTS. It's all so vague. "4th boss was fun!" "Final boss was boring!" "I noticed I can't be healed on the 2nd boss?"
Not one person in that feedback thread said, "Hey on the first boss, I noticed that you can ignore the mechanics if you did X, Y, and Z".
In the past, ZOS's dungeon team gathered most of the information they needed by watching streams of players attempting the content. Because then they can observe the strategies we come up with and see first-hand how we react to the mechanics. The NDA was stupid because it meant no streams of PTS attempts and basically cut off their primary--and best--form of feedback.
I suspect that this is why we see them scrambling to change things post-release. Things like the Balance and Igneous Shield changes apparently took less time to do. And things to stop the first boss cheese apparently took more time to come up with and implement.Edited by code65536 on June 19, 2017 8:16PMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorPC/Console Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Group Buff PanelsOther Add-Ons: Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information4 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »While i agree that this hurts the competitive scene a bit, i think it's worth for the long run, if this means we will eventually get balance changes between patches. Withholding a balance fix for another month or two if far worse than this.
this is not a balance change, this a mechanics/design change. The two are very different IMO.
A mechanic change with the intention of rebalancing the difficulty. Was the latest grim focus change a rebalance? I would so, yeah.
They should've reset the leaderboards? Maybe, but it isn't that meaningful. Today's scores won't hold in a month anyways.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.0 -
DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I just don't think there should be unblockable stuns in trials, and here we are with massive, massive unblockable stuns lol.Unfortunate magicka warden main.
PC/NA Server
Fairweather Friends
Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.2 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Heavy attacking is fun.
It's so much fun, that the endgame community getting smaller amidst a new trial releasing.
Props to ZOS on that.....4 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭Heavy attacking is fun.
It's so much fun, that the endgame community getting smaller amidst a new trial releasing.
Props to ZOS on that.....
What does this has to do with anything.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.3 -
Solinur✭✭✭DisgracefulMind wrote: »I just don't think there should be unblockable stuns in trials, and here we are with massive, massive unblockable stuns lol.
Worst thing is the situation for the tanks.@Solinur Pact EU - PC (Solinur: Templar - Magicka DD, Moves-like-Günther: Sorcerer - Stamina DD, Kinara Sol: Templar - Stamina DD, )
Addon Author0 -
UrbanMonk✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have a very simple question? WHO ARE THE ONES THIS CHANGE IS DIRECTED TO? Are devs making these changes to make content harder for appx 0.1% of the player base that has already cleared it and out of rest 0.9% will clear it? They themselve (devs) incompetently allowed to go though despite of having a full cycle of PTS testing and coming now that it wasn't working as intended.
Do you even *** know what you intend to work and what not? or you just happen to like to chime in every few weeks and say, hey this is now working as intended because we *** up last time or because it's too easy for you 0.1% and we just can't stand by it, so we are going to *** it for everyone.
F F S get you acts together. And stop publishing half ass work. If i pay for a movie, i want a full movie not the one with a few scenes deleted or changed later after I've seen it, as the director now doesn't like them.
We are the ones paying you real life money which goes to paying your salaries, SO START RESPECTING YOUR CUSTOMERS and start delivering the finished products as you should, not the half baked pie, which we can't eat or even throw.Urban.Monk
-Monk I- Magden- ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
-Tsürügi- MagBlade- ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
-Bantam Bomber- MagPlar- AVA28
-Hot Nöödle- MagDK - AVA37
-Pablo Necrobar- StamCro- AVA24
youtube.com/c/UrbanMonkGaming
Easiest mDK for vMA and vVH- https://youtu.be/dUxQO1FO1XQ
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Balance for the Sake of Balance is no Balance at all.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have a very simple question? WHO ARE THE ONES THIS CHANGE IS DIRECTED TO? Are devs making these changes to make content harder for appx 0.1% of the player base that has already cleared it and out of rest 0.9% will clear it? They themselve (devs) incompetently allowed to go though despite of having a full cycle of PTS testing and coming now that it wasn't working as intended.
Do you even *** know what you intend to work and what not? or you just happen to like to chime in every few weeks and say, hey this is now working as intended because we *** up last time or because it's too easy for you 0.1% and we just can't stand by it, so we are going to *** it for everyone.
