Can't get used to sustain changes. No sustain = no fun

Anysra · June 2017

Before Morrowind patch, my overall sustain was (meh, could be better). Now it is, (meh, still could be better). It is not like I am going to rage quit because it drain that fast. Aaaaaaaaaaand, I am always having above 20k Magicka. I have 44k in total. But If I just randomly press some buttons it will drain fast. You have to use some skills (active/passive) to gain resources and/or use glyphs.

Draxius82 · June 2017

@Doctordarkspawn,

No hard feelings dude. I know you are emotionally invested in this game where I haven't played long enough yet to be. So we see things a little differently.

Nice chatting with ya

Izaki · June 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't think the Morrowind update made the game more interesting or skillful to play. Just more tedious.

This.

I tire. Of geting screwed. Because people wont rework the difficulty system, or something similar. Enough. Rescend the worst of the sustain changes and get on to redoing the difficulty system, if you want to appease these 'HARDCORE OR BUST' people.

Just quit the game then dude, stop torturing yourself. I just don't get it: why do people tell everyone to quit because the game is apparently trash, but they don't do it themselves? You seem to not be enjoying this game. Considered quitting?

I allready have.

I'm just here to continue to convince people to until these problems are solved, or the game goes under. Just because I left does not mean the problems are fixed, and I want to see them fixed. It isn't about me, it's about wanting a game to come back to.

And just because I quit does not mean my opinion has no merit, either, so dont even bother bringing out that old line.

So essentially instead of letting people enjoy or try to enjoy the game, you're basically telling them that they spent the money for the game (and the expansion) for absolutely nothing. I personally would like to chose for myself whether I want to quit the game and whether the money was well spent or not. The way you're advising people to leave the game (in a pretty passionate manner), isn't exactly what would make me stop and I think that its the case for pretty much everyone.

If you already want to come back to the game, means that its good enough for you to want to come back to. And if you're still on the forums telling people to quit then I suggest you do something else with your time, because what you're doing is just stupid and kinda disrespectful to the people who might still be enjoying the game.

I never even said it, but... Avoid to make your opinion sound like fact, because its exactly what you're doing, and in that case well... your say doesn't have any merit, because its not fact.

Lirkin · June 2017

I agree with the op.

Heavy attacks suck especially the animations and the length of time they take to do.

My magic characters are much easier to do the heavy attacks and recover the resources. It's much easier to heavy attack from a distance with shields and pets.

qsnoopyjr · June 2017

ArchMikem wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I feel you OP but the only way now is to, well, adapt.

"Learn to Adapt", has become the new "Learn to Play" and "Git Gud".

Learn to Adapt is another saying, wait for a new MMORPG to come out.

If he isnt enjoying it, why struggle.

code65536 · June 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't think the Morrowind update made the game more interesting or skillful to play. Just more tedious.

This.

I tire. Of geting screwed. Because people wont rework the difficulty system, or something similar. Enough. Rescend the worst of the sustain changes and get on to redoing the difficulty system, if you want to appease these 'HARDCORE OR BUST' people.

Just quit the game then dude, stop torturing yourself. I just don't get it: why do people tell everyone to quit because the game is apparently trash, but they don't do it themselves? You seem to not be enjoying this game. Considered quitting?

I allready have.

I'm just here to continue to convince people to until these problems are solved, or the game goes under. Just because I left does not mean the problems are fixed, and I want to see them fixed. It isn't about me, it's about wanting a game to come back to.

And just because I quit does not mean my opinion has no merit, either, so dont even bother bringing out that old line.

So essentially instead of letting people enjoy or try to enjoy the game, you're basically telling them that they spent the money for the game (and the expansion) for absolutely nothing. I personally would like to chose for myself whether I want to quit the game and whether the money was well spent or not. The way you're advising people to leave the game (in a pretty passionate manner), isn't exactly what would make me stop and I think that its the case for pretty much everyone.

If you already want to come back to the game, means that its good enough for you to want to come back to. And if you're still on the forums telling people to quit then I suggest you do something else with your time, because what you're doing is just stupid and kinda disrespectful to the people who might still be enjoying the game.

I never even said it, but... Avoid to make your opinion sound like fact, because its exactly what you're doing, and in that case well... your say doesn't have any merit, because its not fact.

@Doctordarkspawn is just trolling. He acts as if he's here to save us from this game. The ones who are playing aren't asking to be saved. And people who are still enjoying the game somehow have the wrong opinion or are not the target audience according to him. We must all share his opinion, and if we don't, we must be blind. His attitude is even more arrogant and intransigent than that of ZOS's combat team.

