Can't get used to sustain changes. No sustain = no fun
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STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I don't think the Morrowind update made the game more interesting or skillful to play. Just more tedious.
This.
I tire. Of geting screwed. Because people wont rework the difficulty system, or something similar. Enough. Rescend the worst of the sustain changes and get on to redoing the difficulty system, if you want to appease these 'HARDCORE OR BUST' people.
Just quit the game then dude, stop torturing yourself. I just don't get it: why do people tell everyone to quit because the game is apparently trash, but they don't do it themselves? You seem to not be enjoying this game. Considered quitting?
I allready have.
I'm just here to continue to convince people to until these problems are solved, or the game goes under. Just because I left does not mean the problems are fixed, and I want to see them fixed. It isn't about me, it's about wanting a game to come back to.
And just because I quit does not mean my opinion has no merit, either, so dont even bother bringing out that old line.
Wouldn't dream of it. most gaming forums are packed with folks who dont play the game spouting negative after negative. For some reason, its a thing to try and turn folks off a game you dont play with some people.
I do not get it myself. I have left games before, stopped playing when it became no longer fun, but when i left i left... did not hang around throwing flame at those who still enjoyed it.
but that is just me. This other thing some people do, its their thing.
I just prefer doing stuff i like rather than trying to convince others to not like what they like.
But thats me.
Well, for one, (And this is the last post I'ma make off topic)
Like this community wont allready flame you if you say something is bad or needs tweaking? You've experienced this as much as anyone else. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Barring that, the only way these problems gets fixed is if more people leave and hurt the bottom line. As it is ZOS does not want your feedback, them asking for it is meerly a tradition.
People want the game to get better, their gonna have to step up and do what I'm doing. Merely talking never worked. And it's never going to.
in any community of those involved in playing a game or any such activity, there are going to be disagreements, some amicable and respectful and civil and others not so much. That is not unusual or confusing at all.
just for me, once i leave a game or activity due to not liking it, i leave. i don't hang around to goose/gander get back at those who like it or to actively pursue getting others to quit even to the possible end goal of getting the game shut down so nobody can play it as in "I'm just here to continue to convince people to until these problems are solved, or the game goes under. "
that is where i am different from others, i suppose. i would not try and drive people away from a game including and until until it goes under if it were a game i had walked away from. Just let those who like it continue. if it is really truly bad and not going to change, it will happen without me doing my best to hasten that outcome.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If you are having sustain issue you are:
A: not at max level
B: not properly weaving in heavy attacks
C: a combination of both and or not properly setup gear wise.
Sustain is just as strong in most cases this update because of the increased heavy attack resource return.
One thing that you may have missed is that vast numbers of people, since at least patch 1.3, have not wanted to use fully charged heavy attacks.
Such a play is available so to speak, but it isn't fun. I can point out how lame heavy attacks feel and how risky they are, but I can also point out that most people just haven't been using heavy attacks as a proof of my point. Fully charged heavy attack are lame.
Of course, that dislike hasn't stopped the development team from trying to stuff fully charged heavy attacks down our throats over the past several years. One doesn't go to the grocery store and find vomit flavored ice cream and, even though a rare person may like such a thing, if we did see such a good, then we would know it to be an utter waste. In the case of fully charged heavy attacks, a decent number of people are doing the equivalent of saying that we should get used to eating puke infused frozen dairy treats and that is just how things are going to be. Oh well.6 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »If you are having sustain issue you are:
A: not at max level
B: not properly weaving in heavy attacks
C: a combination of both and or not properly setup gear wise.
Sustain is just as strong in most cases this update because of the increased heavy attack resource return.
One thing that you may have missed is that vast numbers of people, since at least patch 1.3, have not wanted to use fully charged heavy attacks.
Such a play is available so to speak, but it isn't fun. I can point out how lame heavy attacks feel and how risky they are, but I can also point out that most people just haven't been using heavy attacks as a proof of my point. Fully charged heavy attack are lame.
Of course, that dislike hasn't stopped the development team from trying to stuff fully charged heavy attacks down our throats over the past several years. One doesn't go to the grocery store and find vomit flavored ice cream and, even though a rare person may like such a thing, if we did see such a good, then we would know it to be an utter waste. In the case of fully charged heavy attacks, a decent number of people are doing the equivalent of saying that we should get used to eating puke infused frozen dairy treats and that is just how things are going to be. Oh well.
What is so lame about heavy attacking? You're hitting a button and something happens. It's the exact same thing with, generally, a slightly less awesome animation. Oh darn, the humanity.
If you want vomit flavored ice cream get the just wear Selenes and Viper. Lots of "skill" and "fun" there!0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »If you are having sustain issue you are:
A: not at max level
B: not properly weaving in heavy attacks
C: a combination of both and or not properly setup gear wise.
Sustain is just as strong in most cases this update because of the increased heavy attack resource return.
One thing that you may have missed is that vast numbers of people, since at least patch 1.3, have not wanted to use fully charged heavy attacks.
Such a play is available so to speak, but it isn't fun. I can point out how lame heavy attacks feel and how risky they are, but I can also point out that most people just haven't been using heavy attacks as a proof of my point. Fully charged heavy attack are lame.
Of course, that dislike hasn't stopped the development team from trying to stuff fully charged heavy attacks down our throats over the past several years. One doesn't go to the grocery store and find vomit flavored ice cream and, even though a rare person may like such a thing, if we did see such a good, then we would know it to be an utter waste. In the case of fully charged heavy attacks, a decent number of people are doing the equivalent of saying that we should get used to eating puke infused frozen dairy treats and that is just how things are going to be. Oh well.
What is so lame about heavy attacking? You're hitting a button and something happens. It's the exact same thing with, generally, a slightly less awesome animation. Oh darn, the humanity.
If you want vomit flavored ice cream get the just wear Selenes and Viper. Lots of "skill" and "fun" there!
