[SUGGESTION] How to Buff Master's Destruction Staves

dpencil1 · June 2017

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn

TLDR: Mathematically, the Master's Destruction Staff underperforms when compared to Maelstrom staves and even non-set staves with the Weapon Damage enchant. Considering the difficulty of the content involved in obtaining Master weapons, the enchantment should be potent enough to warrant the effort. Suggestion: Increase the max magicka bonus to 2000, the damage bonus to 750, and the cost reduction to 20%.

Simple comparison of Spell Damage Bonuses (assuming a 10:5 Magicka:Spell Damage ratio):

Non-Set Staff with Weapon Damage Enchant = 348 / 2 (5 second duration, 5 second cool down) = 174 Spell Damage bonus

Maelstrom Staff = 189 Spell Damage bonus

Master's Staff = 1032 magicka / 10.5 = 98.3 Spell Damage bonus
IF INCREASED TO 2000 magicka / 10.5 = 190.5 Spell Damage bonus
(to be exactly equal to Maelstrom, it would need to be 1985 magicka, but a round number would be nice, and just a hair stronger would be valid)

Concerning Destructive Touch and the Master's Staff bonus:

First, just to get some actual numbers to work with, these are the tool tip values for Shock Clench and Blockade of Storms on a Sorcerer with 48574 magicka and 2615 spell damage. The values themselves are not important, only the comparison between them. We also won't consider crit, as it effects all skills equally.

Blockade of Storms: 2611 cost, 2211 aoe dot damage over 8 seconds. Total damage: 17688 / 8 = 2211 DPS. Cost/DPS ratio: 1.18

Blockade with Maelstrom: 2611 cost, 2211 + 1341 = 3552 over 8 seconds. Total damage: 26040 / 8 = 3552 DPS. Cost/DPS ratio: 0.73 (160% stronger)

Shock Clench: 3070 cost, 5306 initial damage, 8120 dot damage over 8 seconds. Total damage: 13426 / 8 = 1678.25 DPS. Cost/DPS ratio: 1.83

Shock Clench with Master: 3070 cost, (5306 + 516 = 5822) + 8120 + (516 x 8 = 4128) = 18070 / 8 = 2258.75 DPS. Cost/DPS ratio: 1.36 (130% stronger)
WITH +750 AND -20% COST: 3070 - 614 = 2456 cost, (5306 + 750 = 6056) + 8120 + (750 x 8 = 6000) = 20176 / 8 = 2522 DPS. Cost/DPS ratio: 0.97 (150% stronger)

This change would provide a closer DPS increase and Cost/DPS ratio to what the Maelstrom weapon provides.

ZOS Team, please consider implementing the above suggestion to help incentivize the use of Master Destruction Staves and the Destructive Touch skill. A full review of all Master weapons may be worthwhile, but this is the only one I know enough about to offer suggested changes.

P.S. I'm not entirely sure if the extra damage bonus from the Master's Staff applies to the initial hit as well as the dot damage. I assume this in my calculations, but even if it doesn't, I don't think it makes enough difference to alter them.

P.P.S. I may be mistaken thinking that ZOS_Finn is the appropriate person to tag. I couldn't remember exactly who the itemization person is, so if anyone remembers, please tag them too.

Dymence · June 2017

I'm not sure if I misunderstood, but...

You're aware Maelstrom staves increase the damage of your light/heavy attacks while it is active, and not the blockade itself, right?

dpencil1 · June 2017

Yeah, I was assuming you'd be light attack weaving every second. Obviously, failure to do that would result in lower dps.

Taleof2Cities · June 2017

The supporting maths are great ... kudos to you for the awesome work.

However, the key question that's missing in the discussion is:

Why should Master staves be on par with Maelstrom staves?

dpencil1 · June 2017

Well to be fair, they wouldn't have to be totally equal. But they should at least be stronger than a non set staff with a Weapon Damage Glyph. And since Destructive Touch is a pretty bad skill in its current state, it would be nice if the Master's Staff, which requires a fair amount of effort to acquire, would make that skill truly viable.

