Dungeon Finder Suggestion (PC)

Crafts_Many_Boxes · May 2017

Hey all, I'm still relatively new to ESO but I've observed something regarding the dungeon finder that deeply troubles me. Despite only recently joining, I have an alt that I play with a friend of mine when he has a chance to log on. I realize that 1 Tamriel allows for any 2 players to play together in open world, but it just felt right to start a new character alongside him.

The first time around, I didn't use the dungeon finder much because I was primarily questing and leveling that way, but with my friend, I wanted him to experience dungeons in an MMO for the first time (he's new to the genre). What I've found, both with him and without him, is that queing as a low level character is a nightmare.

Why is it a nightmare, you might ask? I don't really mind the 2 hour wait times for dps, or the bugs where it'll randomly port players out. What I DO mind is how the random normal que has all dungeons, including the 2 variants and the DLC dungeons.

One of our first dungeons we ran together was fungal grotto 2. I didn't even realize there was a great distinction between 1 and 2 because of how few dungeons I'd ran on my main at that time, but I found out soon enough. Tons of instant kill or near instant kill boss mechanics, mechanics that require great quantities of dps, and mechanics that require high levels of positioning and coordination. Basically, everything that new players have not yet learned to do or are even capable of doing.

Both of our dps (we were tank /healer) were also lowbies like us. I had like 180 cp, but with random questing gear and at level 32 or so, it wasn't enough to make any real difference. One of the dps even had a sword and shield! Can you fathom how long fungal grotto 2 took us, or how many wipes we had with this group trying to figure out how to get around all of these endgame-esque mechanics? Easily 2 hours, I think it was closer to 3.

My point is this: Why are these dungeons even available in the que for low level players? They're absurdly harder than the other half of the dungeons in the que, so much so that queing as a low level player is literally playing Russian roulette.

Just yesterday, I decided to use this alt to que up for a dungeon and got thrown into banished cells 2. We managed to slog through the first few bosses, but absolutely could not get past the summoner. The ads would just overwhelm us because we didn't have enough dps to get them down in time. Honestly my alt's dps is pretty bad (8-9k at best, usually lower for most fights), but even that seemed much higher than what the other dps was doing. I know because we had one dps leave and tried a pull with just the 3 of us, and the next pull where we got a new dps, the boss' health went down at more-or-less the same rate.

It's clear that the scaling performed for 1 Tamriel didn't really address the mechanics of these "2" dungeons, or the DLC dungeons - the content is "open" for lowbies, but it's so brutally difficult for new players that there's little point in attempting it.

So, I think there are 2 options to address this:

1) Scale down more than just the health / resistances / etc of the bosses in these dungeons. Adjust the actual mechanics so that they scale to the player as well

2) Remove "2" dungeons and DLC dungeons from the random normal que for players below 50 or CP 160, or even both.

Thoughts? Sorry for the long post as well, hope it leads to meaningful discussion. There are a lot of new players coming into the game right now who I'm sure are facing these difficulties.

Mrs_Malaka · May 2017

you can select specific dungeons you would like to queue for.
just uncheck the boxes of the dungeons that you don't want to do ("2" and DLC dungeons in your case)

Crafts_Many_Boxes · May 2017

Mrs_Malaka wrote: »

you can select specific dungeons you would like to queue for.
just uncheck the boxes of the dungeons that you don't want to do ("2" and DLC dungeons in your case)

Except that means you're essentially forfeiting the bonus xp and items. Why even have random que as an option for lowbies if it works so poorly as a feature?

kunquatb16_ESO · May 2017

An option to exclude II version, but downgrade reward would work, as for lowbies, the rewards would be comparatively good.

idk · May 2017

As someone who ran through those dungeons before they were nerfed the first time it's learning the mechanics will change how smooth it goes.

The unfortunate part is all the nerfs that have occurred in quests prevent players from learning to recognize when they need to bash (interrupt).

However, what kills most in dungeons is not watching from obvious signs of damage. The little red markers. Make sure battle queues is on. Practice makes perfect.

Oh, and make sure both of you are using level and role appropriate blue food. At least one stat should be max health. Do not use drink that only provides regen. These health will increase your survival.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · May 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

As someone who ran through those dungeons before they were nerfed the first time it's learning the mechanics will change how smooth it goes.

The unfortunate part is all the nerfs that have occurred in quests prevent players from learning to recognize when they need to bash (interrupt).

However, what kills most in dungeons is not watching from obvious signs of damage. The little red markers. Make sure battle queues is on. Practice makes perfect.

Oh, and make sure both of you are using level and role appropriate blue food. At least one stat should be max health. Do not use drink that only provides regen. These health will increase your survival.

It's a lot more complicated than just bashing or damage cues. After all, most bosses in my experience so far can't even be bashed anyway.

Taking my example above, when you have a boss that's constantly spawning packs of adds that you can't even fully kill half the time before she spawns the next pack, and you're lucky if your aoe is occasionally hitting her at best because the tank isn't able to wrangle everything, meanwhile there are deadly orb aoe spots all over the place and her own aoe attacks, plus the attacks of all the mobs, you begin to wonder if the content you're doing is appropriate for beginners. I'm not saying it's not doable, just extremely out of line with other content in the exact same randomized list.

And sure, everything you're saying helps, but it's like giving a bunch of toddlers pocket knives instead of tooth picks and telling them to go kill wolves in the forest. You're still gonna get mauled, the difference in experience vs difficulty is too great. II versions were originally meant for endgame players before 1 Tamriel, correct?

It's not really a matter of "git gud" because hey, the whole point of doing dungeons at a low level is to start to refine your playstyles, learn mechanics, and get gud to begin with. For a brief period, I was in the 9th best raiding guild NA in Rift, and some of these II bosses have me sweating. I can't imagine what it's like for guys who are truly new to MMOs. That's why I'm saying something has to be done.

idk · May 2017

You said exactly what I said. It comes down to learning the mechanics.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · May 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

You said exactly what I said. It comes down to learning the mechanics.

....somewhat, but it's a matter of degrees. You need to ease new players into this stuff, don't have them do a faceroll dungeon, que again, and get rekt for 3 hours straight because they drew the short straw and got White Gold Tower or _____ II.

And mechanics are fine, but some of these bosses have what are essentially dps checks or healing checks as well. Adds that can overwhelm you, self healing bosses, etc. That's just a matter of gear and proper rotations, things that new players and alts absolutely will not have.

kargen27 · May 2017

Dungeons at one time scaled to the group leaders level. That was a problem because people would make a low level player the leader then when they started the low level player often would just leave group so someone else could join. You also have to take into account there are very experienced players on low level characters that easily go through these same dungeons. Making it even easier would make the dungeons almost worthless in terms of having fun.