Sneaky-Snurr · June 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I feel you OP but the only way now is to, well, adapt.

"Learn to Adapt", has become the new "Learn to Play" and "Git Gud".

@ArchMikem
Do note that I meant it with no prejudice and offense whatsoever.
I share OP's feelings and I do wish that most of the sustain nerf is reverted but in reality, it's not going to happen anytime soon so the next best step for everyone is to adapt to the new combat environment, there's no other way.

I'm one of the people who are against most of those nonsensical changes to sustain but we can either complain about it till the ends of the earth or we simply change our playstyle to suit the new environment (while still pleading to ZoS to revert the changes).

We can, however, leave. Which is more productive suggesting then suggesting we submit to the whims of the mad maestro that is Wrobel and continue to eat the crap sandwitch and ask for seconds.

Impact their bottom line. At the very least? Seek joy and dont be content to be a thrall to the company.

@Doctordarkspawn @ArchMikem
Actually, I still enjoy the game for what it's worth (minus Morrowind 'Chapter').

However, it takes more than a few leavers to affect ZoS's bottom line and I do not want this game to die off because ZoS aren't making enough to sustain (pun intended) the game for a few extended years. If that's the case, then there would be no ESO and that's disheartening.

I'd rather have a new Dev team work on ESO who are familiar with the ES series and are MUCH MUCH more efficient and sensibly-forward-thinking than the current team.

At this point, I do not believe ESO is worth saving.

It's entire run has been plagued by performance issues, insane design decisions from the balance staff and far too much meddling about with both. Wrobel isn't going anywhere, and he is the main issue with the balance. ZOS isn't going to spring for better servers, and that's why the packet loss is so high.

The game is not going to fix itself and ZOS has proven it does not want your feedback. Sorry, but I dont believe this is worth saving anymore. The experiment has gone on long enough. I hope black deserts release on console does well enough to put a serious hurt into ZOS's bottom line, enough for them to re-evaluate how much ill will they can skirt by with.

The sustain changes are a symptom of bad management. The performance issues are a symptom of bad management. Until ZOS fires it's current team and rehires, there. Will. Be. No. Fixing. These. Issues. My problem is no longer with the game, but the people who are butchering it.

@Doctordarkspawn
Lmao. Bolded part is actually my beef and I think you missed my point as I actually share your thoughts on your concerns.

And like I've previously said, a new Dev team is what's needed to make the game better. Desperately.

@Sneaky-Snurr

I didn't miss the point. I just disagree with your contentedness to sit there and choke down the same swill. I personally think telling newcomers what their coming into, and advising people to cut the cord is a better option.

Besides. After reading some of the replies on this thread alone, I half thing throttling this toxic community is a good thing in and of itself.

@Doctordarkspawn
Content? In which post(s) did I show any kind of contentment towards ZoS on the drastic changes to the game?

Let me make this clear to you, I am neither content nor do I 'choke down the same swill' because I've been voicing out my concerns on the changes ZoS have made whilst at the same time adapting to the current combat environment.

Like I said, you can either; quit (still waiting for you to do so if you actually mean to quit the game); complain and get facerolled or; complain and adapt (while also pressuring ZoS to revert the changes and advocate for a change in the Dev team).
Either way, the 3rd option is definitely the best way to go for anyone including yourself.

Re-evaluate your decisions and think for ESO's long term prosperity instead of yelling "Let's quit together! That'll show them while ESO cease to exist due to insufficient fund!".

Let me make this equally clear to you.

This wont be fixed if the design team at ZOS continues to be the same.

They will not be removed unless it can be proved that they are what the players are unhappy with. To get people to look, they need to have a impact in the bottom line. The more people quit, the closer they look. That simple.

I have quit. I refuse to buy Morrowind, any of the expansions, and do not play the game for any reason other than the two RP guilds I am currently a part of. And I'll continue to advise the same to any and all new players I meet.

Apathy is death. And you have become apathetic. I have no doubt you'll take my 'quitting' as the signal to shame me and try to get me to shut up because 'if your not playing your opinion does not matter', a mentality that is and allways will be born of a fanboy mentality, but at the end of the day I'm content in fighting back the way I am. The only way, that makes sense. When Wrobel, Rich, and the rest of them have gone, and the decisions made by the new team are -good- decisions, the playerbase will come back in droves. Until then, if it's not good, it deserves. To fail.

Your enjoyment of a product is not enough to justify it's existance. If you truely love something, you should be willing to let it go rather than prolong it's suffering.

