Should Character Levels be Removed? (Outdated - See Thread Linked)

Avran_Sylt

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/353550/should-the-gear-cp-cap-be-raised-from-cp160-should-gear-have-level-requirements

Seeing as for Dungeons you're battle leveled, you're battle leveled in PvP, and all overworld content scales to your player level, the question remains: Should character levels in their entirety be removed?


Unpolished method of implementation

The question would be where to allocate attribute and skill points that the character accrues during the character level grind, and my suggestion would be this:

(Simplified)
Each time you level a Class Skill line to a specific point, you gain [x] skill points.
Attribute points can all be allocated as soon as the player creates a character, (or unlocked via the racial level)

(More complicated, and would likely over saturate skill points)
Each time you learn a skill or gain rank with any skill line (at a specific point), you gain [x] skill point(s), the higher the skill level the more skill points you get. (I.E. 1 skill point at level 2, 1 Skill point at level 10, 2 Skill points at level 20, etc.)
All 64 attribute points can be allocated from the start.

But this is highly unpolished, perhaps you've a better suggestion?

LorenzoSober

Leave character levels as they are currently

So they make it play more like a TES game like everyone wanted initially and now you are sugesting to push it off again?

Avran_Sylt

@LorenzoSober

My experience has really only been with oblivion. and in that you gained character levels by increasing your major skills (which in this case could be considered class skills). In this game though you gain levels by just killing things. could reach level 50 by just using one set and one ability.

So by removing the character level, and placing skill points onto increasing skill lines, in my opinion it bridges that a little better.

FearlessOne_2014

I Don't Care

Currently playing another MMO while my salt levels are thru the roof with ZOS. Quite frankly at this point. If something was to happen, where no one could log into ESO from months or even years. At this point I wouldn't be able to care much less.

Kode

Could be interesting

Removing levels would make the progression mechanic default to skill point attainment, skill unlocking and skill leveling. I think if that system were tweaked a bit, it could be a good move in the right direction.

I have been an advocate of creating an achievement point progression system, it could easily involve the responsibilities of the old leveling system.
Redistribute skill points gained from leveling into a new achievement point track... this would double to encourage players to play how they want, they will eventually get their points from that tree via dungeons, bosses, crafting, exploration, ect.

Tie champion point system use into the achievement track as well, after X points you unlock champion points.

Throw in some additional rewards like dyes, personalities, titles, ect at key champion point milestones.

Remove levels from a character's display and replace it with a title or rank, similar to pvp and directly tied to overall achievement.

Tandor

Leave character levels as they are currently

Just no to these game-changing polls. People keep complaining about how ZOS make what more often than not turn out to be pretty minor changes and then along comes another poll that wants to turn the game upside down and inside out. Why can't we just play the darn thing?!

andreasranasen

Leave character levels as they are currently

Yes, let's be the death of this game and change the core game a million th time

Morimizo

Could be interesting

One of the thinnest aspects to character progression is the fact that we can learn a new skill, place it on a bar, never use it once, and have it max out from simply opening treasure chests and discovering locations (or other non-combat related activities, though it might take longer).

If levels (and CPs) were tied directly to skill progression, like the original Morrowind, I would welcome that change.

Wifeaggro13

Leave character levels as they are currently

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Seeing as for Dungeons you're battle leveled, you're battle leveled in PvP, and all overworld content scales to your player level, the question remains: Should character levels in their entirety be removed?


Unpolished method of implementation

The question would be where to allocate attribute and skill points that the character accrues during the character level grind, and my suggestion would be this:

(Simplified)
Each time you level a Class Skill line to a specific point, you gain [x] skill points.
Attribute points can all be allocated as soon as the player creates a character, (or unlocked via the racial level)

(More complicated, and would likely over saturate skill points)
Each time you learn a skill or gain rank with any skill line (at a specific point), you gain [x] skill point(s), the higher the skill level the more skill points you get. (I.E. 1 skill point at level 2, 1 Skill point at level 10, 2 Skill points at level 20, etc.)
All 64 attribute points can be allocated from the start.