Personally I would say enjoy the struggle while you can. Work on mechanics but if it starts getting frustrating take a break and maybe queue for a different dungeon. With four inexperienced players it is a great time to try and figure a few things out. If the tank can't bring everything in you have some options. The tank can agro the boss then walk him to the ads. If the healer or DPS gets agro they can go to the tank dragging the evil doers with them. Some fights you want the tank to keep the boss busy and some you want the tank to ignore the boss and keep the ads busy. If you don't struggle through and learn the mechanics on normal they are really going to rip into you when you step up to vet.

It won't be long before you can easily walk through most content in the game and will be longing for a challenge. So again I say enjoy the struggle while you can.

And there is nothing at all wrong with not being able to finish a dungeon. If it gets to where it isn't fun just agree hey this isn't going to work and go from there.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · May 2017

kargen27 wrote: »

Dungeons at one time scaled to the group leaders level. That was a problem because people would make a low level player the leader then when they started the low level player often would just leave group so someone else could join. You also have to take into account there are very experienced players on low level characters that easily go through these same dungeons. Making it even easier would make the dungeons almost worthless in terms of having fun.

Personally I would say enjoy the struggle while you can. Work on mechanics but if it starts getting frustrating take a break and maybe queue for a different dungeon. With four inexperienced players it is a great time to try and figure a few things out. If the tank can't bring everything in you have some options. The tank can agro the boss then walk him to the ads. If the healer or DPS gets agro they can go to the tank dragging the evil doers with them. Some fights you want the tank to keep the boss busy and some you want the tank to ignore the boss and keep the ads busy. If you don't struggle through and learn the mechanics on normal they are really going to rip into you when you step up to vet.

It won't be long before you can easily walk through most content in the game and will be longing for a challenge. So again I say enjoy the struggle while you can.

And there is nothing at all wrong with not being able to finish a dungeon. If it gets to where it isn't fun just agree hey this isn't going to work and go from there.

I can't help but feel you're misunderstanding my point. I'm relatively new to this game, but I've raided in 2 MMOs prior to coming here. I can adapt to mechanics relatively easily, but most groups, in my experience, cannot. The failure rate on a group of 3-4 new players in a II or DLC dungeon seems to be almost 100%. That goes beyond "enjoying learning the mechanics", that's miserable. That's how you get your new playerbase to quit.

If you want a challenge, that's fine but there should be a separate que for it. Those new players who feel they aren't yet ready for such a challenge but want to do a dungeon or two should also have random que options, because right now they really don't. There's no ramp up either - ____ 1 is usually easy for any group and ____ II is usually brutally difficult for a new group. The fact that there's no in-between and they're all in the same randomized list for the exact same reward is just poor design, plain and simple.

Edit: and I know it's not every II boss, but it's enough of them that it'll often derail the run due to the linear nature of most of the dungeons that makes most bosses un-skippable.

zaria · May 2017

Its multiple fails with the dungeon finder. One of the simpler is that the normal dlc dungeons have an level limit of 10 who is insane. They should be above the current hardest of the normal ones.
An smart system would look not only at level but at achievements and undaunted level, then unlock dungeons over time. disabled for pre made groups.
Repeat this for veteran dungeons,

kargen27 · June 2017

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Dungeons at one time scaled to the group leaders level. That was a problem because people would make a low level player the leader then when they started the low level player often would just leave group so someone else could join. You also have to take into account there are very experienced players on low level characters that easily go through these same dungeons. Making it even easier would make the dungeons almost worthless in terms of having fun.

Personally I would say enjoy the struggle while you can. Work on mechanics but if it starts getting frustrating take a break and maybe queue for a different dungeon. With four inexperienced players it is a great time to try and figure a few things out. If the tank can't bring everything in you have some options. The tank can agro the boss then walk him to the ads. If the healer or DPS gets agro they can go to the tank dragging the evil doers with them. Some fights you want the tank to keep the boss busy and some you want the tank to ignore the boss and keep the ads busy. If you don't struggle through and learn the mechanics on normal they are really going to rip into you when you step up to vet.

It won't be long before you can easily walk through most content in the game and will be longing for a challenge. So again I say enjoy the struggle while you can.

And there is nothing at all wrong with not being able to finish a dungeon. If it gets to where it isn't fun just agree hey this isn't going to work and go from there.

I can't help but feel you're misunderstanding my point. I'm relatively new to this game, but I've raided in 2 MMOs prior to coming here. I can adapt to mechanics relatively easily, but most groups, in my experience, cannot. The failure rate on a group of 3-4 new players in a II or DLC dungeon seems to be almost 100%. That goes beyond "enjoying learning the mechanics", that's miserable. That's how you get your new playerbase to quit.

If you want a challenge, that's fine but there should be a separate que for it. Those new players who feel they aren't yet ready for such a challenge but want to do a dungeon or two should also have random que options, because right now they really don't. There's no ramp up either - ____ 1 is usually easy for any group and ____ II is usually brutally difficult for a new group. The fact that there's no in-between and they're all in the same randomized list for the exact same reward is just poor design, plain and simple.

Edit: and I know it's not every II boss, but it's enough of them that it'll often derail the run due to the linear nature of most of the dungeons that makes most bosses un-skippable.

No I understood your point. The problem is if you create separate queues your wait goes from two hours to ???. And again if it is miserable you leave that dungeon and queue for a different one. At some point and time new players are going to have to learn to deal with the mechanics. I've been in groups that after several fails we waited for someone to search for an answer then we would try that. Sometimes we were able to defeat the boss and sometimes not.

I do wish experienced players would spend more time in random dungeons when they are grouped with new players instead of just rushing through and carrying them. That would help a ton. When some friends and I were learning we sometimes went in with a three strikes and we are out rule. Meaning if we wipe to the same boss three times we find something else to do. Sure there is some tough content for players new to the game and MMOs in general but trust me, it will not take long before you are enjoying that tougher content.

Tiitus · June 2017

there are 3 dungeons i instantly leave as a low lvl char.. ICP (the first boss in that dungeon is a nightmare for healers), WGT (the 3 npc boss fight seem to be impossible for LFG pugs) and CoA ll (first it too damn long and second the whole dungeon is a dps check)... honorable mention: DC ll (the dwemer poisen boss, everyone wants to burn through the poisen phase but not everyone is capable, not to mention this fight is OOM for healers).

incase you've missed it i heal.. some of these dungeons should not be in the low lvl queue.. if i was stepping into the first 3 dungeons i mentioned with fresh eyes id never step into an eso dungeon again.. ppl either intantly leave or the situation gets toxic neither is ggod for new players to exp.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · June 2017

kargen27 wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Dungeons at one time scaled to the group leaders level. That was a problem because people would make a low level player the leader then when they started the low level player often would just leave group so someone else could join. You also have to take into account there are very experienced players on low level characters that easily go through these same dungeons. Making it even easier would make the dungeons almost worthless in terms of having fun.

