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Idea - Remove Gear Level Requirements - Expand Crafting

Avran_Sylt
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Reasoning

Impact on New Players
With gear no longer having level requirements, this means that any piece of gear that a new player picks up can be used by them for the remainder of their time spent playing. For new players this makes quest rewards have more impact, as that gear piece they receive will no longer have stat deterioration as soon as they level up. This means that players who start harvesting early can make full use of the upgrade materials that they receive from harvesting, if they choose to do so. This also means that new players can more easily sell these named items to other players who may have a desire to collect quest reward items. And rather than worrying about which piece of gear has the least stat deterioration, they can instead focus on improving their gear setup from an earlier start, allowing the potential for faster transition to harder content, as they'll likely have full sets once they reach higher levels, instead of partial sets since they scrapped the level 20 set piece item once they found a better armor rating for their level 40 character.

It allows players to have the "Jackpot" situation at all levels of character progression. While exploring the world and opening chests, they may be lucky enough to find a desirable item/trait piece. Normally that piece would be under leveled (not CP160) so for the most part, that RNG blessing just becomes useless if the player isn't currently considering its use and will get scrapped once they outlevel it. Without level restrictions that RNG blessing will actually have meaning, as the player could decide to sell it on market, or use it in an end-game build.

It would also ease the gear grind for players who may not have as much time on their hands, as questing and opening chests will net them a piece of armor that they can use throughout their leveling experience.

Impact on Players Post First Character
Once a player has leveled a character up to CP160, if they found some gear that could be interesting if used on another class, in order to test it they'll need to create another character and fully level it to 50 in order to see if they like it. For some players who have the time to do so and the patients to grind, this can be done in a day. However, for players who prefer to level by questing, or don't have enough time, or both, leveling a new character to tr out a set could take weeks or more. Meaning more often than not, that set will get deconned, sold on the market, or stuffed into the bank. If this were not the case, and the player could equip that set from level 1 these players may have more reason to bring out a new character other than having them as storage mules. As they could level why trying out the set.

This would allow for more experimentation for players at all levels, while still keeping optimal builds locked behind character attributes and skill line leveling.

Impact on Old Players

For players who already have all of their gear, this wouldn't do much. As they're already CP160 and thus have access to all gearing options. However, ZoS could re purpose the now negatively impacted crafting system to create more Horizontal Content for these players, I'll cover the rough suggestions below
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Handling Crafting


Since Gear Levels Will are removed with this idea, that means a lot of materials are going to be useless, and getting a crafting level to 50 is pointless (since that 10 points for writs is pointless if you can craft rubedite already). This will need to be addressed.

Here are my thoughts:
Armor and Weapons


With the materials not being tied to levels, the different materials will only be used to adjust the base look of armor, and would allow players to craft different colored weapons end-game.

Since there is no level based gear, this means that using more materials is pointless, but I don't think it should, as it constitutes a drain for player mined resources, so this is the idea:

The player can use more materials in order to improve the total durability of an item. the less they use the more quickly it breaks, and vice versa. The player must improve their (Metalworking, Tailoring, Woodworking) passive in order to craft more durable items.

Repair costs for Armor and Weapons is now slightly parabolic when you repair items at a trader depending on the total durability.

The player can now repair their own weapons/armor using spare materials at a crafting station, but the number of materials used is somewhat parabolic if the player's crafting passive is not as high as the one used to craft the item. It is linear if it is.

Writes would ask for the highest durability piece the player can make.
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Enchanting


With the removal of character levels, this will leave several potency runes useless, and I don't think it should be so. So this is the thought:

There are 16 levels of potency runes, I recommend reducing that to 15 (so there is a mid-point)
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1-10 : 0/14
5-15 : 1/14
10-20 : 2/14
15-25 : 3/14
20-30 : 4/14
25-35 : 5/14
30-40 : 6/14
35-45 : 7/14
40-50 : 8/14
CP10-CP30 : 9/14
CP30-CP50 : 10/14
CP50-CP70 : 11/14
CP70-CP90 : 12/14
CP100-CP140 : 13/14
CP150 : 14/14
CP160[s/]

Weapon Enchantment:

the Potency runes current "level" will be used to influence the damage of the enchantment, and the Internal Cooldown of the enchantment. based on the fraction above.

