STEVIL wrote: »

Fang_of_Lorkhaj wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

Why not both?

I've been hearing that julianos is better.

Well better doesn't matter if both are good and can be used.

Frankly it depends on what else your build is doing.

if you are a staff build using destro and have therefore got a noticable part of your damage from shock or fire or ice, then julianos across the board bonus is likely going to outshine the bigger war maiden bonus that applies only to MAGIC damage attacks.

if you are healing a lot, then again the julianos boost for healing also better than war maiden.

But if you are doing neither of these and just throwing around magic damage, then war maiden may be better.

But... really you should be comparing war maiden to other drop sets because as drop sets they can occupy the jewel slots while julianos cannot.

I'm wearing 5 moondancer. 3 old jewelry. 2 sharp moonswords. 2 grothdar. 5 julianos/5 maiden

Neither. War maiden isn't great on Templar imo. Scathing mage wins in most situations for me.

For PvE? Juli hands down. Any good templar will know what a high % of their dps is reflective light/ele blockade/shooting star/destro ult.

5 juli + 5 moon is p good this patch

Where's the both option? You can use both sets if you use Dual wield. Yes, that's still viable. Just use Channeled Focus.

Phica_Lovic wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Julianos cause war maiden doesn't boost heals...

Spell-damage: Affects how much Damage or Healing your Magicka-based abilities and weapons cause.

Classic Magicka based vs Magic damage mix up.

Check your tooltip to make sure your attacks are dealing MAGIC damage.

Spell Damage: Flat boost to all your spells/all attacks based on your magicka pool.

Magic Damage: Specific type of damage, equivalent to elemental, poison, oblivion, and others.

War Maiden will work for select Sorc builds (not lightning based), Magblades, and Magdens. If your attacks aren't dealing magic damage, then the set is worthless for you. Templars DPS tree are based in DoTs and burn/fire damage. So, not helpful for the Magplar. It also won't raise the DPS for your staff attacks, no matter which element you pick.

The answer is Julianos.

Lum1on wrote: »

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

Check your tooltip to make sure your attacks are dealing MAGIC damage.

Spell Damage: Flat boost to all your spells/all attacks based on your magicka pool.

Magic Damage: Specific type of damage, equivalent to elemental, poison, oblivion, and others.

War Maiden will work for select Sorc builds (not lightning based), Magblades, and Magdens. If your attacks aren't dealing magic damage, then the set is worthless for you. Templars DPS tree are based in DoTs and burn/fire damage. So, not helpful for the Magplar. It also won't raise the DPS for your staff attacks, no matter which element you pick.

The answer is Julianos.

Wow. I'd just like to know what skills you use? You know about Puncturing sweeps, Dark flare, Purifying light (the initial hit only though, the latter one can't be increased by anything other than your max. magicka pool), Radiant oppression, Blazing spear, Burning light ... ?

It depends on what gain you are getting from your weapon aspects of your rotations.

For magplars and most magical builds the destroy staves add elemental damage weaves along with 8% overall damage boost to area or single target dam. They also enable several dot that are again elemental. These all add for dps.

They also provide a heavy attack for sustain.

Additionally, racials can boost fire dam.

Dual sworders add in their passive and 1wth slot but lose the weave strength and the heavy for sustain is directed to stamina.

I have never wanted to run magic damage only on a macular and the WM boost is not big enough and is so limited in scope that I see it as way less beneficial in almost all situations.

Lum1on wrote: »

First of all, I know this doesn't cover it all and is not as simple. But I think you can get an idea what I'm looking for with this.

snip

I hope I covered it all and didn't leave too much out of this. Getting kinda tired here so if there's something you don't understand just let me know and I'll clarify it more.

Thanks for putting the numbers down, but you missed key other variables;

e.g. ultimate, weapon proc enchants and engulfing flames to name a few off of the top of my head

I have tested both sets on a dummy and in dungeon (not raid) environments and Julianos consistently out performed War Maiden to the tune of ~3-5%

Also - this exact same conversation is going on at tamriel foundary in Nos' thread;

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/noss-guide-to-magicka-templar-trial4-man-dps-thiefs-guild/page/22/

General consensus there as well from people who have actually tested the set is War Maiden always comes out worse (in PvE) when using a 'meta' dps rotation.

Lum1on wrote: »

I've done that mistake way too many times and if someone just says on some forums that "War maiden is better than Julianos ONLY of more than 72% of your damage is magic" I'm not going to believe any of it. I want numbers, I want DPS parses, ...

I am confused here, your maths and calculations presented in this thread are only for a 9 second theoretical parse, and dont include ultimate or weapon enchants.

