The topic of animation cancelling got closed by zos years ago.
Can we please just let it go?

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@DarkAedin

Yes, primarily due to animation gripes, but also because the game actually considers them weapons abilities themselves. It's why you can proc red mountain and enchantments with light and heavy weapon attacks, since they're classified as weapon abilities, but for whatever reason they don't share the weapon ability cooldowns.

So ur saying the problem isnt the way the combat works, but that zos made the terrible decision to add dmg proc sets into the game to help plebs? Ya. I agree. Remove all these sets so we can back to a player skill based game.

#bringbacksoftcaps
#bringback1.5

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@DarkAedin

No, it's more the issue that they're all about consistency now, but for whatever reason are not going to be consistent with what they actually consider abilities. their combat isn't consistent.

If basic attacks were a flat damage bonus that never scaled with anything (like passives) hell, they could leave this kind of animation cancelling in. Be stupid in my opinion, why not just raise the floor on abilities. But since they do scale, at the very least it creates a balancing issue, more notable on proc sets for sure.

Dude. This game has animation cancelling. Period. Its one of the few out there that does. If u dont like it go play wow or swtor, or any of the other mmos that use the combat ur talking about. Eso has a different type of combat which is the only thing that makes it stand above the rest in others players eyes like myself. L2p is ur issue.

Yffre be praised! A new subject worthy of the horse beating gif!

Help me out here people, I'm on mobile.

Incoming 3…2…1

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@DarkAedin

Dude, if Dark Souls was an MMO I'd be all over it. But it isn't, just some minor online combat.

This is the only mmo on the market atm with half decent animation cancelling. Esp since they fubard dcuo. It irritates me that ppl are against it. If eso didnt have animation cancelling i wouldnt play. Id rather games without all these game breaking bugs and devs who seem to know wtf they doing.
U wanna gripe about something? Thers tons of issues in eso even before having to deal with upcoming patch change.

Imballanced classes
Imballanced abilities
Imballance of pvp/pve
Worst tutorial ever
Lfg tool
Useless abilities since day 1
Duping bug
Cyro lag
Gap closers
Mount glitches
Load screens

And thats just off the top of my head before getting specific.
Animation cancelling is the least of ur issues

@DarkAedin

I just want to make sure, when you mean animation cancelling, do you mean being able to cancel attack animation in order to block/rolldodge out of harms way regardless of what point of an attack you're in? Or are you referring to animation cancelling a specific subset of attacks in order to mask your own attacks, attack while you're blocking and adding 'invisible' attacks? I get that there are class, and ability balance issues, and I'm not saying that those shouldn't be conversed upon and brought up, but the balance of classes and abilities would have to be changed if base combat rotations were edited.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Yes, @Nifty2g did indeed mention that all abilities have different animation lengths, but doesn't this enforce the idea that their combat system is inconsistent? Why is a shorter animation on the same cooldown as a longer animation?

@Royaji

Cast time abilities and Channeled abilities are one and the same. One just does continual damage over the channel duration while the other deals damage at the end of it, their animation is actually tied to what damage you deal even now. For example skills like Rapid fire or Flurry. These are both Channeled abilities. If at any point in time you block during their ability animation, you cancel the next damage tick and subsequent damage of that ability. Much like with Cast time abilities, if you perform an action that overwrites the cast time, damage is not dealt. So for instance accidentally pressing block once after using the Rapid Fire ult wastes that entire ability. Blocking after dealing one tick of damage with flurry consumes the full stamina amount, but you deal less damage because those additional hits never register. Why is this unique to only channeled and cast time abilities? Why must channeled and cast time abilities have the shortcoming that instant cast abilities don't, in that you can blockcast and the like Instant cast abilities while still dealing full damage whereas channeled abilities deal relatively comparable damage, but when blocking you prevent damage from occuring, while still eating the entire ability cost if at least one tick registered? Why can I spam the ever living shite out of surprise attack while holding block permanently? But can't do the same with other "spammable" skills such as Flurry,Uppercut,Snipe simply because they're channeled?

Edit: such as with rapid fire, you can completely lose ultimate if you press r and then block, dealing 0 damage but using up all of your ultimate. but with an instant cast ultimate such as wrecking blow, you can use that ability and block at the same time.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Fine, then respond to the later portion of my previous post:

"Cast time abilities and Channeled abilities are one and the same. One just does continual damage over the channel duration while the other deals damage at the end of it, their animation is actually tied to what damage you deal even now. For example skills like Rapid fire or Flurry. These are both Channeled abilities. If at any point in time you block during their ability animation, you cancel the next damage tick and subsequent damage of that ability. Much like with Cast time abilities, if you perform an action that overwrites the cast time, damage is not dealt. So for instance accidentally pressing block once after using the Rapid Fire ult wastes that entire ability. Blocking after dealing one tick of damage with flurry consumes the full stamina amount, but you deal less damage because those additional hits never register. Why is this unique to only channeled and cast time abilities? Why must channeled and cast time abilities have the shortcoming that instant cast abilities don't, in that you can blockcast and the like Instant cast abilities while still dealing full damage whereas channeled abilities deal relatively comparable damage, but when blocking you prevent damage from occuring, while still eating the entire ability cost if at least one tick registered? Why can I spam the ever living shite out of surprise attack while holding block permanently? But can't do the same with other "spammable" skills such as Flurry,Uppercut,Snipe simply because they're channeled?"