Current Enchantment Values are obtained when using the 7/14 Potency Rune

At 14/14 a Weapon Enchantment will have twice the power (any duration is the same), but have twice the cooldown
At 0/14 a Weapon Enchantment will have Half the power (any duration is the same), but have half the cooldown.

Short recharge enchantments would be useful for proc builds and status builds, while high damage enchantments will be better suited to burst damage, and the middle can be used to keep it the same.

At first the player will only be able to craft the short ICD low damage enchantments, but the higher Potency skill passive they have, the more they have control over the effects of the enchantment.

Armor Enchantments:

[y] is equal to the opposing or complementary effect ratio.

Armor enchantments:
- Are now able to add resource regen, this is obtained by using the (x>0)/14 potency runes. It has ((14-x)/14)*Max Resource and ((x<=14)/14))*[y] Resource Regen
- Ratio = (Max Regen Bonus of Jewelry Glyph)/(Max Resource Bonus of Armor Enchantment)

Jewelry Enchantments: (WIP)

[y] is equal to the opposing or complementary effect ratio

Resource Regen:
-Regen Essence Runes are now able to add Cost Reduction , this is obtained by using the (x>0)/14 potency runes. It has ((14-x)/14)*Resource Regen and up to ((x<=14)/14)*[y] Cost Reduction.
-Ratio: (Max Cost Reduction Bonus of Jewelry Enchantment)/(Max Regen Bonus of Jewelry Glyph)

Damage: Can now add Resistances
- Damage Essence Runes are now able to add Physical or Spell Resistance by using the (x>0)/14 potency runes. Has ((14-x)/14)*Damage and has up to ((x<=14)/14) Cost Reduction
-Ratio = (Max Resistance bonus of Jewelry Glyph)/(Max Damage Bonus of Jewelry Glyph)
(opposite holds true for Resistance Glyphs)

Resistances: Can now add Damage
- Resistance Essence Runes are now able to add Physical or Spell Resistance by using the (x>0)/14 potency runes. Has ((14-x)/14) Resistance (Physical/Spell) and up to ((x<=14)/14)*[y] Damage
- Ratio = (Max Damage Bonus of Jewelry Weapon Glyph)/(Max Physical Resistance bonus of Jewelry Armor Glyph)

Specific Resistances: Can now Add Broadened Resistance
-Fire/Frost/Disease/Poison/Shock/ Essence Essence runes can add Spell or Physical Resistance using a (x>0)/14 potency rune. It has ((14-x)/14)*Resistance (Fire/Frost/Disease/Poison/Shock) and up to ((x<=14)/14)*[y] Resistance (Spell/Physical).
-Ratio: (Max Resistance (Spell/Physical) Bonus of Jewelry Enchantment)/(Max Resistance (Fire/Frost/Disease/Poison/Shock) Bonus of Jewelry Enchantment)

You can see the pattern.

Shielding/Bashing

Potion Speed/Potion Boost

Writs Would just ask for a regular enchantment
Foods

-add unique effects to foods to differentiate them, lower other stats on effected foods. (I.E. Fishy Stick Grants Increased Swim Speed)
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Alchemy


-Solvents Have an innate effect added to them (these can easily be changed if they don't fit). There are no longer XIII poisons/potions and such.
Potion Solvents:

Natural Water : No Bonus
Clear Water : Detection
Pristine Water : Restore Health
Clensed Water : Unstoppable
Filtered Water : Increase Physical Resistance
Purified Water : Increase Spell Resistance
Cloud Mist : Gradual Restore Health
Star Dew : Speed
Lorkhan's Tears : Vitality

Poison Solvents:

Grease : No Bonus
Ichor : Maim
Slime : Breach
Gall : Vulnerability
Terebinthine : Ravage Health
Pitch-Bile : Fracture
Tarblack : Hindrance
NIght-Oil : Invisibility
Alkahest : Gradual Ravage Health
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Writs would ask for a particular potion

Your Thoughts?

The culmination of these threads:
Edited by Avran_Sylt on June 19, 2017 11:56PM
  • Nemesis7884
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    I don't have an issue with the gear lvl IF
    - the focus on expansions is rather on horizontal progression (new skills or expand skills) instead of vertical gear grinding
    - I would REALLY like seing crafting expanded to where you are able to upgrade any gear to the max Level so that you don't have to replace anything which is just unbelievable grindy and boring if you have several chars
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @Nemesis7884

    Oh yeah, horizontal progression is really something that needs more work (currently okayish for new hardcore players, but for casual players the horizontal progression is locked behind several grind walls), but I think they need to flesh out the basic game mechanics first.