There are many items and sets in the game that are relics from earlier ages of the game's life that don't fit into the current realm of power. They all deserve to be reviewed and updated to better fit with the good items that are currented on offer. The more truly good stuff we have to chose from, the more diversity.

andreasranasen · June 2017

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The supporting maths are great ... kudos to you for the awesome work.

However, the key question that's missing in the discussion is:

Why should Master staves be on par with Maelstrom staves?

Why not. vDSA is pretty dead because no one wants to do it because it's so long... So I'm all for making the rewards better to get more people in there

Drummerx04 · June 2017

As a stubborn user of sharpened master staves because sharpened staves won't drop from anything else, I approve this buff suggestion.

idk · June 2017

Really, both staves are fine as they are and do not have to be exactly equal, especially since the Master weapon is easier to get.

Heck, having one vMA and one master probably rocks since one would get the best of both worlds.

Drummerx04 · June 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Really, both staves are fine as they are and do not have to be exactly equal, especially since the Master weapon is easier to get.

Heck, having one vMA and one master probably rocks since one would get the best of both worlds.

The main benefit of master weapon in pve... it looks pretty cool.

KochDerDamonen · June 2017

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The supporting maths are great ... kudos to you for the awesome work.

However, the key question that's missing in the discussion is:

Why should Master staves be on par with Maelstrom staves?

@Taleof2Cities Even if it were equal/faintly stronger than vMA staves in the damage value department, it buffs a worse spell.

I would find it absolutely lovely if they retooled the vDSA weapons a bit. The Resto staff is fine, but little number tweaks across the board would be great. There is enough singleplayer content in this MMO, the vMA weapons look like butt IMO (except for the 2H axe), and it would do a good job of reviving some less active content. ^^

Dymence · June 2017

dpencil1 wrote: »

Yeah, I was assuming you'd be light attack weaving every second. Obviously, failure to do that would result in lower dps.

Fair enough then. I'm also pretty sure the master staff enchant only applies on the initial hit of destructive touch, making it even worse than it already is. It would be pretty cool if master staves would become viable and bis pve dps gear would become maelstrom+master weapon, but it's already been neglected for so long, I don't have too high hopes for it.

code65536 · June 2017

On the matter of max magicka vs. spell damage...

There aren't as many buffs to SD as there are to max magicka. The nominal max magicka gets buffs of 20% from CP, 9-10% from racial if you're using one of the three magicka races, class passives, mages guild passives, undaunted passives, and the War Horn stat increase. On the SD side, you just Major and Minor Prophecy (the availability of the latter is situational) and sorc class passives.

Although 1K magicka is not competitive with the 189 SD bonus, the gap isn't nearly as big as you make it out to be, and it is competitive with the 129 SD bonus. A buff to 1.5K would be sufficient if you're looking for parity. Also, the pets for sorcs scale off of max magicka but not spell damage, so for petsorcs, max magicka is better than spell damage.

dpencil1 · June 2017

Great comments everyone. Thanks for supporting the idea. Of course, I'd defer to ZOS to really crunch the numbers to figure out the amounts that would really be appropriate but I think we can all agree these values reflect a state of the game that has long since passed and need a tune up.

idk · June 2017

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Really, both staves are fine as they are and do not have to be exactly equal, especially since the Master weapon is easier to get.

Heck, having one vMA and one master probably rocks since one would get the best of both worlds.

The main benefit of master weapon in pve... it looks pretty cool.

Some top players sometimes use Clench on sorc builds.

Joy_Division · June 2017

Part of the problem is that the Master Weapons buff a very inefficient skill.

dpencil1 · June 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Really, both staves are fine as they are and do not have to be exactly equal, especially since the Master weapon is easier to get.

Heck, having one vMA and one master probably rocks since one would get the best of both worlds.

The main benefit of master weapon in pve... it looks pretty cool.

Some top players sometimes use Clench on sorc builds.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I started looking at Clench and the Master staff more closely.

The inefficiency is also why I suggested upping the cost reduction to 20%. Of course, if the base cost were reduced, then the cost reduction on the staff could remain as is.