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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508927/

The giant difference between Mag and Stam

  • DeadlyRecluse
    DeadlyRecluse
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    Vaoh wrote: »
    . Magicka offers the Destro Ult and Negates.... you simply cannot beat that :/

    Stam can drop negates, too...

    If anything, the existence of Negates is an argument in favor of Stam.

    I know, I'm nitpicking.
    Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub
  • UppGRAYxDD
    UppGRAYxDD
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    The biggest difference imo is dodge roll and shuffle. You can burst on magicka and stamina, you can 1vX on magicka and stamina, but you sure cant dodge roll shuffle on a magicka toon. Plus the animation cancelling on stamina characters is light years faster then magicka
    "Stendarr's mercy be upon you, for the vigil has none to spare."
  • Malamar1229
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    Taylor_MB wrote: »
    Juli'St wrote: »
    "- Blocking (strategically)
    - Dodge rolling (strategically)
    - Damage shield (pretty much spammable)"

    lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

    ...or u make ONE or u make other. Combat end and u is death!

    Its absurd the diference. GAME need change about it.

    Can't even decipher what you are trying to say.

    Nonetheless, here are some hints:
    - 1 pc Bloodpsawn for stam regen
    - Stam regen glyph
    - Amberplasm for 300 stamina AND 300 magicka regen for 5th piece bonus (locked behind a paywall which is why I don't use it personally)
    - Wear 5/1/1 for Undaunted Mettle passive to increase max stamina (and other stats)
    - Ice Staff blocking consumes magicka and provides blocking mitigation almost on par with s+b
    - Shadow Dancer is a magicka set that also gives stamina regen

    Again, magicka users don't need the exact same damage mitigation mechanics as stamina uses have. However, there is nothing stopping you from building for stamina regen into a magicka build. Plus magicka uses have access to damage shields and ice staff.

    Going to point out that comparing shields to dodge rolling is a bit ridiculous. So shields scale very, very poorly against multiple opponents whereas dodge rolling shines.
  • Own
    Own
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    I think that either can be played to an equal status and has their own strengths and weaknesses. A magblade can be a monster in a 1v1, but open world he might have issues with survival. MagSorcs are fine. You like your Mdk. Mtemplars seem ok, but are the easier class to fight for me.

    I find stamblades the be the easiest damage to block/deal with right now. Most have the same pattern of laying Incap's down. They seem to need Troll King, so damage is lower. The dodge roll spam is annoying. Well-fitted/tumbling might be a little op?

    Stamtemplars seems pretty good still. I don't feel like they can lay as much damage down on the PotL (Power of the Light) without going defensive. Stopping the damage before it stops seems to be the way to do it, especially against DoT/PotL builds.

    StamDKs have the best resource management. They can run heavy and dps pretty easily. I find most are using Proc sets. Also look out for Debuff builds. This has the potential to be a long fight.

    StamSorcs have good resource management as most will run dark deal, but it's easily bashable. Most people have issues bashing them, but it's a timing thing. You have to wait a second, then bash at the END of the animation. If you bash too early and "miss" the timing, you will not be able to bash again to stop the dark deal. You get one shot at it. You're probably going to be getting Dizzying Swing (RIP WB) spammed. Get really close or get some distance and keep moving. You have to DPS them to get the Dizzying Swings to stop. If you see a long, drawn out heavy attack coming, hold block because it's gonna be a dawnbreaker.

    Good Luck!
  • Juli'St
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    l3alls wrote: »
    I think that either can be played to an equal status and has their own strengths and weaknesses. A magblade can be a monster in a 1v1, but open world he might have issues with survival. MagSorcs are fine. You like your Mdk. Mtemplars seem ok, but are the easier class to fight for me.

    I find stamblades the be the easiest damage to block/deal with right now. Most have the same pattern of laying Incap's down. They seem to need Troll King, so damage is lower. The dodge roll spam is annoying. Well-fitted/tumbling might be a little op?

    Stamtemplars seems pretty good still. I don't feel like they can lay as much damage down on the PotL (Power of the Light) without going defensive. Stopping the damage before it stops seems to be the way to do it, especially against DoT/PotL builds.

