PTS 3.0.4 Nightbaldes Grim Focus. Buff or Nerf ? [Feedback.]. now with Actual Test results...

CavalryPK · May 2017

Nightblade

Assassination
- Grim Focus:
  - You can now fire multiple Assassin’s Will or Assassin’s Scourge bow procs from a single cast of this ability and its morphs.
  - Increased the amount of Light or Heavy Attacks needed to obtain an Assassin’s Will or Assassin’s Scourge bow proc to 5 attacks from 4.
- Merciless Resolve (Grim Focus morph): Reduced the duration of the snare from this morph’s Assassin’s Will bow proc to 3 seconds from 5 seconds.
  Developer Comments:
  Allowing you to fire multiple Assassin’s Will procs from a single cast of Grim Focus should streamline the ability usage by eliminating the need to recast it early. We’ve increased the amount of attacks needed to obtain a proc slightly, but the net result should be an increase in Nightblade PvE DPS with the extra global cooldowns.

@Wrobel , @ZOS_RichLambert , @ZOS_GinaBruno

OK guys. this is from the PTS 3.0.4 patch notes. As you can see the Grim Focus has been changed a little. So what does this mean?..... This is with no questions a really big buff to PVE and annoying nerf in PVP. Here is why.

PVE: PVE players rejoice!!!! In pve, during the 20 seconds, when you have your rotation perfectly you can squeeze roughly 16-17 light attacks in between skills. This means you can fire 3 spectral bow. you will be able to mess up 1 or 2 light attacks and still do your 3 spectral bows. however if you miss more than 2 light attacks you wont be able to do the 3rd spectral bow. This is a good change due to the following:

You wont have to recast grim focus every time.
you will save magicka since you don't have to recast the grim focus.
you overall dps will go up. since you will be able to fire more spectral bows with in 20 seconds with out recasting the grim focus.

PVP: Any experienced magblade knows that whenever the spectral bow ready... using it right away is not the most strategic way to fight. You see, in pvp, magblades hold on to the spectral bow proc. and as @Blobsky said in his stream, magblades wait until Ult is up so they can time their burst to get the kill.

On Live, when a magblade casts grim focus and then does the 4 light attacks and get the spectral bow proc, they now have roughly 13-15 (grim focus time) seconds to time their burst.

On PTS, when a magblade casts grim focus and then does the 5 light attacks and get the spectral bow proc, they would have roughly 10-13 seconds to time their burst. nothing major, this is just annoying.

However, after they cast their spectral bow, which does not happen right away.... they now have too little time left to take advantage from Grim Focus's on going spectral bow procs. Any experienced magblade would just recast the grim focus buff to get that 10-13 second window for the next burst. This is a bad change for the following reasons:

multiple assassin's will procs with in one grim focus do not apply to magblades in pvp.
Magblades will have to recast grim focus anyways for their second burst. so it does not save them magicka.
they now have to do an additional light attack which reduces their window of burst from 13-15 seconds to 10-13 seconds.

Suggestions:

increase the Grim focus buff duration. to give the pvp magblades an opportunity to actually take advantage from ongoing spectral bow procs.
or make it such that if in pvp , if for any amazing miraculous reason a magblade is able to squeeze in the second spectral bow the grim focus automatically refreshes.
or reduce the amount of light attack down to 4.

ZOS, cmon.. you can see this Grim focus adjustment has PVE smeared all over its face.

To magblade community ... what do you guys think. do you agree or disagree? I hope zos reads this.

*****************************EDIT 1: ACTUAL TEST RESULTS: by F7sus4******************

F7sus4 wrote: »

Oh god...

Just tested the new Grim Focus in 3.0.4... Sorry for bold but this is important: • If you lose ~0.25-0.33s during PERFECT rotation you will NOT get 3rd Assassin's Will bow proc - you'll see the icon with the proc but EXACTLY after light attack and BEFORE activating last proc it will be gone (20s timeout).

•If you bar-swap during your rotation you're 99.99% likely NOT to get 3rd proc!
•If you miss 1 single light attack - you will not get 3rd proc!
•This skill definitely MUST go up to 24 seconds!