@Doctordarkspawn
You've not quit, mate.
You still get into the game to be with your RP guild and at this point, I think @code65536 is right. Plus, I'm not shaming you or anything, playing or quitting this game doesn't have any merits to your 'interwebzz' social stature and if you think/feel I'm shaming you because of this, you really have serious issues within yourself.
Also, you've not answered my question. You claimed that I was happy with the recent changes. Now where are said posts?

And what @IzakiBrotherSs said is true, you preach around about quitting the game to new and/or longtime players is just nonsensical and useless. If a player likes the game, they'll continue to play until the game is no longer of interest to them. So just stop it.
I'm doing you a favour because time will take its course on whether players will quit or continue playing the game. You're not going to make players leave any sooner or continue to play. In other words, you're powerless to impact ZoS's bottomline since you don't have the firepower to do so as a hefty majority of players here will disregard your quitting pleas.
To simply put, you're just expending your energy and time advocating for something you have no control of which is futile.
So go and do something else, in regards to the game, with your time. Maybe run a dungeon or two with your guild or pressure ZoS for a new Dev team if you're so bitter with the change and are trying to 'save' the game. Prove it.

And I've never implied that your opinion doesn't matter if you're not playing the game. In fact, I even agreed to some of your concerns and opinions.
That's another classic example that you have problems within yourself. Sort it out, mate.

Iirc, there has never been any successful 'revival' of an MMO in the past if the game has died down and ESO will not be any different. Your malicious wish for ESO's downturn is just disheartening.
Certain negativity can be tolerable and warranted if it's constructive but yours is nothing short of complete, misguided negativity and we don't need it here.

Again, you can either, quit; complain and get facerolled or; complain and adapt (while also pressuring ZoS to revert the changes and advocate for a change in the Dev team).
3rd option is the most viable choice for you. Take it.

slumber_sandb16_ESO · June 2017

One hand and shield heavy attacks should have lower damage but higher speed. Tanks cant afford to spend half an eternity doing a heavy attack to regain stamina during boss fights that do massive damage.

Doctordarkspawn · June 2017

code65536 wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't think the Morrowind update made the game more interesting or skillful to play. Just more tedious.

This.

I tire. Of geting screwed. Because people wont rework the difficulty system, or something similar. Enough. Rescend the worst of the sustain changes and get on to redoing the difficulty system, if you want to appease these 'HARDCORE OR BUST' people.

Just quit the game then dude, stop torturing yourself. I just don't get it: why do people tell everyone to quit because the game is apparently trash, but they don't do it themselves? You seem to not be enjoying this game. Considered quitting?

I allready have.

I'm just here to continue to convince people to until these problems are solved, or the game goes under. Just because I left does not mean the problems are fixed, and I want to see them fixed. It isn't about me, it's about wanting a game to come back to.

And just because I quit does not mean my opinion has no merit, either, so dont even bother bringing out that old line.

So essentially instead of letting people enjoy or try to enjoy the game, you're basically telling them that they spent the money for the game (and the expansion) for absolutely nothing. I personally would like to chose for myself whether I want to quit the game and whether the money was well spent or not. The way you're advising people to leave the game (in a pretty passionate manner), isn't exactly what would make me stop and I think that its the case for pretty much everyone.

If you already want to come back to the game, means that its good enough for you to want to come back to. And if you're still on the forums telling people to quit then I suggest you do something else with your time, because what you're doing is just stupid and kinda disrespectful to the people who might still be enjoying the game.

I never even said it, but... Avoid to make your opinion sound like fact, because its exactly what you're doing, and in that case well... your say doesn't have any merit, because its not fact.

@Doctordarkspawn is just trolling. He acts as if he's here to save us from this game. The ones who are playing aren't asking to be saved. And people who are still enjoying the game somehow have the wrong opinion or are not the target audience according to him. We must all share his opinion, and if we don't, we must be blind. His attitude is even more arrogant and intransigent than that of ZOS's combat team.

...You have a very strange interpretation of my actions.

I have allways advocated for the following positions:

1. That the difficulty should be redone to a three, or four tier system. Given how beloved the sustain changes are by some people, perhaps resource management should be a key part of this rebalance. It could even be done into a overworld content version, if it was purely resource management for that overworld, without hampering other players in the process.