Personally I would say enjoy the struggle while you can. Work on mechanics but if it starts getting frustrating take a break and maybe queue for a different dungeon. With four inexperienced players it is a great time to try and figure a few things out. If the tank can't bring everything in you have some options. The tank can agro the boss then walk him to the ads. If the healer or DPS gets agro they can go to the tank dragging the evil doers with them. Some fights you want the tank to keep the boss busy and some you want the tank to ignore the boss and keep the ads busy. If you don't struggle through and learn the mechanics on normal they are really going to rip into you when you step up to vet.

It won't be long before you can easily walk through most content in the game and will be longing for a challenge. So again I say enjoy the struggle while you can.

And there is nothing at all wrong with not being able to finish a dungeon. If it gets to where it isn't fun just agree hey this isn't going to work and go from there.

I can't help but feel you're misunderstanding my point. I'm relatively new to this game, but I've raided in 2 MMOs prior to coming here. I can adapt to mechanics relatively easily, but most groups, in my experience, cannot. The failure rate on a group of 3-4 new players in a II or DLC dungeon seems to be almost 100%. That goes beyond "enjoying learning the mechanics", that's miserable. That's how you get your new playerbase to quit.

If you want a challenge, that's fine but there should be a separate que for it. Those new players who feel they aren't yet ready for such a challenge but want to do a dungeon or two should also have random que options, because right now they really don't. There's no ramp up either - ____ 1 is usually easy for any group and ____ II is usually brutally difficult for a new group. The fact that there's no in-between and they're all in the same randomized list for the exact same reward is just poor design, plain and simple.

Edit: and I know it's not every II boss, but it's enough of them that it'll often derail the run due to the linear nature of most of the dungeons that makes most bosses un-skippable.

No I understood your point. The problem is if you create separate queues your wait goes from two hours to ???. And again if it is miserable you leave that dungeon and queue for a different one. At some point and time new players are going to have to learn to deal with the mechanics. I've been in groups that after several fails we waited for someone to search for an answer then we would try that. Sometimes we were able to defeat the boss and sometimes not.

I do wish experienced players would spend more time in random dungeons when they are grouped with new players instead of just rushing through and carrying them. That would help a ton. When some friends and I were learning we sometimes went in with a three strikes and we are out rule. Meaning if we wipe to the same boss three times we find something else to do. Sure there is some tough content for players new to the game and MMOs in general but trust me, it will not take long before you are enjoying that tougher content.

I just think you're being too idealistic. As Tiitus points out, different players have different personalities. Many new players who are met with extreme challenges (II dungeons and DLC dungeons) upon their first few attempts at dungeons will react poorly and either A) not attempt dungeons again for a long, long time or B ) quit the game altogether. My friend who I'm leveling that alt with? He is hesitant to even ENTER another dungeon after our experience with Fungal Grotto II. This is the normal response of a new player, for better or for worse.

In a perfect world where everyone has infinite amounts of time to game and infinite amounts of patience and understanding, you'd be right. We'd all take the challenges as they come, and learn and grow from them. We'd wipe until we either understood the fights well enough to succeed, or conclude it was impossible and leave and be 100% okay with that. The reality is that many of us jobs, and lives, and only have a set amount of time to do these things. Personally, when I que up for a random normal dungeon, I'd like to know that I'm probably going to be able to at least complete it.

My time is valuable, and I don' t think it's unreasonable to assume that lowbie, pre-endgame dungeon ques will have a high completion rate. Every other MMO operates that way, and has a logical ramp-up to endgame. If level 25 players in WoW could get expert WotLK or Cata dungeons (with modified hit so they technically "could" finish it) by queing random normal, there'd be riots in that game.

And I'm pretty sure the ques are just broken in other ways right now. I was on yesterday and my dps ques were popping every 15-20 mins. Breaking up the dungeon lists would increase wait times in the que, but completion rates would skyrocket and everyone would be thankful / happier in the long run.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2017

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So, I think there are 2 options to address this:

1) Scale down more than just the health / resistances / etc of the bosses in these dungeons. Adjust the actual mechanics so that they scale to the player as well

2) Remove "2" dungeons and DLC dungeons from the random normal que for players below 50 or CP 160, or even both.

Direfrost, Arx Coriunium, Selene's Web, Blackheart Haven...

You mistakenly think that there are not version I dungeons that can't kick the crap out of you as newish player.

Nothing needs to be scaled down - normal mode has already handed that to done that for you. You're already scaled to CP160 from the moment you first log in.

The randoms are intended to promote playing the dungeons, but are also intended to be a bonus for seasoned dungeoneers.

Just as you would avoid the version II dungeons and the DLC dungeons until you are comfortable and capable, perhaps the random queue should be the same, since any of those are a possibility?

You still get really good experience (XP) from running dungeons, and you get really good experience from running the dungeons.

Queue for the Version I dungeons until you're better at overcoming them - they're there to teach you many of the mechanics of the game and group gameplay. Once you're comfortable with that, proceed to the version II's, then the DLC's.

Somewhere in the middle you can start being confident enough in your group and your character to queue up for randoms.

They're intended to be an accomplishment, though much less than what they once were. Allow them to be just that, vice asking for them to be nerfed even further than they already have been.

There are 100's of ways to get XP's as a low level character, having the dungeon dumbed down doesn't need to be one of them.

And, regarding option 2, it's not the level of your character(s) that is the issue. It's learning the mechanics and group play. There are (scaled) lower level characters that can finish these and want the challenge. Removing it as even a possibility prevents that.

That's what the "Specific Dungeon" queue is for...

TL;DR These are to help you get better. Simply making them easier does not accomplish that.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

If you want a challenge, that's fine but there should be a separate que for it. Those new players who feel they aren't yet ready for such a challenge but want to do a dungeon or two should also have random que options, because right now they really don't.

You do know you can select more than one dungeon at a time (multiple selections) under the "Specific" queue page, right?

This will let you have your separate "only these please?" queue you're requesting. You simply won't get the bonus from the daily.

Skjoldur · June 2017

A while back I proposed 3 separate random queues with 3 separate daily quest rewards: Normal I & II, Normal DLC and Veteran.

While Normal II is a bit harder than Normal I, I think even new players can manage. The mechanics in the DLC ones are a bit to complicated for new players, I think.

idk · June 2017

Skjoldur wrote: »

A while back I proposed 3 separate random queues with 3 separate daily quest rewards: Normal I & II, Normal DLC and Veteran.