@Wrobel
@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_GinaBruno

Xvorg · May 2017

I don't see it as a nerf... in fact I'm planning to bring back an old build I had with some tweaks. Those LA are gonna hurt...

Assa will must be used at discression, not spamming it

Sugaroverdose · May 2017

So you'll need to wait for ultimate for one second less, not an end of the world, i still remember 1.6 where no-one did use grim focus for assassins proc.

CavalryPK · May 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

I don't see it as a nerf... in fact I'm planning to bring back an old build I had with some tweaks. Those LA are gonna hurt...

Assa will must be used at discression, not spamming it

Yep, that is the point. if Assa will is used at discursion, that means... the whole "fire as many Assa. Wills. as you want in the 20 second window" does not apply. Annoying.. change that is all.

Sabbathius · May 2017

For PvP, definite nerf.

Nerf to burst isn't even arguable. When fighting starts, 5 attacks to trigger your burst instead of 4 is a nerf. Any way you slice it.

The nerf to slow from 5 sec to 3 sec is also not arguable. Again, any way you cut it.

The improvement this patch that you don't need to re-cast after firing off the proc is largely meaningless, because in PvP most of the time you do not fire it as soon as it procs, but rather line it up based on situation with your burst combo. Which means a lot (most?) of the time the old fire-and-recast approach will still apply. I'm going to call this one a wash, not a nerf, not a buff, just a quality of life change.

So, to recap, we have 2 nerfs, 1 wash. Overall verdict: nerf in PvP.

In PvE, honestly, who cares? If you can't beat AI the problem is between the chair and the keyboard anyway.

CavalryPK · May 2017

Sabbathius wrote: »

For PvP, definite nerf.

Nerf to burst isn't even arguable. When fighting starts, 5 attacks to trigger your burst instead of 4 is a nerf. Any way you slice it.

The nerf to slow from 5 sec to 3 sec is also not arguable. Again, any way you cut it.

The improvement this patch that you don't need to re-cast after firing off the proc is largely meaningless, because in PvP most of the time you do not fire it as soon as it procs, but rather line it up based on situation with your burst combo. Which means a lot (most?) of the time the old fire-and-recast approach will still apply. I'm going to call this one a wash, not a nerf, not a buff, just a quality of life change.

So, to recap, we have 2 nerfs, 1 wash. Overall verdict: nerf in PvP.

In PvE, honestly, who cares? If you can't beat AI the problem is between the chair and the keyboard anyway.

Well said. thanks for the post.

Lum1on · May 2017

I don't think it's a nerf for PvP players. To be honest, I didn't even think about it the way you brought it up. But still I don't think of it as a nerf, and here's why:

You cast Grim focus and do the light attacks and if, for some reason, you do not have your burst ready yet you could simply fire it off, do your thing while landing another 5 attacks and you definitely should have your combo ready by then (if you only want to use it for your combo, why would you cast it in the first place if you don't have the combo-wombo ready soon?)

HugeMuffin · May 2017

PVP - Nerf

PvE - Quality of life buff. It saves on resources of the recast, but you're trading a skill click for a LA which lets you insert a DOT or Buff into your rotation where you used to have to keep dropping focus.

The community did ask for the "automatic recast" of this skill up to the original duration, but we didn't ask for the extra LA click. Why can't zeni just give the NB a conditionless buff? Why in the name of balance does the overall least viable class need to have something taken away every time we get something? Nobody would argue that 4 LA+multiple scourge would make PVP or PvE NB's overpowered, but magblades get another kick to the ribs when they're down.

Xvorg · May 2017

CavalryPK wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

I don't see it as a nerf... in fact I'm planning to bring back an old build I had with some tweaks. Those LA are gonna hurt...

Assa will must be used at discression, not spamming it

Yep, that is the point. if Assa will is used at discursion, that means... the whole "fire as many Assa. Wills. as you want in the 20 second window" does not apply. Annoying.. change that is all.