    Though, if you can upgrade an armor piece to the next level, why have to upgrade it in the first place if the major grind is already being replaced?
  • JKorr
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    I'll guess you are only referring to the dropped gear sets. Otherwise "the major grind" can be as simple as asking a crafter to make you a new set.

    For those players who don't "grind" to get the dropped sets because they aren't really concerned about having teh bestest mostest ultimate gear for pve, there really isn't any reason to change anything.

    My characters are close to cp601 [596, atm]. I've never done any "major grinding" to level. I quest, I craft, I do mages/fighter's daily quests sometimes. I still haven't gotten all the faction zone dolmens on my main character that I've been playing since early access.
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @JKorr

    In particular I refer to the grind of a new character to level 50 just in order to try out that piece of gear effectively.
  • Taleof2Cities
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    A well thought-out post with good details ... except for the large elephant in the room:

    You're assuming the removal of character levels which many players (and likely ZOS) don't support.
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @Taleof2Cities

    That's the thing though. For this particular method, Character levels wouldn't need to be removed. This just removes the impact of character level on what gear you choose. Character levels can still be used for attribute gains, content locks, and skill point accrual.

    Hence the title of this thread being solely gear level removal.
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on June 18, 2017 5:14PM
  • idk
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    Since the consensus from those threads is to leave the game as it is, concerning the topics, why are we changing crafting?

    Unless it is just a means to make another thread it seems to be a moot topic.
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @Giles.floydub17_ESO

    I was using those threads to refine my idea and build upon it to create this, yes, the consensus was against various other parts (Char level Removal, Gear CP cap increase), but in the case of the argument against removing gear levels, well for the most part there was hypocrisy but a general consensus was to at least keep gear levels the same. But unfortunately had the reasoning behind it that they didn't want to regrind again.

    For the most part de-leveling gear will do barely anything to players who already have all their stuff, but would allow easier integration of new players into game content while also allowing those players who do quests to level up to have unique gear pieces actually stay with them, rather than discarding them as soon as you out level it.

    The reason that I suggest a change to crafting is that as a result of de-leveling gear, it's the system that is the most impacted, as there are many aspects of player crafting that use materials that become useless once the player reaches at least CP160. Once gear was de-leveled those materials would be completely useless. So, in order to keep them around (and increase the horizontal gameplay available), I changed crafting in the way mentioned above.
  • timb16_ESO85
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    This will remove the little value current crafting has. If this would be implemented, you would only need one set of training gear for all your characters, since this is usable at all levels. Furthermore, nobody would ever craft the lower level items. People don't care about loooks if their equipment constantly breaks and needs repairs. Same with the enchantments, why remove levels, only to add levels back in in the form of cooldowns and damage potency? All this will serve is that no gear ever gets made again, that all items obtained from quests are per definition worthless (except for the starting islands) and that the little vertical progrssion in this game gets even further removed, leading to people feeling no more powerfull at lvl 50 compared to 1, since scaling, same gear sets, and cp always being enabled.
  • kargen27
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @Giles.floydub17_ESO

    I was using those threads to refine my idea and build upon it to create this, yes, the consensus was against various other parts (Char level Removal, Gear CP cap increase), but in the case of the argument against removing gear levels, well for the most part there was hypocrisy but a general consensus was to at least keep gear levels the same. But unfortunately had the reasoning behind it that they didn't want to regrind again.

    For the most part de-leveling gear will do barely anything to players who already have all their stuff, but would allow easier integration of new players into game content while also allowing those players who do quests to level up to have unique gear pieces actually stay with them, rather than discarding them as soon as you out level it.

    The reason that I suggest a change to crafting is that as a result of de-leveling gear, it's the system that is the most impacted, as there are many aspects of player crafting that use materials that become useless once the player reaches at least CP160. Once gear was de-leveled those materials would be completely useless. So, in order to keep them around (and increase the horizontal gameplay available), I changed crafting in the way mentioned above.

    No the reasoning behind it was the grind would be pointless in a short time because higher level gear doesn't change any aspect of the game except the number on the gear. Battles do not get easier nor tougher. It is change simply for the sake of change. Akin to Microsoft changing the start button to the go button and making it green instead of blue. And maybe just for fun move it from bottom left to top right.