While Normal II is a bit harder than Normal I, I think even new players can manage. The mechanics in the DLC ones are a bit to complicated for new players, I think.

Players already have a choice to do the pledges on normal or vet and the DLC are a separate pledge.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · June 2017

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So, I think there are 2 options to address this:

1) Scale down more than just the health / resistances / etc of the bosses in these dungeons. Adjust the actual mechanics so that they scale to the player as well

2) Remove "2" dungeons and DLC dungeons from the random normal que for players below 50 or CP 160, or even both.

Direfrost, Arx Coriunium, Selene's Web, Blackheart Haven...

You mistakenly think that there are not version I dungeons that can't kick the crap out of you as newish player.

Nothing needs to be scaled down - normal mode has already handed that to done that for you. You're already scaled to CP160 from the moment you first log in.

The randoms are intended to promote playing the dungeons, but are also intended to be a bonus for seasoned dungeoneers.

Just as you would avoid the version II dungeons and the DLC dungeons until you are comfortable and capable, perhaps the random queue should be the same, since any of those are a possibility?

You still get really good experience (XP) from running dungeons, and you get really good experience from running the dungeons.

Queue for the Version I dungeons until you're better at overcoming them - they're there to teach you many of the mechanics of the game and group gameplay. Once you're comfortable with that, proceed to the version II's, then the DLC's.

Somewhere in the middle you can start being confident enough in your group and your character to queue up for randoms.

They're intended to be an accomplishment, though much less than what they once were. Allow them to be just that, vice asking for them to be nerfed even further than they already have been.

There are 100's of ways to get XP's as a low level character, having the dungeon dumbed down doesn't need to be one of them.

And, regarding option 2, it's not the level of your character(s) that is the issue. It's learning the mechanics and group play. There are (scaled) lower level characters that can finish these and want the challenge. Removing it as even a possibility prevents that.

That's what the "Specific Dungeon" queue is for...

TL;DR These are to help you get better. Simply making them easier does not accomplish that.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

If you want a challenge, that's fine but there should be a separate que for it. Those new players who feel they aren't yet ready for such a challenge but want to do a dungeon or two should also have random que options, because right now they really don't.

You do know you can select more than one dungeon at a time (multiple selections) under the "Specific" queue page, right?

This will let you have your separate "only these please?" queue you're requesting. You simply won't get the bonus from the daily.

But then why even have a random que if only a select few are able to get anything out of it? You're part of the camp that's just suggesting we work around something that was poorly designed to begin with. If the intent truly WAS to give new players the chance to be thrust into extremely challenging content that is often uncompletable for groups, then they need to re-think their intent.

And the XP from doing a dungeon without the bonus is actually pretty bad for any level. At that point, questing is usually faster. But sometimes, you just wanna kill things in a dungeon, ya know? It'd be great if new players had that option without having to worry about extreme difficulty (like they do in literally every other MMO....). Again, a separate random que for II dungeons and DLC would address this. IIs and DLC are basically experts / veterans compared to the 1s anyway, it just makes sense.

And no, it's not always just mechanics either. In the example I gave in my original post, I note that it wasn't even the AOE that was ultimately stopping us from beating the boss, it was how she would summon adds faster than we could kill them, and they were overwhelming us. It was mostly a dps issue, that boss essentially has a dps check that new players will struggle to deal with, purely because of gear and rotations - things that new players should not have to be thinking about yet.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2017

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So, I think there are 2 options to address this:

1) Scale down more than just the health / resistances / etc of the bosses in these dungeons. Adjust the actual mechanics so that they scale to the player as well

2) Remove "2" dungeons and DLC dungeons from the random normal que for players below 50 or CP 160, or even both.

Direfrost, Arx Coriunium, Selene's Web, Blackheart Haven...

You mistakenly think that there are not version I dungeons that can't kick the crap out of you as newish player.

Nothing needs to be scaled down - normal mode has already handed that to done that for you. You're already scaled to CP160 from the moment you first log in.

The randoms are intended to promote playing the dungeons, but are also intended to be a bonus for seasoned dungeoneers.

Just as you would avoid the version II dungeons and the DLC dungeons until you are comfortable and capable, perhaps the random queue should be the same, since any of those are a possibility?

You still get really good experience (XP) from running dungeons, and you get really good experience from running the dungeons.

Queue for the Version I dungeons until you're better at overcoming them - they're there to teach you many of the mechanics of the game and group gameplay. Once you're comfortable with that, proceed to the version II's, then the DLC's.

Somewhere in the middle you can start being confident enough in your group and your character to queue up for randoms.

They're intended to be an accomplishment, though much less than what they once were. Allow them to be just that, vice asking for them to be nerfed even further than they already have been.

There are 100's of ways to get XP's as a low level character, having the dungeon dumbed down doesn't need to be one of them.

And, regarding option 2, it's not the level of your character(s) that is the issue. It's learning the mechanics and group play. There are (scaled) lower level characters that can finish these and want the challenge. Removing it as even a possibility prevents that.

That's what the "Specific Dungeon" queue is for...

TL;DR These are to help you get better. Simply making them easier does not accomplish that.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

If you want a challenge, that's fine but there should be a separate que for it. Those new players who feel they aren't yet ready for such a challenge but want to do a dungeon or two should also have random que options, because right now they really don't.

You do know you can select more than one dungeon at a time (multiple selections) under the "Specific" queue page, right?

This will let you have your separate "only these please?" queue you're requesting. You simply won't get the bonus from the daily.

But then why even have a random que if only a select few are able to get anything out of it? You're part of the camp that's just suggesting we work around something that was poorly designed to begin with. If the intent truly WAS to give new players the chance to be thrust into extremely challenging content that is often uncompletable for groups, then they need to re-think their intent.

And the XP from doing a dungeon without the bonus is actually pretty bad for any level. At that point, questing is usually faster. But sometimes, you just wanna kill things in a dungeon, ya know? It'd be great if new players had that option without having to worry about extreme difficulty (like they do in literally every other MMO....). Again, a separate random que for II dungeons and DLC would address this. IIs and DLC are basically experts / veterans compared to the 1s anyway, it just makes sense.

And no, it's not always just mechanics either. In the example I gave in my original post, I note that it wasn't even the AOE that was ultimately stopping us from beating the boss, it was how she would summon adds faster than we could kill them, and they were overwhelming us. It was mostly a dps issue, that boss essentially has a dps check that new players will struggle to deal with, purely because of gear and rotations - things that new players should not have to be thinking about yet.

Prior to scaling (in its current form), zones where scaled (each being basically 10 levels worth) and the 4 man within much the same. You didn't step into a level 40 dungeon with a level 20 character (unless you were very, very proficient).

