Why not use magicka damage glyphs that return magicka on both weapons then that seems to me to be a good trade off sense then you can weave light attacks in and have them proc to return magicka? Also with the new cp changes you could even run one infused to get more magicka back as well I will have to test it but pretty sure it could work with the right rotation.

And also the procs from the glyphs do get the the elemental expert damage increase from it as well so you could get a possible boost in your dps from them,

Given that I use a lot of heavy attacks already, it wouldn't make much sense to use resource-return-incompatible weapons. Some time ago, I used to use stamina weapons on my magplars, magblades and magknights, but then I didn't know any better.

It wasn't until testing endgame characters on the PTS last year that I'd know that my builds for those classes with magicka would be suffering. I'm perfectly happy to recreate such builds using staves and heavy armour (I always use HA for non-sorc mag builds), it makes perfect sense to me.

Kudos to those who managed to make something different work, and I'm sorry the joy from doing so will be gone, but mag weapons for mag builds and likewise for stam is logical, and I, for one, and perfectly happy to follow that approach.

"ZoS is homogenizing everything."

Sorry Joy I have to disagree on this if anything they are trying to create diversity. It has always been the meta that has been homogenizing the game with alot of end game builds being to much the same and not enough differences in play. Most Stam builds use a lot of the same skills and the same gear the class is whats different and this goes on into many other builds as well and this is because no one trys to make builds diverse instead its crunch numbers and thats best when the game offers over a 100k in different builds and that is not the accurate number its way more then that.

The problem is that when things get to heavy into the same and not enough diversity in a game that does not restrict the class to role and the gear it is not like every other mmo it has to be played in a different way to what many know but to many are still stuck in what many development groups/ company's call the traditional mindset and its just a term. This game was trying to break away from the traditional mmo play to allow for more diverse gameplay to where you can make a tank in light armor to a magicka DPS in heavy but know one does that for end game cause someone else came along crunched some numbers got some minor differences and said its not BiS so it not how you play and everyone said ok. This game is not Wow, EQ2, SWTOR, LOTRO, or any of the other mmos some might of come from and really is not ment to be played that way other then the role you choose this game only shares similar stuff to the standard mmo.

Not trying to come off as rude but this is what many mmos have tried to do and every time these kind of things happen where the player base is just as much to blame as the devs on certain matters the game gets nerfs to try and balance the game to its core game design. Its like D&D going through its changes from 1st to 5th now it only shares some similarity's to its former and 4th edition tried to make it pen and paper mmo. The more things change the more less like it and other love it in some cases many call it dumbing down a game but its to keep the game to its core game design like D&D did with 5th edition.

I'd like to see a dark souls like system where you could take a typical stamina type weapon a change the damage scaling to magica. Maybe have the HA return magic as well.

Nifty2g wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZoS is homogenizing everything.

What do you mean, Wrobel said himself they dont want any homogenizing. I don't believe this.

Each class used to have a unique form of resource return that made them play different (DKs ultimate, helping hands, templars Restoring spirit passive, nb's siphoning attacks, Sorcs channeled ability). Every class got their form gutted (except sorcs) and now instead they all have to do the same thing: rely on heavy attacks.

This has followed a general trend ever since ZoS introduced the 1.6 patch and the CP system

What were once unique and class defining abilities have been stripped from the classes and put in the form of flat generic percentage increases available to everyone either by the champion system, the major/minor buff system, gear, etc.

Templars use to be defined by ability to grant stamina to allies, now every class can do this.

DK Flames of Oblivion used to provide class with critical percentage boost, now it is redundant to inner light available to everyone.

Temps and DKs used to have unique forms of damage evasion via class abilities. That's gone, replaced by generic main buffs and the shuffle skill.

It's even getting to the point where the weapon lines are being turned into generic powers whose main distinction is the color of the graphics. Look of what the Siphon Spirit spell on the restoration staff once did back in 1.5: independent heal, independent source of magicka return, extra benefits to the person who went through the cast time. Now it just gives two the lifesteal and magicka steal debuffs that are available elsewhere in skills like elemental drain that have no cast time and perform other functions.