2. That ZOS should stop lisening to the hardcore crowd, as it produces situations like the current sustain changes, and instead focus on the difficulty redo-ing, as that would be better for the game in the long run, given it'd satisfy most parties. I view the 'MAKE THE GAME HARDER, THIS GAME IS TOO EASY' line as counterproductive to a MMO with depth, as I do not equate difficulty with it, nor frustration with fun. I feel that giving people options on how to enjoy the game is the way to go and allways have. And even, EVEN if I have had the most rabid feudes with the so called 'hard core crowd' I have allways been content in a compromise that lets me do what I want, and them do what they want (In theory.)

3. That the current combat team has no idea what their doing, and should be replaced. Do I need to list reasons for this? Wrobels infamous 'I hate tanks' and long laundry list of blunders speaks for itself, do I need to draw you a map on this one? No, probably not.

Have I come across as arrogant? Oh absolutely, I wont even try to argue that point nor should I. But trolling? I have a reason for every one of the three above positions I advocate. I have a reason for calling Shadows of the Hist poorly designed, I have a reason for my issues with how ZOS has conducted myself, I have -allways-. Had reasons. I could probably list them so damn long it'd make you try and claw your own ears off. I could make Sheogorrath uncomfortable with the sheer ammount of reasons.

@code65536 call me arrogant, call me out of my gourde, call me stark-raving mad if you like, but believe me when I say I believe everything I say, even, at best, if I am only right half the time, and at worst, wrong most of the time. I am fallable, like everyone else. Perhaps moreso. Probably moreso.

To both others who've called me out. @Sneaky-Snurr @IzakiBrotherSs
I have advocated for people to leave, yes. "People who like the game will stay" Well, if their making these threads their not likely to. Every thread I have dropped into to tell the people their better of finding a new MMO, their welcome to that information. I've allways tried to be honest, even if not exactly correct. And I cannot reasonibly tell someone to keep playing a game who's design decisions I disagree with. I cannot reasonibly tell the newbie 'it gets better' when after three years, I'm still -waiting- for it to get better. And as for 'stating my opinion as fact', it's a failing of mine. Conviction has the capacity to turn into arrogance. Such is life. I wont say I wont do it again, that'd likely be lying with how I tend to carry on. So I'll only say, I'm not blind to it, and I dont take people calling it out personally.

Edit: As to the readilant accusation of people taking my 'quitting' as the opportunity to shout me down, it's happened before. It's happened so much, even when it hasn't been me, it's a reasonable assumption to make.

In closing, I do believe that the best advice I can give every single person who is unhappy with the current system, balance changes and elsewise, is to leave. To find something, a MMO, another game that their more happy with. Not telling them to 'learn to love the pain' because we've been trying that bitter medicine for around three years now and we've yet to see it produce positive results.

I will continue, to refuse to take that third option. My build is absolutely unaffected by the sustain changes, but why do I refuse still? Principle. I tired of being nerfed for no reason when the Wrath changes hit, now I've become positively sick of it. I want for this game to be brilliant. I wail, and I scribble down these useless words because I care. it's not a rational thing, no. But given the PTS is full of feedback that is so ignored Hermeus Mora is starting to covet it, it's all we're left with. And if I have to give it some tough love to get it to where it needs to be, to get the -real- problems adressed...so be it. Snurr believes that ESO will never recover from a loss. I have more faith in it than that.

TLDR: Oh bugger off, go read the whole damn thing. Their just words, they wont kill you.

theamazingx · June 2017

Witchmothers and a regen glyph or two, woosh.

Got people here convincing themselves that everyone else is having as tough a time and just isn't admitting it; come on, man.

There's still so many sources of passive regen that will allow you to play exactly the same as last patch. This isn't about sustain, this is about 'muh parse' and efffrt.

Sigma957 · June 2017

Well from the zone chat in Vvardenfell today many people are loving ESO and there were plenty of people in zone too.

edit

Lirkin wrote: »

I agree with the op.

Heavy attacks suck especially the animations and the length of time they take to do.

My magic characters are much easier to do the heavy attacks and recover the resources. It's much easier to heavy attack from a distance with shields and pets.

With weapon heavy attacks you can cancel the full animation by using a skill when you are half way through the heavy animation, it will still register the heavy attack plus what ever skill you used.

Grymmoire · June 2017

JWKe wrote: »

Can't force a square peg into a round hole. Just adapt.

Perhaps not, but this guy shows how one can put a round peg into a square hole; kind of the same principle, no?.

<G.I. Jetson>

Vipstaakki · June 2017

So now that they removed your easy mode the game isn't fun anymore? This is clearly a L2P issue.

kevlarto_ESO · June 2017

To me if I stop having fun no matter how much I try it is time to move on, I have played many mmo's over the years and a couple of them have made changes no matter how much I tried to adapt to these changes, the fundamental basis of the game changed enough to zap the fun out of for me, I could play it but did not like the new way they wanted me to play.