But assa will is not the objective, at least in the build I'm planning. The buff is what makes it work

In theory seems a pretty interesting build. They are encouraging Mageblades to use LA rather than HA. With the right sets they might become a powerhouse for NBs.

casparian · May 2017

Sabbathius wrote: »

For PvP, definite nerf.

Nerf to burst isn't even arguable. When fighting starts, 5 attacks to trigger your burst instead of 4 is a nerf. Any way you slice it.

The nerf to slow from 5 sec to 3 sec is also not arguable. Again, any way you cut it.

The improvement this patch that you don't need to re-cast after firing off the proc is largely meaningless, because in PvP most of the time you do not fire it as soon as it procs, but rather line it up based on situation with your burst combo. Which means a lot (most?) of the time the old fire-and-recast approach will still apply. I'm going to call this one a wash, not a nerf, not a buff, just a quality of life change.

So, to recap, we have 2 nerfs, 1 wash. Overall verdict: nerf in PvP.

In PvE, honestly, who cares? If you can't beat AI the problem is between the chair and the keyboard anyway.

The PVE problem was never that magblades can't beat PVE content, it's that every other magicka class was more effective at beating it than magblades. Our problem isn't competing with the AI, it's competing with non-magblade players for spots.

Given other classes' PVP nerfs this patch, I'm not too concerned with these. I think heavy armor magblade is going to be at least as good in PVP as it has been for the last couple of patches if not better. I think our best bet going forward into the next patch is to focus on directing ZOS' attention to clearing up magblade's other, larger issues instead of dwelling on this one. Hopefully by U15 we can get them to look at:

- buffing Concealed Weapon or giving us some other decent non-reflectable option
- making our defensive tools actually work (make Cloak purge snares, for instance), especially given our new inability to exchange magicka for stamina, which Wrobel just shrugged off in ESO live, despite the fact that we need this ability more than other classes.

F7sus4 · May 2017

Oh god...

Just tested the new Grim Focus in 3.0.4... Sorry for bold but this is important:

If you lose ~0.25-0.33s during PERFECT rotation you will NOT get 3rd Assassin's Will bow proc - it will disappear EXACTLY after light attack and BEFORE activating last proc (~19.66s-19.75s out of 20s Grim Focus).
If you bar-swap during your rotation you'll lose ~0.25s and likely NOT get the 3rd proc.
If you miss 1 single light attack - you will not get 3rd proc.
This skill definitely MUST go up to 22-24 seconds (or return back to 4 light/heavy attacks)!

@Wrobel
@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_GinaBruno

casparian · May 2017

F7sus4 wrote: »

Oh god...

Just tested the new Grim Focus in 3.0.4... Sorry for bold but this is important:

If you lose ~0.25-0.33s during perfect rotation you will NOT get 3rd Assassin's Will bow proc. You'll see the icon with the proc but EXACTLY after light attack and BEFORE activating 3rd and last proc it will be gone (20s timeout). This skill definitely must go up to 24 seconds! If you bar-swap during your rotation you're 99% likely NOT to get 3rd proc!

I was afraid of that...maybe we could petition to get them to increase the buff to 24 seconds?

Xvorg · May 2017

F7sus4 wrote: »

Oh god...

Just tested the new Grim Focus in 3.0.4... Sorry for bold but this is important:

If you lose ~0.25-0.33s during perfect rotation you will NOT get 3rd Assassin's Will bow proc. You'll see the icon with the proc but EXACTLY after light attack and BEFORE activating 3rd and last proc it will be gone (20s timeout). This skill definitely must go up to 24 seconds! If you bar-swap during your rotation you're 99% likely NOT to get 3rd proc!

interesting... what about giving 3 Assa will after activation (with a 2~4 secs CD)? Actually I don't like the idea of rushing assa will ass soon as it procs. I prefer it moar as a tactic skill.

F7sus4 · May 2017

casparian wrote: »

I was afraid of that...maybe we could petition to get them to increase the buff to 21 seconds?

Assuming there's movement and bar-swapping 21 seconds in no place is safe to get the 3rd proc. The test was performed in "laboratory condition" on skeleton with 100 ping and zero distraction. I failed to activate the 3rd proc 4 out of 10 times. It's annoying because you see the icon of the proc and the very milisecond you press to to shoot the arrow - you're actually just reactivating the skill because 20s is gone. And I'm really talking miliseconds.