    StamDKs have the best resource management. They can run heavy and dps pretty easily. I find most are using Proc sets. Also look out for Debuff builds. This has the potential to be a long fight.

    StamSorcs have good resource management as most will run dark deal, but it's easily bashable. Most people have issues bashing them, but it's a timing thing. You have to wait a second, then bash at the END of the animation. If you bash too early and "miss" the timing, you will not be able to bash again to stop the dark deal. You get one shot at it. You're probably going to be getting Dizzying Swing (RIP WB) spammed. Get really close or get some distance and keep moving. You have to DPS them to get the Dizzying Swings to stop. If you see a long, drawn out heavy attack coming, hold block because it's gonna be a dawnbreaker.

    Good Luck!

    ty for the adance, u is amazing :)
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    The sm
    Vaoh wrote: »
    NACtron wrote: »
    Magicka dps is overall vastly superior for raid v raid/medium group play. So much so stamina dps has pratically no place in anything bigger than a group of 8 besides being a rapids/caltrops provider.

    Stamina dps has strong advantages in 1v1, ganking and very small group play though magicka can be viable option if built right.

    In my opinion stamina needs to be buffed just slightly so it can compete in raid v raid again. Not a huge buff. Frankly I find the balance to be acceptable enough right now. My Stamplar is for battlegrounds and running solo. My mag DK is for raid v raid large scale PvP.

    For PvE? Stamina is no longer as bad as you think it is. They were buffed in Morrowind, mostly in the form of Magicka nerfs. With an organized raid group and the correct raid composition, Stamina builds should put out insane DPS that surpasses Magicka by more than a little, though this would mainly apply to boss fights (aka single target DPS as a whole) and would require them to be in melee range.

    For PvP Stamina is stronger in general, but cannot compete in zerg fights. Magicka offers the Destro Ult and Negates.... you simply cannot beat that :/
    Magicka Sorcerers in particular are bound to be prevalent because they provide both of those Ultimates at a reduced cost via passive and can Streak around for high mobility in laggy situations. Plus Magicka characters have damage shields that become quite powerful, especially because of the CP system and how AoE Caps mitigate their damage taken in ball groups. They're simply suited well to survive in severe lag.

    I wish the PvE folks would get their meta story straight and make it crystal clear to the community and the developers. On the PTS notes i still saw the same prominent lobbyists argue that stam was still "useless" and now all of a sudden before the official release of Morrowind, stam is all of a sudden OK?

    Quite frankly I don't know who to believe anymore, but I do know that the hyperbole throw around on these forums by subjective people do not help at all; if anything they muddle the issue because no mater how much they insist otherwise, the balance is not nearly as divergent as they claim it to be.

    As far as the OP, I think it is fair to say that stam has advantages and disadvantages, whether or not it is better than magicka depends on the situation. In general I think the smaller the scale of the fight, the more potential stam has to shine; it generally has quicker burst damage and is more elusive. In the sort of huge scale battles ZoS originally advertsied the game, mobility and single target burst, while still important in individual engagements, become less relevant as numbers will trump all.
    Edited by Joy_Division on May 30, 2017 10:19PM
    "Dragon leap is NOT overperforming. You are underperforming." - ZarkingFrued

    Joy's Old but still useful for newer players guide for beating VMA

  • DisgracefulMind
    DisgracefulMind
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    The sm
    Vaoh wrote: »
    NACtron wrote: »
    Magicka dps is overall vastly superior for raid v raid/medium group play. So much so stamina dps has pratically no place in anything bigger than a group of 8 besides being a rapids/caltrops provider.

    Stamina dps has strong advantages in 1v1, ganking and very small group play though magicka can be viable option if built right.

    In my opinion stamina needs to be buffed just slightly so it can compete in raid v raid again. Not a huge buff. Frankly I find the balance to be acceptable enough right now. My Stamplar is for battlegrounds and running solo. My mag DK is for raid v raid large scale PvP.

    For PvE? Stamina is no longer as bad as you think it is. They were buffed in Morrowind, mostly in the form of Magicka nerfs. With an organized raid group and the correct raid composition, Stamina builds should put out insane DPS that surpasses Magicka by more than a little, though this would mainly apply to boss fights (aka single target DPS as a whole) and would require them to be in melee range.