Instant Cast abilities are not actually instant cast. Take a look at surprise attack, Killer's blade, Force Shock. They all have small animations that play out before you actually deal any kind of damage. These "Instant" cast abilities all come with a small delay prior to actually dealing their damage because of their animations. Why don't instant cast abilities actually do what they say they do, and deal the damage instantaneously rather than having an animation window before they apply their damage? If they were actually "Instant", then I'd understand why "Instant" cast abilities cannot be block cancelled and why they can be cast while blocking. But seeing as they do indeed have a window between their cast, and when they actually apply damage, why are you able to block during this animation time, but you can't block during cast-time abilities animation time, where they are still in the animation, but have yet to deal any damage? Why can't I block cancel my Instant cast ability prior to the damage being dealt, so i stop using the resources for that attack, as well as stopping an unintended instant from being performed? I can do that with cast-time abilities, and both cast-time and instant cast abilities have an animation prior to them dealing damage.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

The previous threads were about LA and HA animation cancelling, this thread is about both that as well as block casting... which is what I'm talking about in my previous comment to you. Once block casting is debated then I'll move onto LA animation casting.

To reiterate my view on block casting:

All instant cast abilities have a short cast time before they deal damage. this is related to their attack animation. However, if the player blocks during this cast time, before it's completed, the abilities still do damage.

Then, let's take a look at abilities that have a cast time associated with them. These abilities have a cast time that is longer, but with these abilities you can actually block during their attack animation to stop damage from occurring, even if their cast time is the same as the GCD of abilities, such as with flurry.

Why can't I block cancel instant attack abilities during their cast time? Why can't I cancel Instant cast abilities? They still have a cast time, even though they're supposed to be "instant".

And on the other side, why can't I use channeled abilities while blocking? Since Instant cast abilities still have a cast time that can be used while blocking, why can't abilities with a longer cast time also be performed while blocking?

So I propose to have a general ability structure that all abilities will use. I suggest to either convert all abilities to the instant cast (block cast) method, or to have them all act as if they are all channeled (block cancel). I would prefer to be able to cancel my abilities if I so choose.

I guess one question I would ask you is: why are you unable to block cast uppercut, why isn't it an instant cast ability?

We will get to LA weaving and what not, let's first take this a step at a time.

@FearlessOne_2014

Yeah, whining will get me nowhere, which is why i changed tactic to argue the inconsistencies of instant v. cast time abilities to show that they're inconsistent with how such abilities are described (instant still having a cast time prior to damage application but you're unable to cancel these attacks, versus cast time abilities being allowed to cancel during their cast time). In effect to either revamp how cast time abilities work with block (such that you can now block during cast time abilities while still dealing damage), or bring to light that the combat flow is inconsistent and allow instant cast abilities to also be canceled during their cast time animation.

If cast time becomes able to be Block Cast, then I'd have no ground to stand on. But if you're able to Block Cancel instant cast abilities during their unmentioned cast time, I'd continue.

From this point, if instant cast abilities are allowed to Block cancel the same way that channeled attacks are allowed to (blocking/rolldodge during the cast time to stop the ability from actually firing), it'd be a matter of having to argue that light attacks having to be weaved between everything already makes them a weapon class spammable that needs to be performed and:
I really would love to see light attacks cost stamina, but be buffed such they become the spammable attack for each weapon. Since they're already required to be woven (Spammed) in between every ability, why not make them the spammable ability for that weapon? Have the accompanying skills be accents on how you apply your damage, that add utility or another way to apply damage. Take DW for example. if light attacks were the main spammable, you could either use those for a direct damage oriented build or use flurry for a DoT proc build.

And if that ever gained traction to then argue that they should take up the same GCD space as weapon abilities.

But unfortunately my initial arguments have been much too vague as I've been trying to flesh out the idea while also posting on the forum, leading to a lack of a good initial argument. Not to mention posting in such a short time between one another causing confusion/annoyance. So, I'll have to wait, and post later after consolidating what I've learned. Probably separate the argument into two different fronts:

Bring up the inconsistencies with the cast times present in Instant Cast abilities.

Argue that Light attacks are already woven between every ability so perhaps they should become the main spammable ability for each weapon. Allowing weapon abilities to further diversify how you deal damage with those weapons. For example: if you want to build a DW direct damage rotation that doesn't use Surprise attack as the spammable (pigeonholing DW Direct Damage builds to the nightblade) , you could use the light attacks. But if you wanted to branch out to a fast, DoT oriented build for proc sets, you'd use flurry. Essentially allowing each weapon to have more than one approach. Which, in my opinion, would be good for the game.

