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Irylia's Morrowind Msorc Build
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frostbreeze✭✭✭
Had actually gone back over my cp after making this and swapped it around to get more mit.Move points out of ele defender and hardy and put them into ironclad and dotdmgreduction. Those offer general protection against magica + stamina while also scaling better (25% on direct + dot reduction vs 15% on physical + magical).
Edit: Imo getting more absolute dmg reduction far outweights the benefits of accessing unchained.
It does give 5% More mit but unchained is nice if you run shuffle
Since that mitigates more than 5%
Have you found your dmg to be sufficient so far?
I´m personally running 5 bloodthorn 5 lich + monster set (one cost reduction enchant) and even with kena 2p i struggle to kill the average shieldstacking zergsorc.
The dmg reduction this patch seems unreal and i don´t like it
- people just don´t die.
use cost increase poison and i assure u they wont spam shields unless theyre in high regen build like mine :P0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭frostbreeze wrote: »
Had actually gone back over my cp after making this and swapped it around to get more mit.Move points out of ele defender and hardy and put them into ironclad and dotdmgreduction. Those offer general protection against magica + stamina while also scaling better (25% on direct + dot reduction vs 15% on physical + magical).
Edit: Imo getting more absolute dmg reduction far outweights the benefits of accessing unchained.
It does give 5% More mit but unchained is nice if you run shuffle
Since that mitigates more than 5%
Have you found your dmg to be sufficient so far?
I´m personally running 5 bloodthorn 5 lich + monster set (one cost reduction enchant) and even with kena 2p i struggle to kill the average shieldstacking zergsorc.
The dmg reduction this patch seems unreal and i don´t like it - people just don´t die.
use cost increase poison and i assure u they wont spam shields unless theyre in high regen build like mine :P
I don´t enjoy running the things i rant about on forums : P which is why i build without harness/poisons.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 503 -
frostbreeze✭✭✭frostbreeze wrote: »
Had actually gone back over my cp after making this and swapped it around to get more mit.Move points out of ele defender and hardy and put them into ironclad and dotdmgreduction. Those offer general protection against magica + stamina while also scaling better (25% on direct + dot reduction vs 15% on physical + magical).
Edit: Imo getting more absolute dmg reduction far outweights the benefits of accessing unchained.
It does give 5% More mit but unchained is nice if you run shuffle
Since that mitigates more than 5%
Have you found your dmg to be sufficient so far?
I´m personally running 5 bloodthorn 5 lich + monster set (one cost reduction enchant) and even with kena 2p i struggle to kill the average shieldstacking zergsorc.
The dmg reduction this patch seems unreal and i don´t like it - people just don´t die.
use cost increase poison and i assure u they wont spam shields unless theyre in high regen build like mine :P
I don´t enjoy running the things i rant about on forums : P which is why i build without harness/poisons.
JOIN THE DARKSIDE DERRA0 -
Hutch679✭✭✭✭✭
✭frostbreeze wrote: »frostbreeze wrote: »
Had actually gone back over my cp after making this and swapped it around to get more mit.Move points out of ele defender and hardy and put them into ironclad and dotdmgreduction. Those offer general protection against magica + stamina while also scaling better (25% on direct + dot reduction vs 15% on physical + magical).
Edit: Imo getting more absolute dmg reduction far outweights the benefits of accessing unchained.
It does give 5% More mit but unchained is nice if you run shuffle
Since that mitigates more than 5%
Have you found your dmg to be sufficient so far?
I´m personally running 5 bloodthorn 5 lich + monster set (one cost reduction enchant) and even with kena 2p i struggle to kill the average shieldstacking zergsorc.
The dmg reduction this patch seems unreal and i don´t like it - people just don´t die.
use cost increase poison and i assure u they wont spam shields unless theyre in high regen build like mine :P
I don´t enjoy running the things i rant about on forums : P which is why i build without harness/poisons.
JOIN THE DARKSIDE DERRA
Poisons all day. Im all about em. If it's in the game, it's fair because everyone has access to them. LolEdited by Hutch679 on May 25, 2017 1:51PM0 -
Irylia✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Sorry for the long response.frostbreeze wrote: »Im using same gear since the release . If u wanna use this on bg i suggest getting atro mundus instead and dont use dark deal at all in there. For open world no cp i totally agree remove harness for dark deal. For cp i use different build which i find quite a bit stronger which is 5shackle-5alteration mastery 1 maelstorm . The reason its stronger with cp is u get 16% less costs in ur dodge and break free so u dont really need more than 1k stam reg. Nonetheless shackle+witchmother+ 3 prismatic will be sorc meta this patch.
Also use streak and destroy every stamina build outhere instead of useless bol
mind sharing few more details on shackle + alt ? such as jewel glyphs, mundus etc ?
also, how would you adapt shackle + alt for no cp bg ?
Thanks
I think alteration mastery is BiS for no-CP. it reduces everything.
The math says that amber plasm is much more efficient than shackle, since you get more overall set bonuses worth of stats with amber you can recover the stamina into your build easier by dropping witchmothers
Whole point of shacklebreaker is it allows the use witchmothers lol
e: @Irylia Only problem I have with the way you setup the build (I'm running the same) is the full SD enchants on the jewellery. 3.2k streak cost, 2.3k force pulse cost are just disgusting. You think 1 reduce cost may be more beneficial or is the SD making that much of a difference?
Tl:dr
Regen + darkdeal more effective than cost reduction in a longer line of play. (Lifespan)
Spell damage > cost reduc because a dead enemy is your cost reduc.
For sorc I'm going to assume. Dark deal offsets the need for heavy cost reduction. Run a higher Stam gen and I can roll break los dark deal often. How I see it is cost reduction is great while you are full but when you get empty you won't have high enough regen to fill back up. The lower your mag pool the less effective your exponential gameplay will be. Say you run 3x cost reduction glyphs or Breton alteration mastery. Your regen will be below 1k Stam gen won't be high enough for dak deal and so sure your skills will be much cheaper but what do you do when you've run out: you may extend the life span of your mag pool by 10 seconds on me but you have no way of replenishing your resources nearly as effectively and that allows me to continue my line of play.