    We get that you do not want to spend time leveling a character, spend the time learning to craft nor the time to gather dropped armor sets. You want the microwaved burrito instead of preparing a meal. Truth be told the microwaved burrito isn't that good. If this were put into play there would be so little incentive to play the game people would leave in droves. As it is now players are hungry for more end game content.

    MMOs survive on content being repeated. Your idea is removing almost all incentive out of repeating content. The fun thing is you realize this as shown by your solution to enchanting. You realize just how bad no levels will be so in a thread about removing levels you instead just create a different leveling system for everything but base gear.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @timb16_ESO85

    As it stands now you really don't need much more than 5 different training sets for alts (if you want to do it effectively)
    As a CP160, do you ever craft Iron gear for anything other than training gear for an alt?
    For enchantments, if you read, they're not levels, but differing ways of spreading out when your damage procs.
    Except for those quests that give unique set pieces. (which I think should be expanded upon)
    If getting better gear made you more powerful, I'd get the reason against this, but all getting new gear does is just get you back to the bar which was raised for you once you've out-leveled your gear.

    @kargen27
    "No the reasoning behind it was the grind would be pointless in a short time" So, why then have that short grind from levels 1-CP160 if the grind itself never increases with further expansions of the game.

    I do think that characters need to be leveled in some form or another, What YOU fail to see is that the ever constant slight increases of gear levels, whatnot, is the Microwaved burrito. Press a button and wait for a single, simple thing (better stats). The meal is something that is made from various different aspects of the game (foods, armortype, weapons, tactics). The meal is Horizontal Progression.

    SUBSCRIPTION based MMO's survive on content being repeated by number chasers, and is easily done so by releasing expansions that require players to re-grind their gear.

    NON-SUBSCRIPTION based MMO's survive by allowing players in depth vanity systems (Crown Store, Housing) and providing enough Horizontal Growth to bring and keep casual players. Since the number crunchers are gonna figure out ways to circumvent paying because "I'm leet and can do all this without droppin' a cent plebs"
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on June 18, 2017 8:37PM
  • kargen27
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @timb16_ESO85

    As it stands now you really don't need much more than 5 different training sets for alts (if you want to do it effectively)
    As a CP160, do you ever craft Iron gear for anything other than training gear for an alt?
    For enchantments, if you read, they're not levels, but differing ways of spreading out when your damage procs.
    Except for those quests that give unique set pieces. (which I think should be expanded upon)
    If getting better gear made you more powerful, I'd get the reason against this, but all getting new gear does is just get you back to the bar which was raised for you once you've out-leveled your gear.

    @kargen27
    "No the reasoning behind it was the grind would be pointless in a short time" So, why then have that short grind from levels 1-CP160 if the grind itself never increases with further expansions of the game.

    I do think that characters need to be leveled in some form or another, What YOU fail to see is that the ever constant slight increases of gear levels, whatnot, is the Microwaved burrito. Press a button and wait for a single, simple thing (better stats). The meal is something that is made from various different aspects of the game (foods, armortype, weapons, tactics). The meal is Horizontal Progression.

    SUBSCRIPTION based MMO's survive on content being repeated by number chasers, and is easily done so by releasing expansions that require players to re-grind their gear.

    NON-SUBSCRIPTION based MMO's survive by allowing players in depth vanity systems (Crown Store, Housing) and providing enough Horizontal Growth to bring and keep casual players. Since the number crunchers are gonna figure out ways to circumvent paying because "I'm leet and can do all this without droppin' a cent plebs"

    Number crunchers are going to try the new gear. They are going to try different combos of the new gear and they are going to use that new gear with different skill rotations seeking that highest number. Offering new armor sets and new monster helms will keep them going in the search for the prefect set up. No need to raise the levels of that gear. In fact if you do not raise the levels of the gear the number crunchers will have their old gear to go back to if the new gear doesn't quite meet their requirements. Raise the levels and all you do is turn the crunchers into grinders.

    "For enchantments, if you read, they're not levels, but differing ways of spreading out when your damage procs."

    Levels. If being able to craft a 13/13 before I can a 14/14 is a requirement that is a level.