The current consensus from people who have actually tested is that julianos is better, and bar a 9 second theoretical parse without any actual testing you are making assertions based on what?

At this stage i would say the burden of proof sits on your side of the fence (9 second theoretical parse missing key skills doesnt count)

(Please note i would love to see a build / parse / test from in game which shows War Maiden as the superior choice - i tried to get it to work but couldn't)

jeeves3krwb17_ESO wrote: »

I am confused here, your maths and calculations presented in this thread are only for a 9 second theoretical parse, and dont include ultimate or weapon enchants.

The current consensus from people who have actually tested is that julianos is better, and bar a 9 second theoretical parse without any actual testing you are making assertions based on what?

At this stage i would say the burden of proof sits on your side of the fence (9 second theoretical parse missing key skills doesnt count)

(Please note i would love to see a build / parse / test from in game which shows War Maiden as the superior choice - i tried to get it to work but couldn't)

I never, and I repeat NEVER, said this 9 second parse is all you need. No. I also said that this does NOT cover it all but you get the idea. And the whole idea of it was simply to show that if (and at the moment I still mean if) Julianos is better it can't be far superior than War maiden. You can see the theoretical difference in a basic 9 second meta rotation which is not an asbolute truth, it's more of a guideline. And I thought you'd understand that.

And if people have indeed tested these two sets properly why they can't show the DPS parses so others can confirm it as well? Or if they have calculated it taking every single small detail into account, why not release the formulas how they ended up where they're at now.

Again I want to say I haven't (or at least that's what I've meant) say War maiden is and will be always the better choise. No. Those two sets are extremely close and are my opinions based on my own experiments and calculations (which aren't complete, yes, I know and I've said it many times already).

And I'm sorry but I do not change my mind just because someone else says otherwise. I will change my mind when I see some evidence about it and/or can prove myself wrong by doing tests someone says they've gotten their results with.

EDIT: Just to make sure. I re-read what I wrote and not sure does it sound hostile, or anything. I don't mean to be aggressive here, so please don't take it like that. I'm just kind of sick of people who claim the only truth is something someone once said on the internet without any actual proof. (Not pointing fingers at you, though...)

@jeeves3krwb17_ESO

Well, we sure can agree on one thing. It ain't easy topic to debate which one is better.

I haven't based my opinions on that 9 second mathematical calculation. I actually did yesterday 10 tests with both sets and here are the conditions (please let me know if there's something you'd do differently to get more accurate results):

Melee setup:

• CP's were not changed in between the tests (optimized for this build only by using Asayre's CP optimisation)
• I used (2) Grothdarr, (5) Julianos / (5) War maiden, (3) Moondancer, (2) Willpower and (1) Maelstrom inferno -- all armor pieces had the same amount of divines traits.
• I used Atronach mundus, one recovery glyph and Witchmother's potent brew drink to manage the sustain on my own.
• I did not use spell damage potions which would increase light attack damage slightly.
• Only elemental drain was used.
• I made sure I repeated the same rotation in every test (amount of attacks for each skill, etc.)
• I was not able to make sure the crit. chance remained the same, so that's why I made 10 tests with each set to get an average.
• I did light attack before each and every skill.
• Each test took about 60 seconds (give or take few seconds because of weapon enchantment proc's, etc.) and in that time I was able to get Shooting star ready - so I thought it's a nice time anyways?
• I did not calculate dual wield light attacks, Purifying light's proc damage or Grothdarr because they are not affected by spell damage.
• I also didn't calculate Burning status effect because the damage of it is significantly low on Templars (but I did make sure one parse did not have twice as many proc's as the other test).

Skills I used (and rotation):

• Elemental rage
• Channeled focus - Elemental drain
• Blazing spear - Elemental blockade [bar swap]
• Reflective light - Purifying light - (3) Puncturing sweeps [bar swap]
• Blazing spear - Elemental blockade [bar swap]
• Reflective light - Purifying light - (2) Puncturing sweeps [bar swap]

I didn't calculate the DPS differences because there are too many variables that affect it, so I decided to make sure I have the same amount of attacks on everything and took the total damag done with each skill. Then I calculated the average amount of the total damage done for each skill and I summed up those averages and got the following results:

Result:

• Julianos (total damage done): 1 117 196
• War maiden: 1 132 157
• Difference: ~1,4% (on behalf of War maiden)

Like you mentioned earlier this does not take, for example, DK's extra flame damage buff for group into account which would increase the damage of some skills. But I also haven't used Minor berserk which obviously boosts magic damage more than elemental damage if those abilities deal more damage.