Sustain was crazy in this game and that is a by product of no soft caps or hard caps, zos does not seem to know how to fix anything with out extreme swings one way or the other.

Fallen_Ray · June 2017

Kay1 wrote: »

Swap your damage glyphs for regen glyphs.

Tested and proved, hit the insightful now.

Star farmer...

jircris11 · June 2017

Honestly I am having little issue keeping my stamina up. Though I will admit on lower level characters I can feel the nerf where on my Mac nb I don't. Best thing you can do is switch food for max stamina plus regeneration. Or magic and regeneration.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2017

This is about 6 pages of LOL.

My magic regen is below 700, the lowest of any person I know, and I do fine in Battlegrounds with no CP.

My no CP crit resist is below 200 and I still do fine in Battlegrounds.

With CP I can still complete all content that I could before even if it's slightly more difficult.

Just heavy attack and you're good. The game was not designed for the uber melt-everything with no drawbacks builds that had cropped up over the last 6 months. L2Adjust.

Also, to the heavy attacking isn't fun crowd? Really? It's somehow more fun to hit one button over another? Grasping for straws here people.

Masel · June 2017

I have an example of why i think that the Sustain Reduction with Morrowind is way over the top:

This is a regular parse done on a Magicka Warden build that I use right now, BUT I used the Ghastly Eye Bowl drink to actually be able to sustain it through a regular dummy without using any heavy attacks. You see that i have a 1891 Magicka Drain per second and get 1583 magicka back every second. As I was interested how that would've looked in Homestead and with only the Elemental Drain change and Light Armor change reverted, I simulated the setup in the calculator and adjusted the values in two columns so that they match the Homestead update.

Here are the results:

you see that even with about 2000 recovery, i can NOT sustain a full light attack rotation infinetely. I didnt have vampire leveled yet, so i lost 10% recovery, but it's pretty frustrating to stand in front of the dummy and sacrificing so much to actually be able to sustain a regular rotation. I dont have alchemy leveled yet so i only got an uptime of 57% on the major intellect.

In Homestead i wouldve had no sustain issues at all. My drain/regeneration wouldve been positive.

I have heavy attack builds around, as you might know, and I also like that playstyle because it's easy and still feels powerful. But it is still awful that i do mouch more damage with a simpler rotation without havin to care about sustain. Why would I cripple myself by using something more complex, just to net a lower or at least the same result. Now this does not hold for all classes of course, but for magicka, i found this to be the case.

So @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_RichLambert , please consider at least reverting the light and medium armor changes and the reduction to elemental drain. It can't be that you have to use more than 2000 recovery to be able to sustain a rotation.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2017

Masel92 wrote: »

I have an example of why i think that the Sustain Reduction with Morrowind is way over the top:

This is a regular parse done on a Magicka Warden build that I use right now, BUT I used the Ghastly Eye Bowl drink to actually be able to sustain it through a regular dummy without using any heavy attacks. You see that i have a 1891 Magicka Drain per second and get 1583 magicka back every second. As I was interested how that would've looked in Homestead and with only the Elemental Drain change and Light Armor change reverted, I simulated the setup in the calculator and adjusted the values in two columns so that they match the Homestead update.

Here are the results:

you see that even with about 2000 recovery, i can NOT sustain a full light attack rotation infinetely. I didnt have vampire leveled yet, so i lost 10% recovery, but it's pretty frustrating to stand in front of the dummy and sacrificing so much to actually be able to sustain a regular rotation. I dont have alchemy leveled yet so i only got an uptime of 57% on the major intellect.

In Homestead i wouldve had no sustain issues at all. My drain/regeneration wouldve been positive.

I have heavy attack builds around, as you might know, and I also like that playstyle because it's easy and still feels powerful. But it is still awful that i do mouch more damage with a simpler rotation without havin to care about sustain. Why would I cripple myself by using something more complex, just to net a lower or at least the same result. Now this does not hold for all classes of course, but for magicka, i found this to be the case.

So @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_RichLambert , please consider at least reverting the light and medium armor changes and the reduction to elemental drain. It can't be that you have to use more than 2000 recovery to be able to sustain a rotation.