    "What YOU fail to see is that the ever constant slight increases of gear levels, whatnot, is the Microwaved burrito. Press a button and wait for a single, simple thing (better stats). The meal is something that is made from various different aspects of the game (foods, armortype, weapons, tactics). The meal is Horizontal Progression. "

    This just sounds like you are agreeing with me. You started the thread by saying you wanted no character/gear leveling. You hop in and boom, finished product. You are right the meal is made from various aspects of the game and you should add them in at the appropriate time. Things gotta simmer. You gotta heat the grill before you throw on the food and you don't want to throw it all on at once. Or in game play you gotta get to level 10 to get level 10 gear.

    At some point though (I'm getting hungry) the meat is done and cooking it longer will only dry it out (160) and you make it better through the sauces and spices you've added and compliment it with a few ears of corn or maybe potato salad.

    At some point the armor reaches the max level and you begin complimenting it with other things.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @kargen27

    Or: instead of time spent leveling the character to reach the final form of the armor being the "meal cooking" It's the player perfecting their rotations and figuring out what works best for them and "complimenting it with other things". (Edit: this being them adding spices and what not till they enjoy their completed "meal" (build))

    On the enchantments, it's removing the Character Level Requirement, I still think that gaining enchanting (Skill) levels should be beneficial, such as allowing the player to transform max stat gear enchantments into regen types, mixing and matching other enchantments, giving them greater control over how their weapon enchantment functions, and using specific glyph combinations in order to produce an effect using different runes.
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on June 18, 2017 9:06PM
  • MLGProPlayer
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    Scaling ensures that any gear cap increase is 100% pointless. You will end up doing the EXACT same damage you did at the old level.

    I really don't get the obsession a few players (you're in the minority based on even your own polls) have with increasing the level cap. It does nothing for the game.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on June 18, 2017 9:07PM
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @MLGProPlayer

    Exactly, so remove the armor level requirements entirely.
  • kargen27
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @kargen27

    Or: instead of time spent leveling the character to reach the final form of the armor being the "meal cooking" It's the player perfecting their rotations and figuring out what works best for them and "complimenting it with other things". (Edit: this being them adding spices and what not till they enjoy their completed "meal" (build))

    On the enchantments, it's removing the Character Level Requirement, I still think that gaining enchanting (Skill) levels should be beneficial, such as allowing the player to transform max stat gear enchantments into regen types, mixing and matching other enchantments, giving them greater control over how their weapon enchantment functions, and using specific glyph combinations in order to produce an effect using different runes.

    You are looking at it as a one or the other thing. I see it as an and type situation. While you are leveling your character you are also learning skills and how to use those skills. 160 is a goal you can reach while chasing skyshards and all the other things you need to chase to gain skills and learn to use them.

    To me it doesn't make much sense to say hey here is your end game character with his/her end game gear now get out there and start playing.

    There is another reason for having leveling of some kind in a game. It is the reward factor. There were some studies done where people could play one of two types of slot machines. One you had a better chance of winning but when you won nothing happened other than you got a voucher for the money won. The other you had less chance to win but when you did lights blinked bells chimed and all kinds of things happened. People by a huge margin preferred the lights, bells and whistles. That flash of light and noise you hear each time you level up... most people respond to that in a positive way. They actually look more forward to the flash of light than the attribute point. It is human nature and most games (especially games like Candy Crush) take full advantage of that.

    Levels make the game more exciting and enjoyable to play for most people just because of the way we are wired.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @kargen27

    Yeah, the character level, the CP, those are blinking lights. I'm not talking about removing them. They should to be in the game. (My opinion has been swayed via the polls and arguments supplied)

    However, as gear is combat leveled to your character now, there is no "advancement" gear wise. Instead of going for gear with bigger and better numbers, since all the combat leveling shite, getting leveled gear is all about getting back to what you once were.

    The "Reward" factor here is grinding dungeons and getting the exact gear you want. That grind should stay, that's what'll keep players playing, wanting that 'perfect' trait. The specific piece of the Horizontal Gameplay.

    But, I don't think GEAR level RESTRICTIONS should play a part in it, as for the most part end-game players will only look at it as an annoyance and it'll separate newer players from older players.

    You ever get that guy in your group that , by the luck of the draw, get's that sharpened VO sword? But that sword is useless because he's a CP80 when he got it? THAT is the slot machine flashing its lights but the lights burning out.
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on June 18, 2017 10:01PM
  • kargen27
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    "You ever get that guy in your group that , by the luck of the draw, get's that sharpened VO sword? But that sword is useless because he's a CP80 when he got it?"

