Dungeon Finder Suggestion (PC)

Merlin13KAGL

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Sometimes you need to learn when to "call it." because, for whatever reason, the end result's not going to happen.

"You need to learn when to give up" is a terrible mentality to impart to new players. That's a morale killer. Save the brick walls for 50, or even CP 160. No need to front-load the pain like that.

Ok, let's try this again using my words. I'll even clarify.

Everyone needs to learn when it is not reasonable, in the current circumstance, to continue.

That's not a moral killer, that's reality. Anyone that's been hard at Undaunted for some time, feel free to jump in here.

What kills moral is when, for whatever reason, a reasonable and often experienced person see that success really isn't likely but allows the group to continue to beat their heads against the wall for 1, 2, 3 hours when it's reasonably not going to happen. That's when people get frustrated, discouraged, and never want to go back to that horrible, horrible place.

Kicker is, that "horrible place" is often a result of the group, stubbornness, fatigue, or half a dozen other legitimate reasons. There's a huge difference between "not right now" and "not ever."

You're hearing "You're too effin' low level - you can't do this," and that is far from what I'm saying. I've been in instance with max level characters where it just wasn't our day. Doesn't matter if we were tired, just flat out screwing up, bad RNG, whatever - and within the group, we made the reasonable decision to stop.

As an experienced individual, it's easier to see some of those subtleties than it is when you're newer. It's what experience is.

If you see these things, recognize these things, and allow it to go on until that level of frustration kicks in, you're doing your groupmembers a disservice. I get called into dungeons to assist all the time, and no one has ever gotten ticked because there was valid reason to stop.

Here's an analogy: If you get a flat tire, and can't get the lugnuts off with your bare hands, is it reasonable for me to let you try for 2 more hours? Or perhaps, seeing that you have no wrench, should I suggest you maybe wait until you do?

Am I killing your morale or am I being reasonable in this situation?

What you're saying is more good life advice than how o actually make a successful game. Games are meant to be escapist in nature, the higher difficulty stuff should come in the middle / at the end and be in its own separate category.

So good life advice doesn't translate to a successful game!? Are you serious?

You're tacking on your own definition here - your interpretation of this. That may not be how other people see it. That is clearly not how ZoS sees it.

And again, some of us don't have 2 hours to spend in a dungeon when we que up for a random normal, and don't always have gulidies online to run with. If your answer to that is just "oh well", then I pray you never go into game design.

Which is why you don't. See above about when it's time to stop and maybe try again another time.

To bottom line all of this, prior to 1 Tamriel all dungeon difficulty was apparently based around level, with the higher difficulty dungeons only accessible by higher level players. 1 Tamriel eliminated level barriers and scaled things like health and resistances, but it did not address the difficulty ramp up of things like mechanics and dps checks between the 1 dungeons and the IIs / DLCs.

Which is also why they eventually scaled your character to CP160 also. It was no longer a one-way street.

This is a huge design oversight, and low level players doing these dungeons is almost certainly not the original intent of the developers.

You are correct about the original intent. This is why there were level differences and why there were leveled zones, and why Version I was 'norm' and Version II was 'vet.'

People, whoever they were, complained they didn't have access. They didn't like going to higher level zones and not being able to take part or 'faceroll,' as you so succinctly put it, so scaling came about.

Edit: And putting 1s and IIs / DLC into separate ques wouldn't ACTUALLY make the process take longer, only the que times themselves. Right now, the failure rate is so high that the overall time to complete a dungeon from que to last boss would actually improve on the whole. And oh right, completion rates themselves would skyrocket, so little to no more wasted time either. Giving players content appropriate to their skill and gear level, what a novel idea!

The queue times are the biggest obstacle with the group finder, and even with your proposed change (to limit the finder), it's not going to make the dungeon run any differently.

Two different queues with two different groups of people mean when you did have a chance for a higher level individual to join you before? Well, you won't have that now, because most aren't going to want to limit their random to half the dungeon possibilities.

If you want to do it as originally intended, pull up the specific dungeon group finder and check the appropriate boxes. You are making this harder than it has to be. Quit making it sound as if you have no option.

You're hellbent for some XP and rewards from daily when you should be focusing on what is keeping you from succeeding in a given situation.

Again, you can ask for advice, you can ask for assistance, or you can leave with a bad taste in your mouth because pride or determination overwhelmed reason.

kargen27

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

"Games are meant to be escapist in nature, the higher difficulty stuff should come in the middle / at the end and be in its own separate category. And again, some of us don't have 2 hours to spend in a dungeon when we que up for a random normal, and don't always have gulidies online to run with. If your answer to that is just "oh well", then I pray you never go into game design."

That is how the game used to be (tiered levels). Problem being players were advancing levels beyond the content they were playing. It got stagnant really quick. So a change was made so players could no matter their level go pretty much anywhere they wanted.

Until a player is ready to run all the dungeons it might be prudent for them to not queue for a random dungeon. Do a few of the easier dungeons then try the tougher ones. Sure you miss out on some experience points but those will come quick enough.

And I still stand by my point that at some point and time you are going to have to deal with mechanics. Being max level and unaware of mechanics can lead to just as quick a disaster in a group as being low level and not familiar with mechanics.

