To be honest I almost don't care if the skill is nerfed. Because it is honestly not as good as people make it out to be. I only slot it to remove snares these days, and the passive dodge is nice occasionally.
But in a whole night of pvp I can count on a single hand the times it actually saves me. The dodge chance is really not that strong.

Problem is how it works. It would be ok when it just miss one attack, but when shuffel prock it makes a small doggeroll window were evry attack miss.

Saint_Bud wrote: »

Problem is how it works. It would be ok when it just miss one attack, but when shuffel prock it makes a small doggeroll window were evry attack miss.

That is untrue. There is no evidence supporting that. What is better, there is simple way to disprove it just by pulling large amount of mobs in some dungeon. It would be so godlike OP skill if it worked that way (at least for solo pve)

It would be a great change if shuffle no longer gave a dodge chance but instead prevented being immobilized, (stunned?) or slowed for the duration. I HATE the RNG... it's so stupid and removes skill from the game.

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Please just stop. I'm starting to get annoyed with this one.

Make armor skills available to those wearing 5 or more of their respective armor lines and we are fine. Nerfing it more is just rediculous.

Medium would still suck.Not fixing the issue with how bad medium is.Magic build will still use heavy not many use shields.

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Saint_Bud wrote: »

Problem is how it works. It would be ok when it just miss one attack, but when shuffel prock it makes a small doggeroll window were evry attack miss.

That is untrue. There is no avidence supporting that. What is better, there is simple way to disprove it just by pulling large amount of mobs in some dungeon. It would be so godlike OP skill if it worked that way (at least for solo pve)

The skill is fine for pve and a 1v1 scenario. The power comes in an outnumbert scenario. When shuffel prock and only one skill miss, it will be ok, but atm all skills will miss. For pve tanks or solo pve that doesnt matter, because you will not get hit that often. ( and for pve tanks, there are no reason to run this skill)

Saint_Bud wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Saint_Bud wrote: »

Problem is how it works. It would be ok when it just miss one attack, but when shuffel prock it makes a small doggeroll window were evry attack miss.

That is untrue. There is no avidence supporting that. What is better, there is simple way to disprove it just by pulling large amount of mobs in some dungeon. It would be so godlike OP skill if it worked that way (at least for solo pve)

The skill is fine for pve and a 1v1 scenario. The power comes in an outnumbert scenario. When shuffel prock and only one skill miss, it will be ok, but atm all skills will miss. For pve tanks or solo pve that doesnt matter, because you will not get hit that often. ( and for pve tanks, there are no reason to run this skill)

I dont think you understand. That is not true. When shuffle procs only one skill misses. That one that proc it.

Put its base dodge chance to 10% and add 1% for every medium armor piece.

For medium armor (which are very squishy, it's a slight buff as its a medium armor skills)

For heavy it's a nerf.

Sorted.

It needs to be relegated to being a medium armor only skill with a 5 piece requirement to activate. If it only gave a 15% chance for a single hit to miss then it would be alright but every time it proc's every hit missing for several seconds is just too much free damage reduction for someone that's already in heavy armor.

Magıc wrote: »

Dracindo wrote: »

Another nerf on that? Why not just scrap Nightblades, then? They don't have alot of shields like sorcs, they can't tank like dragonknights, and they have terrible self-heal in comparisson to Templars. The 15% dodge chance isn't even a guaranteed thing like the main skills the other classes use.

Shields? Cast it, get it.
Resistance buff? Cast it, get it.
Heal? Cast it, get it or get it over time.
Dodge chance? Cast it, pray to RNGesus that the 15% hits with every incoming attack.

Dodge roll, cloak ,shade = 3 most OP abilities in a non Heavy armour meta which is upcoming.

Cloak doesn't work,shade needs a target to be cast.Helpful hint if you stand on the shade he can't teleport to it.

Ok guys im about to bust some knowledge.

A few things about medium armor builds that are too strong.

A: there is a hidden passive dodge chance in all armor types, with medium armor taking the largest passive dodge chance. (Not even using shuffle) im not sure exactly what it is, but if you put on on medium armor and no shuffle go into pve and pull a couple mobs, you see your med toon do it WAY more than a light armor build.

B: the above base dodge chance stacks with shuffle to give infact much more than 15% from shuffle.