To answer your question about spell damage glyphs. I run 3 because with these sets drink and serpent mundus no cp I get all the regen I need. Dark deal amplifies that. You use it proactively rather than reactively when dry. The damage is because my philosophy has always been. Kill them faster than they can kill or be on you. That's a much more effective cost reduction that an actual cost reduc. I was running 600 Stam gen 1488 mag gen w/o lich proc and no cost reduction cp last patch and my sustain never felt pressured unless Ann overwhelming amount of people were on me. I could roll break run spam skills all because my enemies would die to a basic curse frag fury w/ weaves. Better players take more ofc but there's a reason I've never swapped my build since 1tam
Playstyle might be a large part but I honestly believe bsw lich core was bis. And is going to be my main cp build still.
Had actually gone back over my cp after making this and swapped it around to get more mit.Move points out of ele defender and hardy and put them into ironclad and dotdmgreduction. Those offer general protection against magica + stamina while also scaling better (25% on direct + dot reduction vs 15% on physical + magical).
Edit: Imo getting more absolute dmg reduction far outweights the benefits of accessing unchained.
It does give 5% More mit but unchained is nice if you run shuffle
Since that mitigates more than 5%
Have you found your dmg to be sufficient so far?
I´m personally running 5 bloodthorn 5 lich + monster set (one cost reduction enchant) and even with kena 2p i struggle to kill the average shieldstacking zergsorc.
The dmg reduction this patch seems unreal and i don´t like it - people just don´t die.
Can you switch out bloodthorn for something with more damage? You see, ZOS wants you to heavy attack for resources, rather than having infinite.
A low damage high regen build just isn't viable except in no-CP land (where they're arguably OP). I tried a Lich-Seducer build with similar results.
I´m using it with 2p kena active @3.6k spelldmg 40300 magica. I can still oneshot potatoes no questions asked.
But i can´t break shieldstackers anymore when they have the correct CP setup.
For me personally a setup relying on dark deal or/and without a monster set is not desireable.
Time your burst on a msorc. Every sorc has a unique pattern and ward re up effectiveness. Bait them to be more aggressive and use a db ini combo when they are unaware. I've never had an issue with sorcS. Those are my most enjoyable duels.
Sustain and damage are perfect. No cp I'm running serpent and drop inner light for degen. Boundless dark deal back. Still one shot people.1 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?0 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Time your burst on a msorc. Every sorc has a unique pattern and ward re up effectiveness. Bait them to be more aggressive and use a db ini combo when they are unaware. I've never had an issue with sorcS. Those are my most enjoyable duels.
Sustain and damage are perfect. No cp I'm running serpent and drop inner light for degen. Boundless dark deal back. Still one shot people.
I´m talking about those that stop being agressive when they realize they won´t win the fight and resort to jumping and only casting shields.
I could break those without pirate last patch. I can´t this one.Edited by Derra on May 25, 2017 6:43PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?
I know you directed that at Irylia but I have been running two reduction sets using thief and major prophecy in my build...based on that same premise. Just pugging BGs for now, the build has been fantastic in performance. I have gone probably 90% of my games with zero deaths and leading the scoreboard with kills.1 -
Hutch679✭✭✭✭✭
✭Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?
Thief mundus and inner light are both really strong for no cp if you have enough sustain. I personally think 1800 mag regen and 1k stamp regen is easily enough for no cp/battlegeounds. I am running with less currently in aura (xbox one) and I still have no issues for real. I don't even use dark conversion. Now in morrowind I know this is gonna be much different because some passives changing in light armor skills. I'll still be running spell damage glyphs for sure though.0 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?
Thief mundus and inner light are both really strong for no cp if you have enough sustain. I personally think 1800 mag regen and 1k stamp regen is easily enough for no cp/battlegeounds. I am running with less currently in aura (xbox one) and I still have no issues for real. I don't even use dark conversion. Now in morrowind I know this is gonna be much different because some passives changing in light armor skills. I'll still be running spell damage glyphs for sure though.
Sustain barely changed in a no CP environment. Sure, you get less regen/reduction from light/medium and less return from constitution, but resource poisons are significantly less strong this patch. Heavy attacks return more resources now as well.1 -
NightbladeMechanics✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
My formula:
Percent cost reduction * average cost of abilities * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2 = equivalent effective regen
Or flat cost reduction * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2
Kena
Legion XIII
Excellence without elitism
Premier small scale PvP
Legend
NA/PC's original dueling and PvP community guild
Now NA/PC's dueling, BGs, small scale, GvG, and general PvP community. We float just under 500 members. Mail me in game for an invite.
Apex Predator.
Here's a great thread collecting community ideas for PvP updates.
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Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
My formula:
Percent cost reduction * average cost of abilities * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2 = equivalent effective regen
Or flat cost reduction * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2
Which is basically what I said, right? So take a seducers and alteration mastery set up with a 3k average spell cost assuming 1 cast per second.
14% * 3000 * 1 * 2 = 840 comparable magicka regen0 -
NightbladeMechanics✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Malamar1229 wrote: »NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
My formula:
Percent cost reduction * average cost of abilities * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2 = equivalent effective regen
Or flat cost reduction * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2
Which is basically what I said, right? So take a seducers and alteration mastery set up with a 3k average spell cost assuming 1 cast per second.
14% * 3000 * 1 * 2 = 840 comparable magicka regen
I'm not reading details. I glanced through the thread because I was tagged. I'll return to check math and inspect the build more closely after work.Edited by NightbladeMechanics on May 25, 2017 11:06PMKena
Legion XIII
Excellence without elitism
Premier small scale PvP
Legend
NA/PC's original dueling and PvP community guild
Now NA/PC's dueling, BGs, small scale, GvG, and general PvP community. We float just under 500 members. Mail me in game for an invite.
Apex Predator.
Here's a great thread collecting community ideas for PvP updates.
[MEGATHREAD] Feedback Threads for Class Reps
Class Representative Feedback Discords:Nightblade Discussion:
https://discord.gg/t2Xhnu6
Dragonknight Discussion:
https://discord.gg/UHtZhz8
Sorcerer Discussion:
https://discord.gg/e3QkCS8
Templar Discussion:
https://discord.gg/WvVuSw7
Warden Discussion:
https://discord.gg/sTFY4ys
General Healing Discussion:
https://discord.gg/6CmzBFb
TONKS!
https://discord.gg/DRNYd39
Werewolf Discussion:
https://discord.gg/aDEx2ev
Vampire Discussion:
https://discord.gg/yfzck8Q0 -
Irylia✭✭✭✭✭
✭Malamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?