It allowed a natural progression - the dungeons got harder, the mechanics got harder, your character(s) and group improved. Having the random as an option at all is a gift compared to what it once was. Group finder was nonexistant for the longest time.

Why do you think further reducing the difficulty of the dungeons will improve you or your groups gameplay? How does that honestly benefit you?

You level, you learn, you get better. You speak as if it's going to forever be an impossibility, and it isn't.

It's not just a select few that are able to get anything out of it. Many of us did Tier 1 (level 10-12) and Tier 2 dungeons at or near the associated levels. Some of us hit (then) max level almost exclusively doing 4 man content.

You have access to much more than many of us did leveling up. Not all of it is intended to be, nor should be, a walk in the park at any given level, however.

If you are simply "allowed" a completion in order to pass a specific content or to receive an XP bonus, there is no real benefit for you or your character.

Level 50 takes fifty hours...if you linger. If you don't find a way now and have complaint about the Version II's of the dungeons, you're in for a painful step when you first check the box that says "Vet."

Don't request nerf or accommodation for what you can't do (right now). Focus on what you can. You will get better, it will get easier.

Run the dungeons because you enjoy them. Run the dungeons to learn the mechanics, the group play, new strategies that will be different with each and every group makeup you ever have. That is the intention of the dungeons. That is the intention of the group finder, random or otherwise.

The intent is to get you in the door. The intent is not to guarantee a completion. Gating it behind someone else's perceived difficulty level takes away from your possibilities. It doesn't add to them.

The only things that should be excluded from RGF are DLC's you do not own. The fact that they even included another option (other than random) to select multiples of your choosing is a gift in itself.

Make use of it, don't, or walk in the dungeon front door the way everyone else once had to. Choice is yours.

This has the same effect as what you're asking for - it filters out certain content. There is even guidance based on level to give you an indication of what you might expect...

Crafts_Many_Boxes · June 2017

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So, I think there are 2 options to address this:

1) Scale down more than just the health / resistances / etc of the bosses in these dungeons. Adjust the actual mechanics so that they scale to the player as well

2) Remove "2" dungeons and DLC dungeons from the random normal que for players below 50 or CP 160, or even both.

Direfrost, Arx Coriunium, Selene's Web, Blackheart Haven...

You mistakenly think that there are not version I dungeons that can't kick the crap out of you as newish player.

Nothing needs to be scaled down - normal mode has already handed that to done that for you. You're already scaled to CP160 from the moment you first log in.

The randoms are intended to promote playing the dungeons, but are also intended to be a bonus for seasoned dungeoneers.

Just as you would avoid the version II dungeons and the DLC dungeons until you are comfortable and capable, perhaps the random queue should be the same, since any of those are a possibility?

You still get really good experience (XP) from running dungeons, and you get really good experience from running the dungeons.

Queue for the Version I dungeons until you're better at overcoming them - they're there to teach you many of the mechanics of the game and group gameplay. Once you're comfortable with that, proceed to the version II's, then the DLC's.

Somewhere in the middle you can start being confident enough in your group and your character to queue up for randoms.

They're intended to be an accomplishment, though much less than what they once were. Allow them to be just that, vice asking for them to be nerfed even further than they already have been.

There are 100's of ways to get XP's as a low level character, having the dungeon dumbed down doesn't need to be one of them.

And, regarding option 2, it's not the level of your character(s) that is the issue. It's learning the mechanics and group play. There are (scaled) lower level characters that can finish these and want the challenge. Removing it as even a possibility prevents that.

That's what the "Specific Dungeon" queue is for...

TL;DR These are to help you get better. Simply making them easier does not accomplish that.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

If you want a challenge, that's fine but there should be a separate que for it. Those new players who feel they aren't yet ready for such a challenge but want to do a dungeon or two should also have random que options, because right now they really don't.

You do know you can select more than one dungeon at a time (multiple selections) under the "Specific" queue page, right?

This will let you have your separate "only these please?" queue you're requesting. You simply won't get the bonus from the daily.

But then why even have a random que if only a select few are able to get anything out of it? You're part of the camp that's just suggesting we work around something that was poorly designed to begin with. If the intent truly WAS to give new players the chance to be thrust into extremely challenging content that is often uncompletable for groups, then they need to re-think their intent.

And the XP from doing a dungeon without the bonus is actually pretty bad for any level. At that point, questing is usually faster. But sometimes, you just wanna kill things in a dungeon, ya know? It'd be great if new players had that option without having to worry about extreme difficulty (like they do in literally every other MMO....). Again, a separate random que for II dungeons and DLC would address this. IIs and DLC are basically experts / veterans compared to the 1s anyway, it just makes sense.

And no, it's not always just mechanics either. In the example I gave in my original post, I note that it wasn't even the AOE that was ultimately stopping us from beating the boss, it was how she would summon adds faster than we could kill them, and they were overwhelming us. It was mostly a dps issue, that boss essentially has a dps check that new players will struggle to deal with, purely because of gear and rotations - things that new players should not have to be thinking about yet.

Prior to scaling (in its current form), zones where scaled (each being basically 10 levels worth) and the 4 man within much the same. You didn't step into a level 40 dungeon with a level 20 character (unless you were very, very proficient).

It allowed a natural progression - the dungeons got harder, the mechanics got harder, your character(s) and group improved. Having the random as an option at all is a gift compared to what it once was. Group finder was nonexistant for the longest time.

Why do you think further reducing the difficulty of the dungeons will improve you or your groups gameplay? How does that honestly benefit you?

You level, you learn, you get better. You speak as if it's going to forever be an impossibility, and it isn't.

It's not just a select few that are able to get anything out of it. Many of us did Tier 1 (level 10-12) and Tier 2 dungeons at or near the associated levels. Some of us hit (then) max level almost exclusively doing 4 man content.

You have access to much more than many of us did leveling up. Not all of it is intended to be, nor should be, a walk in the park at any given level, however.

If you are simply "allowed" a completion in order to pass a specific content or to receive an XP bonus, there is no real benefit for you or your character.

Level 50 takes fifty hours...if you linger. If you don't find a way now and have complaint about the Version II's of the dungeons, you're in for a painful step when you first check the box that says "Vet."

Don't request nerf or accommodation for what you can't do (right now). Focus on what you can. You will get better, it will get easier.

Run the dungeons because you enjoy them. Run the dungeons to learn the mechanics, the group play, new strategies that will be different with each and every group makeup you ever have. That is the intention of the dungeons. That is the intention of the group finder, random or otherwise.

The intent is to get you in the door. The intent is not to guarantee a completion. Gating it behind someone else's perceived difficulty level takes away from your possibilities. It doesn't add to them.