You don't have to. The only thing you have to do is realize that however you were playing before was wrong. Hitting A, A, A, A, A, A until a target is fried is not a play style that ZOS wants so, sorry, attack less frequently.

theamazingx · June 2017

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

I have an example of why i think that the Sustain Reduction with Morrowind is way over the top:

This is a regular parse done on a Magicka Warden build that I use right now, BUT I used the Ghastly Eye Bowl drink to actually be able to sustain it through a regular dummy without using any heavy attacks. You see that i have a 1891 Magicka Drain per second and get 1583 magicka back every second. As I was interested how that would've looked in Homestead and with only the Elemental Drain change and Light Armor change reverted, I simulated the setup in the calculator and adjusted the values in two columns so that they match the Homestead update.

Here are the results:

you see that even with about 2000 recovery, i can NOT sustain a full light attack rotation infinetely. I didnt have vampire leveled yet, so i lost 10% recovery, but it's pretty frustrating to stand in front of the dummy and sacrificing so much to actually be able to sustain a regular rotation. I dont have alchemy leveled yet so i only got an uptime of 57% on the major intellect.

In Homestead i wouldve had no sustain issues at all. My drain/regeneration wouldve been positive.

I have heavy attack builds around, as you might know, and I also like that playstyle because it's easy and still feels powerful. But it is still awful that i do mouch more damage with a simpler rotation without havin to care about sustain. Why would I cripple myself by using something more complex, just to net a lower or at least the same result. Now this does not hold for all classes of course, but for magicka, i found this to be the case.

So @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_RichLambert , please consider at least reverting the light and medium armor changes and the reduction to elemental drain. It can't be that you have to use more than 2000 recovery to be able to sustain a rotation.

You don't have to. The only thing you have to do is realize that however you were playing before was wrong. Hitting A, A, A, A, A, A until a target is fried is not a play style that ZOS wants so, sorry, attack less frequently.

"Attack less frequently" lololol no that is not the point of the sustain changes. You'll find I'm very much of the opinion that people just need to adapt, but that's even sillier than anything they've said.

Masel · June 2017

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

I have an example of why i think that the Sustain Reduction with Morrowind is way over the top:

This is a regular parse done on a Magicka Warden build that I use right now, BUT I used the Ghastly Eye Bowl drink to actually be able to sustain it through a regular dummy without using any heavy attacks. You see that i have a 1891 Magicka Drain per second and get 1583 magicka back every second. As I was interested how that would've looked in Homestead and with only the Elemental Drain change and Light Armor change reverted, I simulated the setup in the calculator and adjusted the values in two columns so that they match the Homestead update.

Here are the results:

you see that even with about 2000 recovery, i can NOT sustain a full light attack rotation infinetely. I didnt have vampire leveled yet, so i lost 10% recovery, but it's pretty frustrating to stand in front of the dummy and sacrificing so much to actually be able to sustain a regular rotation. I dont have alchemy leveled yet so i only got an uptime of 57% on the major intellect.

In Homestead i wouldve had no sustain issues at all. My drain/regeneration wouldve been positive.

I have heavy attack builds around, as you might know, and I also like that playstyle because it's easy and still feels powerful. But it is still awful that i do much more damage with a simpler rotation without having to care about sustain. Why would I cripple myself by using something more complex, just to net a lower or at least the same result. Now this does not hold for all classes of course, but for magicka, i found this to be the case.

So @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_RichLambert , please consider at least reverting the light and medium armor changes and the reduction to elemental drain. It can't be that you have to use more than 2000 recovery to be able to sustain a rotation.

You don't have to. The only thing you have to do is realize that however you were playing before was wrong. Hitting A, A, A, A, A, A until a target is fried is not a play style that ZOS wants so, sorry, attack less frequently.

I would get used to that, no problem. BUT their prior content is not suited to that at all. I won't do old content half as fast now, and that's definetely the case. It's just not worth the time to be honest, and that is a very common opinion in the game as afar as i can tell from the raiding community that I know. I went into vMA yesterday and it's just not fun to run out of resources with 1300 recovery. I'm glad i dont have to farm anything for gear besides HoF as I have all weapons/gear, but for newer players, that is plain awful.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2017

theamazingx wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

I have an example of why i think that the Sustain Reduction with Morrowind is way over the top:

This is a regular parse done on a Magicka Warden build that I use right now, BUT I used the Ghastly Eye Bowl drink to actually be able to sustain it through a regular dummy without using any heavy attacks. You see that i have a 1891 Magicka Drain per second and get 1583 magicka back every second. As I was interested how that would've looked in Homestead and with only the Elemental Drain change and Light Armor change reverted, I simulated the setup in the calculator and adjusted the values in two columns so that they match the Homestead update.