I know you directed that at Irylia but I have been running two reduction sets using thief and major prophecy in my build...based on that same premise. Just pugging BGs for now, the build has been fantastic in performance. I have gone probably 90% of my games with zero deaths and leading the scoreboard with kills.
It comes down to I wanted more space on my bars for boundless and to do this I dropped inner light. Because my crit chance then drops 20% I remove shadow for serpent so I can have my constant up time of damage where as most will run out. With boundless defending resto I have 20k resistances and solid crit resist. I think that mitigation is important In no cp because of how small one 7k ward is. And I understand that's because I drop harness for dark deal but it means my sustainability never ends especially with serpent added.
How I see it is I could have 20% crit but I'd lose 5k resistances and my serpent mundus and that lessens my ability to survive by rolling. Taking hits. Converting for mag.
I play aggressively in bg's and tend to be in the thrall without my teammates most of the time. Unless ofc it's premade. Then we rotate as we see fit to help one another. But since I'll be between 3 of each team I prefer the suevivability since my damage is already solid with 3.3k spell and closely timed burst1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Had actually gone back over my cp after making this and swapped it around to get more mit.Move points out of ele defender and hardy and put them into ironclad and dotdmgreduction. Those offer general protection against magica + stamina while also scaling better (25% on direct + dot reduction vs 15% on physical + magical).
Edit: Imo getting more absolute dmg reduction far outweights the benefits of accessing unchained.
It does give 5% More mit but unchained is nice if you run shuffle
Since that mitigates more than 5%
Have you found your dmg to be sufficient so far?
I´m personally running 5 bloodthorn 5 lich + monster set (one cost reduction enchant) and even with kena 2p i struggle to kill the average shieldstacking zergsorc.
The dmg reduction this patch seems unreal and i don´t like it - people just don´t die.
Can you switch out bloodthorn for something with more damage? You see, ZOS wants you to heavy attack for resources, rather than having infinite.
A low damage high regen build just isn't viable except in no-CP land (where they're arguably OP). I tried a Lich-Seducer build with similar results.
Just saw this thread and jumping in late. I'm using two sets that are arguably so far from meta, neither are sustain or DMG lol. What's helps for those/my builds is a reliable, AOE cc. Without it, I wouldn't be able to time a moment to keep the enemy down so they accept all the DMG im storing up on them.
But yes I agree, a set for DMG is required in CP and 37-40 in the DMG stay off your choosing (or SD/WD equivalent).
NCP just hit 30k 2k SD/wd and stack those Regen.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
cschwingeb14_ESO✭✭✭✭After running Amberplasm willpower vMA-staff last patch in no CP, this setup is an upgrade on paper. I've built this setup with 5x well fitted 2x impen, and am down to about 2.5k stam cost for dodge rolls (5-1-1). Having 1.8k mag regen and 1.3k stam regen 30k magicka, and 2.4k SD (3x SD glyphs) unbuffed is pretty awesome.
I'm not sure I should go 7x well fitted, but it's moot until I do some more farming for Amberplasm small pieces. Not that it's hard.
If you don't have a vMA staff, it's easy to run shackle breaker staves and 1x monster of your choice. The only grindy part is Amber plasm jewelry
Now I just need prime-time BGs to actually work0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »After running Amberplasm willpower vMA-staff last patch in no CP, this setup is an upgrade on paper. I've built this setup with 5x well fitted 2x impen, and am down to about 2.5k stam cost for dodge rolls (5-1-1). Having 1.8k mag regen and 1.3k stam regen 30k magicka, and 2.4k SD (3x SD glyphs) unbuffed is pretty awesome.
I'm not sure I should go 7x well fitted, but it's moot until I do some more farming for Amberplasm small pieces. Not that it's hard.
If you don't have a vMA staff, it's easy to run shackle breaker staves and 1x monster of your choice. The only grindy part is Amber plasm jewelry
Now I just need prime-time BGs to actually work
With the changes to dodge roll reduction CP, you can get the equivalent of 2 well fitted pieces for 23 points. 5WF+2impen with that reduction would be better than 7 WF. Though id swap out 2 more WF for impen giving you 3WF, 4 impen if you just want to run the same stats.
That might let you run more DMG mitigation instead of trying to get more impen via CP.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
cschwingeb14_ESO✭✭✭✭I'm in noCP all the time. The HA meta has a lot of people running with some extremely low crit rates. I run 2 shields and occasionally mutagen or a 3rd shield, depending on who I'm with. Low impen is a risk, but a lot less than in CP where crit chance is a lot higher
Well fitted doesn't give much benefit unless you have enough stam regen and stam pool, but once you do, it pairs very well with damage shields. 25% lower dodge roll cost is saving about 800 every roll. With immovable or tri-pots, even double rolls can be used.0 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
My formula:
Percent cost reduction * average cost of abilities * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2 = equivalent effective regen
Or flat cost reduction * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2
I'd say 3k is an easily acceptable median. I know it will vary by builds, but with no other cost reducMalamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?
I know you directed that at Irylia but I have been running two reduction sets using thief and major prophecy in my build...based on that same premise. Just pugging BGs for now, the build has been fantastic in performance. I have gone probably 90% of my games with zero deaths and leading the scoreboard with kills.
It comes down to I wanted more space on my bars for boundless and to do this I dropped inner light. Because my crit chance then drops 20% I remove shadow for serpent so I can have my constant up time of damage where as most will run out. With boundless defending resto I have 20k resistances and solid crit resist. I think that mitigation is important In no cp because of how small one 7k ward is. And I understand that's because I drop harness for dark deal but it means my sustainability never ends especially with serpent added.
How I see it is I could have 20% crit but I'd lose 5k resistances and my serpent mundus and that lessens my ability to survive by rolling. Taking hits. Converting for mag.