Like I said - I have my reasons for not liking fully charged heavy attacks. It is more fun to time skills in a quick way. It is more fun to not have attacks interrupted.
It isn't just about me though. Many players have decided that using fully charged heavy attacks isn't that interactive and isn't that fun. The proof of that is not only the constant re-balancing and incentivization of heavy attacks by the balance team since as long as I can remember, but also the fact that swaths of players still have been choosing to not use fully charged heavy attacks despite the developer's changes. If they were fun, then people would be doing them.
Your comment about proc sets is a non-sequitur.2 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »If you are having sustain issue you are:
A: not at max level
B: not properly weaving in heavy attacks
C: a combination of both and or not properly setup gear wise.
Sustain is just as strong in most cases this update because of the increased heavy attack resource return.
One thing that you may have missed is that vast numbers of people, since at least patch 1.3, have not wanted to use fully charged heavy attacks.
Such a play is available so to speak, but it isn't fun. I can point out how lame heavy attacks feel and how risky they are, but I can also point out that most people just haven't been using heavy attacks as a proof of my point. Fully charged heavy attack are lame.
Of course, that dislike hasn't stopped the development team from trying to stuff fully charged heavy attacks down our throats over the past several years. One doesn't go to the grocery store and find vomit flavored ice cream and, even though a rare person may like such a thing, if we did see such a good, then we would know it to be an utter waste. In the case of fully charged heavy attacks, a decent number of people are doing the equivalent of saying that we should get used to eating puke infused frozen dairy treats and that is just how things are going to be. Oh well.
What is so lame about heavy attacking? You're hitting a button and something happens. It's the exact same thing with, generally, a slightly less awesome animation. Oh darn, the humanity.
If you want vomit flavored ice cream get the just wear Selenes and Viper. Lots of "skill" and "fun" there!
Like I said - I have my reasons for not liking fully charged heavy attacks. It is more fun to time skills in a quick way. It is more fun to not have attacks interrupted.
It isn't just about me though. Many players have decided that using fully charged heavy attacks isn't that interactive and isn't that fun. The proof of that is not only the constant re-balancing and incentivization of heavy attacks by the balance team since as long as I can remember, but also the fact that swaths of players still have been choosing to not use fully charged heavy attacks despite the developer's changes. If they were fun, then people would be doing them.
Your comment about proc sets is a non-sequitur.
Touché about the proc set.
But ... many people liking something does not mean it's better. I've always enjoyed heavy attacks and view it as an intelligent way to play offense. I totally can animation cancel, so it's not like I HA due to lack of stick skill. I simply read online 3 years ago that HAs regain resources and decided that I'd be better served HAing a lot and ignoring my regen. I've gotten killed on this board for years by meta players for telling them to do the same, but I'm in the process of getting the last laugh ... so ... yeah ... heavy attack more.1 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »If you are having sustain issue you are:
A: not at max level
B: not properly weaving in heavy attacks
C: a combination of both and or not properly setup gear wise.
Sustain is just as strong in most cases this update because of the increased heavy attack resource return.
One thing that you may have missed is that vast numbers of people, since at least patch 1.3, have not wanted to use fully charged heavy attacks.
Such a play is available so to speak, but it isn't fun. I can point out how lame heavy attacks feel and how risky they are, but I can also point out that most people just haven't been using heavy attacks as a proof of my point. Fully charged heavy attack are lame.
Of course, that dislike hasn't stopped the development team from trying to stuff fully charged heavy attacks down our throats over the past several years. One doesn't go to the grocery store and find vomit flavored ice cream and, even though a rare person may like such a thing, if we did see such a good, then we would know it to be an utter waste. In the case of fully charged heavy attacks, a decent number of people are doing the equivalent of saying that we should get used to eating puke infused frozen dairy treats and that is just how things are going to be. Oh well.
What is so lame about heavy attacking? You're hitting a button and something happens. It's the exact same thing with, generally, a slightly less awesome animation. Oh darn, the humanity.
If you want vomit flavored ice cream get the just wear Selenes and Viper. Lots of "skill" and "fun" there!
Like I said - I have my reasons for not liking fully charged heavy attacks. It is more fun to time skills in a quick way. It is more fun to not have attacks interrupted.
It isn't just about me though. Many players have decided that using fully charged heavy attacks isn't that interactive and isn't that fun. The proof of that is not only the constant re-balancing and incentivization of heavy attacks by the balance team since as long as I can remember, but also the fact that swaths of players still have been choosing to not use fully charged heavy attacks despite the developer's changes. If they were fun, then people would be doing them.
Your comment about proc sets is a non-sequitur.
Touché about the proc set.
But ... many people liking something does not mean it's better. I've always enjoyed heavy attacks and view it as an intelligent way to play offense. I totally can animation cancel, so it's not like I HA due to lack of stick skill. I simply read online 3 years ago that HAs regain resources and decided that I'd be better served HAing a lot and ignoring my regen. I've gotten killed on this board for years by meta players for telling them to do the same, but I'm in the process of getting the last laugh ... so ... yeah ... heavy attack more.
Only a small portion of people liking something does not necessarily prove anything either. Although the number of people interested in a particular part of the game may not prove how the game should be one way or another, it would be nice if the majority of players got the type of game that they wanted while there is still space for the minority of players to enjoy themselves.
In the homestead patch, as far as resource management and heavy attacks were concerned, the majority of players were enjoying having enough resources without being shoe horned into using fully charged heavy attacks while the minority of players who are interested in fully charged heavy attacks still had some space for themselves in PVE and PVP. That sounds like balanced approach to most people being able to enjoy the resource and fully charged heavy attack dynamic.
Then comes Morrowind which turns that dynamic on it's head and for what reason exactly?5 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »If you are having sustain issue you are:
A: not at max level
B: not properly weaving in heavy attacks
C: a combination of both and or not properly setup gear wise.