Here are the results:

you see that even with about 2000 recovery, i can NOT sustain a full light attack rotation infinetely. I didnt have vampire leveled yet, so i lost 10% recovery, but it's pretty frustrating to stand in front of the dummy and sacrificing so much to actually be able to sustain a regular rotation. I dont have alchemy leveled yet so i only got an uptime of 57% on the major intellect.

In Homestead i wouldve had no sustain issues at all. My drain/regeneration wouldve been positive.

I have heavy attack builds around, as you might know, and I also like that playstyle because it's easy and still feels powerful. But it is still awful that i do mouch more damage with a simpler rotation without havin to care about sustain. Why would I cripple myself by using something more complex, just to net a lower or at least the same result. Now this does not hold for all classes of course, but for magicka, i found this to be the case.

So @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_RichLambert , please consider at least reverting the light and medium armor changes and the reduction to elemental drain. It can't be that you have to use more than 2000 recovery to be able to sustain a rotation.

You don't have to. The only thing you have to do is realize that however you were playing before was wrong. Hitting A, A, A, A, A, A until a target is fried is not a play style that ZOS wants so, sorry, attack less frequently.

"Attack less frequently" lololol no that is not the point of the sustain changes. You'll find I'm very much of the opinion that people just need to adapt, but that's even sillier than anything they've said.

My quote came off more arrogantly than I meant so my apologies for that. Let me amend my statement ... there are plenty of people in Battlegrounds (for example) whose entire offense is A, A, A, A, A. They are used to most opponents simply melting under their barrage. But ... if you can out last the barrage they are left without resources and you can fry them quite easily. If you don't want to get fried by an opponent on the come back ... or if you're taking on a trial fight ... just change your pattern to A, A, heavy attack, A, A, heavy attack etc. Sure, the game will take a bit longer but it's not the end of the world.

Ashtaris · June 2017

I think the sustain changes are for some, demoralizing and hurt the people that are "On The Edge" the most. And what I mean by that are those people who were just about able to do that HM Vet dungeon, trial, vMA, etc. Now they see it's out of reach again and will they bother to keep trying, or just give up? And don't tell them to "adapt" because honestly, some us don't want to adapt. We have had to adapt since the game was released with all these balancing changes and after awhile it gets to be tiring. We find some sense of progression and then ZOS says "You are getting too powerful, so lets knock you back again with the giant nerf hammer." This time they went just a bit too far. They know it, but just too damn proud or stubborn to admit it.

Asgari · June 2017

If you are having sustain issue you are:

A: not at max level

B: not properly weaving in heavy attacks

C: a combination of both and or not properly setup gear wise.

Sustain is just as strong in most cases this update because of the increased heavy attack resource return.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2017

Ashtaris wrote: »

I think the sustain changes are for some, demoralizing and hurt the people that are "On The Edge" the most. And what I mean by that are those people who were just about able to do that HM Vet dungeon, trial, vMA, etc. Now they see it's out of reach again and will they bother to keep trying, or just give up? And don't tell them to "adapt" because honestly, some us don't want to adapt. We have had to adapt since the game was released with all these balancing changes and after awhile it gets to be tiring. We find some sense of progression and then ZOS says "You are getting too powerful, so lets knock you back again with the giant nerf hammer." This time they went just a bit too far. They know it, but just too damn proud or stubborn to admit it.

If you don't want to adapt than fine. Just don't be mad when others who are ok with it prosper.

Look at the Golden State Warriors for an example of what can happen when you adapt. If basketball was the same game as it was in 1970 or 1990 they would never be as good as they are. But they read the rules, figured out that 3 is better than 2 along with debunking the myth that 1 great shot in 20 seconds is better than an ok one in 6 seconds and bam! New dynasty.

Embrace change. You never know where it can bring you.

Also, it's an MMO. The one indisputable truth in MMOs is that if it's over performing it'll get nerfed eventually. Deal with it.

Dulkur · June 2017

Some people's expectations are such that they make themselves miserable. If you are no longer having fun, you should make a change, try a different game, role a new character, try different builds, or just take a break. All MMO have rebalancing, fixing bugs, which people cry about as nerfs even when they clearly had a significant advantage over other players or the intended difficulty level of the game.

You are complaining about sustain, and the effect it has on your character's dps in a game where the dps levels people are talking about are due to animation cancelling and firing off more attacks in a shorter timeframe than they should. How crazy is that? An unlimited number of too fast attacks, you really want no downside. Even games where characters are absurdly overpowered and are mowing down a constant stream of enemies I have yet to see anything comparable to the dps and resource exploitation in this game.