I play aggressively in bg's and tend to be in the thrall without my teammates most of the time. Unless ofc it's premade. Then we rotate as we see fit to help one another. But since I'll be between 3 of each team I prefer the suevivability since my damage is already solid with 3.3k spell and closely timed burst
This makes perfect sense, thanks for taking the time to answer. Basically its a playstyle thing, if you're yolo'ing into enemies then the mitigation from boundless is nice when the single shield inevitably goes down. Would you recommend more "traditional" ranged style sorc gameplay to utilize inner light+thief(shadow?) or do you think the extra mobility + mitigation is still of value when you're just there for ranged burst and negate on a pre-made group?cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »I'm in noCP all the time. The HA meta has a lot of people running with some extremely low crit rates. I run 2 shields and occasionally mutagen or a 3rd shield, depending on who I'm with. Low impen is a risk, but a lot less than in CP where crit chance is a lot higher
Well fitted doesn't give much benefit unless you have enough stam regen and stam pool, but once you do, it pairs very well with damage shields. 25% lower dodge roll cost is saving about 800 every roll. With immovable or tri-pots, even double rolls can be used.
Its people like this guy that make me shudder to think of dropping all that crit...0 -
Hutch679✭✭✭✭✭
✭NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
My formula:
Percent cost reduction * average cost of abilities * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2 = equivalent effective regen
Or flat cost reduction * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2
I'd say 3k is an easily acceptable median. I know it will vary by builds, but with no other cost reducMalamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?
I know you directed that at Irylia but I have been running two reduction sets using thief and major prophecy in my build...based on that same premise. Just pugging BGs for now, the build has been fantastic in performance. I have gone probably 90% of my games with zero deaths and leading the scoreboard with kills.
It comes down to I wanted more space on my bars for boundless and to do this I dropped inner light. Because my crit chance then drops 20% I remove shadow for serpent so I can have my constant up time of damage where as most will run out. With boundless defending resto I have 20k resistances and solid crit resist. I think that mitigation is important In no cp because of how small one 7k ward is. And I understand that's because I drop harness for dark deal but it means my sustainability never ends especially with serpent added.
How I see it is I could have 20% crit but I'd lose 5k resistances and my serpent mundus and that lessens my ability to survive by rolling. Taking hits. Converting for mag.
I play aggressively in bg's and tend to be in the thrall without my teammates most of the time. Unless ofc it's premade. Then we rotate as we see fit to help one another. But since I'll be between 3 of each team I prefer the suevivability since my damage is already solid with 3.3k spell and closely timed burst
This makes perfect sense, thanks for taking the time to answer. Basically its a playstyle thing, if you're yolo'ing into enemies then the mitigation from boundless is nice when the single shield inevitably goes down. Would you recommend more "traditional" ranged style sorc gameplay to utilize inner light+thief(shadow?) or do you think the extra mobility + mitigation is still of value when you're just there for ranged burst and negate on a pre-made group?cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »I'm in noCP all the time. The HA meta has a lot of people running with some extremely low crit rates. I run 2 shields and occasionally mutagen or a 3rd shield, depending on who I'm with. Low impen is a risk, but a lot less than in CP where crit chance is a lot higher
Well fitted doesn't give much benefit unless you have enough stam regen and stam pool, but once you do, it pairs very well with damage shields. 25% lower dodge roll cost is saving about 800 every roll. With immovable or tri-pots, even double rolls can be used.
Its people like this guy that make me shudder to think of dropping all that crit...
I have to use hardened on my main bar. Playing on console there is a slight lag between bar switching. Therefore I can't run inner light. My main bar is frag, structured entropy, haunting curse, hardened ward, mage fury, dawn breaker (ps I dual wield). My back bar is harness mag, healing ward, mines, boundless storm, streak, resto ultimate. I think I can try to run thief with @Irylia 's setup and be okay. I've run with less sustain for real. I've though about dripping harness magicka for something. I'd what though lol0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
My formula:
Percent cost reduction * average cost of abilities * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2 = equivalent effective regen
Or flat cost reduction * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2
I'd say 3k is an easily acceptable median. I know it will vary by builds, but with no other cost reducMalamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?
I know you directed that at Irylia but I have been running two reduction sets using thief and major prophecy in my build...based on that same premise. Just pugging BGs for now, the build has been fantastic in performance. I have gone probably 90% of my games with zero deaths and leading the scoreboard with kills.
It comes down to I wanted more space on my bars for boundless and to do this I dropped inner light. Because my crit chance then drops 20% I remove shadow for serpent so I can have my constant up time of damage where as most will run out. With boundless defending resto I have 20k resistances and solid crit resist. I think that mitigation is important In no cp because of how small one 7k ward is. And I understand that's because I drop harness for dark deal but it means my sustainability never ends especially with serpent added.
How I see it is I could have 20% crit but I'd lose 5k resistances and my serpent mundus and that lessens my ability to survive by rolling. Taking hits. Converting for mag.
I play aggressively in bg's and tend to be in the thrall without my teammates most of the time. Unless ofc it's premade. Then we rotate as we see fit to help one another. But since I'll be between 3 of each team I prefer the suevivability since my damage is already solid with 3.3k spell and closely timed burst
This makes perfect sense, thanks for taking the time to answer. Basically its a playstyle thing, if you're yolo'ing into enemies then the mitigation from boundless is nice when the single shield inevitably goes down. Would you recommend more "traditional" ranged style sorc gameplay to utilize inner light+thief(shadow?) or do you think the extra mobility + mitigation is still of value when you're just there for ranged burst and negate on a pre-made group?cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »I'm in noCP all the time. The HA meta has a lot of people running with some extremely low crit rates. I run 2 shields and occasionally mutagen or a 3rd shield, depending on who I'm with. Low impen is a risk, but a lot less than in CP where crit chance is a lot higher
Well fitted doesn't give much benefit unless you have enough stam regen and stam pool, but once you do, it pairs very well with damage shields. 25% lower dodge roll cost is saving about 800 every roll. With immovable or tri-pots, even double rolls can be used.
Its people like this guy that make me shudder to think of dropping all that crit...