But this is highly unpolished, perhaps you've a better suggestion?

if anything we need a level cap increase and additional class abilities in the trees post 50.

idk

Leave character levels as they are currently

A Level 10 character cannot possibly compete with a max level character. They lack skills, skill points and passives.

Unless you just want to make new characters the lazy way and just give them every skill point imaginable, unlock every skill and passive including morphs to where they are fully leveled like a template character but that would be well on the way to making this game a crappy PoS not worth playing by anyone with decent skill. It would be worse than when they made the game B2P.

There is a certain quality of player that does avoids pay walls as much as possible and anything that creates actual work. A point is, last night I was in a random GF group, usually have good experience. While tanking for this group I as doing up to 17% of the damage while build as an actual tank. I was not doing great damage, but there mostly lvl 35-45 dps were doing less than 2500 dps which is utterly bad to put it nicely. I was also having to heal myself because it was almost like I was not getting any heals.

Placing those players automatically at max level in vet dungeons would be absolutely stupid and the idea proposed would do just that.

TheShadowScout

Leave character levels as they are currently

I'd have been happy with it if they had done it like that from the beginning...
...but I am okay with levels as well.

Changing it now?
Nah.
Why spend their limited code-jockey budget on that when they can give us more stuff to have fun with instead?

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

You could tie vet dungeons to a specific Undaunted Guild Skill Level. Gaining undaunted levels requires you to do the dungeons, dungeon achievements. Hell, you could make the undaunted skill line levels 1-50 on a new experience curve. You gain access to new dungeons the higher your Undaunted Skill level, gain small undaunted level xp from random dungeons, and once you reach a certain level you start to gain access to the Veteran versions of those dungeons and pledges.

The poll is just a question. I want to test the waters to see what the general feel people have for the idea.

Jollygoodusername

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

A Level 10 character cannot possibly compete with a max level character. They lack skills, skill points and passives.

Unless you just want to make new characters the lazy way and just give them every skill point imaginable, unlock every skill and passive including morphs to where they are fully leveled like a template character but that would be well on the way to making this game a crappy PoS not worth playing by anyone with decent skill. It would be worse than when they made the game B2P.

There is a certain quality of player that does avoids pay walls as much as possible and anything that creates actual work. A point is, last night I was in a random GF group, usually have good experience. While tanking for this group I as doing up to 17% of the damage while build as an actual tank. I was not doing great damage, but there mostly lvl 35-45 dps were doing less than 2500 dps which is utterly bad to put it nicely. I was also having to heal myself because it was almost like I was not getting any heals.

Placing those players automatically at max level in vet dungeons would be absolutely stupid and the idea proposed would do just that.

Seems like a problem with the game's basic combat mechanics, rather than L2P. Those same people could have excelled in a previous MMO, or perhaps their just new to the genre? Either way I think we can all agree, ESO has some of the worst gearing, combat and skill progression of any MMOrpg.

Bouldercleave

Leave character levels as they are currently

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Currently playing another MMO while my salt levels are thru the roof with ZOS. Quite frankly at this point. If something was to happen, where no one could log into ESO from months or even years. At this point I wouldn't be able to care much less.

And yet you cared enough to let come onto the forums and us know....

MasterSpatula

Other

If you're gong to have global scaling you might as well not have levels.

Mind you, I still think global scaling is a bad idea.

Pwnyridah

Leave character levels as they are currently

This is not a valid question that "remains" after your previous points. There any many different grinds in this game, removing core leveling is not a good idea. It slows everyone down from having all classes, helps players learn the skills in the class and stop being lazy and put in work

Wifeaggro13

Leave character levels as they are currently

Jollygoodusername wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

A Level 10 character cannot possibly compete with a max level character. They lack skills, skill points and passives.