LiquidPony wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Dual Wield meta was a dumb idea to begin with. It's not intuitive to new players, it doesn't make sense thematically, it looks rather odd, and gives you almost zero synergy with Dual Wield passives/actives (Besides the Twin blade and blunt passive).

There's no real reason why it should exist. It doesn't fit with the overall design of magicka builds.

Being able to carry two weapons should not be a stamina exclusive thing. The extra set piece plays an important role in build diversity.

Koensol wrote: »

Dual wielding on a magicka character is pretty dumb anyway. One of the most stupid meta's I have ever seen. The swords are just there. You aren't even using them. Lame.

Dumb in what way? Having two sword has always existed. Its pivotal to Magicka Templar and Magicka DK builds. There also used to be Magicka Socerers with dual swords, but especially with the resource nerfs, that's also been eliminated.

This change is just a perverted hotfix to try to level out trials dps so that cost reduction build + light weaves will be more in line with full damage build + heavy weaves.... but it causes more issues in the process than it solves. Weaving is a major aspect of the game, you can't just overhaul how it operates at the last minute of a PTS cycle.

Why shouldn't 5/5/2 be exclusively for stamina, though?

You talk about build diversity, but isn't this the mindset that kills diversity? "No other build can have any special capabilities unless mine can have them too."

There are all sorts of advantages exclusive to Magicka builds.

There are all sorts of advantages to being stamina too. While I agree stamina needs a lot of work for end-game raiding, in PvP stamina is very much top notch and has tons of advantages when compared to magicka builds.

miteba wrote: »

Dont agree with anyone that opposes to build diversity... making magicka characters using only staves or stamina characters using only weaponry.
For starters Magicka users are automatically in disadvantage because there are 6 weapon skill lines and only 2 are "magicka based" (Resto and Destro - 2handed only), as the other 4 are "stamina based" (2Handed, Dual Wield, Bow, One Hand & Shield)

DragonBound wrote: »

...what they need to do is add a new magicka weapon line.

Accidentaly(?) you found a good solution... a wand or a sceptre would be a good addition for a possible dual wield magicka weapon skill line

Not accidentally, I knew since I started playing, I was thinking conjured weapons line or something like that.

sentientomega wrote: »

Starless06 wrote: »

I'd like to see a dark souls like system where you could take a typical stamina type weapon a change the damage scaling to magica. Maybe have the HA return magic as well.

Actually, I might buy into being able to have, for instance, stamina weapons, under certain circumstance, copy the damage potential for a staff. Like, you equip a greatsword, and and slot a certain passive in a skill line (for stamina weapons, the first passive in every one of their skill lines, like the taunt effect for tri-focus frost staff), and your damage dealt by the weapon, and resources returned would scale off your highest stat, so not only would stam weapons on mag chars deal damage as effectively as destruction staves, but they'd also restore magicka, but your weapon skill line's abilities would not scale with your highest stat, so you'd have to use only class abilities if you went that way.

Now, if that was all the case, I'd've not needed to rearrange my character roster, and delete a bunch of mag chars using stamina weapons who would've suffered very heavily at higher levels.

Its an interesting thought. I saw someone else post a thread about this when Friday's video hit. But we'd probably get the opposite problem of my complaint here. Giving DW full light damage and giving them magicka sustain would push Dual Wield too far ahead of staves, when currently there are merits to both that is fairly balanced and interesting.

At this point, maybe they should allow all weapons to return resources on conditions, like stamina if weapon damage is higher or magicka if spell damage is higher.

-shrug-

Still don't understand the logic behind the heavy attack / resource return stuff.

Why does swinging a giant hammer with all your strength and power magically give you "more energy" surely it should by all logic drain it. The same goes for your magika weapon. Surely it's more effort to lay waste with a heavy again putting strain on these magical resources over lightly stabbing away with it...

Pretty sure all previous tes games drained stamina on "charge attacks" which is an eso heavy.

Astrid_V wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Dual wielding on a magicka character is pretty dumb anyway. One of the most stupid meta's I have ever seen. The swords are just there. You aren't even using them. Lame.

Uhm, I'm using light attack weaves on my dual wield magplar...