I have to use hardened on my main bar. Playing on console there is a slight lag between bar switching. Therefore I can't run inner light. My main bar is frag, structured entropy, haunting curse, hardened ward, mage fury, dawn breaker (ps I dual wield). My back bar is harness mag, healing ward, mines, boundless storm, streak, resto ultimate. I think I can try to run thief with @Irylia 's setup and be okay. I've run with less sustain for real. I've though about dripping harness magicka for something. I'd what though lol
You can safely back bar curse and put mage light on for the bigger hardened ward.
When I meet a new friend out in Cyro I'm usually going to be on the defending resto bar anyways. Open up with a heavy attack (e.g. some nasty poison), curse, then switch bars and light them up.
I'm pretty sure curse can't empower, so you don't need to degen/entropy first, and with the delay you can always swap/degen/frag/wrath with ani cancelling so the burst always lands together.Edited by Minalan on May 26, 2017 11:57PM0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
My formula:
Percent cost reduction * average cost of abilities * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2 = equivalent effective regen
Or flat cost reduction * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2
I'd say 3k is an easily acceptable median. I know it will vary by builds, but with no other cost reducMalamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?
I know you directed that at Irylia but I have been running two reduction sets using thief and major prophecy in my build...based on that same premise. Just pugging BGs for now, the build has been fantastic in performance. I have gone probably 90% of my games with zero deaths and leading the scoreboard with kills.
It comes down to I wanted more space on my bars for boundless and to do this I dropped inner light. Because my crit chance then drops 20% I remove shadow for serpent so I can have my constant up time of damage where as most will run out. With boundless defending resto I have 20k resistances and solid crit resist. I think that mitigation is important In no cp because of how small one 7k ward is. And I understand that's because I drop harness for dark deal but it means my sustainability never ends especially with serpent added.
How I see it is I could have 20% crit but I'd lose 5k resistances and my serpent mundus and that lessens my ability to survive by rolling. Taking hits. Converting for mag.
I play aggressively in bg's and tend to be in the thrall without my teammates most of the time. Unless ofc it's premade. Then we rotate as we see fit to help one another. But since I'll be between 3 of each team I prefer the suevivability since my damage is already solid with 3.3k spell and closely timed burst
This makes perfect sense, thanks for taking the time to answer. Basically its a playstyle thing, if you're yolo'ing into enemies then the mitigation from boundless is nice when the single shield inevitably goes down. Would you recommend more "traditional" ranged style sorc gameplay to utilize inner light+thief(shadow?) or do you think the extra mobility + mitigation is still of value when you're just there for ranged burst and negate on a pre-made group?cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »I'm in noCP all the time. The HA meta has a lot of people running with some extremely low crit rates. I run 2 shields and occasionally mutagen or a 3rd shield, depending on who I'm with. Low impen is a risk, but a lot less than in CP where crit chance is a lot higher
Well fitted doesn't give much benefit unless you have enough stam regen and stam pool, but once you do, it pairs very well with damage shields. 25% lower dodge roll cost is saving about 800 every roll. With immovable or tri-pots, even double rolls can be used.
Its people like this guy that make me shudder to think of dropping all that crit...
I have to use hardened on my main bar. Playing on console there is a slight lag between bar switching. Therefore I can't run inner light. My main bar is frag, structured entropy, haunting curse, hardened ward, mage fury, dawn breaker (ps I dual wield). My back bar is harness mag, healing ward, mines, boundless storm, streak, resto ultimate. I think I can try to run thief with @Irylia 's setup and be okay. I've run with less sustain for real. I've though about dripping harness magicka for something. I'd what though lol
You can safely back bar curse and put mage light on for the bigger hardened ward.
When I meet a new friend out in Cyro I'm usually going to be on the defending resto bar anyways. Open up with a heavy attack (e.g. some nasty poison), curse, then switch bars and light them up.
I'm pretty sure curse can't empower, so you don't need to degen/entropy first, and with the delay you can always swap/degen/frag/wrath with ani cancelling so the burst always lands together.
I do the same thing but as Templar with unstable core. Defensive til I can go offensive, then burst it.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Hutch679✭✭✭✭✭
✭NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
My formula:
Percent cost reduction * average cost of abilities * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2 = equivalent effective regen
Or flat cost reduction * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2
I'd say 3k is an easily acceptable median. I know it will vary by builds, but with no other cost reducMalamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?
I know you directed that at Irylia but I have been running two reduction sets using thief and major prophecy in my build...based on that same premise. Just pugging BGs for now, the build has been fantastic in performance. I have gone probably 90% of my games with zero deaths and leading the scoreboard with kills.
It comes down to I wanted more space on my bars for boundless and to do this I dropped inner light. Because my crit chance then drops 20% I remove shadow for serpent so I can have my constant up time of damage where as most will run out. With boundless defending resto I have 20k resistances and solid crit resist. I think that mitigation is important In no cp because of how small one 7k ward is. And I understand that's because I drop harness for dark deal but it means my sustainability never ends especially with serpent added.
How I see it is I could have 20% crit but I'd lose 5k resistances and my serpent mundus and that lessens my ability to survive by rolling. Taking hits. Converting for mag.
I play aggressively in bg's and tend to be in the thrall without my teammates most of the time. Unless ofc it's premade. Then we rotate as we see fit to help one another. But since I'll be between 3 of each team I prefer the suevivability since my damage is already solid with 3.3k spell and closely timed burst
This makes perfect sense, thanks for taking the time to answer. Basically its a playstyle thing, if you're yolo'ing into enemies then the mitigation from boundless is nice when the single shield inevitably goes down. Would you recommend more "traditional" ranged style sorc gameplay to utilize inner light+thief(shadow?) or do you think the extra mobility + mitigation is still of value when you're just there for ranged burst and negate on a pre-made group?cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »I'm in noCP all the time. The HA meta has a lot of people running with some extremely low crit rates. I run 2 shields and occasionally mutagen or a 3rd shield, depending on who I'm with. Low impen is a risk, but a lot less than in CP where crit chance is a lot higher
Well fitted doesn't give much benefit unless you have enough stam regen and stam pool, but once you do, it pairs very well with damage shields. 25% lower dodge roll cost is saving about 800 every roll. With immovable or tri-pots, even double rolls can be used.
Its people like this guy that make me shudder to think of dropping all that crit...