The only things that should be excluded from RGF are DLC's you do not own. The fact that they even included another option (other than random) to select multiples of your choosing is a gift in itself.

Make use of it, don't, or walk in the dungeon front door the way everyone else once had to. Choice is yours.

If this is honestly Zenimax's stance on all of this, then their PvE player retention must be awful. You're putting difficulty on a pedestal like it's what everyone aspires to reach. News flash - some players just want to be able to faceroll mobs and bosses, especially new players. If they're failing every other random dungeon because they keep getting IIs and DLCs, they may not stick around long. Not everyone is into Dark Souls, especially considering a lot of the new players are probably Bethesda game veterans.

Yes, I'm saying there are some players who still want to enjoy themselves without pushing themselves to get better. In fact, I'd say a majority are like that (gasp!). There needs to be a compromise in scaling for these players or they need to be forcibly excluded from ques, both to retain them and to allow those of us who get stuck in dungeons with them to succeed.

Simple mechanics are fine, but nothing that can easily cause wipes - to put new players in this situation is bad design. It is how you drive them away. You need to understand the casual mentality. Again, look at WoW - you don't see new players doing expert dungeons, because even if they scaled the health down, the mechanics and dps checks would still tear them apart.

And sure, you don't HAVE to do dungeons while leveling, but it'd be nice if one of the main features of PvE were actually useful for everyone. Right now, it's just Russian roulette if you're Below 50 - heck, even at 50 they're tough with low CP.

Let me be clear on this last point: this isn't really about me. Yes, it would be nice for both my alt and main if I could join the random normal que without worrying about whether or not it'll be a cakewalk or uncompletable, but I can deal with it. I'm thinking more about players like my friend who are new to MMOs and will just walk away when put in situations like that. Otherwise good players with great potential, spurned because the game decided to crank things up to eleven before they even hit max level.

Dungeon difficulty progression made much more sense before 1 Tamriel, when everything had level brackets? I'm sure it did, and that's great, but that's clearly not the case anymore. Zenimax needs to take responsibility for the changes they brought about and overhaul the random dungeon finder.

NewBlacksmurf · June 2017

Why

Because it's One Tamriel and not the original ESO where you could out level and miss dungeons.
As far as some being hard or impossible....that depends on how people play and how far along they are.

It's not a system that suggests everyone can win, it's a system that everyone has access. That's it ACCESS only with equal opportunity to fail.
I believe that's important to retain.

We as players have to be willing to hit walls that introduce ideas of change and adjust on the fly

Merlin13KAGL · June 2017

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

If this is honestly Zenimax's stance on all of this, then their PvE player retention must be awful. You're putting difficulty on a pedestal like it's what everyone aspires to reach. News flash - some players just want to be able to faceroll mobs and bosses, especially new players. If they're failing every other random dungeon because they keep getting IIs and DLCs, they may not stick around long. Not everyone is into Dark Souls, especially considering a lot of the new players are probably Bethesda game veterans.

Yes, I'm saying there are some players who still want to enjoy themselves without pushing themselves to get better. In fact, I'd say a majority are like that (gasp!). There needs to be a compromise in scaling for these players or they need to be forcibly excluded from ques, both to retain them and to allow those of us who get stuck in dungeons with them to succeed.

Retention is fine. I'm not putting difficulty on a pedestal at all. Completion of those dungeons is quite attainable and does not require some kind of l33t build or mentality. You're making it sound as if the majority wants to be able to autopilot through the game.

For the players that "just want to be able to faceroll mobs and bosses, especially new players," that's what overland is for, you know, 90% of the game? With exception of the occasional world boss, they can burn mobs to their hearts' content.

Delves, Public dungeons, Dolmens, almost every mob around every corner is for just exactly that.

The four man is intended to be a step beyond that. It's a different playstyle in every sense, and that's what it needs to stay. They provide a modicum of challenge, which plenty more players are interested in.

That compromise you keep demanding, it's in the picture I provided. Choose the one's you can do. Don't choose the ones you cannot.

And for the record, you're not 'stuck' with anyone - you can preform your group of four and queue for a random or any of the specific dungeons provided.

If you think limiting choices or grouping up with random max level characters, either one, will somehow guarantee your success in group finder, you're in for a... Very. Long. Haul.

If you're failing because you're getting the 'wrong randoms,' then stop using randoms. Goes for group members and dungeon choices.

What you ask for will lead you to an impossible outcome, those that do enjoy the bit of challenge (which I suspect are higher in numbers than people requesting more faceroll) won't bother queuing up at all. Come "Vet," you'll be in the very same circumstance all over again.

If you need help with something, ask for it. Don't come here expecting entitlement because you refuse to use the tools available to you.

I've grouped up with plenty of newer characters, given advice, and gotten them through content they never thought would be possible. They asked. They listened. In the end, they were happy to finally succeed without it being handed to them on silver platter.

The majority of this game is so new-player friendly it's almost unfathomable. The little bit that isn't does not need to be made so. There's a huge vast area between "Dark Souls" difficulty and faceroll difficult. To be perfectly blunt, from where I'm gathering you stand in that spectrum, 4 man content is probably not for you.

zaria · June 2017

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So, I think there are 2 options to address this:

1) Scale down more than just the health / resistances / etc of the bosses in these dungeons. Adjust the actual mechanics so that they scale to the player as well

2) Remove "2" dungeons and DLC dungeons from the random normal que for players below 50 or CP 160, or even both.

Direfrost, Arx Coriunium, Selene's Web, Blackheart Haven...

You mistakenly think that there are not version I dungeons that can't kick the crap out of you as newish player.

Nothing needs to be scaled down - normal mode has already handed that to done that for you. You're already scaled to CP160 from the moment you first log in.

The randoms are intended to promote playing the dungeons, but are also intended to be a bonus for seasoned dungeoneers.

Just as you would avoid the version II dungeons and the DLC dungeons until you are comfortable and capable, perhaps the random queue should be the same, since any of those are a possibility?

You still get really good experience (XP) from running dungeons, and you get really good experience from running the dungeons.

Queue for the Version I dungeons until you're better at overcoming them - they're there to teach you many of the mechanics of the game and group gameplay. Once you're comfortable with that, proceed to the version II's, then the DLC's.

Somewhere in the middle you can start being confident enough in your group and your character to queue up for randoms.

They're intended to be an accomplishment, though much less than what they once were. Allow them to be just that, vice asking for them to be nerfed even further than they already have been.

There are 100's of ways to get XP's as a low level character, having the dungeon dumbed down doesn't need to be one of them.

And, regarding option 2, it's not the level of your character(s) that is the issue. It's learning the mechanics and group play. There are (scaled) lower level characters that can finish these and want the challenge. Removing it as even a possibility prevents that.