Well sure, but using la weave is not exclusive to using dw. It's just that people only use it because of the stat and set bonus advantages. Im willing to bet that when ZOS implemented these things, it was probably not even an intended thing. It is just weird that a new player somehow has to find out that dw gives better stats than staff on his magicka templar. It is just weird and illogical design, which (again) was probably not even intended. To me (my opinion, you don't have to agree) this is very dumb.

F7sus4 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Dual wielding on a magicka character is pretty dumb anyway. One of the most stupid meta's I have ever seen. The swords are just there. You aren't even using them. Lame.

Back in the days I actually had Quick Cloak slotted on my back-bar on magNB for vMOL hardmode AoE damage reduction in my flex spot sometimes (it also provided Major Expedition that helped running). Some out-of-the-box ideas still have their niche uses.

I agree with your last sentence, but let me phrase it this way: Would you use dw for the Quick Cloak if dw didn't give the stat advantage? You probably wouldn't. Which kind of proves my point that the primary reason people use dw is because stats and extra set point.

There is a lot of these weird things in eso that don't make sense to me. For example the highly anticlimatic and lame ability called 'entropy'. That ability has such a lame visual effect, does crap damage and healing, but a lot of builds (like templar healers) were often forced to use it because of the buff it gives. It feels so NOT COOL to have to use this ability. It doesn't even fit with the templar theme.

Some other examples:
- Gankers using magelight before the gank to gain empower. I mean what the hell... how does it make any sense to use magelight in a stealth scenario...
- Ult generation on light attacks. Weird and arbitrary.
- Heavy attacks giving stamina back. I don't even...
- Undaunted passive for using different kinds of armor. To me this feels weird and nonsensical to have to use a light armored belt and medium armor boots/gloves on a tanky character to get optimal stats.

It is weird and counter-intuitive stuff like this that is characteristic to ESO for me.

All these changes that "restore resouce based on max lvl" are homogenising builds. Before players could tweak their resources for specific abilities and playstyles. Now they cant, everyone is boring same.

BigES wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Consider...

light attacks do more damage while heavy attacks do less damage but more sustain.

That seems to favor the DW side a smidge because their light attack worked into a weave do more damage.

Wait, what? Have you ever done a light attack on a Magicka character with dual swords? You do realize its not even close to the same damage value, right?

STEVIL wrote: »

basically the old paradigm was if you are weaving with spammables you tended to use staff but if you are laying dots and aoe you are more likely to be using dw for its benefits instead of the weave. now the weave just got better by a smidge and frankly so did the dots (better damage to cost.)

So if you can manage your sustain without heavy attacks (almost by definition minimal use of spammables with weaves) you can reap the benefits of DW just fine.

What? I'm sorry but you really have no idea what you're talking about. You should be light weaving whether the attack you cast is a "spammable", a DoT, or an AoE. That has nothing to do with the weapon(s) in your hand.

Oh come on, is this the best you can do with the "obtusely read comments (ORC)" approach?

First bold - i said nothing about the relative strength of staff vs dw light attacks. i spoke about the difference in light attacks between the old and new. Fairly obvious two-step there, so no points for you.

Second bold, did not say you should not be weaving on your dots or aoes at all, just that the primary gain from DW was seen in builds focusing on non-spammable's - where you let the dw beef the ticks from dot, aoe exe etc... giving up the staff weaves strengths while milking the DW benefits whether they are on the dw bar or not (tho exe are usually on the dw bar.)

But hey look, far be it from me to try and get facts in the way... you want to think you dont want to run DW anymore... thats great. i wont disagree.

Enjoy your sticks.

Really appreciate all the brainstorming thus far from everyone.

Fasque wrote: »

There is something else nobody mentioned here before I guess.

Since medium attacks are noted in combat logs as heavy attacks it seems like medium attack weaving - wich requires more skill than spam the left mouse button during combat imo - will be dead next patch.

With the upcoming changes of the dmg reduction of heavy attacks this could affect medium attacks too. So you don't have any benefits of weaving mediums. I don't think that it will be still competitive with light attack weaving due to the incresed dmg and the rotation speed which is way higher and you neighter restore ressources with medium attacks. So there will be no point of using them.

This is a very good question/comment. I was discussing this over the weekend with guild mates, and this came up also. Forgot to include in OP. Patch just came out so we'll have to test and see how medium weaves are affected.