    For PvP Stamina is stronger in general, but cannot compete in zerg fights. Magicka offers the Destro Ult and Negates.... you simply cannot beat that :/
    Magicka Sorcerers in particular are bound to be prevalent because they provide both of those Ultimates at a reduced cost via passive and can Streak around for high mobility in laggy situations. Plus Magicka characters have damage shields that become quite powerful, especially because of the CP system and how AoE Caps mitigate their damage taken in ball groups. They're simply suited well to survive in severe lag.

    I wish the PvE folks would get their meta story straight and make it crystal clear to the community and the developers. On the PTS notes i still saw the same prominent lobbyists argue that stam was still "useless" and now all of a sudden before the official release of Morrowind, stam is all of a sudden OK?

    Quite frankly I don't know who to believe anymore, but I do know that the hyperbole throw around on these forums by subjective people do not help at all; if anything they muddle the issue because no mater how much they insist otherwise, the balance is not nearly as divergent as they claim it to be.

    As far as the OP, I think it is fair to say that stam has advantages and disadvantages, whether or not it is better than magicka depends on the situation. In general I think the smaller the scale of the fight, the more potential stam has to shine; it generally has quicker burst damage and is more elusive. In the sort of huge scale battles ZoS originally advertsied the game, mobility and single target burst, while still important in individual engagements, become less relevant as numbers will trump all.

    Stam has become more viable in PvE, but not as viable as magicka. If that helps clarify anything lol.
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  • zyk
    zyk
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    The biggest disparity between Stamina and Magicka builds is often overlooked. It is that the following functions, with one exception, are Stamina only:

    - sneak/stealth
    - sprint
    - bash
    - roll dodge
    - block (except for ice staves)

    In a game with a strategic limitation of 5 ability and 1 ultimate slots per bar and only 2 bars (except for sorc), this makes building and playing Stamina characters *much* easier.

    This advantage was somewhat offset when there were few Stamina class abilities and ultimates, but this is no longer true. Even in groups, Stamina builds are easier to play, can hit harder, have better mobility and are less constrained by CC.

    Edited by zyk on May 31, 2017 12:09AM
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you"
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  • mvffins
    mvffins
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    Juli'St wrote: »
    Serious, my set not is so bad: Seducer, Molag, torug and i cant block nothing (im templar magic in my main). .

    Nope, thats a PvE leveling set as Seducer is simply sustain and Torug is.......wtf? lol
  • Elong
    Elong
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    Hi Iskra.
  • Juli'St
    Juli'St
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    mvffins wrote: »
    Juli'St wrote: »
    Serious, my set not is so bad: Seducer, Molag, torug and i cant block nothing (im templar magic in my main). .

    Nope, thats a PvE leveling set as Seducer is simply sustain and Torug is.......wtf? lol

    ...and u propose?
  • Rickter
    Rickter
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    I'd agree with the OP if my death recount wasnt constantly saying "Mages Fury"
    RickterESO
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  • Vaoh
    Vaoh
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    The sm
    Vaoh wrote: »
    NACtron wrote: »
    Magicka dps is overall vastly superior for raid v raid/medium group play. So much so stamina dps has pratically no place in anything bigger than a group of 8 besides being a rapids/caltrops provider.

    Stamina dps has strong advantages in 1v1, ganking and very small group play though magicka can be viable option if built right.

    In my opinion stamina needs to be buffed just slightly so it can compete in raid v raid again. Not a huge buff. Frankly I find the balance to be acceptable enough right now. My Stamplar is for battlegrounds and running solo. My mag DK is for raid v raid large scale PvP.

    For PvE? Stamina is no longer as bad as you think it is. They were buffed in Morrowind, mostly in the form of Magicka nerfs. With an organized raid group and the correct raid composition, Stamina builds should put out insane DPS that surpasses Magicka by more than a little, though this would mainly apply to boss fights (aka single target DPS as a whole) and would require them to be in melee range.