Sustain is just as strong in most cases this update because of the increased heavy attack resource return.
One thing that you may have missed is that vast numbers of people, since at least patch 1.3, have not wanted to use fully charged heavy attacks.
Such a play is available so to speak, but it isn't fun. I can point out how lame heavy attacks feel and how risky they are, but I can also point out that most people just haven't been using heavy attacks as a proof of my point. Fully charged heavy attack are lame.
Of course, that dislike hasn't stopped the development team from trying to stuff fully charged heavy attacks down our throats over the past several years. One doesn't go to the grocery store and find vomit flavored ice cream and, even though a rare person may like such a thing, if we did see such a good, then we would know it to be an utter waste. In the case of fully charged heavy attacks, a decent number of people are doing the equivalent of saying that we should get used to eating puke infused frozen dairy treats and that is just how things are going to be. Oh well.
What is so lame about heavy attacking? You're hitting a button and something happens. It's the exact same thing with, generally, a slightly less awesome animation. Oh darn, the humanity.
If you want vomit flavored ice cream get the just wear Selenes and Viper. Lots of "skill" and "fun" there!
Like I said - I have my reasons for not liking fully charged heavy attacks. It is more fun to time skills in a quick way. It is more fun to not have attacks interrupted.
It isn't just about me though. Many players have decided that using fully charged heavy attacks isn't that interactive and isn't that fun. The proof of that is not only the constant re-balancing and incentivization of heavy attacks by the balance team since as long as I can remember, but also the fact that swaths of players still have been choosing to not use fully charged heavy attacks despite the developer's changes. If they were fun, then people would be doing them.
Your comment about proc sets is a non-sequitur.
Touché about the proc set.
But ... many people liking something does not mean it's better. I've always enjoyed heavy attacks and view it as an intelligent way to play offense. I totally can animation cancel, so it's not like I HA due to lack of stick skill. I simply read online 3 years ago that HAs regain resources and decided that I'd be better served HAing a lot and ignoring my regen. I've gotten killed on this board for years by meta players for telling them to do the same, but I'm in the process of getting the last laugh ... so ... yeah ... heavy attack more.
Only a small portion of people liking something does not necessarily prove anything either. Although the number of people interested in a particular part of the game may not prove how the game should be one way or another, it would be nice if the majority of players got the type of game that they wanted while there is still space for the minority of players to enjoy themselves.
In the homestead patch, as far as resource management and heavy attacks were concerned, the majority of players were enjoying having enough resources without being shoe horned into using fully charged heavy attacks while the minority of players who are interested in fully charged heavy attacks still had some space for themselves in PVE and PVP. That sounds like balanced approach to most people being able to enjoy the resource and fully charged heavy attack dynamic.
Then comes Morrowind which turns that dynamic on it's head and for what reason exactly?
What reason? Because the entire game became a face roll for 99.99% of content. Forcing people to heavy attack at least brings some mechanics into play.
The game was ridiculously imbalanced in PVE under the last patch. The only reason everyone was ok with it was because NPCs don't have forum accounts to complain.2 -
Drakkdjinn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I was skeptical at first but I appreciate the inherent gear/skill check it has entailed -- trash healers can't get away with being primadonna trash healers even in norm trials now, for example. It was teh LoL faceroll before.1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Long thread, didnt read it all, but here are my 2 cents.
I believe that infinite sustain was an issue in PVP primarily, but that doesnt meant that I think resource management was meaningless in PVE before morrowind. We relied on group synergy, primarily from tanks and healers, so that DPS could go as glass cannon as possible in a proper group. I get why people might not like that, but from a high end raid perspective, it worked really well. Did we need some nerfs? Probably, but I think they simply took them too far.
Over and over, ZOS has said that they want to lower the ceiling and raise the floor. Again, I get that. The power gap between the Hodors of the world and your average pug group was insane. They might as well not be playing the same game.
Lowering the Ceiling
One direct result of this nerf that so many have pointed out, is that we need to adapt. Well the most obvious way is to start doing heavy attacks. Every heavy attack you do in a rotation takes 1 button press. What you are foregoing from the old meta rotation is 2 skills with a weave, so 4 button presses. The net result is that we lost DPS and our rotation got significantly easier. To many people, myself included, it is essentially taking a fast paced game that we love, and putting it in slow motion. It takes less skill, it is less engaging, it is less dynamic, and ultimately, is not as as fun from my perspective.
So arguably, they accomplished this task. Most raids were down in group DPS, at least initially, and fights that we were very comfortable with became much harder. Many raids are essentially having to relearn fights like VMOL HM. Now, we might very well see group DPS increase from where it was last patch with Major Slayer, but that isnt happening in the vast majority of groups, at least not yet.
Raising the Floor?
Here I am honestly not sure yet. Most experienced players (that didnt leave the game) can adapt pretty quickly. Some combo of heavy attacks, regen glyphs, poisons, and witchmothers will get you there. Furthermore, HA builds were just as viable last patch for the average person, so its not like its this new thing that everyone will jump on. I am not convinced that this really did much for the low level player. Arguably, they are going to have a tougher time adapting because they likely dont understand the nuances of managing regen, and they are also likely not getting the support they need from their raid. From a solo perspective, places like VMA certainly got harder. If you couldnt complete before patch, good luck. One staple of most MMOs seems to be that you get more powerful with each DLC, and therefore, the older content becomes a little easier each patch. This is a good thing as ti perhaps gives an opportunity for the less skilled to explore content they would have never cleared at launch.
Ultimately, I am not quite sure they hit the goal. I do believe they have done a great deal with bringing balance to the game, at least from a PVE standpoint. Stam is back on top for damage, but with a more difficult playstyle, and sorcs are no longer the clear favorites for magic DPS. If it were me, I would leave the CP changes as is, but revert a few of the other nerfs that help groups manage resources when they work together.