CavalryPK · May 2017

F7sus4 wrote: »

Oh god...

Just tested the new Grim Focus in 3.0.4... Sorry for bold but this is important:
If you lose ~0.25-0.33s during PERFECT rotation you will NOT get 3rd Assassin's Will bow proc - you'll see the icon with the proc but EXACTLY after light attack and BEFORE activating last proc it will be gone (20s timeout).

If you bar-swap during your rotation you're 99.99% likely NOT to get 3rd proc!

If you miss 1 single light attack - you will not get 3rd proc!

This skill definitely MUST go up to 24 seconds!

@Wrobel
@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_GinaBruno

Thank you for the feedback. I am going to move your comments to the top.

ixie · May 2017

It is a nerf. I tested and can only reliably fire the spectral bow twice in the 20 seconds on the target dummy, in part because using fire staff and weaving Swallow Soul means I have to use medium attacks as light attacks don't land, in PvP you would have to recast after every spectral bow anyway as others have already stated

Also, why are they reducing the duration of the snare, a nerf on top of a nerf

Below I have tried to diagram six spectral bows on live and PTS

C = cast grim focus
L = light/medium attack
L = light/medium attack with spectral bow

Live
C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L

PTS
C L L L L L L L L L L C L L L L L L L L L L C L L L L L L L L L L

CavalryPK · May 2017

ixie wrote: »

It is a nerf. I tested and can only reliably fire the spectral bow twice in the 20 seconds on the target dummy, in part because using fire staff and weaving Swallow Soul means I have to use medium attacks as light attacks don't land, in PvP you would have to recast after every spectral bow anyway as others have already stated

Also, why are they reducing the duration of the snare, a nerf on top of a nerf

Below I have tried to diagram six spectral bows on live and PTS

C = cast grim focus
L = light/medium attack
L = light/medium attack with spectral bow

Live
C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L

PTS
C L L L L L L L L L L C L L L L L L L L L L C L L L L L L L L L L

Thank you. @F7sus4 did the test also and can confirm 2 spectral bows per 20 seconds.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2017

Buff the duration of the ability..this is a joke in pvp to an already predictable and clunky burst. You basically just nerfed the snare..which provides essentially zero value in pve. ZoS.. cmon now the idea is great, I was excited..but look at the full picture of this ability if you're going to make such a large change to our main burst this is just a small pvp nerf but a nerd nonetheless to a class you've already hurt pretty bad this patch.

Blobsky · May 2017

I stand that is it is a buff for pve - stone cold fact.

I also believe that it is a buff to a magNB pvper - reduced overall cost and hassle openworld, especially with how unreliable it can be proccing, and I use them automatically on getting them to pressure, and SAVE for an ult. Does waiting 1 light attack more in 20 seconds cause me a problem there? Not at all, my ulti is ready anyway, just need my target low. Does reduced cast hassle cause problems? Certainly not!

Rohamad_Ali · May 2017

F7sus4 wrote: »

Oh god...

Just tested the new Grim Focus in 3.0.4... Sorry for bold but this is important:
If you lose ~0.25-0.33s during PERFECT rotation you will NOT get 3rd Assassin's Will bow proc - you'll see the icon with the proc but EXACTLY after light attack and BEFORE activating last proc it will be gone (20s timeout).

If you bar-swap during your rotation you're 99.99% likely NOT to get 3rd proc!

If you miss 1 single light attack - you will not get 3rd proc!

This skill definitely MUST go up to 24 seconds (or return back to 4 light/heavy attacks)!

@Wrobel
@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_GinaBruno

Assassins will bugs like that on live sometimes . The icon will appear but when you hit it , it just refreshes the buff timer . Usually if it procs a few seconds before the timer expires .

leepalmer95 · May 2017

Buff in pve
Nerf in pvp

Oh how the tables have changes

Where's the 'sick of pve getting nerfed because of pvp' fanboi's now?