Unless you just want to make new characters the lazy way and just give them every skill point imaginable, unlock every skill and passive including morphs to where they are fully leveled like a template character but that would be well on the way to making this game a crappy PoS not worth playing by anyone with decent skill. It would be worse than when they made the game B2P.

There is a certain quality of player that does avoids pay walls as much as possible and anything that creates actual work. A point is, last night I was in a random GF group, usually have good experience. While tanking for this group I as doing up to 17% of the damage while build as an actual tank. I was not doing great damage, but there mostly lvl 35-45 dps were doing less than 2500 dps which is utterly bad to put it nicely. I was also having to heal myself because it was almost like I was not getting any heals.

Placing those players automatically at max level in vet dungeons would be absolutely stupid and the idea proposed would do just that.

Seems like a problem with the game's basic combat mechanics, rather than L2P. Those same people could have excelled in a previous MMO, or perhaps their just new to the genre? Either way I think we can all agree, ESO has some of the worst gearing, combat and skill progression of any MMOrpg.

i agree with you but many will not as this is not a game that attracts mmo players anymore. that population has long since moved on. its now a game of visitors and churn. very small pop of regulars that play the whole game and large population of churn that plays the single player content and easy pledges.

1mirg

I Don't Care

I don't really care about stuff like that, The only reason why I play this game is for the Lore and the Voice Acting Quests. Also to see the pretty sites around the world too. Levels? Champion Levels? None of that really matters to me.

leepalmer95

Leave character levels as they are currently

Its a MMO

Theres got to be some progression, this isn't a moba.

Tasear

Leave character levels as they are currently

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Its a MMO

Theres got to be some progression, this isn't a moba.

This is the answer ^

STEVIL

Leave character levels as they are currently

@Avran_Sylt

What you have left out in your Op is: What is the benefit of **SWITCHING** attribute point and skill point acquisition away from character level to skill levels? You are really *NOT* removing class levels (merely a count of overall xp gained) , just moving their functions into a different counter set that mostly still level off the same things that generate character level advancement.

So, what is the gain from this somewhat massive undertaking that warrants the transition time?

Seems to me that:

1. Right now when i have new characters i work thru monsters or quests to advance the skill lines and the character level, with really the character level coming as a matter of course. The main focus is on skill lines, getting skills slotted so they advance to moprh, getting passive unlocked etc.
2. After this change, i would do the exact same stuff except for their not being a character level unlocking skill points but instead what skill lines get to where and when detemrines it somehow thru some sort of who knows what.

So i would be doing the same stuff, with maybe an added complication to finagle skill lines for skill and att generation if it was not straightforward, so why bother? Why redo all that would have to redo if my leveling play will be much the same?

Also, right now the character level gives you a rough idea at least of the progress of opposing/allied characters it seems. Skill lines are not shown. So what, if anything, would be used to measure and display that progress? is the goal here to hide character progress from others?

Again, other than change for sake of change, what is gained?

Axoinus

Character level is already meaningless compared to hitting 160CP.

You spend ALOT more time post 160cp than you do pre-50.

Keep character levels as they are and consider sub50 tutorial levels.

Franieck

Leave character levels as they are currently

Very bad idea in my opinion. Leave it as it is! If levels were removed this would eliminate the progression feeling and therefore destroy the game for me.

Avran_Sylt

@leepalmer95 @STEVIL

Progression would be through the form of gaining skill points. The player's "Level" would now be showing the number of skill points that player has earned, which actually will give greater clarity to how much time a player has invested into a character. Currently a player can grind out level 50 in a day, but collecting all skyshards, completing skillpoint quests and dungeons are all hidden. While showing the character's "Level" as their total number of accrued skillpoints will still be somewhat vague. it'll be a bit more telling as to how much time a player has put into that character.