C: active dodge roll is the best mitigation in game, it DOES have counters, but is extremely effective on its own. Even without shuffle.

self healing for stamina toons is extremely strong. Vigor, stacked with two handed heal is very potent, just cast vigor and cast two handed heal and your up. There are also other ways for stamina toons to get even more healing, though twin slashes, flurry, draining shot, absorb magick.

All of these things on their own are not that great or unbalanced but couple all of these things together and you have a set up that will absolutely wipe the floor with any magbuild except magsorc and magblade (if they manage to cloak away from your godliness).

Vigor was never meant to be THE heal for stamina solo, it was meant to be a way to encourage raids to allow stamina toons into the pvp raids. They didnt offer anything but steel tornado and caltrops for a VERY long time, they added vigor as a way for them to give a potent hot to the raid.

Now i personally really enjoy the dodge roll mechanic on stamina toons, it feels exactly like what they are supposed to be doing for defense.
So heres what i would do to balance stamina toons

A: change vigor to only heal allies for a larger amount than live, help them have a role in raids, which they still struggle with. (Most raids carry mag users for their better utility and ults).

B: restrict shuffle to ONLY those with 5 medium armor,

C: buff shuffle to 30%

remove passive dodge mechanics that are hidden from the players. The baseline passive dodge chance that all armors have? Yeah remove it...hence the buff to shuffle

E: flatten the cost for dodge roll and drastically reduce the cost more across the board, i mean no more increasing cost the more you roll.

F: this one is iffy, i dont know if it will need to happen. Remove the burst heal from two hander

G: iffy as well, increase the HOT from two handed skill by maybe 50-100%?

H: go over many abilities that go through dodge, many may be too powerfull this time around after all the changes.

Theres a few reasons all these changes are needed. Magick build (save magsorc...) are weak (the light armored ones not the heavy armored mag builds...they dont count XD)compared to stamina, weak in defense mainly, they still have comparable damage to stamina (much better ult damage). You dont see many non healer light armored magbuilds running around small team, they just arent good at it, cause they are too squish. Its why most farm groups run stamina builds and a mag healer. We need to buff the raid effectiveness of stamina toons while makeing their personal defense more based on the dodge mechanic.


I once played a stam sorc medium armor build, i had a light armor magplar with a focus on range and dark flare. Ill tell you, i hit him with purifying light, unstable core, missed the dark flare and landed the javelin, and hit him with soul assault which he blocked the full amount, he was at ~30% health, he cast vigor and two hander and boom...full health, he charged me, stunned me dotted me and boom...through 8k shield and full impen light armor with 25k health, i was dead.

Dont have a problem with the dead part but that he was able to heal up, dodge all incomming projectiles and i couldnt do a thing...

My point is that stamina needs to go back to its roots, just a buffed form of roots than before. It should take a stamina toon awhile to heal up, they are supposed to dodge incomming attacks, and currently the game DISCOURAGES ACTIVE DODGE ROLLING...which doesnt make sense really. Its supposed to be their main form of defense...and not its not, somehow weve allowed our physical specs to be able to heal like a magplar, when they still have their awesome dodge mechanics...

Wow that was a lot thanks for listening

I think when players bring up issues with evasion its often because they misunderstand that when you dodge you dodge everything for the animation period of the dodge.

For example, someone spamming abilitys at someone dodging may think evasion is broken but in reality they are immune for a brief period. 100 people could target someone and the player will still dodge everything within that animation period.

Also evasion gets a bad rep because of roll dodge used in tandum. Roll dodge does the same thing but can be used by the player when he knows incomming damage is on the way (which is more skill based then rng).


To fix this issue shuffle should be for 5 medium users only. Then nightblades will have the niche for light/heavy users dodge chance with doubletake/mirage.

Baconlad wrote: »

Ok guys im about to bust some knowledge.

A few things about medium armor builds that are too strong.

A: there is a hidden passive dodge chance in all armor types, with medium armor taking the largest passive dodge chance. (Not even using shuffle) im not sure exactly what it is, but if you put on on medium armor and no shuffle go into pve and pull a couple mobs, you see your med toon do it WAY more than a light armor build.

B: the above base dodge chance stacks with shuffle to give infact much more than 15% from shuffle.