4 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »I have an example of why i think that the Sustain Reduction with Morrowind is way over the top:
This is a regular parse done on a Magicka Warden build that I use right now, BUT I used the Ghastly Eye Bowl drink to actually be able to sustain it through a regular dummy without using any heavy attacks. You see that i have a 1891 Magicka Drain per second and get 1583 magicka back every second. As I was interested how that would've looked in Homestead and with only the Elemental Drain change and Light Armor change reverted, I simulated the setup in the calculator and adjusted the values in two columns so that they match the Homestead update.
Here are the results:
you see that even with about 2000 recovery, i can NOT sustain a full light attack rotation infinetely. I didnt have vampire leveled yet, so i lost 10% recovery, but it's pretty frustrating to stand in front of the dummy and sacrificing so much to actually be able to sustain a regular rotation. I dont have alchemy leveled yet so i only got an uptime of 57% on the major intellect.
In Homestead i wouldve had no sustain issues at all. My drain/regeneration wouldve been positive.
I have heavy attack builds around, as you might know, and I also like that playstyle because it's easy and still feels powerful. But it is still awful that i do mouch more damage with a simpler rotation without havin to care about sustain. Why would I cripple myself by using something more complex, just to net a lower or at least the same result. Now this does not hold for all classes of course, but for magicka, i found this to be the case.
So @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_RichLambert , please consider at least reverting the light and medium armor changes and the reduction to elemental drain. It can't be that you have to use more than 2000 recovery to be able to sustain a rotation.
You don't have to. The only thing you have to do is realize that however you were playing before was wrong. Hitting A, A, A, A, A, A until a target is fried is not a play style that ZOS wants so, sorry, attack less frequently.
And peoples problem with that is it isn't fun.
Sorry. What you define as easy mode isn't easy mode, and people hate this direction.3 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Long thread, didnt read it all, but here are my 2 cents.
I believe that infinite sustain was an issue in PVP primarily, but that doesnt meant that I think resource management was meaningless in PVE before morrowind. We relied on group synergy, primarily from tanks and healers, so that DPS could go as glass cannon as possible in a proper group. I get why people might not like that, but from a high end raid perspective, it worked really well. Did we need some nerfs? Probably, but I think they simply took them too far.
Over and over, ZOS has said that they want to lower the ceiling and raise the floor. Again, I get that. The power gap between the Hodors of the world and your average pug group was insane. They might as well not be playing the same game.
Lowering the Ceiling
One direct result of this nerf that so many have pointed out, is that we need to adapt. Well the most obvious way is to start doing heavy attacks. Every heavy attack you do in a rotation takes 1 button press. What you are foregoing from the old meta rotation is 2 skills with a weave, so 4 button presses. The net result is that we lost DPS and our rotation got significantly easier. To many people, myself included, it is essentially taking a fast paced game that we love, and putting it in slow motion. It takes less skill, it is less engaging, it is less dynamic, and ultimately, is not as as fun from my perspective.
So arguably, they accomplished this task. Most raids were down in group DPS, at least initially, and fights that we were very comfortable with became much harder. Many raids are essentially having to relearn fights like VMOL HM. Now, we might very well see group DPS increase from where it was last patch with Major Slayer, but that isnt happening in the vast majority of groups, at least not yet.
Raising the Floor?
Here I am honestly not sure yet. Most experienced players (that didnt leave the game) can adapt pretty quickly. Some combo of heavy attacks, regen glyphs, poisons, and witchmothers will get you there. Furthermore, HA builds were just as viable last patch for the average person, so its not like its this new thing that everyone will jump on. I am not convinced that this really did much for the low level player. Arguably, they are going to have a tougher time adapting because they likely dont understand the nuances of managing regen, and they are also likely not getting the support they need from their raid. From a solo perspective, places like VMA certainly got harder. If you couldnt complete before patch, good luck. One staple of most MMOs seems to be that you get more powerful with each DLC, and therefore, the older content becomes a little easier each patch. This is a good thing as ti perhaps gives an opportunity for the less skilled to explore content they would have never cleared at launch.
Ultimately, I am not quite sure they hit the goal. I do believe they have done a great deal with bringing balance to the game, at least from a PVE standpoint. Stam is back on top for damage, but with a more difficult playstyle, and sorcs are no longer the clear favorites for magic DPS. If it were me, I would leave the CP changes as is, but revert a few of the other nerfs that help groups manage resources when they work together.
My problem with this is how they've chosen to lower the ceiling. Have rotations got easier? Arguibly. But quite frankly there were ways to do this without nerfing the playerbase so heavily. There were ways to augment the difficulty without screwing over the people who didn''t want it.
I'd say, revert all of it, and start instituting better difficulty selections. If resource management becomes a part of higher difficulties, then everyone gets what they want. And a better curve for difficulty emerges.
I refuse to adapt because I believe this update was a bad idea. In it's entirety.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on June 13, 2017 10:01PM2 -
Ashtaris✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Some people's expectations are such that they make themselves miserable. If you are no longer having fun, you should make a change, try a different game, role a new character, try different builds, or just take a break. All MMO have rebalancing, fixing bugs, which people cry about as nerfs even when they clearly had a significant advantage over other players or the intended difficulty level of the game.
You are complaining about sustain, and the effect it has on your character's dps in a game where the dps levels people are talking about are due to animation cancelling and firing off more attacks in a shorter timeframe than they should. How crazy is that? An unlimited number of too fast attacks, you really want no downside. Even games where characters are absurdly overpowered and are mowing down a constant stream of enemies I have yet to see anything comparable to the dps and resource exploitation in this game.
How sad would it be to have content additions and gameplay changes and feel no need to change your character, gear, skills, or rotation. I have quite a bit of fun with gear combination exploration and trying to make skill/gear combinations work. I would rather have a strong character I can play outside the meta than one following it, beating the meta-drones is pure bliss.
