unforeseen consequences of light/heavy attack changes

BigES · May 2017

Koensol wrote: »

Im willing to bet that when ZOS implemented these things, it was probably not even an intended thing. It is just weird that a new player somehow has to find out that dw gives better stats than staff on his magicka templar. It is just weird and illogical design, which (again) was probably not even intended. To me (my opinion, you don't have to agree) this is very dumb.

I agree with you it was probably not intended... but ZoS has acknowledged on several occasions both during ESO live and in patches that it was intentional. Its also why they rewrote some of the dual wield passive language to be a little more explicit about.

I also agree its no intuitive to new players, a comment that was made earlier.

But regardless of it being intentional it exists. Its part of the game and the game has developed around it. People have farmed multiple sharpened swords from different sets to use in their dual wield magicka setup. It's my opinion the game needs to be continued to be balanced around having dual wielding as an option for magicka classes.

akray21 · May 2017

I was going to make a thread about melee magicka builds after this change. I played melee magicka NB for a very long time in PvP. I have since switched to magicka melee Templar. Both of these builds are essentially DEAD. This is the last straw for me...

Xvorg · May 2017

Marto wrote: »

Dual Wield meta was a dumb idea to begin with. It's not intuitive to new players, it doesn't make sense thematically, it looks rather odd, and gives you almost zero synergy with Dual Wield passives/actives (Besides the Twin blade and blunt passive).

There's no real reason why it should exist. It doesn't fit with the overall design of magicka builds.

except for blade cloak IMHO

Xvorg · May 2017

Narvuntien wrote: »

I have to use dw on my MagDK. I lose way too much damage not using monster sets. Seducers doesn't do anything without the 5 piece bonus.

Also I only have BSW 1h weapons and grinding for exactly a sharpened inferno staff will probably cause me to quit the game in frustration at RNG.

Notably without the BSW buff on, my WD is almost as high as my SD so I am not actually sure I am losing that much damage from light attacking with swords, plus fire enchants on them giving the chance to trigger the BSW.

Switching to silks of the sun due to BSW nerfs would put me in an even worse position.

DW on a magDK is giving you nothing except some extra stats. S/B or even 2H are way better and give you the option of a reliable gap closer. In the case on 2H you also get some extra dmg on greatswords

Benn G x · May 2017

I use DW magsorc, this change ain't going to stop me either. I sustain just fine, it's actually a buff as far as I'm concerned, my light attacks do a little more damage, and heavy attacks will replenish a nice amount of Stam to CC break ect.

This forum is the definition of over exaggerating changes

akray21 · May 2017

People saying melee/magicka doesn't make thematic sense have obviously not played another scrolls game. If they are taking away the option of dual wield from magicka builds, they need to properly implement a one-hand/spell skill line (before they kill dual wield magicka).

usmcjdking · May 2017

So 2H has the slowest HA animation now.

Makes sense.

Weps · May 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

DW on a magDK is giving you nothing except some extra stats. S/B or even 2H are way better and give you the option of a reliable gap closer. In the case on 2H you also get some extra dmg on greatswords

I don't fully agree there.
They give you more spell damage then S&B, and through the Ruffian and Twin Blade and Blunt passives they will increase your damage exponentially.

Supposedly you shouldn't have to gap close anyone, it's a "stand your ground" class

.
If only that was true.

Xvorg · May 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

So 2H has the slowest HA animation now.

Makes sense.

But the buff it gives is worth the slow animation

BigES · May 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

I use DW magsorc, this change ain't going to stop me either. I sustain just fine, it's actually a buff as far as I'm concerned, my light attacks do a little more damage, and heavy attacks will replenish a nice amount of Stam to CC break ect.

This forum is the definition of over exaggerating changes

Can you explain further on why you believe it is a buff? I'd be curious to know your credentials on a mag sorc. I have an emperor, flawless mag sorc who has been dual wield, staff, and pet built on a number of occasions. Dual wielding on a mag sorc in PvP is all but dead, and with the resource nerfs, the hit is even harder. Not even mentioning the new light/heavy attack changes that further incentivize using a staff.

In live, DW really only makes sense on MDK and MTemplar. There are a few MSorcs who make dual wielding work in 1v1's, and even that's a rare thing these days. My big concern is that both Mtemplar and MDK dual wield builds are about to also become extinct.

DDuke · May 2017

Weps wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DW on a magDK is giving you nothing except some extra stats. S/B or even 2H are way better and give you the option of a reliable gap closer. In the case on 2H you also get some extra dmg on greatswords

I don't fully agree there.
They give you more spell damage then S&B, and through the Ruffian and Twin Blade and Blunt passives they will increase your damage exponentially.

Supposedly you shouldn't have to gap close anyone, it's a "stand your ground" class .
If only that was true.

I'm fairly sure Ruffian only applies to the DW skills.

BigES · May 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DW on a magDK is giving you nothing except some extra stats. S/B or even 2H are way better and give you the option of a reliable gap closer. In the case on 2H you also get some extra dmg on greatswords

I don't fully agree there.
They give you more spell damage then S&B, and through the Ruffian and Twin Blade and Blunt passives they will increase your damage exponentially.

Supposedly you shouldn't have to gap close anyone, it's a "stand your ground" class .
If only that was true.

I'm fairly sure Ruffian only applies to the DW skills.

Correct.

