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Do not let the naysayers get you down. - There is Hope.
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Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.
There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.
One games success does not mean other games will see the same.
We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.
In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?
publish 16 was the final nail for UO, now its mere nostalgia that keeps the game going
And what did Publish 16 do to UO that you want to call it dead?XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0 -
Mojmir✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.
There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.
One games success does not mean other games will see the same.
We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.
In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?
publish 16 was the final nail for UO, now its mere nostalgia that keeps the game going
And what did Publish 16 do to UO that you want to call it dead?
the beginning of making things overly complicated with the age of shadows expansion and going in a direction no one wanted. hmm...who was the producer over at mythic at the time? Matt firor!!3 -
Knowledge✭✭✭✭✭
✭Many of us will simply adapt to the changes while others become victims of evolution.3 -
Majic✭✭✭✭✭"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
-- Imperium Thought for the Day, Warhammer 40,000Epopt Of The Everspinning Logo, Church Of The Eternal Loading Screen
And verily, verily, spaketh the Lord: "Error <<1>>"1 -
Wayshuba✭✭✭✭✭To the OP. I have been through many MMOs as well and some have been a success and indeed some have really hurt the game.
While I do not think that the class changes are going to have that big a negative effect on the game, I want to point to a couple examples where people did think most were over-reacting and indeed the game was substantially hurt because of it:
1.) SWTOR 5.0 Knight of the Fallen Empire - Galactic Command System. BioWare was heavily warned in beta, by the MMO newsites, and the community upon announcement that it would have a very detrimental effect on the game. This was far, far, far beyond what I have ever seen in reaction in an MMO (and I consider the reaction to the class changes coming in Morrowind along the normal range for an expansion). The didn't listen and there indeed was a massive outflux of player population. In fact, my entire guild moved to ESO as a result and we weren't the only guild to do so.
2.) Guild Wars 2 Heart of Thorns - This expansion was extremely light for charging a full expansion price and got a relative TON of negative feedback. Prior to Heart of Thorns, GW2 was doing about $25M-$28M a quarter. While they had a revenue spike with the expansion launch, they are now down to their lowest at $15M a quarter (and dropping) and while rumor of a new expansion has come out, there is little enthusiasm for it considering how bad they burned customers with the HoT expansion.
That being said, I stated earlier that I do not think the class changes will have that bad of an effect on the game. What we have to wait and see is if the expansion offers enough that people feel the separate charge above an ESO Plus DLC inclusion is worth it. If the expansion does turn out to be a Wrothgar + new class + Battlefields for a full expansion price, it may have an effect next year when ZOS wants to do another expansion. I know ZOS has been trying to be careful not to call this an expansion, but when you are charging an expansion price for it, everyone considers it one.
Only time will tell.Edited by Wayshuba on May 12, 2017 7:15PM1 -
Majic✭✭✭✭✭
Knowledge is power. Guard it well.
Epopt Of The Everspinning Logo, Church Of The Eternal Loading Screen
And verily, verily, spaketh the Lord: "Error <<1>>"0 -
Wayshuba✭✭✭✭✭Just wanted to throw this in...
Stamina builds have never sucked in this game...
In fact at launch I could flat out 4 shot you with Shield Bash alone.
Nevermind later on just flat out killing instantly if you were a vampire.
Thanks for saying this. I have only been playing for about 3 1/2 months and I am struggling to understand why all this negatively about Stamina builds. I thought maybe I have been doing something wrong since I haven't been having issues on the stamina builds.Edited by Wayshuba on May 12, 2017 7:28PM0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The people you claim to be "nasysayers" may have actually played on the PTS and raised legitimate questions about the direction of the game that have not been answered by ZoSMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.11 -
ObsidianMichi✭✭✭Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »As others have said, you can't compare these changes to other games. In all my years of MMOs, I've never seen such massive gameplay changes. You could argue that this is more significant than WoW's decision to move away from actual talent trees. With that change, it didn't affect HOW you played the game - it didn't change the core combat, just rotations and whatnot. These PTS changes literally change how combat works in endgame, how are more people not finding that scary?
I'm guessing you haven't been with the game that long, because the way endgame gets played around here changes fairly often. In the three years this game has been live, it has gone through many changes. Many much more earth shattering than this one, and people cried and stamped their feet about it then too.
The reason more people aren't freaked out is that lots of us have been around ESO for awhile, we've seen the changes, we've adapted to the changes, and know the meta for endgame changes around every three to six months. The class that's considered BiS now, might not be on the next round. The gear that's considered BiS won't be the same. The rotation will change. Before Champion Points, heavy attacking to regain resources was much more common but that wasn't the only way to regain them. ZOS is trying to shift back to their original vision for the combat systems, and given how stale the meta has gotten that's probably for the best.