Post patch I still run into a number of characters that seem to have no problem maximizing sustain and damage, or sustain and tanking, or all 3.
And how long have you been playing the game Dulkur? I've changed my characters time and time again, along with farming gear until my eyes bleed, tried new skills along with gear combinations, studied the various streamer builds, etc., etc., etc. Last patch they nerfed us a bit, and now this patch they hit us even harder. Like I said before, after awhile it gets tiring because now I have to do it all over again. The main problem is that ZOS makes too many changes at once requiring us to do major gear, skill, and rotation changes. They have a hard time grasping that changes should be done in small steps.
2 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »If you are having sustain issue you are:
A: not at max level
B: not properly weaving in heavy attacks
C: a combination of both and or not properly setup gear wise.
Sustain is just as strong in most cases this update because of the increased heavy attack resource return.
One thing that you may have missed is that vast numbers of people, since at least patch 1.3, have not wanted to use fully charged heavy attacks.
Such a play is available so to speak, but it isn't fun. I can point out how lame heavy attacks feel and how risky they are, but I can also point out that most people just haven't been using heavy attacks as a proof of my point. Fully charged heavy attack are lame.
Of course, that dislike hasn't stopped the development team from trying to stuff fully charged heavy attacks down our throats over the past several years. One doesn't go to the grocery store and find vomit flavored ice cream and, even though a rare person may like such a thing, if we did see such a good, then we would know it to be an utter waste. In the case of fully charged heavy attacks, a decent number of people are doing the equivalent of saying that we should get used to eating puke infused frozen dairy treats and that is just how things are going to be. Oh well.
What is so lame about heavy attacking? You're hitting a button and something happens. It's the exact same thing with, generally, a slightly less awesome animation. Oh darn, the humanity.
If you want vomit flavored ice cream get the just wear Selenes and Viper. Lots of "skill" and "fun" there!
Like I said - I have my reasons for not liking fully charged heavy attacks. It is more fun to time skills in a quick way. It is more fun to not have attacks interrupted.
It isn't just about me though. Many players have decided that using fully charged heavy attacks isn't that interactive and isn't that fun. The proof of that is not only the constant re-balancing and incentivization of heavy attacks by the balance team since as long as I can remember, but also the fact that swaths of players still have been choosing to not use fully charged heavy attacks despite the developer's changes. If they were fun, then people would be doing them.
Your comment about proc sets is a non-sequitur.
Touché about the proc set.
But ... many people liking something does not mean it's better. I've always enjoyed heavy attacks and view it as an intelligent way to play offense. I totally can animation cancel, so it's not like I HA due to lack of stick skill. I simply read online 3 years ago that HAs regain resources and decided that I'd be better served HAing a lot and ignoring my regen. I've gotten killed on this board for years by meta players for telling them to do the same, but I'm in the process of getting the last laugh ... so ... yeah ... heavy attack more.
Only a small portion of people liking something does not necessarily prove anything either. Although the number of people interested in a particular part of the game may not prove how the game should be one way or another, it would be nice if the majority of players got the type of game that they wanted while there is still space for the minority of players to enjoy themselves.
In the homestead patch, as far as resource management and heavy attacks were concerned, the majority of players were enjoying having enough resources without being shoe horned into using fully charged heavy attacks while the minority of players who are interested in fully charged heavy attacks still had some space for themselves in PVE and PVP. That sounds like balanced approach to most people being able to enjoy the resource and fully charged heavy attack dynamic.
Then comes Morrowind which turns that dynamic on it's head and for what reason exactly?
What reason? Because the entire game became a face roll for 99.99% of content. Forcing people to heavy attack at least brings some mechanics into play.
The game was ridiculously imbalanced in PVE under the last patch. The only reason everyone was ok with it was because NPCs don't have forum accounts to complain.
One comment that I made earlier was with regards to my APM drop from Homestead to Morrowind.
I notice my Morrowind APM as being 50-100 APM less than my Homestead APM.
Is there some type of skill involved in maintaining my new APM? Yes.
That being said, and this all pertains to the fundamental flaw that many people who call for nerfs based on skill have, there was skill in maintaining my previous APM which could even become as high as 300 actions per minute. I developed that play and continue to evolve that play style by practice and becoming more skilled. This nerf also pertains to what people found to be fun. Many people found not just face-rolling content to be fun, but also found the older style of playing to be more fun than it is now.
In summary, by the Morrowind resource management nerfs, the game only maintains, not increases, a skill set useful for conquering content, but also becomes less fun for many people. Overall, there is mostly loss for the players and that makes sense because, well, something was taken away from us.4 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Long thread, didnt read it all, but here are my 2 cents.
I believe that infinite sustain was an issue in PVP primarily, but that doesnt meant that I think resource management was meaningless in PVE before morrowind. We relied on group synergy, primarily from tanks and healers, so that DPS could go as glass cannon as possible in a proper group. I get why people might not like that, but from a high end raid perspective, it worked really well. Did we need some nerfs? Probably, but I think they simply took them too far.
Over and over, ZOS has said that they want to lower the ceiling and raise the floor. Again, I get that. The power gap between the Hodors of the world and your average pug group was insane. They might as well not be playing the same game.
Lowering the Ceiling
One direct result of this nerf that so many have pointed out, is that we need to adapt. Well the most obvious way is to start doing heavy attacks. Every heavy attack you do in a rotation takes 1 button press. What you are foregoing from the old meta rotation is 2 skills with a weave, so 4 button presses. The net result is that we lost DPS and our rotation got significantly easier. To many people, myself included, it is essentially taking a fast paced game that we love, and putting it in slow motion. It takes less skill, it is less engaging, it is less dynamic, and ultimately, is not as as fun from my perspective.