Weps · May 2017

To my knowledge, it doesn't.
It shouldn't since it doesn't say "While dual wielding".

The same way Twin Blade and Blunt doesn't apply only when you actually use your DW skills but to your overrall damage.

BigES · May 2017

Weps wrote: »

To my knowledge, it doesn't.
It shouldn't since it doesn't say "While dual wielding".

The same way Twin Blade and Blunt doesn't apply only when you actually use your DW skills but to your overrall damage.

I'm 100% certain that Twin Blade and Blunt is the only passive that benefits Magicka dual wield. You're welcome to test yourself.

Dual Wield Expert (used to be very poorly worded - still is kinda bad actually) used to passively increase spell damage (by increasing the base value given by the offhand - just like the bump you get from holding the weapons), but was later patched to only affect Weapon Damage.

Uriel_Nocturne · May 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZoS is homogenizing everything.

I know, right?

Even in the most recent "ESO Live", those two tools sat there and said: "We don't want it to seem like we're homogenizing all the Classes..." yet, that's EXACTLY what they're doing with these Morrowind Update changes.

I don't care that they SAY they "don't want to homogenize the Classes", if that's what their changes are doing, then that is what's happening.

And that's definitely what's happening.

ZOS is pidgeon-holing everyone into playing each Class in a very certain way/manner. If you try to think/play "outside the box", then you'll find that you can't really do anything as your abilities/effectiveness/resources will plummet as if they'd fallen off of a cliff...

"We don't want it to seem like we're homogenizing the Classes..." Pfft. Whatever. IF you don't want it to seem that way, THEN DON'T FREAKIN' DO IT!!! REVERT DAMN NEAR ALL OF THESE CHANGES!!!

MarriedWithChildren · May 2017

runa_gate wrote: »

I think the issue is being able to use 5/5/2 sets, not whether it makes sense to carry around swords as a magicka-user.

This right here

DragonBound · May 2017

akray21 wrote: »

People saying melee/magicka doesn't make thematic sense have obviously not played another scrolls game. If they are taking away the option of dual wield from magicka builds, they need to properly implement a one-hand/spell skill line (before they kill dual wield magicka).

Or any single player rpg or any other mmorpg in general, not to mention a major lack of imagination.

DragonBound · May 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

So 2H has the slowest HA animation now.

Makes sense.

It actually does aesthetically.

necronomniconb14_ESO · May 2017

This post will be a buff if you agree that you should play FF 14: Stormblood
This post will be a nerf if you agree that you should slug through Morrowind

Benn G x · May 2017

BigES wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

I use DW magsorc, this change ain't going to stop me either. I sustain just fine, it's actually a buff as far as I'm concerned, my light attacks do a little more damage, and heavy attacks will replenish a nice amount of Stam to CC break ect.

This forum is the definition of over exaggerating changes

Can you explain further on why you believe it is a buff? I'd be curious to know your credentials on a mag sorc. I have an emperor, flawless mag sorc who has been dual wield, staff, and pet built on a number of occasions. Dual wielding on a mag sorc in PvP is all but dead, and with the resource nerfs, the hit is even harder. Not even mentioning the new light/heavy attack changes that further incentivize using a staff.

In live, DW really only makes sense on MDK and MTemplar. There are a few MSorcs who make dual wielding work in 1v1's, and even that's a rare thing these days. My big concern is that both Mtemplar and MDK dual wield builds are about to also become extinct.

Well it is if you use DW imo, 15% more damage to your pathetic light attacks with swords ain't nothing special, but it's better, the extra resources from a heavy will be greatly welcomed though, magsorcs always get killed from running out of stam.

and as for credentials lol, trust me I know this class inside out, but there are actually a hell of a lot of DW sorcs lately.

Vajrak · May 2017

DW weaving has been weaker than Staff weaving for quite some time now -- that hasn't stopped people from using it. 5/5/2 is on nearly par from set bonuses -- that's really not such a huge deal as people make it out to be. It's about trades in the end -- using a staff, you can run a bit more mag damage and get resource return via heavy attacks, using DW you get higher mag damage, so run a bit more recovery or cost reduction (depending which fits you better overall) -- i like the "weapon" look better on my templars -- so I just use staves that look like spears :P

Xvorg · May 2017

Weps wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DW on a magDK is giving you nothing except some extra stats. S/B or even 2H are way better and give you the option of a reliable gap closer. In the case on 2H you also get some extra dmg on greatswords

I don't fully agree there.
They give you more spell damage then S&B, and through the Ruffian and Twin Blade and Blunt passives they will increase your damage exponentially.

Supposedly you shouldn't have to gap close anyone, it's a "stand your ground" class .
If only that was true.

Ruffian only works on DW skills so only twin blade and blunt.

see:

Weps · May 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DW on a magDK is giving you nothing except some extra stats. S/B or even 2H are way better and give you the option of a reliable gap closer. In the case on 2H you also get some extra dmg on greatswords

I don't fully agree there.
They give you more spell damage then S&B, and through the Ruffian and Twin Blade and Blunt passives they will increase your damage exponentially.

Supposedly you shouldn't have to gap close anyone, it's a "stand your ground" class .
If only that was true.

Ruffian only works on DW skills so only twin blade and blunt.

see:

I swear I did notice a lot increased damage when I unlocked the passive.
I don't know, I should run better tests then.

And I swear when I wrote that or even before that there wasn't that label.
Damn me.