    For PvP Stamina is stronger in general, but cannot compete in zerg fights. Magicka offers the Destro Ult and Negates.... you simply cannot beat that :/
    Magicka Sorcerers in particular are bound to be prevalent because they provide both of those Ultimates at a reduced cost via passive and can Streak around for high mobility in laggy situations. Plus Magicka characters have damage shields that become quite powerful, especially because of the CP system and how AoE Caps mitigate their damage taken in ball groups. They're simply suited well to survive in severe lag.

    I wish the PvE folks would get their meta story straight and make it crystal clear to the community and the developers. On the PTS notes i still saw the same prominent lobbyists argue that stam was still "useless" and now all of a sudden before the official release of Morrowind, stam is all of a sudden OK?

    Quite frankly I don't know who to believe anymore, but I do know that the hyperbole throw around on these forums by subjective people do not help at all; if anything they muddle the issue because no mater how much they insist otherwise, the balance is not nearly as divergent as they claim it to be.

    As far as the OP, I think it is fair to say that stam has advantages and disadvantages, whether or not it is better than magicka depends on the situation. In general I think the smaller the scale of the fight, the more potential stam has to shine; it generally has quicker burst damage and is more elusive. In the sort of huge scale battles ZoS originally advertsied the game, mobility and single target burst, while still important in individual engagements, become less relevant as numbers will trump all.

    @Joy_Division

    Well it's an wierd situation because ZOS changed so much stuff this patch. No one can say with 100% certainly yet until everything is thoroughly tested. Here's the breakdown:
    • Magicka was dominant last patch by a lot, especially in AoE damage.
    • Sustain nerfs target Magicka more than Stamina. Magicka characters could sustain last patch easily thanks to Necrotic Orb providing group Magicka restore, which is now gone. Minor Magickasteal was also nerfed by 25% (400 mag/sec down to 300 mag/sec). Stamina is easily gained through quick+powerful heavy attacks and the Master Restoration staff enchant.
    • Stamina recieved passive buffs, and DW users in particular now take 25% reduced damage in trials (ZOS said either all or only boss fight damage in trials is now considered "AoE"). Blade Cloak is very strong.
    • Stamina gained an entirely new DoT with Caltrops becoming a great way to increase AoE DPS (though still not as great as Magicka AoE DPS)
    • Magicka Sorcs (main OP class spec) were nerfed. Volatile Familiar recieved a massive 20% damage nerf, which is further amplified because Daedric Prey now increases Volatile Familiar damage by a smaller raw amount since it's percent-based.
    • It is now easy to run 2x Precise or 1x Precise/1x Infused Dual Wield weapons in Morrowind on Stamina characters. In an organized setting, Stamina no longer needs to rely on Sharpened to reach the penetration cap. *requires smart group setup*
    • Huge buff - Stamina has powerful, low cost Ultimates. This allows them to become prime candidates to use the War Machine trial set. Not gonna elaborate on how OP this is just yet :)
    • More stuff that I probably missed. Generally, both Mag and Stam were nerfed, but Stamina recieved tons of buffs to compensate.


    Give it time. All of the big endgame PvEers are still to to test a lot of stuff before deciding what is truly best for DPS. Tank-wise DKs are still the best thanks to a new build. Healer-wise Templars are still best, though it is not out of the questions for one Healer to be a Warden.

    I have my ideas.... I just need Morrowind to release. No matter how things turn out, BOTH Magicka and Stamina are "viable" in trials next patch.
    Edited by Vaoh on May 31, 2017 8:49PM
  • Joy_Division
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    @Vaoh - TY for the explanation
    "Dragon leap is NOT overperforming. You are underperforming." - ZarkingFrued

    Joy's Old but still useful for newer players guide for beating VMA

  • Mr_Nobody
    Mr_Nobody
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    Purge needs a complete rework or nerf as it is the only reason Ball groups exist.
    ~ @Niekas ~

    Mr Nobody (Magplar) ~ Grand Overlord
    Mr NØbody (Magmancer) ~ A better Magplar version
    Niekas (Magblade) ~ Havoc Squad

  • Satiar
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    Mr_Nobody wrote: »
    Purge needs a complete rework or nerf as it is the only reason Ball groups exist.

    You mean it's the only reason anyone can take defended keeps, surely.
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  • FearlessOne_2014
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    Basically it comes down to this.