    Yep and when it happens to a guild mate we laugh and tell him that is probably the only one he will ever get then we laugh again. Often profanity is involved and that makes us laugh even more.

    And no that isn't the flashing lights. The flashing lights are actual flashing lights. No bells and whistles when you get a sword it just shows up in your inventory.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @kargen27

    Metaphors man, the flashing light is a metaphor. Someone grinding Darkshade Cavern for Divines Netches touch won't see flashing lights when they get it, but they go for that set piece / trait combo for the same reason. It's the carrot at the end of the stick.
  • kargen27
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @kargen27

    Metaphors man, the flashing light is a metaphor. Someone grinding Darkshade Cavern for Divines Netches touch won't see flashing lights when they get it, but they go for that set piece / trait combo for the same reason. It's the carrot at the end of the stick.

    Wasn't a metaphor when I posted about flashing lights and bells, it was an actual thing. People want some hoopla. That is why we get a flash of light and some sound when our characters level. It adds to the experience. In fact for most the flash is more anticipated than the actual reward.

    We are getting off track.

    Simply put the game needs content to be repeated for sustainability and it needs an end game goal. The current system while not perfect provides both.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @kargen27

    True, it does need repeatable content. but how often do you farm for level 20 gear? How often do you farm for level 40 gear?

    Is it not the general consensus to say: Gear doesn't matter till you hit CP160?
  • kargen27
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @kargen27

    True, it does need repeatable content. but how often do you farm for level 20 gear? How often do you farm for level 40 gear?

    Is it not the general consensus to say: Gear doesn't matter till you hit CP160?

    While leveling (I don't grind) I match sets as best I can. When I start a character I decide if he can wear crafted gear or only what he picks up along the way. Also make a few other decisions just to mix things up. One character stayed in level 10 gear and I didn't apply CPs until he hit 50. With levels you enter a dungeon or join group content when you feel your character is ready for it. Usually happens well before hitting 160. You get a few drops, outgrow them and go back again when you hit 160. Maybe even go back a few times in between for a variety of reasons. If there were no levels there would be much less reason to repeat quite a bit of the games content. Beyond the equipment were there no levels gaining skills and putting them to use would be much more mundane and boring. Again we like the bells and whistles.

    Remember when it took forever to advance a vet level? People complained. You could go through 10 normal levels basically in one zone. All of a sudden when hitting vet levels one zone was about one level. One vet level compared to 10 normal levels basically for advancement but people didn't like how long it took to move up one level. The forums had a lot of threads complaining instead of vet levels they should have just raised the normal level to 100. Your idea wants to take away the rewards for player progression outside of just the numbers and that has been met with harsh criticism each time it has happened.

    For whatever reason just like the slot machines people would rather have the bells and whistles than a better payout. Look at the difference in reaction to winners on Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune. Wheel of Fortune there are lights blinking all kinds of visual and auditory stimuli happening and people who win just a little prize are jumping around all over the place. Jeopardy win twenty thousand and it is a smile and a handshake. You can get people excited (and charge them more money) if you put on a show.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @kargen27

    right, I get that. In order to have player retention there needs to be bells and whistles. Character levels, Skill levels, CP levels all fit that role.

    However, while leveling, do you find gear levels to be of any use? As you said, you had a character in level 10 armor until he hit 50. I presume once you hit 50 you had that character fitted into CP160 gear? Do you find getting gear that you'll inevitably chuck for better gear (CP160) stimulating at all? Since you know there is a Hard Cap?
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on June 19, 2017 1:23AM
  • kargen27
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @kargen27

    right, I get that. In order to have player retention there needs to be bells and whistles. Character levels, Skill levels, CP levels all fit that role.

    However, while leveling, do you find gear levels to be of any use? As you said, you had a character in level 10 armor until he hit 50. I presume once you hit 50 you had that character fitted into CP160 gear? Do you find getting gear that you'll inevitably chuck for better gear (CP160) stimulating at all? Since you know there is a Hard Cap?