F7sus4 · May 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Assassins will bugs like that on live sometimes . The icon will appear but when you hit it , it just refreshes the buff timer . Usually if it procs a few seconds before the timer expires .

Please read carefully and with understanding. There is no bug involved. You're at ~19.66-19.75s out of 20s in your rotation when you're about to shot 3rd Assassin's Bow proc therefore why you're very likely to miss it (be it rotation delay on player side or simply bad ping on server side).

ixie wrote: »

It is a nerf. I tested and can only reliably fire the spectral bow twice in
Live
C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L

PTS
C L L L L L L L L L L C L L L L L L L L L L C L L L L L L L L L L

You can do this on PTS:
C L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L* C L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L

*but you need to be absolutely perfect on your timing and it's literally miliseconds away from loosing the last proc.

I'm positive the skill wasn't meant to make you miss like that in 99% scenarios - please look into it.

@Wrobel
@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_GinaBruno

Possible easy-to-introduce solutions:

Make it last 24 seconds
Keep 20 seconds but revert to 4 light/heavy attacks

bubbygink · May 2017

I think it is a slight buff in PvP. It sounds like getting off a 3rd bow in the window is tough but being able to get 2 off is still a slight buff. On live when I fail to get a kill with my bow combo, even if I get them low to like 30%, it usually means I need to rebuff and try again. So I will have to LA + recast merciless before doing 4 more LAs to set up another burst. When I recast that merciless it gives them an extra second to heal up or throw on another shield which I won't have put a dent in.

Now, after a failed kill with a bow shot, instead of doing LA + recast merciless, I'll do LA + funnel. Then I'll proceed as normal to weave in 4 more LAs for my next burst. So basically my rotation is done the same way but in the middle there I get to cast an extra funnel over recasting merciless. This could be the difference between getting a kill or not.

This will be particularly beneficial against mag sorcs IMO. A lot of times I need to first damage their health underneath their shield a bit to get them into kill range (so maybe get it down to 14-16k or so underneath) for my tether + bow combo. Often my first merciless is enough to do that. But then I need to recast merciless and that second of downtime may be the time they need to get their healing ward to pop and restore them back to full. Now they won't have that downtime as I will be able to throw another swallow soul instead and keep the pressure until I can tether+bow.

Anyway, that is how I see it. So IMO it is a buff for PVP but not a very big one. It will help keep pressure up if you fail to get a kill with your first merciless combo. It can delay our initial burst at the start of the fight for another second - although a lot of times, as many have said in this thread, you may hold it until 8 or 9 seconds have passed anyway so in those case it won't make a difference. I think the ability to keep the pressure up for a second bow outweighs the fact it sometimes takes another second or so to launch the first bow. So again, to me it is slight buff in PVP.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2017

Blobsky wrote: »

I stand that is it is a buff for pve - stone cold fact.

I also believe that it is a buff to a magNB pvper - reduced overall cost and hassle openworld, especially with how unreliable it can be proccing, and I use them automatically on getting them to pressure, and SAVE for an ult. Does waiting 1 light attack more in 20 seconds cause me a problem there? Not at all, my ulti is ready anyway, just need my target low. Does reduced cast hassle cause problems? Certainly not!

Idk..you pointed one of the real problems in your statement on how unreliable the proc can be..adding an additional light attack isn't going to make it any more reliable and is going in the wrong direction for fluidity of the ability. I think a small increase to ability uptime to where ou wouldn't necessarily be able to get 4 procs off in a pve setting but more reliability for procs in pvp and atleast 2 procs and possibly a situational 3rd would be helpful. Can't comment too much myself just want to test it out and see. Atleast they're looking at the ability..it's a start I suppose

Strider_Roshin · May 2017

F7sus4 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Assassins will bugs like that on live sometimes . The icon will appear but when you hit it , it just refreshes the buff timer . Usually if it procs a few seconds before the timer expires .