So arguably, they accomplished this task. Most raids were down in group DPS, at least initially, and fights that we were very comfortable with became much harder. Many raids are essentially having to relearn fights like VMOL HM. Now, we might very well see group DPS increase from where it was last patch with Major Slayer, but that isnt happening in the vast majority of groups, at least not yet.
Raising the Floor?
Here I am honestly not sure yet. Most experienced players (that didnt leave the game) can adapt pretty quickly. Some combo of heavy attacks, regen glyphs, poisons, and witchmothers will get you there. Furthermore, HA builds were just as viable last patch for the average person, so its not like its this new thing that everyone will jump on. I am not convinced that this really did much for the low level player. Arguably, they are going to have a tougher time adapting because they likely dont understand the nuances of managing regen, and they are also likely not getting the support they need from their raid. From a solo perspective, places like VMA certainly got harder. If you couldnt complete before patch, good luck. One staple of most MMOs seems to be that you get more powerful with each DLC, and therefore, the older content becomes a little easier each patch. This is a good thing as ti perhaps gives an opportunity for the less skilled to explore content they would have never cleared at launch.
Ultimately, I am not quite sure they hit the goal. I do believe they have done a great deal with bringing balance to the game, at least from a PVE standpoint. Stam is back on top for damage, but with a more difficult playstyle, and sorcs are no longer the clear favorites for magic DPS. If it were me, I would leave the CP changes as is, but revert a few of the other nerfs that help groups manage resources when they work together.
My problem with this is how they've chosen to lower the ceiling. Have rotations got easier? Arguibly. But quite frankly there were ways to do this without nerfing the playerbase so heavily. There were ways to augment the difficulty without screwing over the people who didn''t want it.
I'd say, revert all of it, and start instituting better difficulty selections. If resource management becomes a part of higher difficulties, then everyone gets what they want. And a better curve for difficulty emerges.
I refuse to adapt because I believe this update was a bad idea. In it's entirety.
@Doctordarkspawn
I agree and disagree with parts. Infinite sustain was an issue in PVP. There were basically unkillable players running around that could still do a decent amount of damage. So I was fine with them pulling back on sustain a bit, but in typical ZOS fashion, they went too far the other way. I would have much rather seen them address this with something in battlespirit and/or just remove CP from PVP entirely.
I think it's hard to deny that Veteran Content just got harder for the average player. I agree that this was probably not a good thing big picture and certainly seems contrary to their stated goals.
I think you absolutely are on to something when you talk about difficulty levels. The fundamental problem with PVE in this game (other than the horrendous loot system) is that there is WAY too much of a gap between normal and vet. There should be a middle ground that basically gives the potential for the same rewards as vet, but doesnt require massive DPS to be successful. You could then even buff vet to make the hardcore players happy. A third or even fourth tier of difficulty would solve a LOT of problems in this game.1 -
Fusiondk✭✭Lol Mag and Heal Templar is pretty good with sustain if you play properly. As a healer I'm able to run multiple sets even keeping thief whether it's SPC/Worm/Sanc/Mending etc with no issues. Hell with the more mechanical based HoF where not everything is a burn race really I have 2975 ish mag recon running worm/alteration. Add that in with weaving the required heavys for major mending and it kind of works great. Now I get to do something other than mashing BoL.
I'm not the greatest dps but I can pull 22-23k easy with a drainer and someone sustaining me with orbs. Mind you that's single target, and let me reiterate I suck at my dps rotation.0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Long thread, didnt read it all, but here are my 2 cents.
I believe that infinite sustain was an issue in PVP primarily, but that doesnt meant that I think resource management was meaningless in PVE before morrowind. We relied on group synergy, primarily from tanks and healers, so that DPS could go as glass cannon as possible in a proper group. I get why people might not like that, but from a high end raid perspective, it worked really well. Did we need some nerfs? Probably, but I think they simply took them too far.
Over and over, ZOS has said that they want to lower the ceiling and raise the floor. Again, I get that. The power gap between the Hodors of the world and your average pug group was insane. They might as well not be playing the same game.
Lowering the Ceiling
One direct result of this nerf that so many have pointed out, is that we need to adapt. Well the most obvious way is to start doing heavy attacks. Every heavy attack you do in a rotation takes 1 button press. What you are foregoing from the old meta rotation is 2 skills with a weave, so 4 button presses. The net result is that we lost DPS and our rotation got significantly easier. To many people, myself included, it is essentially taking a fast paced game that we love, and putting it in slow motion. It takes less skill, it is less engaging, it is less dynamic, and ultimately, is not as as fun from my perspective.
So arguably, they accomplished this task. Most raids were down in group DPS, at least initially, and fights that we were very comfortable with became much harder. Many raids are essentially having to relearn fights like VMOL HM. Now, we might very well see group DPS increase from where it was last patch with Major Slayer, but that isnt happening in the vast majority of groups, at least not yet.
Raising the Floor?
Here I am honestly not sure yet. Most experienced players (that didnt leave the game) can adapt pretty quickly. Some combo of heavy attacks, regen glyphs, poisons, and witchmothers will get you there. Furthermore, HA builds were just as viable last patch for the average person, so its not like its this new thing that everyone will jump on. I am not convinced that this really did much for the low level player. Arguably, they are going to have a tougher time adapting because they likely dont understand the nuances of managing regen, and they are also likely not getting the support they need from their raid. From a solo perspective, places like VMA certainly got harder. If you couldnt complete before patch, good luck. One staple of most MMOs seems to be that you get more powerful with each DLC, and therefore, the older content becomes a little easier each patch. This is a good thing as ti perhaps gives an opportunity for the less skilled to explore content they would have never cleared at launch.
Ultimately, I am not quite sure they hit the goal. I do believe they have done a great deal with bringing balance to the game, at least from a PVE standpoint. Stam is back on top for damage, but with a more difficult playstyle, and sorcs are no longer the clear favorites for magic DPS. If it were me, I would leave the CP changes as is, but revert a few of the other nerfs that help groups manage resources when they work together.