I have to use hardened on my main bar. Playing on console there is a slight lag between bar switching. Therefore I can't run inner light. My main bar is frag, structured entropy, haunting curse, hardened ward, mage fury, dawn breaker (ps I dual wield). My back bar is harness mag, healing ward, mines, boundless storm, streak, resto ultimate. I think I can try to run thief with @Irylia 's setup and be okay. I've run with less sustain for real. I've though about dripping harness magicka for something. I'd what though lol
You can safely back bar curse and put mage light on for the bigger hardened ward.
When I meet a new friend out in Cyro I'm usually going to be on the defending resto bar anyways. Open up with a heavy attack (e.g. some nasty poison), curse, then switch bars and light them up.
I'm pretty sure curse can't empower, so you don't need to degen/entropy first, and with the delay you can always swap/degen/frag/wrath with ani cancelling so the burst always lands together.
Very helpful. If I dropped harness I could for sure use curse on back bar. Inner light on front bar would be nice for the empowered frag/ mage fury/ dawn breaker combo. Honestly I love playing dual wield. It forces you to focus on burst rather than just just spam crushing shock.0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
My formula:
Percent cost reduction * average cost of abilities * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2 = equivalent effective regen
Or flat cost reduction * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2
I'd say 3k is an easily acceptable median. I know it will vary by builds, but with no other cost reducMalamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?
I know you directed that at Irylia but I have been running two reduction sets using thief and major prophecy in my build...based on that same premise. Just pugging BGs for now, the build has been fantastic in performance. I have gone probably 90% of my games with zero deaths and leading the scoreboard with kills.
It comes down to I wanted more space on my bars for boundless and to do this I dropped inner light. Because my crit chance then drops 20% I remove shadow for serpent so I can have my constant up time of damage where as most will run out. With boundless defending resto I have 20k resistances and solid crit resist. I think that mitigation is important In no cp because of how small one 7k ward is. And I understand that's because I drop harness for dark deal but it means my sustainability never ends especially with serpent added.
How I see it is I could have 20% crit but I'd lose 5k resistances and my serpent mundus and that lessens my ability to survive by rolling. Taking hits. Converting for mag.
I play aggressively in bg's and tend to be in the thrall without my teammates most of the time. Unless ofc it's premade. Then we rotate as we see fit to help one another. But since I'll be between 3 of each team I prefer the suevivability since my damage is already solid with 3.3k spell and closely timed burst
This makes perfect sense, thanks for taking the time to answer. Basically its a playstyle thing, if you're yolo'ing into enemies then the mitigation from boundless is nice when the single shield inevitably goes down. Would you recommend more "traditional" ranged style sorc gameplay to utilize inner light+thief(shadow?) or do you think the extra mobility + mitigation is still of value when you're just there for ranged burst and negate on a pre-made group?cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »I'm in noCP all the time. The HA meta has a lot of people running with some extremely low crit rates. I run 2 shields and occasionally mutagen or a 3rd shield, depending on who I'm with. Low impen is a risk, but a lot less than in CP where crit chance is a lot higher
Well fitted doesn't give much benefit unless you have enough stam regen and stam pool, but once you do, it pairs very well with damage shields. 25% lower dodge roll cost is saving about 800 every roll. With immovable or tri-pots, even double rolls can be used.
Its people like this guy that make me shudder to think of dropping all that crit...
I have to use hardened on my main bar. Playing on console there is a slight lag between bar switching. Therefore I can't run inner light. My main bar is frag, structured entropy, haunting curse, hardened ward, mage fury, dawn breaker (ps I dual wield). My back bar is harness mag, healing ward, mines, boundless storm, streak, resto ultimate. I think I can try to run thief with @Irylia 's setup and be okay. I've run with less sustain for real. I've though about dripping harness magicka for something. I'd what though lol
You can safely back bar curse and put mage light on for the bigger hardened ward.
When I meet a new friend out in Cyro I'm usually going to be on the defending resto bar anyways. Open up with a heavy attack (e.g. some nasty poison), curse, then switch bars and light them up.
I'm pretty sure curse can't empower, so you don't need to degen/entropy first, and with the delay you can always swap/degen/frag/wrath with ani cancelling so the burst always lands together.
Very helpful. If I dropped harness I could for sure use curse on back bar. Inner light on front bar would be nice for the empowered frag/ mage fury/ dawn breaker combo. Honestly I love playing dual wield. It forces you to focus on burst rather than just just spam crushing shock.
If you front bar a shield and boost the mag pool with inner light, you won't need harness or a second shield. Ideally.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
Hutch679✭✭✭✭✭
✭NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
My formula:
Percent cost reduction * average cost of abilities * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2 = equivalent effective regen
Or flat cost reduction * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2
I'd say 3k is an easily acceptable median. I know it will vary by builds, but with no other cost reducMalamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?
I know you directed that at Irylia but I have been running two reduction sets using thief and major prophecy in my build...based on that same premise. Just pugging BGs for now, the build has been fantastic in performance. I have gone probably 90% of my games with zero deaths and leading the scoreboard with kills.
It comes down to I wanted more space on my bars for boundless and to do this I dropped inner light. Because my crit chance then drops 20% I remove shadow for serpent so I can have my constant up time of damage where as most will run out. With boundless defending resto I have 20k resistances and solid crit resist. I think that mitigation is important In no cp because of how small one 7k ward is. And I understand that's because I drop harness for dark deal but it means my sustainability never ends especially with serpent added.
How I see it is I could have 20% crit but I'd lose 5k resistances and my serpent mundus and that lessens my ability to survive by rolling. Taking hits. Converting for mag.
I play aggressively in bg's and tend to be in the thrall without my teammates most of the time. Unless ofc it's premade. Then we rotate as we see fit to help one another. But since I'll be between 3 of each team I prefer the suevivability since my damage is already solid with 3.3k spell and closely timed burst
This makes perfect sense, thanks for taking the time to answer. Basically its a playstyle thing, if you're yolo'ing into enemies then the mitigation from boundless is nice when the single shield inevitably goes down. Would you recommend more "traditional" ranged style sorc gameplay to utilize inner light+thief(shadow?) or do you think the extra mobility + mitigation is still of value when you're just there for ranged burst and negate on a pre-made group?cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »I'm in noCP all the time. The HA meta has a lot of people running with some extremely low crit rates. I run 2 shields and occasionally mutagen or a 3rd shield, depending on who I'm with. Low impen is a risk, but a lot less than in CP where crit chance is a lot higher
Well fitted doesn't give much benefit unless you have enough stam regen and stam pool, but once you do, it pairs very well with damage shields. 25% lower dodge roll cost is saving about 800 every roll. With immovable or tri-pots, even double rolls can be used.