C: active dodge roll is the best mitigation in game, it DOES have counters, but is extremely effective on its own. Even without shuffle.

self healing for stamina toons is extremely strong. Vigor, stacked with two handed heal is very potent, just cast vigor and cast two handed heal and your up. There are also other ways for stamina toons to get even more healing, though twin slashes, flurry, draining shot, absorb magick.

All of these things on their own are not that great or unbalanced but couple all of these things together and you have a set up that will absolutely wipe the floor with any magbuild except magsorc and magblade (if they manage to cloak away from your godliness).

Vigor was never meant to be THE heal for stamina solo, it was meant to be a way to encourage raids to allow stamina toons into the pvp raids. They didnt offer anything but steel tornado and caltrops for a VERY long time, they added vigor as a way for them to give a potent hot to the raid.

Now i personally really enjoy the dodge roll mechanic on stamina toons, it feels exactly like what they are supposed to be doing for defense.
So heres what i would do to balance stamina toons

A: change vigor to only heal allies for a larger amount than live, help them have a role in raids, which they still struggle with. (Most raids carry mag users for their better utility and ults).

B: restrict shuffle to ONLY those with 5 medium armor,

C: buff shuffle to 30%

remove passive dodge mechanics that are hidden from the players. The baseline passive dodge chance that all armors have? Yeah remove it...hence the buff to shuffle

E: flatten the cost for dodge roll and drastically reduce the cost more across the board, i mean no more increasing cost the more you roll.

F: this one is iffy, i dont know if it will need to happen. Remove the burst heal from two hander

G: iffy as well, increase the HOT from two handed skill by maybe 50-100%?

H: go over many abilities that go through dodge, many may be too powerfull this time around after all the changes.

Theres a few reasons all these changes are needed. Magick build (save magsorc...) are weak (the light armored ones not the heavy armored mag builds...they dont count XD)compared to stamina, weak in defense mainly, they still have comparable damage to stamina (much better ult damage). You dont see many non healer light armored magbuilds running around small team, they just arent good at it, cause they are too squish. Its why most farm groups run stamina builds and a mag healer. We need to buff the raid effectiveness of stamina toons while makeing their personal defense more based on the dodge mechanic.


I once played a stam sorc medium armor build, i had a light armor magplar with a focus on range and dark flare. Ill tell you, i hit him with purifying light, unstable core, missed the dark flare and landed the javelin, and hit him with soul assault which he blocked the full amount, he was at ~30% health, he cast vigor and two hander and boom...full health, he charged me, stunned me dotted me and boom...through 8k shield and full impen light armor with 25k health, i was dead.

Dont have a problem with the dead part but that he was able to heal up, dodge all incomming projectiles and i couldnt do a thing...

My point is that stamina needs to go back to its roots, just a buffed form of roots than before. It should take a stamina toon awhile to heal up, they are supposed to dodge incomming attacks, and currently the game DISCOURAGES ACTIVE DODGE ROLLING...which doesnt make sense really. Its supposed to be their main form of defense...and not its not, somehow weve allowed our physical specs to be able to heal like a magplar, when they still have their awesome dodge mechanics...

Wow that was a lot thanks for listening

Really... that post triggers me. I have with alchemist proc a laughable tooltip on vigor of 4k once Major Defile is on me and you talk about that the defense is too strong? I'll tell you something, we change Harness/Dampen Magicka back, so that it only works against magicka damage, let shields scale with less max magicka and more spelldamage instead (bye bye max magicka builds who trade all their spelldamage for regen) and make Major Defile reducing shield strength. Afterwards I go to the forum and tell you how overpowered shields are, sounds cool eh? Just take a look at duels, barely nobody uses medium armor at all because it's by far the weakest (basically only nightblades can make use of it and even on a nightblade heavy is just better in most cases, period).

Saying that dodgeroll is a defense mechanic for medium armor builds is a joke. Medium armor builds can roll much because they run 2.6k+ stamina regen and not because of medium armor. Every build can roll a lot if they invest a lot into stamina regen, in fact I can roll six times in a row with a medium armor build and I can also roll six times in a row on a heavy armor build (which had even a bit less stamina regen than the medium armor build) and so can light armor builds if they have enough regen and stamina. So what does medium armor have? Basically nothing. My rating for builds right now is light armor > heavy armor > medium armor. Using shields as defense is totally easymode once you reach a certain of max magicka. Without playing a class that can make use of Necropotence I would probably rate heavy armor over light armor.