That's what the "Specific Dungeon" queue is for...

TL;DR These are to help you get better. Simply making them easier does not accomplish that.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

If you want a challenge, that's fine but there should be a separate que for it. Those new players who feel they aren't yet ready for such a challenge but want to do a dungeon or two should also have random que options, because right now they really don't.

You do know you can select more than one dungeon at a time (multiple selections) under the "Specific" queue page, right?

This will let you have your separate "only these please?" queue you're requesting. You simply won't get the bonus from the daily.

But then why even have a random que if only a select few are able to get anything out of it? You're part of the camp that's just suggesting we work around something that was poorly designed to begin with. If the intent truly WAS to give new players the chance to be thrust into extremely challenging content that is often uncompletable for groups, then they need to re-think their intent.

And the XP from doing a dungeon without the bonus is actually pretty bad for any level. At that point, questing is usually faster. But sometimes, you just wanna kill things in a dungeon, ya know? It'd be great if new players had that option without having to worry about extreme difficulty (like they do in literally every other MMO....). Again, a separate random que for II dungeons and DLC would address this. IIs and DLC are basically experts / veterans compared to the 1s anyway, it just makes sense.

And no, it's not always just mechanics either. In the example I gave in my original post, I note that it wasn't even the AOE that was ultimately stopping us from beating the boss, it was how she would summon adds faster than we could kill them, and they were overwhelming us. It was mostly a dps issue, that boss essentially has a dps check that new players will struggle to deal with, purely because of gear and rotations - things that new players should not have to be thinking about yet.

Prior to scaling (in its current form), zones where scaled (each being basically 10 levels worth) and the 4 man within much the same. You didn't step into a level 40 dungeon with a level 20 character (unless you were very, very proficient).

It allowed a natural progression - the dungeons got harder, the mechanics got harder, your character(s) and group improved. Having the random as an option at all is a gift compared to what it once was. Group finder was nonexistant for the longest time.

Why do you think further reducing the difficulty of the dungeons will improve you or your groups gameplay? How does that honestly benefit you?

You level, you learn, you get better. You speak as if it's going to forever be an impossibility, and it isn't.

It's not just a select few that are able to get anything out of it. Many of us did Tier 1 (level 10-12) and Tier 2 dungeons at or near the associated levels. Some of us hit (then) max level almost exclusively doing 4 man content.

You have access to much more than many of us did leveling up. Not all of it is intended to be, nor should be, a walk in the park at any given level, however.

If you are simply "allowed" a completion in order to pass a specific content or to receive an XP bonus, there is no real benefit for you or your character.

Level 50 takes fifty hours...if you linger. If you don't find a way now and have complaint about the Version II's of the dungeons, you're in for a painful step when you first check the box that says "Vet."

Don't request nerf or accommodation for what you can't do (right now). Focus on what you can. You will get better, it will get easier.

Run the dungeons because you enjoy them. Run the dungeons to learn the mechanics, the group play, new strategies that will be different with each and every group makeup you ever have. That is the intention of the dungeons. That is the intention of the group finder, random or otherwise.

The intent is to get you in the door. The intent is not to guarantee a completion. Gating it behind someone else's perceived difficulty level takes away from your possibilities. It doesn't add to them.

The only things that should be excluded from RGF are DLC's you do not own. The fact that they even included another option (other than random) to select multiples of your choosing is a gift in itself.

Make use of it, don't, or walk in the dungeon front door the way everyone else once had to. Choice is yours.

If this is honestly Zenimax's stance on all of this, then their PvE player retention must be awful. You're putting difficulty on a pedestal like it's what everyone aspires to reach. News flash - some players just want to be able to faceroll mobs and bosses, especially new players. If they're failing every other random dungeon because they keep getting IIs and DLCs, they may not stick around long. Not everyone is into Dark Souls, especially considering a lot of the new players are probably Bethesda game veterans.

Yes, I'm saying there are some players who still want to enjoy themselves without pushing themselves to get better. In fact, I'd say a majority are like that (gasp!). There needs to be a compromise in scaling for these players or they need to be forcibly excluded from ques, both to retain them and to allow those of us who get stuck in dungeons with them to succeed.

Simple mechanics are fine, but nothing that can easily cause wipes - to put new players in this situation is bad design. It is how you drive them away. You need to understand the casual mentality. Again, look at WoW - you don't see new players doing expert dungeons, because even if they scaled the health down, the mechanics and dps checks would still tear them apart.

And sure, you don't HAVE to do dungeons while leveling, but it'd be nice if one of the main features of PvE were actually useful for everyone. Right now, it's just Russian roulette if you're Below 50 - heck, even at 50 they're tough with low CP.

Let me be clear on this last point: this isn't really about me. Yes, it would be nice for both my alt and main if I could join the random normal que without worrying about whether or not it'll be a cakewalk or uncompletable, but I can deal with it. I'm thinking more about players like my friend who are new to MMOs and will just walk away when put in situations like that. Otherwise good players with great potential, spurned because the game decided to crank things up to eleven before they even hit max level.

Dungeon difficulty progression made much more sense before 1 Tamriel, when everything had level brackets? I'm sure it did, and that's great, but that's clearly not the case anymore. Zenimax needs to take responsibility for the changes they brought about and overhaul the random dungeon finder.

No the problem is not the dungeons, they offer an nice progression from very easy like banish cell 1 to the very hard vIcP.
Do them in order as you are comfortable with the easier ones. Some veteran I pug, other I only do with guild and some I say no to invite for. Yes it also depend on the team, it can be anything from veteran raiders to light attack brigade.
The problem is the finder, random dungeon, tend to put low level players in the dlc ones as they have no level requirement.
Has no idea why they don't have an level 40+ requirement.
The perfect finder would also look at your undaunted level and achievements then slotting you. Yes it might give a bit longer queue time but far higher success rate.

kargen27 · June 2017

OP your solution simply is not viable. Wait times for DPS are bad enough already. Dividing the pool to choose from even farther would create much longer queue times.

Even if that were not the case you still have the problem of experienced players starting new characters being shackled to doing just the easy dungeons using the random feature though they are quite capable of doing the harder content.

Just be happy you didn't have to face Doshia in the early going.

And I know this is redundant but spending just a little time learning the mechanics makes all those dungeons so much easier to do.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2017

One other less obvious benefit behind not being able to just blow through any content is a skill that only comes with experience.

Sometimes you need to learn when to "call it." because, for whatever reason, the end result's not going to happen.

If you don't run into the occasional brick wall and learn to what to look for (and why it won't work - such as your S&B DPS example), you won't know when no amount of time spent will yield the desired result.