These tests also did not have our execute, Radiant oppression, in it because I simply did not have any time for it. But if I got better results with War maiden and Puncturing sweeps I would except to get even better results on execute phase because Radiant oppression deals way more damage than Puncturing sweeps the less the target has health.

Conclusion
Yes, my first mathematical calculation was slightly off based on the 9 second test I only calculated. But I believe this only strengths my theory that these two sets are extremely close to each others. Still I want to say War maiden is better in an ideal situation. But Julianos is not a bad choise either.

I also tested this with my ranged build (I use Dark flare nowadays because Force pulse is extremely expensive skill to use) and I saw that War maiden performs ~2,1% better than Julianos with that setup (same conditions, 60 second fight, CP's were not changed, same rotation, equal amount of attacks with each skill, ...).

I have screenshots of all these tests if you want to confirm my calculations by yourself.

From my own experience, while one can fidn a scenario where Wm is competitive or stronger my views align with those of the preoponderance of those here and elsewhere referenced - Julianos is the better choice overall. When you look beyond the G/t PVE dummy mindset and look at healing done or sustain gain or light weaves from staff attacks (which will be elemental damage) it all seems to fall in place for the broader julianos set.

Whether or not someone is convinced to change their opinion based off a short parse in a special scenario by all the othe results - that is up to them.

But one thing that does come into play as well is, for me, practically speaking, even if julianos vs war maiden ends up being equal or close enough not to matter or circumstantially split the crafting for trait control and weight control vs farming for traits and pre-determined weight still shift it to Julianos if you are not looking at jewelry.

But this is a lot of pixels for a very specific setup argument.

I have both. The only way to

techprince wrote: »

Julianos for PvE, War Maiden for PvP.

I keep seeing this mentioned, but it doesn't make any sense. Why would their performance be different between PvE and PvP?

War Maiden seems like the slightly better set on paper, but in practice they're almost indistinguishable.

jeeves3krwb17_ESO wrote: »

I think I have identified the discrepancies in our testing.

Based on your calculations you dps'd for a set period of time, which isn't representative of actual conditions and 1,132,157 / 60 = 18,869 dps.

I would state that if you are only pulling 18,869 dps then your rotation is far from optimal. On this basis, your criteria for which skills are used (mag vs elem) and how much relative dps they contribute is very different to mine. Unfortunately I will not be able to test / post my results until Sunday due to real life commitments.

Thought you, or someone else, might check it out and mention it. Well, that's why I tried to say which skills I did not include and that I'm using Atronach mundus, Channeled focus (instead of Rearming trap because it's unreliable when doing checks like these - at least I feel like it), Witchmother's potent brew drink and one recovery glyph on my jewelry. I'm able to do close to 40k with the "correct" build and rotation when I'm applying Elemental drain by myself.

And you simply can't just divide that a slightly over 1mil with 60s because it's missing a lot of damage. That 1,132,157 was the damage that gets affected by spell damage. So actually my overall DPS was a little bit over 25k with basically as high sustain as possible. But that's not the point here.

jeeves3krwb17_ESO wrote: »

Additionally, dark flare is actually more expensive than force pulse, and importantly is terrible to weave and doesn't give magicka back from elem drain. So again if you are using dark flare because you are having magicka issues I am unable to relate because that is the opposite of the logic I understand

Well, Dark flare is in fact ~20,0% more expensive skill without any cost reduction (flat or %) but for ranged build it's possible to do either four Force pulses or three Dark flares (weaving has never been a problem for me - I think it's like the same than with Funnel health; some people are struggling with it for whatever reason) and that means Dark flare is cheaper. It also deals more damage with three casts then four Force pulses.

And what do you mean Dark flare doesn't give you any magicka back? ZOS changed how Elemental drain works. It now applies Minor magickasteal to the target(s) and whenever you're dealing damage to them it returns magicka to the caster (can happen once every 1 second). It's not only related to elemental damage anymore.

R0C95 wrote: »

Ok, can someone help answer this for me?

I feel that I am a solid dps magplar already. However, what damage skills are considered elemental vs magic? The damage skills I run on my magplar are jabs, shards, Jesus beam, wall of elements. I would assume woe is elemental... but the other skills say fire in the description but I'm told that they aren't? Just want to know if it's worth the time and gold to pick up a war maiden set.

The description tells you the damage type.

As a magplar, you flame damage abilities are:

- Wall of elements
- Reflective light
- Staff light/heavy attacks

If you use force pulse, that is also elemental damage.

The rest of your skills are magic damage, including your main spammables (puncturing sweep and radiant oppression).