@leepalmer95

While yes, they do offer additional utility, I don't believe they offer enough, this is why:

All cast time abilities: Uppercut/Snipe can be interrupted with Bash/Crushing Shock/Venom Arrow, cancelling the attack and stunning the user. Using any defensive measure cancels the ability making it deal no damage.

Uppercut - Wrecking Blow Deals high damage, and grants Empower, but because of the empower, if you weave it empowers the LA. making it sub par in PvE because you lose out on some damage. Because it's a 1.0 sec GCD for it to actually do damage, instant cast abilities who take 0.6 seconds to refresh from the GCD are dealing more damage anyway (and they can also weave in-between). In PvP this skill is easily telegraphed with it's 1.0 sec cast time and it can also be bashed to stun the user (or venom arrow/crushing shock). While you can cancel them via block/rolldodge, an instant cast ability would have already dealt the damage and also allow you to block while dealing said damage (preventing stuns and the like). Using this ability means you've also got a 2H equipped, and thus cannot 5/5/2 sets. These cast-time abilities are not undodgeable.
Dizzying swing knockbacks and stuns the enemy, but against a competent player or one using immovability pots it becomes weaker than wrecking blow.

Snipe - Also slow with 1.0 sec cast time, meaning weaving will make instant cast abilities out perform this all the time in PvE, since Bow doesn't have a reliable spammable attack, it's also why it's generally more of a backbar weapon, since to be viable front bar in end-game content it requires a very specific build. In PvP though it performs nicely because it's long range with a slow projectile that can be used with crit rush to deal massive burst damage from stealth. It really isn't used in fights where the enemy can just crit rush/shield charge up to you though. You also have a bow equipped, and thus cannot 5/5/2 sets. This ability is not undodgeable (even though the wardens cliff racer ability is...)

Flurry - Since the channel time was reduced to 0.6 seconds from 1.0 seconds (because it wasn't dealing enough damage, and people were complaining) It's actually made it a viable alternative (note that that is only when it was reduced to a channel time equal to the GCD value) in PvE. It is surpassed by Surprise attack until the player obtains the maelstrom daggers/axe. Since the damage is back loaded if you have to block or rolldodge prior to the channel finishing (the final +300% hit), you will always deal less damage on an ability that deals only a small amount more damage than an instant cast Surprise attack if you're playing defensive. Overall, at least with the reduction in channel duration it's much better than the 2H Bow cast time abilities, as well as allowing 5/5/2 sets. This channel is not undodgeable like the Templars Jabs. But in the end with the channel time reduced to 0.6 seconds it's actually in a good spot. It also cannot be interrupted (though no one uses it in current PvP, they may use it in battlegrounds).

Force Shock - Instant cast, ranged, deals little damage, hits three times with direct damage making it useful for proc builds in PvP. Crushing shock morph stuns and interrupts players using cast time abilities (Uppercut/Snipe) (but not channeled abilities like flurry for whatever reason) making this a hard counter to them that can also fire in less than one second. can be used while blocking so even if you miss an uppercut/snipe you can prevent negative effects on you if you block when it's coming. (or just hold block, or rolldodge. since snipe and uppercut are not undodgeable).


So, how do these compare to the instant cast spammable class abilities which can also be performed while blocking?

All Instant cast abilities can be cast while blocking, allowing the player to deal damage while reducing incoming damage and negating any negative secondary effects like stuns/snares/roots/knockbacks. They're also much more efficient at light attack weaving with the generic 0.6 GCD
Edit: I should also note that if you're a good enough anim canceler you can LA+insta-abil+shield bash, rendering any cast-time ability effectively useless against you while dealing nearly the same amount of damage (only applicable to melee in melee range)

DK Instant spammable: Flame Lash - deals more damage to off-balance enemies, stuns them, and heals you. a nice situational 3 in one combo that can't be interrupted. Usually paired with executioner to spam that instant cast execute on low hp opponents.
NB Instant spammable: Surprise attack: Deals high damage, is Direct Damage, Applies Major Fracture/Major Breech, and passives grant the user Major Ward and Major Resolve as well as increasing your Max HP by 3% while slotted.
Sorc Instant spammables: Crushing Shock and Crystal Frags: Crushing shock is spammed to prevent targets from using abilities such as snipe/uppercut while also allowing C Frags to proc it's passive, giving them a high damage instant cast ability + stun while also preventing the opponent from using such abilities as snipe or uppercut.
Templar spammable: Jabs: While this is a channel, it has the bonus of being undodgeable, AoE, reducing enemy movespeed at the end, has a 25% chance at dealing additional damage from burning light, while slotted increases your critical damage. It's stamina morph grants Major Savagery when used and it's magicka morph heals your based on the amount of damage done.

In my opinion, even though cast time abilities have somewhat of a bonus, they are nowhere near as effective as instant cast abilities provided by each class. So I would either give them the same treatment as flurry (reducing the cast time to 0.6 seconds) to make them more viable in PvE (though then damage would need to be adjusted for PvP), or to make them able to block cast for better use in PvP (and maybe maelstrom arena).

That or make the light attacks of weapons the spammables for that weapon (Increase LA damage significantly and have it cost stamina), and have the abilities be the extra flair.