    For a couple of my characters switching gear was a part of leveling. The thing is I am 10 characters in. Think about that new player on his first character. He is still discovering things and learning how to play. Gear progression is a very real part of his game experience. You get to decide things like do you keep three level twenty set pieces for the two set bonuses or switch to the level 25 gear you just found. For me that is an important part of the game. You get introduced to sets and start thiking about what you might prefer.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @kargen27

    Which is a fair enough of a point. A very valid one being the decision between set bonuses or higher level gear. Which I would conceded my argument to if this lasted throughout the entirety of the character progression, which, since it caps at 160, and not the current CP cap, it fails to do.

    My suggestion would be to add in more sets that lower level players have access to such that they start deciding between set bonuses that fit their playstyle rather than which of the two has the better defensive bonus.

    An Aside:

    I would also love to make a change to my armor/weapons section of the original post, as I thought of a way that might add more progression for the player if they decide to craft, and that is:

    Iron ===> Rubedite
    On a scale of the current materials, the higher grade materials will give a weapon/armor better base durability, but will cost exponentially more money to repair at a merchant (favoring players who put some points into the respective skill lines to repair that gear effectively). Lower Tier armor will have lower base durability, but cost much less to repair. Repair kits will no longer repair a percentage of durability, but a fixed number based on the grade of the repair kit. Thus allowing low level players to purchase the low cost low level repair kits to repair their armor on the go. The actual numbers would need to be tested to figure out a good number. But the general idea would be for the low tier armors to favor players who frequent merchants, and higher tier players who don't frequent merchants quite as often and have some crafting skill.
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on June 19, 2017 1:45AM
  • DaveMoeDee
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
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    @kargen27
    "No the reasoning behind it was the grind would be pointless in a short time" So, why then have that short grind from levels 1-CP160 if the grind itself never increases with further expansions of the game.
    ...

    That isn't a grind. That is playing the game. Perhaps 1-50 on alts is a grind, because you are repeating content over and over again just to level and you can't repeat content with end game gear drops because < cp160 BiS gear is pointless. But the first character not a grind. There is a ton of content that gets you well past cp160.

    If you don't want to play the content on even a single character, that is your problem. The game is what it is.
  • kargen27
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    DaveMoeDee wrote: »
    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
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    @kargen27
    "No the reasoning behind it was the grind would be pointless in a short time" So, why then have that short grind from levels 1-CP160 if the grind itself never increases with further expansions of the game.
    ...

    That isn't a grind. That is playing the game. Perhaps 1-50 on alts is a grind, because you are repeating content over and over again just to level and you can't repeat content with end game gear drops because < cp160 BiS gear is pointless. But the first character not a grind. There is a ton of content that gets you well past cp160.

    If you don't want to play the content on even a single character, that is your problem. The game is what it is.

    The grind (in my mind) would be if they increased armor level from 160 to 180 people wanting best gear would be starting from scratch at getting that gear. People who spent weeks in vMA trying for a sharpened bow would find themselves back in vMA. After that grind nothing would have changed except that there would be a 180 where a 160 used to be. I expressed this opinion and what you quoted was a reply to my post.

    I have ten characters now that are 160 and I leveled all of them by exploring and doing content. I did grind one from 45-50 but decided that wasn't enjoyable at all. I like taking my time with every character and do things a little different on each one to keep the game interesting. Hijacking the tread for a moment but when housing came out I decided to get a house for each character I play (a few have retired or become crafters). They can only put achievement furnishings in their home if they have the achievement. That means some of my characters are back to doing quests just for furniture. Brought back some purpose and fun to the game for me. I never meant to come off as if I thought doing the content was a grind. I enjoy it.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @DaveMoeDee

    Eh, to each their own. If I'm gonna do storylines and quests, I'm going to do it at the max level (since CP160 is the max level for gear) so I can get the full benefit. Immersing myself in the story while at the same time collecting the best version of the reward without having to repeat the content.
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @kargen27

    Actually, that hijacking of the thread gave me an idea: What if some furnishings could only be placed in your house only if you had the achievement, and were required to have CP160?
  • DaveMoeDee
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @DaveMoeDee

    Eh, to each their own. If I'm gonna do storylines and quests, I'm going to do it at the max level (since CP160 is the max level for gear) so I can get the full benefit. Immersing myself in the story while at the same time collecting the best version of the reward without having to repeat the content.

    Very few quests give gear of value in the base game. What is there except for the final bit of loot from the Fighters Guild? It is mostly just named but not set gear. There is no extra benefit from waiting.

    Guild DLC gives set pieces for main quests, but if you played base game, you are already cp160.
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