So you're agreeing that the random normal que is broken, and go on to suggest that new players just avoid it? It all just seems like workarounds instead of addressing the actual problem, which is that the que is not working as intended.

I'm of the opinion that if a feature in the game is available to a player, it should work for them. A true level 25 player being dumped into a II dungeon or a DLC dungeon from a solo que isn't my definition of "working".

And I wholeheartedly agree that, at some point, you will have to address mechanics and dps checks and all that good stuff to progress. However, that point happens much too early and too arbitrarily with this dungeon que the way it is now.

And @Kneighbors I understand that can also be the case, which is why there would be alternate random ques for each tier of dungeons. You would be able to check 1, 2, or all 3 if you wished. It's the simplest solution to this problem.

No I am saying you can't divide the queue into smaller segments and you can't deny content to players based on their level. Given that if you want to avoid certain dungeons do not queue for a random. There are a few problems with the group finder, this isn't one of them. The game does work for all players (mostly) that doesn't mean they will be able to stroll through the content. I've been playing since BETA and still haven't made it through vet Maelstrom on any of my characters. I would never ask that they make the run easier though because I know there are players that can do it in about thirty minutes. It is just something I might never finish but I can try. Chances are I'm not going to get emperor either.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

@Merlin13KAGL

I had a proper response written for everything, but there's hardly a point, is there? You're convinced I'm only complaining about myself and not thinking of the fledgling young playerbase as a whole. I am thinking of both parties, and I understand their mentality very well as someone who's been in that position multiple times over the last 10 years and played through positive development choices and negative, but I'm done trying to convince you. My friend probably would have uninstalled that night had I not calmed him down and explained the situation after the fungal grotto II debacle, but I have no idea what I'm talking about, right?

But in regards to your claim about my proposed system not helping things, let's try some math, shall we?

Say a new player is only queing dps, and using the current system as-is. He'll spend 20 minutes in the que, has his dungeon pop, take another 30 for the dungeon, then leave. Cool, fine. Then he'll que again, and the que again takes 20 minutes. But this time, he got White Gold Tower. One hour later, his group gives up and quits. That one hour is, for all intents and purposes, wasted time, because he probably only got 1 or 2 bosses down. But he ques again, and this time after his 20 minute wait he winds up in Fungal Grotto II. He is able to complete it because one of the dps is CP 250 or something, but because the rest of the group is new, it is a slow run and still takes 1.5 hours.

20 minutes, 30 minute clear
20 minutes, 1 hour failure
20 minutes, 1.5 hour clear

So basically, he's spent 240 minutes, 4 hours, to complete two dungeons. And the rates are wildly inconsistent. That's what the que is right now, with a bit of unfortunate rng.

Let's compare that to my proposed system for the same low level player. Let's say 40 minutes to que, because there are smaller populations in each que. So , he wants 40 minutes, gets fungal grotto 1, and completes it in 30 minutes. Next, he ques again, and in 40 minutes, he gets crypt of hearts 1. Completes in in about 30 minutes. Seeing a pattern here? Next, after another 40 minutes, he gets Spindleclutch 1. Another 30 minute clear, no significant problems because it's content actually meant for his level.

40 minutes, 30 minute clear
40 minutes, 30 minute clear
40 minutes, 30 minute clear

210 minutes, 3.5 hours, to complete 3 dungeons. So, less time spent and with higher completion and less frustration. You wait longer, sure, but no more praying to RNGesus that you don't get an awful dungeon. And again, I'm not saying we FORCE them into these brackets, just do checkable boxes as someone suggested above. You can check "random I" and "random II / DLC" separately, or check both at once. Level 50 players will automatically have the "random II / DLC" box checked if they try to random que because otherwise they would just do 1s for quick clears, but they can still check the I if they want.

And to wrap this one up, going back to your point about simply not using the random que, why have such a feature available to everyone if it is not beneficial for them to use? That is just avoiding the problem and thinking up workarounds instead of actually addressing anything. Is it a crazy idea to want a feature to work?

Merlin13KAGL

Crafts...it doesn't even matter at this point who you're talking about.

The tools are provided, you (or your friend) simply refuse to use them. If your math is flawless, your reduced queue time will work just the same using the specific dungeon checkboxes, and your friend can exclude any and all he doesn't like, can't complete, or simply doesn't want as an option this time.

There is zero reason to rework the system further.

• If you want a chance at any dungeon, use the random.
• If you want to filter your options, use the specific & check the boxes.

Your claiming the feature is of no benefit because it doesn't work exactly the way you want it to, even while they give you a method for what you want, is BS and we both know it.

You want to drive a nail with an screwdriver when ZoS has given you a perfectly good hammer.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't keep the horse from complaining that it's not in a martini glass, chilled to precisely 62 degrees.

Not broken aspect is not broken.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Crafts...it doesn't even matter at this point who you're talking about.

The tools are provided, you (or your friend) simply refuse to use them. If your math is flawless, your reduced queue time will work just the same using the specific dungeon checkboxes, and your friend can exclude any and all he doesn't like, can't complete, or simply doesn't want as an option this time.