How sad would it be to have content additions and gameplay changes and feel no need to change your character, gear, skills, or rotation. I have quite a bit of fun with gear combination exploration and trying to make skill/gear combinations work. I would rather have a strong character I can play outside the meta than one following it, beating the meta-drones is pure bliss.

Post patch I still run into a number of characters that seem to have no problem maximizing sustain and damage, or sustain and tanking, or all 3.

Personofsecrets · June 2017

@ZOS_RichLambert

My actions per minute, as a tank, have been reduced by anywhere from 100 APM to 50 APM.

Yes, I can sustain my resources, but combat is also less intense and interesting because of changing resource sustaining.

I know that it is probably silly to tell you my finding because I think that it is likely that the development team deeply wants to lower players actions per minute. That being said, just maybe you will have some sympathy and help us return combat to being more interesting by returning something like the magic cost reduction CP spot.

Personofsecrets · June 2017

Dulkur wrote: »

Some people's expectations are such that they make themselves miserable. If you are no longer having fun, you should make a change, try a different game, role a new character, try different builds, or just take a break. All MMO have rebalancing, fixing bugs, which people cry about as nerfs even when they clearly had a significant advantage over other players or the intended difficulty level of the game.

You are complaining about sustain, and the effect it has on your character's dps in a game where the dps levels people are talking about are due to animation cancelling and firing off more attacks in a shorter timeframe than they should. How crazy is that? An unlimited number of too fast attacks, you really want no downside. Even games where characters are absurdly overpowered and are mowing down a constant stream of enemies I have yet to see anything comparable to the dps and resource exploitation in this game.

How sad would it be to have content additions and gameplay changes and feel no need to change your character, gear, skills, or rotation. I have quite a bit of fun with gear combination exploration and trying to make skill/gear combinations work. I would rather have a strong character I can play outside the meta than one following it, beating the meta-drones is pure bliss.

Post patch I still run into a number of characters that seem to have no problem maximizing sustain and damage, or sustain and tanking, or all 3.

>than they should

Opinion discarded

Personofsecrets · June 2017

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

I think the sustain changes are for some, demoralizing and hurt the people that are "On The Edge" the most. And what I mean by that are those people who were just about able to do that HM Vet dungeon, trial, vMA, etc. Now they see it's out of reach again and will they bother to keep trying, or just give up? And don't tell them to "adapt" because honestly, some us don't want to adapt. We have had to adapt since the game was released with all these balancing changes and after awhile it gets to be tiring. We find some sense of progression and then ZOS says "You are getting too powerful, so lets knock you back again with the giant nerf hammer." This time they went just a bit too far. They know it, but just too damn proud or stubborn to admit it.

If you don't want to adapt than fine. Just don't be mad when others who are ok with it prosper.

Look at the Golden State Warriors for an example of what can happen when you adapt. If basketball was the same game as it was in 1970 or 1990 they would never be as good as they are. But they read the rules, figured out that 3 is better than 2 along with debunking the myth that 1 great shot in 20 seconds is better than an ok one in 6 seconds and bam! New dynasty.

Embrace change. You never know where it can bring you.

Also, it's an MMO. The one indisputable truth in MMOs is that if it's over performing it'll get nerfed eventually. Deal with it.

I can't wait for the next financial crisis or world war.

You never know what a little change can bring!

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2017

Dulkur wrote: »

Some people's expectations are such that they make themselves miserable. If you are no longer having fun, you should make a change, try a different game, role a new character, try different builds, or just take a break. All MMO have rebalancing, fixing bugs, which people cry about as nerfs even when they clearly had a significant advantage over other players or the intended difficulty level of the game.

You are complaining about sustain, and the effect it has on your character's dps in a game where the dps levels people are talking about are due to animation cancelling and firing off more attacks in a shorter timeframe than they should. How crazy is that? An unlimited number of too fast attacks, you really want no downside. Even games where characters are absurdly overpowered and are mowing down a constant stream of enemies I have yet to see anything comparable to the dps and resource exploitation in this game.

How sad would it be to have content additions and gameplay changes and feel no need to change your character, gear, skills, or rotation. I have quite a bit of fun with gear combination exploration and trying to make skill/gear combinations work. I would rather have a strong character I can play outside the meta than one following it, beating the meta-drones is pure bliss.

Post patch I still run into a number of characters that seem to have no problem maximizing sustain and damage, or sustain and tanking, or all 3.

Slow Clap!