Its people like this guy that make me shudder to think of dropping all that crit...
I have to use hardened on my main bar. Playing on console there is a slight lag between bar switching. Therefore I can't run inner light. My main bar is frag, structured entropy, haunting curse, hardened ward, mage fury, dawn breaker (ps I dual wield). My back bar is harness mag, healing ward, mines, boundless storm, streak, resto ultimate. I think I can try to run thief with @Irylia 's setup and be okay. I've run with less sustain for real. I've though about dripping harness magicka for something. I'd what though lol
You can safely back bar curse and put mage light on for the bigger hardened ward.
When I meet a new friend out in Cyro I'm usually going to be on the defending resto bar anyways. Open up with a heavy attack (e.g. some nasty poison), curse, then switch bars and light them up.
I'm pretty sure curse can't empower, so you don't need to degen/entropy first, and with the delay you can always swap/degen/frag/wrath with ani cancelling so the burst always lands together.
I do the same thing but as Templar with unstable core. Defensive til I can go offensive, then burst it.
This is the best way to play in my opinion. One bar for defense, one bar for offense. Plan your burst out while easily being able to defend yourself. Honestly every class should have something similar to even the playing field (zos cnt get it right though).0 -
Irylia✭✭✭✭✭
✭NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
My formula:
Percent cost reduction * average cost of abilities * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2 = equivalent effective regen
Or flat cost reduction * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2
I'd say 3k is an easily acceptable median. I know it will vary by builds, but with no other cost reducMalamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?
I know you directed that at Irylia but I have been running two reduction sets using thief and major prophecy in my build...based on that same premise. Just pugging BGs for now, the build has been fantastic in performance. I have gone probably 90% of my games with zero deaths and leading the scoreboard with kills.
It comes down to I wanted more space on my bars for boundless and to do this I dropped inner light. Because my crit chance then drops 20% I remove shadow for serpent so I can have my constant up time of damage where as most will run out. With boundless defending resto I have 20k resistances and solid crit resist. I think that mitigation is important In no cp because of how small one 7k ward is. And I understand that's because I drop harness for dark deal but it means my sustainability never ends especially with serpent added.
How I see it is I could have 20% crit but I'd lose 5k resistances and my serpent mundus and that lessens my ability to survive by rolling. Taking hits. Converting for mag.
I play aggressively in bg's and tend to be in the thrall without my teammates most of the time. Unless ofc it's premade. Then we rotate as we see fit to help one another. But since I'll be between 3 of each team I prefer the suevivability since my damage is already solid with 3.3k spell and closely timed burst
This makes perfect sense, thanks for taking the time to answer. Basically its a playstyle thing, if you're yolo'ing into enemies then the mitigation from boundless is nice when the single shield inevitably goes down. Would you recommend more "traditional" ranged style sorc gameplay to utilize inner light+thief(shadow?) or do you think the extra mobility + mitigation is still of value when you're just there for ranged burst and negate on a pre-made group?cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »I'm in noCP all the time. The HA meta has a lot of people running with some extremely low crit rates. I run 2 shields and occasionally mutagen or a 3rd shield, depending on who I'm with. Low impen is a risk, but a lot less than in CP where crit chance is a lot higher
Well fitted doesn't give much benefit unless you have enough stam regen and stam pool, but once you do, it pairs very well with damage shields. 25% lower dodge roll cost is saving about 800 every roll. With immovable or tri-pots, even double rolls can be used.
Its people like this guy that make me shudder to think of dropping all that crit...
When I was using bsw lich shadow. I could get up close and personal in a 1vx and quickly burst people but it was much smoother picking targets from range before they reach you.0 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
My formula:
Percent cost reduction * average cost of abilities * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2 = equivalent effective regen
Or flat cost reduction * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2
I'd say 3k is an easily acceptable median. I know it will vary by builds, but with no other cost reducMalamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?
I know you directed that at Irylia but I have been running two reduction sets using thief and major prophecy in my build...based on that same premise. Just pugging BGs for now, the build has been fantastic in performance. I have gone probably 90% of my games with zero deaths and leading the scoreboard with kills.
It comes down to I wanted more space on my bars for boundless and to do this I dropped inner light. Because my crit chance then drops 20% I remove shadow for serpent so I can have my constant up time of damage where as most will run out. With boundless defending resto I have 20k resistances and solid crit resist. I think that mitigation is important In no cp because of how small one 7k ward is. And I understand that's because I drop harness for dark deal but it means my sustainability never ends especially with serpent added.
How I see it is I could have 20% crit but I'd lose 5k resistances and my serpent mundus and that lessens my ability to survive by rolling. Taking hits. Converting for mag.
I play aggressively in bg's and tend to be in the thrall without my teammates most of the time. Unless ofc it's premade. Then we rotate as we see fit to help one another. But since I'll be between 3 of each team I prefer the suevivability since my damage is already solid with 3.3k spell and closely timed burst
This makes perfect sense, thanks for taking the time to answer. Basically its a playstyle thing, if you're yolo'ing into enemies then the mitigation from boundless is nice when the single shield inevitably goes down. Would you recommend more "traditional" ranged style sorc gameplay to utilize inner light+thief(shadow?) or do you think the extra mobility + mitigation is still of value when you're just there for ranged burst and negate on a pre-made group?cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »I'm in noCP all the time. The HA meta has a lot of people running with some extremely low crit rates. I run 2 shields and occasionally mutagen or a 3rd shield, depending on who I'm with. Low impen is a risk, but a lot less than in CP where crit chance is a lot higher
Well fitted doesn't give much benefit unless you have enough stam regen and stam pool, but once you do, it pairs very well with damage shields. 25% lower dodge roll cost is saving about 800 every roll. With immovable or tri-pots, even double rolls can be used.
Its people like this guy that make me shudder to think of dropping all that crit...