Not only that, but removing character level will actually let those armor pieces given in quests be of some value. Since you can actually wear them and you don't have to wait till CP160 to actually make use of them.

leepalmer95

Leave character levels as they are currently

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@leepalmer95 @STEVIL

Progression would be through the form of gaining skill points. The player's "Level" would now be showing the number of skill points that player has earned, which actually will give greater clarity to how much time a player has invested into a character. Currently a player can grind out level 50 in a day, but collecting all skyshards, completing skillpoint quests and dungeons are all hidden. While showing the character's "Level" as their total number of accrued skillpoints will still be somewhat vague. it'll be a bit more telling as to how much time a player has put into that character.

Not only that, but removing character level will actually let those armor pieces given in quests be of some value. Since you can actually wear them and you don't have to wait till CP160 to actually make use of them.

But skill points don't equal effort.

On my alts i don't need anywhere close to the amount of skill points i have on my main, its an MMO, MMO's have levels, they have progression.

I just don't see skill points as progression. Exp from killing mobs or doing quests is progression and levels is how you measure it.

idk

Leave character levels as they are currently

Jollygoodusername wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

A Level 10 character cannot possibly compete with a max level character. They lack skills, skill points and passives.

Unless you just want to make new characters the lazy way and just give them every skill point imaginable, unlock every skill and passive including morphs to where they are fully leveled like a template character but that would be well on the way to making this game a crappy PoS not worth playing by anyone with decent skill. It would be worse than when they made the game B2P.

There is a certain quality of player that does avoids pay walls as much as possible and anything that creates actual work. A point is, last night I was in a random GF group, usually have good experience. While tanking for this group I as doing up to 17% of the damage while build as an actual tank. I was not doing great damage, but there mostly lvl 35-45 dps were doing less than 2500 dps which is utterly bad to put it nicely. I was also having to heal myself because it was almost like I was not getting any heals.

Placing those players automatically at max level in vet dungeons would be absolutely stupid and the idea proposed would do just that.

Seems like a problem with the game's basic combat mechanics, rather than L2P. Those same people could have excelled in a previous MMO, or perhaps their just new to the genre? Either way I think we can all agree, ESO has some of the worst gearing, combat and skill progression of any MMOrpg.

@Jollygoodusername

Good assumption without anything to base it on does not provide anything to the discussion.

Your comment that "we can all agree on" is obviously incorrect. So far off base since many of us are still playing the game after 3 years in it. If it was anywhere near as bad as you attempt to state we would have chosen those older games we no longer play. It is so refreshing to not have combat on rails and to have primary responsibility for our own survival here in ESO.

The game's quality combat mechanics and versatility of gearing is why we have a great number of to level players and theorycrafters and why more come into the game at a decent pace.

Those players merely have to learn how to play the game which is the main point I was making. Anyone new to a game has to L2P.

Avran_Sylt

@leepalmer95

Is leveling your class skills to level 50 effort? Is roaming all of Tamriel and delving into dungeons and collecting skyshards effot? Is completing story arcs effort?

the standard for MMO's is that mindlessly grinding mobs for exp is what is the standard "effort".

Skill points acting as player level, at least for this game, would be the combination of various forms of effort, rather than just what every other MMO does.

Should character level be based on how well you can kill shite, or how much of the game you've experienced?

RIGHTEOUS_REPORT

No of course Char levels shouldn't be removed, this is madness.

Invincible

The OP is correct in some ways. Character levels are entirely meaningless, CP is all that really matters and I think zos got it right with nearly infinite incrimental power increases. You can't blow through the whole game in a week like most MMOs.

There's a whole lot I dislike about ESO, their production team and how slow the game has developed over the years. 95% of the reason I play is the graphics and story, the core MMO mechanics are simply not here and the devs don't get it.

Bouldercleave

Leave character levels as they are currently

RIGHTEOUS_REPORT wrote: »

No of course Char levels shouldn't be removed, this is madness.

Madness?!?!
THIS

IS

ZENIMAX!!!!!!

(kicks Mag DK down a black hole well)

Roovin

Leave character levels as they are currently

No