F F S get you acts together. And stop publishing half ass work. If i pay for a movie, i want a full movie not the one with a few scenes deleted or changed later after I've seen it, as the director now doesn't like them.
We are the ones paying you real life money which goes to paying your salaries, SO START RESPECTING YOUR CUSTOMERS and start delivering the finished products as you should, not the half baked pie, which we can't eat or even throw.
@ToxicPAWS
That's a good question. We have had a few nights to play with the changes at this point. The best of the best groups are doing what they did before, stacking the first boss and healing the enraged spheres (nice try ZOS). The second boss really isnt any harder, he just has 15 million more health (shhh... @Ghost-Shot ), but less invulnerable time. The extra health was NOT needed as the fight is already way too long. Above average groups had to spend an evening relearning these two fights and now get through them a little slower. To the average groups, good luck in there.
Also, an unblockable stun with no CC immunity is an absolutely terrible mechanic.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on June 22, 2017 9:48PM0 -
Ghost-Shot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I have a very simple question? WHO ARE THE ONES THIS CHANGE IS DIRECTED TO? Are devs making these changes to make content harder for appx 0.1% of the player base that has already cleared it and out of rest 0.9% will clear it? They themselve (devs) incompetently allowed to go though despite of having a full cycle of PTS testing and coming now that it wasn't working as intended.
Do you even *** know what you intend to work and what not? or you just happen to like to chime in every few weeks and say, hey this is now working as intended because we *** up last time or because it's too easy for you 0.1% and we just can't stand by it, so we are going to *** it for everyone.
F F S get you acts together. And stop publishing half ass work. If i pay for a movie, i want a full movie not the one with a few scenes deleted or changed later after I've seen it, as the director now doesn't like them.
We are the ones paying you real life money which goes to paying your salaries, SO START RESPECTING YOUR CUSTOMERS and start delivering the finished products as you should, not the half baked pie, which we can't eat or even throw.
@ToxicPAWS
That's a good question. We have had a few nights to play with the changes at this point. The best of the best groups are doing what they did before, stacking the first boss and healing the enraged spheres (nice try ZOS). The second boss really isnt any harder, he just has 15k million more health, but less invulnerable time. The extra health was NOT needed as the fight is already way too long. Above average groups had to spend an evening relearning these two fights and now get through them a little slower. To the average groups, good luck in there.
Also, an unblockable stun with no CC immunity is an absolutely terrible mechanic.
15 billion more health??? Holy ***!1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ghost-Shot wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I have a very simple question? WHO ARE THE ONES THIS CHANGE IS DIRECTED TO? Are devs making these changes to make content harder for appx 0.1% of the player base that has already cleared it and out of rest 0.9% will clear it? They themselve (devs) incompetently allowed to go though despite of having a full cycle of PTS testing and coming now that it wasn't working as intended.
Do you even *** know what you intend to work and what not? or you just happen to like to chime in every few weeks and say, hey this is now working as intended because we *** up last time or because it's too easy for you 0.1% and we just can't stand by it, so we are going to *** it for everyone.
F F S get you acts together. And stop publishing half ass work. If i pay for a movie, i want a full movie not the one with a few scenes deleted or changed later after I've seen it, as the director now doesn't like them.
We are the ones paying you real life money which goes to paying your salaries, SO START RESPECTING YOUR CUSTOMERS and start delivering the finished products as you should, not the half baked pie, which we can't eat or even throw.
@ToxicPAWS
That's a good question. We have had a few nights to play with the changes at this point. The best of the best groups are doing what they did before, stacking the first boss and healing the enraged spheres (nice try ZOS). The second boss really isnt any harder, he just has 15k million more health, but less invulnerable time. The extra health was NOT needed as the fight is already way too long. Above average groups had to spend an evening relearning these two fights and now get through them a little slower. To the average groups, good luck in there.
Also, an unblockable stun with no CC immunity is an absolutely terrible mechanic.
15 billion more health??? Holy ***!
Ha! oops.
Fixed it for you.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on June 22, 2017 9:48PM0