I have to use hardened on my main bar. Playing on console there is a slight lag between bar switching. Therefore I can't run inner light. My main bar is frag, structured entropy, haunting curse, hardened ward, mage fury, dawn breaker (ps I dual wield). My back bar is harness mag, healing ward, mines, boundless storm, streak, resto ultimate. I think I can try to run thief with @Irylia 's setup and be okay. I've run with less sustain for real. I've though about dripping harness magicka for something. I'd what though lol
I play on console and don't see the need to front bar ward. Delay or no, I'm pretty comfortable bar swap canceling and getting my stack off. Especially on DW. Curse, fury, entropy, if no frag proc you just go back to resto bar and can re-stack.0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I always front bar ward. Weapon-swap just seems to be one of those things that can get really messed up when laggy, often leaving you on the the wrong bar.
This way, if I have hardened bound to 3 on the front bar, and harness bound to 3 on the back bar, then I KNOW that whatever the lag and whatever bar I have active, mashing 3 gives me a ward.
I can't change it (have tried a few times with single-ward builds). I've just built up to much muscle memory with it.
My problem is fitting in a spammable... I've always used high mag builds, often DW, making inner-light huge. Curse(backbar), frag, wrath were enough with that setup, but now with more sustain and much less mag, it feels like I need a spammable to keep up pressure.... I just can't figure out how to for it in without losing inner light...
Maybe if I dropped surge in favour of degeneration, I could drop magelight, but would empower much note often... That would free up a slot.... But losing that crit, and mag....... Its hard..Edited by Biro123 on May 27, 2017 9:14AMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
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Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
cschwingeb14_ESO✭✭✭✭NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
My formula:
Percent cost reduction * average cost of abilities * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2 = equivalent effective regen
Or flat cost reduction * average number of abilities cast per global cooldown * 2
I'd say 3k is an easily acceptable median. I know it will vary by builds, but with no other cost reducMalamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »does anyone have a generic formula how you can compare cost reduction percentage against regen? For instance, when you look at set bonuses how to determine at what point a cost reduction % becomes better than regen.
Look at alteration mastery Vs Amberplasm: 6% cost redux Versus 300 MR/SR
If you then pull your base cost of say Crushing Shock (which I THINK is 2400ish) the 6% means a savings of 144 magicka or 288 Magicka regen (if you are spamming 1 per second). Is this wrong?
I don't think that's exactly right, but its the general way the math works. Alteration mastery doesn't just decrease mag costs though, also decreases ulti, block, bash, and sprint.
@Irylia I've got two questions for you concerning no CP builds
I'm curious, in your opinon, doesn't running no CP, and therefore not having the ability to artificially increase your regen, increase the value of cost reduction?
And also, the way you're dropping so much crit for no CP goes against what most theorycrafters I have spoken to feel is the best way to build for no CP. For example, @NightbladeMechanics suggests running both thief and major prophecy for no CP. I'm aware that you have less native crit without CP, but why do you choose to ignore it rather than incorporating a strong burst option into your build?
I know you directed that at Irylia but I have been running two reduction sets using thief and major prophecy in my build...based on that same premise. Just pugging BGs for now, the build has been fantastic in performance. I have gone probably 90% of my games with zero deaths and leading the scoreboard with kills.
It comes down to I wanted more space on my bars for boundless and to do this I dropped inner light. Because my crit chance then drops 20% I remove shadow for serpent so I can have my constant up time of damage where as most will run out. With boundless defending resto I have 20k resistances and solid crit resist. I think that mitigation is important In no cp because of how small one 7k ward is. And I understand that's because I drop harness for dark deal but it means my sustainability never ends especially with serpent added.
How I see it is I could have 20% crit but I'd lose 5k resistances and my serpent mundus and that lessens my ability to survive by rolling. Taking hits. Converting for mag.
I play aggressively in bg's and tend to be in the thrall without my teammates most of the time. Unless ofc it's premade. Then we rotate as we see fit to help one another. But since I'll be between 3 of each team I prefer the suevivability since my damage is already solid with 3.3k spell and closely timed burst
This makes perfect sense, thanks for taking the time to answer. Basically its a playstyle thing, if you're yolo'ing into enemies then the mitigation from boundless is nice when the single shield inevitably goes down. Would you recommend more "traditional" ranged style sorc gameplay to utilize inner light+thief(shadow?) or do you think the extra mobility + mitigation is still of value when you're just there for ranged burst and negate on a pre-made group?cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »I'm in noCP all the time. The HA meta has a lot of people running with some extremely low crit rates. I run 2 shields and occasionally mutagen or a 3rd shield, depending on who I'm with. Low impen is a risk, but a lot less than in CP where crit chance is a lot higher
Well fitted doesn't give much benefit unless you have enough stam regen and stam pool, but once you do, it pairs very well with damage shields. 25% lower dodge roll cost is saving about 800 every roll. With immovable or tri-pots, even double rolls can be used.
Its people like this guy that make me shudder to think of dropping all that crit...
I have to use hardened on my main bar. Playing on console there is a slight lag between bar switching. Therefore I can't run inner light. My main bar is frag, structured entropy, haunting curse, hardened ward, mage fury, dawn breaker (ps I dual wield). My back bar is harness mag, healing ward, mines, boundless storm, streak, resto ultimate. I think I can try to run thief with @Irylia 's setup and be okay. I've run with less sustain for real. I've though about dripping harness magicka for something. I'd what though lol
You can safely back bar curse and put mage light on for the bigger hardened ward.
When I meet a new friend out in Cyro I'm usually going to be on the defending resto bar anyways. Open up with a heavy attack (e.g. some nasty poison), curse, then switch bars and light them up.
I'm pretty sure curse can't empower, so you don't need to degen/entropy first, and with the delay you can always swap/degen/frag/wrath with ani cancelling so the burst always lands together.
Very helpful. If I dropped harness I could for sure use curse on back bar. Inner light on front bar would be nice for the empowered frag/ mage fury/ dawn breaker combo. Honestly I love playing dual wield. It forces you to focus on burst rather than just just spam crushing shock.
Front bar ward, back bar curse means you get to keep your +20% stam/health regen on both bars. It's best to have them on opposite bars. In this setup it's worth over 200 stam regen1