Please read carefully and with understanding. There is no bug involved. You're at ~19.75s out of 20s in your rotation when you're about to shot 3rd Assassin's Bow proc therefore why you're very likely to miss it (be it rotation delay on player side or simply bad ping on server side).

ixie wrote: »

It is a nerf. I tested and can only reliably fire the spectral bow twice in
Live
C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L

PTS
C L L L L L L L L L L C L L L L L L L L L L C L L L L L L L L L L

You can do this on PTS:
C L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L* C L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L

*but you need to be absolutely perfect on your timing and it's literally miliseconds away from loosing the last proc.

I'm positive the skill wasn't meant to make you miss like that in 99% scenarios - please look into it.

@Wrobel
@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_GinaBruno

Possible easy-to-introduce solutions:
Make it last 24 seconds

Keep 20 seconds but revert to 4 light/heavy attacks

Reverting it to 4 light attacks would be the best approach. It'll remove the PvP nerf while maintaining the PvE buff. They made this type of change for Sorcs with Haunting Curse, hopefully they'll do the same for Nightblades.

Capt_Morgan · May 2017

Like weaving lightning staff. You can fire assa with the fifth LA if you take like a half second pause. On live you can do it on the four, basically firing the bow right as it procs, not on the next global. This will put your third bow at like 16 17 seconds. L2P

CavalryPK · May 2017

Capt_Morgan wrote: »

Like weaving lightning staff. You can fire assa with the fifth LA if you take like a half second pause. On live you can do it on the four, basically firing the bow right as it procs, not on the next global. This will put your third bow at like 16 17 seconds. L2P

lol

F7sus4 · May 2017

Capt_Morgan wrote: »

Like weaving lightning staff. You can fire assa with the fifth LA if you take like a half second pause. On live you can do it on the four, basically firing the bow right as it procs, not on the next global. This will put your third bow at like 16 17 seconds. L2P

This is not about light attacks but weaving (animation canceling) light attacks and skills - pretty much like in any competitive DPS rotation. GCD timings prevent you from reaching 3rd proc because of the minimum timeframe each skill cast requires you to go through before being able to animation cancel it and then repeat again. And we're not even counting bar-swapping/bar-cancel and user mistakes here. I'm not sure you understand what we're talking about - at all.

Capt_Morgan wrote: »

MagBlade main since early Access.

What a ruthless irony.

Avran_Sylt · May 2017

Yep, they said that it would give 3-4 assassin's wills... if you only light attack. While In rotation I only ever got it to proc twice cause of my *** rotation skills.

Br1ckst0n · May 2017

CavalryPK wrote: »

*****************************EDIT 1: ACTUAL TEST RESULTS: by F7sus4******************

F7sus4 wrote: »

Oh god...

Just tested the new Grim Focus in 3.0.4... Sorry for bold but this is important: • If you lose ~0.25-0.33s during PERFECT rotation you will NOT get 3rd Assassin's Will bow proc - you'll see the icon with the proc but EXACTLY after light attack and BEFORE activating last proc it will be gone (20s timeout).

•If you bar-swap during your rotation you're 99.99% likely NOT to get 3rd proc!
•If you miss 1 single light attack - you will not get 3rd proc!
•This skill definitely MUST go up to 24 seconds!

I approve. It was pretty easy to get a 3rd proc when just weaving on one bar. Once i executed my normal rotation i never got a 3rd proc. 24 seconds was what i would have recommended aswell because it fits in so well with wall of elements rotations.

Another annoying thing is that you wont get benefit from light attacks that 'are in the air' while you cast the ability.

F7sus4 · May 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Yep, they said that it would give 3-4 assassin's wills... if you only light attack. While In rotation I only ever got it to proc twice cause of my *** rotation skills.

I'm pretty sure it was clear the improvement was meant to smooth PvE DPS rotation - which never consists of just light attacks.

The way it is right now - it's barely any buff, if not actually a nerf. After the whole evening of testing I'm able to shoot 3 Assassin's Will with ~0.5s left for the last proc. Requires absolutely flawless rota execution.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert
@Wrobel

Come on, guys - giving this spell 2-4s more uptime won't wreck PvP (won't even tickle it!) but it will allow basically 99% of your player-base to get their most wanted 3rd proc here.