My problem with this is how they've chosen to lower the ceiling. Have rotations got easier? Arguibly. But quite frankly there were ways to do this without nerfing the playerbase so heavily. There were ways to augment the difficulty without screwing over the people who didn''t want it.
I'd say, revert all of it, and start instituting better difficulty selections. If resource management becomes a part of higher difficulties, then everyone gets what they want. And a better curve for difficulty emerges.
I refuse to adapt because I believe this update was a bad idea. In it's entirety.
@Doctordarkspawn
I agree and disagree with parts. Infinite sustain was an issue in PVP. There were basically unkillable players running around that could still do a decent amount of damage. So I was fine with them pulling back on sustain a bit, but in typical ZOS fashion, they went too far the other way. I would have much rather seen them address this with something in battlespirit and/or just remove CP from PVP entirely.
I think it's hard to deny that Veteran Content just got harder for the average player. I agree that this was probably not a good thing big picture and certainly seems contrary to their stated goals.
I think you absolutely are on to something when you talk about difficulty levels. The fundamental problem with PVE in this game (other than the horrendous loot system) is that there is WAY too much of a gap between normal and vet. There should be a middle ground that basically gives the potential for the same rewards as vet, but doesnt require massive DPS to be successful. You could then even buff vet to make the hardcore players happy. A third or even fourth tier of difficulty would solve a LOT of problems in this game.
I wont pretend to talk about PVP like I have a clue like I'm talking about but I will stand by my difficulty redone idea. I think that it'd give everyone what they want, from the people who hate sustain to the people who wanna have a few rounds and do some content. I think it's the best of both worlds.
You are right, when you say there is a gap between normal and vet. A gap the size of the red bloody sea. Not only can we fix that, we can use the difficulty levels to slowly ramp up the resource management emphasis, and give people a training group before the main course. I think it'd be absolutely silly for them not to do it, and given the next DLC is Horns of the Reach, the time is ripe!
As for the sustain, there's no reason that couldn't be added onto battlespirit in PVP, allthough I suspect they dont like that idea due to code buggery. Eitherway, this is what I would perscribe for the current resource buggery. Reduce costs across the board to make that battlespirit debuff and difficulty debuff, mean something.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on June 14, 2017 3:12AM0 -
Robisok74✭✭✭drakhan2002_ESO wrote: »For stamina builds, use reduce cost jewelry glyphs
For magicka builds, use increase regen jewelry glyphs
...works for me...
Or use mag/stam regen food. I am and breezing through vma as before, just have to throw in a few heavy attacks and potions
1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »I sustain same as before and do more damage. Life is good.
Then your build last patch was probably lacking in DPS. Nobody came through this unscathed.1 -
This and the nb nerfs.. Does ZOS even play their own game? Maybe just on console lmao.0 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »I sustain same as before and do more damage. Life is good.
Then your build last patch was probably lacking in DPS. Nobody came through this unscathed.
While I can't say I was "unscathed" I too only got minorly inconvenienced, and that's a stretch. As for the DPS ... I've never been great at prolonged DPS. I'm good at it but definitely not great. For burst, what really matters in PVP, I'm as good as ever.
My build was always built to use heavy attacks as my predominant regeneration choice. I just got lucky that they shifted the meta to exactly what I always enjoyed doing best. I'll take it as a win.0 -
UrbanMonk✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, the changes to sustain= No more fun play. Couldn't agree more on this and yes i've adapted. By putting all my toons to rest and only playing HA sorc these days, still pulling decent DPS but IT'S NOT FUN. Have done vMA jsut once on HA sorc build after the patch, and i've no intention of going back there anymore, because it's not my play style.
Regarding the game getting easier as we progress, and ZOS trying to bring the ceiling down and all that BS, bellow are the facts-
1. It's a fact that the content we have in ESO is not progression based. It's all Capped at a certain (CP-160) lvl regardless of your character levels.
2. Progression in learning the mechanics and getting better at your game play will help you to clear the existing content faster but will also result in what is termed as Power Creep, as called by many.
3. With the current CP system, more CP= more power does not apply, since most CP are front loaded, and at the current level you are already getting most of it. So more CP in future is not going to make your characters too powerful, so progression is again broken there.
4. The worst of all is balancing the game difficulty vs Player level (CP) is that the content scaling currently is at 160 along with gear and in future whenever it increases, it'll again become imbalanced to CP. And then again ZOS has to come up with a different CP system/ behavior to compensate for the changes in difficulty as well as game play.
TLDR- there is no way ZOS can stick to a certain set of CP rules/ system which can be called stable in long run as the new content and new difficulty levels are introduced. They always will have to keep a constant check on player performance vs their content and in time to time as we have seen in past, keep introducing new changes (NERF) to bring back the players to level before, and WHATEVER PROGRESSION PLAYERS GET IN CURRENT PATCH, IT'LL ALL BE REVERTED TO THE STATUS OF 2 PATCHES BEFORE IN THE NEXT PATCH.
So adapt all you want, but there is no progression here.Urban.Monk
-Monk I- Magden- ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
-Tsürügi- MagBlade- ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
-Bantam Bomber- MagPlar- AVA28
-Hot Nöödle- MagDK - AVA37
-Pablo Necrobar- StamCro- AVA24
youtube.com/c/UrbanMonkGaming
Easiest mDK for vMA and vVH- https://youtu.be/dUxQO1FO1XQ
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Balance for the Sake of Balance is no Balance at all.2 -
PlagueSD✭✭✭✭✭
✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Your skills don't suddenly cost 8k, if your in pvp and still running an old builds its time to switch, if your in battlegrounds its time to drop heavy.
Umm, poisons will disagree with you there.