Most experienced players probably have a pretty good idea if it's gonna happen or not after the first big pull.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · June 2017

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

One other less obvious benefit behind not being able to just blow through any content is a skill that only comes with experience.

Sometimes you need to learn when to "call it." because, for whatever reason, the end result's not going to happen.

If you don't run into the occasional brick wall and learn to what to look for (and why it won't work - such as your S&B DPS example), you won't know when no amount of time spent will yield the desired result.

Most experienced players probably have a pretty good idea if it's gonna happen or not after the first big pull.

"You need to learn when to give up" is a terrible mentality to impart to new players. That's a morale killer. Save the brick walls for 50, or even CP 160. No need to front-load the pain like that.

What you're saying is more good life advice than how to actually make a successful game. Games are meant to be escapist in nature, the higher difficulty stuff should come in the middle / at the end and be in its own separate category. And again, some of us don't have 2 hours to spend in a dungeon when we que up for a random normal, and don't always have gulidies online to run with. If your answer to that is just "oh well", then I pray you never go into game design.

To bottom line all of this, prior to 1 Tamriel all dungeon difficulty was apparently based around level, with the higher difficulty dungeons only accessible by higher level players. 1 Tamriel eliminated level barriers and scaled things like health and resistances, but it did not address the difficulty ramp up of things like mechanics and dps checks between the 1 dungeons and the IIs / DLCs. This is a huge design oversight, and low level players doing these dungeons is almost certainly not the original intent of the developers.

Edit: And putting 1s and IIs / DLC into separate ques wouldn't ACTUALLY make the process take longer, only the que times themselves. Right now, the failure rate is so high that the overall time to complete a dungeon from que to last boss would actually improve on the whole. And oh right, completion rates themselves would skyrocket, so little to no more wasted time either. Giving players content appropriate to their skill and gear level, what a novel idea!

Cnedra · June 2017

Personally I don't think new players are meant to be in any of the "2"s even on normal until they get more experience. Toggle option to remove them from que? Once they get more experience, complete all the 1's on normal, then start trying normal 2s. Then once they finished all normals, they can attempt vet 1s. That being said I also still consider it best to find groups from guild than dungeon finder, best would be a training pve guild that you can pull experienced players to help out if things go bad.

kargen27 · June 2017

"Games are meant to be escapist in nature, the higher difficulty stuff should come in the middle / at the end and be in its own separate category. And again, some of us don't have 2 hours to spend in a dungeon when we que up for a random normal, and don't always have gulidies online to run with. If your answer to that is just "oh well", then I pray you never go into game design."

That is how the game used to be (tiered levels). Problem being players were advancing levels beyond the content they were playing. It got stagnant really quick. So a change was made so players could no matter their level go pretty much anywhere they wanted.

Until a player is ready to run all the dungeons it might be prudent for them to not queue for a random dungeon. Do a few of the easier dungeons then try the tougher ones. Sure you miss out on some experience points but those will come quick enough.

And I still stand by my point that at some point and time you are going to have to deal with mechanics. Being max level and unaware of mechanics can lead to just as quick a disaster in a group as being low level and not familiar with mechanics.

Kneighbors · June 2017

Not all lvl 10 players are the same. Some running with 630cp behind lvl 10. I myself easily soloed last boss on nICP with lvl 10 tank only because I knew that boss very well and had 560cp behind. So if you ask me - open all dungeons for any level.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · June 2017

kargen27 wrote: »

"Games are meant to be escapist in nature, the higher difficulty stuff should come in the middle / at the end and be in its own separate category. And again, some of us don't have 2 hours to spend in a dungeon when we que up for a random normal, and don't always have gulidies online to run with. If your answer to that is just "oh well", then I pray you never go into game design."

That is how the game used to be (tiered levels). Problem being players were advancing levels beyond the content they were playing. It got stagnant really quick. So a change was made so players could no matter their level go pretty much anywhere they wanted.

Until a player is ready to run all the dungeons it might be prudent for them to not queue for a random dungeon. Do a few of the easier dungeons then try the tougher ones. Sure you miss out on some experience points but those will come quick enough.

And I still stand by my point that at some point and time you are going to have to deal with mechanics. Being max level and unaware of mechanics can lead to just as quick a disaster in a group as being low level and not familiar with mechanics.

So you're agreeing that the random normal que is broken, and go on to suggest that new players just avoid it? It all just seems like workarounds instead of addressing the actual problem, which is that the que is not working as intended.

I'm of the opinion that if a feature in the game is available to a player, it should work for them. A true level 25 player being dumped into a II dungeon or a DLC dungeon from a solo que isn't my definition of "working".

And I wholeheartedly agree that, at some point, you will have to address mechanics and dps checks and all that good stuff to progress. However, that point happens much too early and too arbitrarily with this dungeon que the way it is now.

And @Kneighbors I understand that can also be the case, which is why there would be alternate random ques for each tier of dungeons. You would be able to check 1, 2, or all 3 if you wished. It's the simplest solution to this problem.

Kneighbors · June 2017

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

"Games are meant to be escapist in nature, the higher difficulty stuff should come in the middle / at the end and be in its own separate category. And again, some of us don't have 2 hours to spend in a dungeon when we que up for a random normal, and don't always have gulidies online to run with. If your answer to that is just "oh well", then I pray you never go into game design."

That is how the game used to be (tiered levels). Problem being players were advancing levels beyond the content they were playing. It got stagnant really quick. So a change was made so players could no matter their level go pretty much anywhere they wanted.

Until a player is ready to run all the dungeons it might be prudent for them to not queue for a random dungeon. Do a few of the easier dungeons then try the tougher ones. Sure you miss out on some experience points but those will come quick enough.

And I still stand by my point that at some point and time you are going to have to deal with mechanics. Being max level and unaware of mechanics can lead to just as quick a disaster in a group as being low level and not familiar with mechanics.

So you're agreeing that the random normal que is broken, and go on to suggest that new players just avoid it? It all just seems like workarounds instead of addressing the actual problem, which is that the que is not working as intended.

I'm of the opinion that if a feature in the game is available to a player, it should work for them. A true level 25 player being dumped into a II dungeon or a DLC dungeon from a solo que isn't my definition of "working".

And I wholeheartedly agree that, at some point, you will have to address mechanics and dps checks and all that good stuff to progress. However, that point happens much too early and too arbitrarily with this dungeon que the way it is now.

And @Kneighbors I understand that can also be the case, which is why there would be alternate random ques for each tier of dungeons. You would be able to check 1, 2, or all 3 if you wished. It's the simplest solution to this problem.

Yeah I totally agree with you there supposed to be much more options in dungeon finder. But we are currently looking at barely working group finder, asking for more options is like asking your 94' Daihatsu for autopilot.