    If you want to have a set-up that's more solo to small scale in PvP outside of sorc you will do far better and have a much easier time on a Stamina based builds.

    If you want to have a set up for organized group fight consisting of 12 or more players outside of DK. You would do far better and have a much easier time on a Magicka based build.

    Yes it's pretty much not balanced at all. However MMORPG genre is a PvE genre so no suprise here.

    I now mostly PvPs on Stamina based characters even tho I'm a mage at heart. Because of how much better stamina is in solo and small scale. Both play styles are pigeonholed like this sadly. Good thing is that the PvE side of this game is actually pretty good.

    I plays MOBAs for my PvP competitive PvP fixes. If you do the same you'll find almost all of your problems, aginst shady PvP in MMOs disappear over night.
    Edited by FearlessOne_2014 on June 2, 2017 1:01AM
    Hope is Nothing More, than a Postponed Disappointment
  • silky_soft
    silky_soft
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    Someone got ganked lol
    Haha block, ha rip.
    Here $15, goat mount please. Not paying 45 : lol :
    Netch is free with a cleanse and free magika. You nerf siphon into the ground. Nice balance team.
  • CatchMeTrolling
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    Stam is better overall I'd say but magicka is king in cyrodiil. By king I mean in zerg v zerg settings which is what cyrodiil mostly consists of.

    Small scale, solo, 1v1 open world engagements belong to stam. While zerg v zerg and zerg wiping capability belongs to magic.

    It's yin & yang really both can't have it all , could you really imagine how over the top stam would be if they could access the same tools as magicka & vice versa.
    Ebonheart Pact: Templar - Overlord - Knight Paladin Tiberium Aka The Golden Saint

  • FearlessOne_2014
    FearlessOne_2014
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    Stam is better overall I'd say but magicka is king in cyrodiil. By king I mean in zerg v zerg settings which is what cyrodiil mostly consists of.

    Small scale, solo, 1v1 open world engagements belong to stam. While zerg v zerg and zerg wiping capability belongs to magic.

    It's yin & yang really both can't have it all , could you really imagine how over the top stam would be if they could access the same tools as magicka & vice versa.

    Sadly you are correct. That's how ZOS made the game. Still waiting on magicka version of duel wield, tho I will not hold my breath.
    Hope is Nothing More, than a Postponed Disappointment
  • JWillCHS
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    zyk wrote: »
    The biggest disparity between Stamina and Magicka builds is often overlooked. It is that the following functions, with one exception, are Stamina only:

    - sneak/stealth
    - sprint
    - bash
    - roll dodge
    - block (except for ice staves)

    In a game with a strategic limitation of 5 ability and 1 ultimate slots per bar and only 2 bars (except for sorc), this makes building and playing Stamina characters *much* easier.

    This advantage was somewhat offset when there were few Stamina class abilities and ultimates, but this is no longer true. Even in groups, Stamina builds are easier to play, can hit harder, have better mobility and are less constrained by CC.

    This. Not to mention when we talk about PvP, people automatically assume that the discussion involves the CP campaign.

    Remember that a big part of the Morrowind expansion is Battlegrounds; a none CP scenario. Stamina characters usually shine and are typically higher on the leaderboard at the end of the match.

    It can get pretty chaotic with 4v4v4. Although 2v2v2 is going to be more balance because because the duo combinations are WAY more forgiving. But burst damage is the name of the game for BGs in most matches.

    Magicka Templar and Warden exceed in group play in BGs with an adequate amount of DPS spread throughout the entire group. The magicka DK is more forgiving and it's completely opposite with the magicka NB. The magicka Sorc is the only one without question that can be effective with a solo/get-rekt mindset without having to try too hard. In fact, it's the only magicka archetype that works better than the others when running with a relic in Capture the Flag which Stam builds are obviously good at.



  • Xvorg
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    Juli'St wrote: »
    Serious, my set not is so bad: Seducer, Molag, torug and i cant block nothing (im templar magic in my main). Or i choice block, or roll, or... just it, after 3 secound's i die cause any gime a reverse slash or that skill from NB to make me crazy :D

    I really think, ESO need more balance, a bit more stam to mag and mag to stam build.

    Found your problem... you have no jewelry..
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