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Poisons
0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, the changes to sustain= No more fun play. Couldn't agree more on this and yes i've adapted. By putting all my toons to rest and only playing HA sorc these days, still pulling decent DPS but IT'S NOT FUN. Have done vMA jsut once on HA sorc build after the patch, and i've no intention of going back there anymore, because it's not my play style.
Regarding the game getting easier as we progress, and ZOS trying to bring the ceiling down and all that BS, bellow are the facts-
1. It's a fact that the content we have in ESO is not progression based. It's all Capped at a certain (CP-160) lvl regardless of your character levels.
2. Progression in learning the mechanics and getting better at your game play will help you to clear the existing content faster but will also result in what is termed as Power Creep, as called by many.
3. With the current CP system, more CP= more power does not apply, since most CP are front loaded, and at the current level you are already getting most of it. So more CP in future is not going to make your characters too powerful, so progression is again broken there.
4. The worst of all is balancing the game difficulty vs Player level (CP) is that the content scaling currently is at 160 along with gear and in future whenever it increases, it'll again become imbalanced to CP. And then again ZOS has to come up with a different CP system/ behavior to compensate for the changes in difficulty as well as game play.
TLDR- there is no way ZOS can stick to a certain set of CP rules/ system which can be called stable in long run as the new content and new difficulty levels are introduced. They always will have to keep a constant check on player performance vs their content and in time to time as we have seen in past, keep introducing new changes (NERF) to bring back the players to level before, and WHATEVER PROGRESSION PLAYERS GET IN CURRENT PATCH, IT'LL ALL BE REVERTED TO THE STATUS OF 2 PATCHES BEFORE IN THE NEXT PATCH.
So adapt all you want, but there is no progression here.
Perfectly put.
ESO has never been a progression based game. Stay within the lines or the nerfs come. Their a punishment, not a balancing tool.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on June 14, 2017 10:14PM1 -
itehache✭✭✭✭It didn't take me that long to get used to the changes.
I swapped my weapon damage glyphs for stam regen glyps on jewels. That's literally all I did so I could get some extra regen. I had to add more heavy attacks to my rotation, but overall it's fine.0 -
tunepunk✭✭✭✭✭I kind of like where it's going, if it's going where I think it is.
Personally i would prefer if they killed rotations altogether by increasing skill cost even more, although the could make skills a bit more powerful in some cases, so skills is to be used in the right situation at the right time, not spammed and weaved in endless mindless rotations.
During a long boss fight, main damage should be regular attacks and buffs, and skills should be used sparesely at the right moment, when needed, for bursts, defense cc or whatever. More focus on timing than mindless weaving for stacking dps skills is more fun in my book.
Current end game is boring as hell. Skill spamming, rotation fiesta with latest meta builds and BiS gear or nothing. Personally I'm sticking to quests and some casual grouping until they fix endgame. And by fix, I mean "nerf" it even more.
Make skills matter in the right situation, not in a mindless boring rotation. Make them more powerful, but increase the cost.
1 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I kind of like where it's going, if it's going where I think it is.
Personally i would prefer if they killed rotations altogether by increasing skill cost even more, although the could make skills a bit more powerful in some cases, so skills is to be used in the right situation at the right time, not spammed and weaved in endless mindless rotations.
During a long boss fight, main damage should be regular attacks and buffs, and skills should be used sparesely at the right moment, when needed, for bursts, defense cc or whatever. More focus on timing than mindless weaving for stacking dps skills is more fun in my book.
Current end game is boring as hell. Skill spamming, rotation fiesta with latest meta builds and BiS gear or nothing. Personally I'm sticking to quests and some casual grouping until they fix endgame. And by fix, I mean "nerf" it even more.
Make skills matter in the right situation, not in a mindless boring rotation. Make them more powerful, but increase the cost.
I doubt this would occur. And I'm not sure it should eitherway.
If you hate roations, as far as I can tell you just hate MMO's. ZOS would have to radically redesign the game and several encounters to dissolve the rotation system as it's tied into support rolls as well. I'm sorry, but what you want is a pipe dream @tunepunk and maybe you oughta consider swearing off MMO's. Rotations are just par for the course.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on June 14, 2017 11:22PM0 -
f047ys3v3n✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with the feelings part of your sentiments OP.
I hate it as well and it also makes me feel like it's just not fun. The whole holding that left key interminably hoping a red mechanic doesn't show up that needs blocked or rolled out of interrupting the heaving and giving zero resources is just miserable. It's like playing will you get the RNG for resources? It also just makes the timings feel clunky and miserable.
I don't think we are alone. A very substantial number of former raiders on my friends list have some very long days since last login in front of their names now. Raiding activity has clearly not just dropped due to enthusiasm for the new quest content. It seems far more a case of players just not thinking it is fun anymore.
For what it is worth, all I do in game now is login, do my horses and writs, and maybe if I am feeling it (rarely) do some questing content. I just don't enjoy the mechanics of real combat anymore.
I expect ZOS has gotten the message on this (dropped subs, carping, and low trials participation) but I also expect that they will not do a full on combat system roll back (especially since the CP changes were generally good) and do not really have the resources to address our discontent in any other way. They seem to have some huge issues with people even getting into battlegrounds and with whole team crashes in trials on top of the normal stability issues with new content. In short, I think the roomba got into the dog poop and it will take a long time to clean the *** up. It is a pity the roomba isn't smart enough to figure out when he has *** all over him and stop running around trying to do things.I am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.0 -
MacCait✭✭✭✭✭
✭I totally agree, it's NOT fun.
I also agree evryone can adapt. However, that's not the point. The point is these changes have taken away the fun. If a game loses the one thing (fun) that draws people to play any game, people begin to leave and find other games that ARE fun. Not everyone will stick around and slog it out until they can adapt... only certain people will do that.
It's just really sad to see this happening right now in this game... People leaving and no longer loggin on, and all because the developers cannot see it, or have too much pride to see that a lot of these changes seem senseless and are driving a number of players away. Very sad.
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