There is zero reason to rework the system further.

• If you want a chance at any dungeon, use the random.
• If you want to filter your options, use the specific & check the boxes.

Your claiming the feature is of no benefit because it doesn't work exactly the way you want it to, even while they give you a method for what you want, is BS and we both know it.

You want to drive a nail with an screwdriver when ZoS has given you a perfectly good hammer.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't keep the horse from complaining that it's not in a martini glass, chilled to precisely 62 degrees.

Not broken aspect is not broken.

It's not that it doesn't work exactly as I want it, it's that it doesn't work in a way that actually makes sense. It goes beyond just not working perfectly, it works very poorly. By your own analogy, it's like leading a horse to drink from a water source that somebody upstream has been bathing in - sure, he can drink it, but it won't be a pleasant experience.

As it exists now, it is a pointless, mostly detrimental feature for the players who would benefit the most from it (players leveling who could use that bonus XP). Why even have a random normal que if only high level players who are at / near the CP cap are able to use it without a high probability of frustration and disappointment?

If they don't overhaul it to work for ALL players, especially the players who could use it the most, they might as well just remove it entirely. That's my point.

If, for example, I'm a fresh level 20-something and I want to do my first dungeon, if checking boxes and queing manually is the only way to ensure I don't get obliterated by content I was never meant to do, why even give me the option to enter the random que? The game can clearly distinguish players who are on alts and have CP points, it could filter them out.

SquareSausage

version 2 dungeons are way way way too hard for newcomers to the game and would wholly support the option to exclude them from random dungeon queue.

kargen27

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

I had a proper response written for everything, but there's hardly a point, is there? You're convinced I'm only complaining about myself and not thinking of the fledgling young playerbase as a whole. I am thinking of both parties, and I understand their mentality very well as someone who's been in that position multiple times over the last 10 years and played through positive development choices and negative, but I'm done trying to convince you. My friend probably would have uninstalled that night had I not calmed him down and explained the situation after the fungal grotto II debacle, but I have no idea what I'm talking about, right?

But in regards to your claim about my proposed system not helping things, let's try some math, shall we?

Say a new player is only queing dps, and using the current system as-is. He'll spend 20 minutes in the que, has his dungeon pop, take another 30 for the dungeon, then leave. Cool, fine. Then he'll que again, and the que again takes 20 minutes. But this time, he got White Gold Tower. One hour later, his group gives up and quits. That one hour is, for all intents and purposes, wasted time, because he probably only got 1 or 2 bosses down. But he ques again, and this time after his 20 minute wait he winds up in Fungal Grotto II. He is able to complete it because one of the dps is CP 250 or something, but because the rest of the group is new, it is a slow run and still takes 1.5 hours.

20 minutes, 30 minute clear
20 minutes, 1 hour failure
20 minutes, 1.5 hour clear

So basically, he's spent 240 minutes, 4 hours, to complete two dungeons. And the rates are wildly inconsistent. That's what the que is right now, with a bit of unfortunate rng.

Let's compare that to my proposed system for the same low level player. Let's say 40 minutes to que, because there are smaller populations in each que. So , he wants 40 minutes, gets fungal grotto 1, and completes it in 30 minutes. Next, he ques again, and in 40 minutes, he gets crypt of hearts 1. Completes in in about 30 minutes. Seeing a pattern here? Next, after another 40 minutes, he gets Spindleclutch 1. Another 30 minute clear, no significant problems because it's content actually meant for his level.

40 minutes, 30 minute clear
40 minutes, 30 minute clear
40 minutes, 30 minute clear

210 minutes, 3.5 hours, to complete 3 dungeons. So, less time spent and with higher completion and less frustration. You wait longer, sure, but no more praying to RNGesus that you don't get an awful dungeon. And again, I'm not saying we FORCE them into these brackets, just do checkable boxes as someone suggested above. You can check "random I" and "random II / DLC" separately, or check both at once. Level 50 players will automatically have the "random II / DLC" box checked if they try to random que because otherwise they would just do 1s for quick clears, but they can still check the I if they want.

And to wrap this one up, going back to your point about simply not using the random que, why have such a feature available to everyone if it is not beneficial for them to use? That is just avoiding the problem and thinking up workarounds instead of actually addressing anything. Is it a crazy idea to want a feature to work?

"And to wrap this one up, going back to your point about simply not using the random que, why have such a feature available to everyone if it is not beneficial for them to use? "

It is beneficial for them to use. The benefit for doing a random dungeon is bonus experience. Early in the game before the 15 minute penalty people would just keep queue repeatedly until they got the easy dungeon. The reward is there because you could end up with a tough fight. You could also get an easy one maybe. Either way the bonus experience is there to entice you to play a random dungeon.

And again not all low level players have a problem with these dungeons. Also I believe you are greatly underestimating the wait time should the pool of players to draw form be split. Underestimating by hours.

Edit > Oops, didn't know it was going to do the bold text, wasn't my intent to bold things.

Bobby_V_Rockit

I think its stupid that anyone under level 45 can even queue. You only unlock the undaunted pledges then anyway, I dont see why you should be doing dungeons before your appropriate level