We didn't use to have proc sets, or monster sets, or even overland drop sets. We had VR ranks and crafted gear. We didn't use to be able to access the whole map without beating the main quest first and traveling through the Gold and Silver zones. Endgame went through several different metas even then as combat got tweaked, classes were rebalanced, nerfs happened, and things changed.
This game evolves, and the meta evolves with it. It isn't a stable game in that department, and it never has been. If this freaks you out and you decide to stay, then prepare to be freaked out three to six months from now when the whole thing changes all over again.
I know Deltia prompted a lot of hysteria with his stupid funeral but, for the most part, it's just hysteria. That too is a regular cycle with the forum boards, and not anything earth shattering. A lot of chickens, not a lot of substance.
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SnubbS✭✭✭✭✭Many of us will simply adapt to the changes while others become victims of evolution.
Don't pretend like this sort of "Adapting" is some challenging and/or skillful thing. No one "can't" adapt to the changes—you're trying to act like this is some skill-based shooter where adapting to changes isn't as simple as just holding Left Mouse Click sometimes.7 -
SnubbS✭✭✭✭✭ObsidianMichi wrote: »Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »As others have said, you can't compare these changes to other games. In all my years of MMOs, I've never seen such massive gameplay changes. You could argue that this is more significant than WoW's decision to move away from actual talent trees. With that change, it didn't affect HOW you played the game - it didn't change the core combat, just rotations and whatnot. These PTS changes literally change how combat works in endgame, how are more people not finding that scary?
I'm guessing you haven't been with the game that long, because the way endgame gets played around here changes fairly often. In the three years this game has been live, it has gone through many changes. Many much more earth shattering than this one, and people cried and stamped their feet about it then too.
The reason more people aren't freaked out is that lots of us have been around ESO for awhile, we've seen the changes, we've adapted to the changes, and know the meta for endgame changes around every three to six months. The class that's considered BiS now, might not be on the next round. The gear that's considered BiS won't be the same. The rotation will change. Before Champion Points, heavy attacking to regain resources was much more common but that wasn't the only way to regain them. ZOS is trying to shift back to their original vision for the combat systems, and given how stale the meta has gotten that's probably for the best.
We didn't use to have proc sets, or monster sets, or even overland drop sets. We had VR ranks and crafted gear. We didn't use to be able to access the whole map without beating the main quest first and traveling through the Gold and Silver zones. Endgame went through several different metas even then as combat got tweaked, classes were rebalanced, nerfs happened, and things changed.
This game evolves, and the meta evolves with it. It isn't a stable game in that department, and it never has been. If this freaks you out and you decide to stay, then prepare to be freaked out three to six months from now when the whole thing changes all over again.
I know Deltia prompted a lot of hysteria with his stupid funeral but, for the most part, it's just hysteria. That too is a regular cycle with the forum boards, and not anything earth shattering. A lot of chickens, not a lot of substance.
The game isn't even changing that massively—it's just becoming less fun.8 -
i have just started to play couple months ago now eso plus sub and bought gold edition proly will carry on playng till i m 600 then stop after i got all the gear i wanted and smashed all the hardest stuff in game (no not pvp) lol always do that with most games go right to the top then quit play somit else .
i totaly agree with this post btw never have i heard of a dlc or major update killing a big game NEVER!
example: i been on World of Tanks since launch on 360 (beta tester in fact) . And trust me no matter how much forum junkies complain things just go along and get released as planned the developer never changes notin. and the community is 99% in the dark with no say.
All it does is bring new peopple in to play so even for every 1 that quits 3 new players will join.
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Enemy-of-Coldharbour✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Don't feed the Naysaya...
Silivren (Silly) Thalionwen | Altmer Templar | Magicka | 9-Trait Master Crafter/Jeweler | Master Angler | PVE Main - Killed by U35
Jahsul at-Sahan | Redguard Sorcerer | Stamina | Werewolf - Free Bites | PVP Main
Derrok Gunnolf | Redguard Dragonknight | Stamina | Werewolf - Free Bites
Liliana Littleleaf | 9-Trait Grand Master Crafter/Jeweler (non-combat)
Amber Emberheart | Breton Dragonknight | Stamina | Master Angler
Vlos Anon | Dunmer Nightblade | Magicka | Vampire - Free Bites
Kalina Valos | Dunmer Warden | Magicka | Vampire - Free Bites
Swiftpaws-Moonshadow | Khajiit Nightblade | Stamina
Morgul Vardar | Altmer Necromancer | Magicka
Tithin Geil | Altmer Sorceress | Magicka
Dhryk | Imperial Dragonknight | Stamina
Guild Master - ESO Traders Union
PC/NA - CP 2560+0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭1.) SWTOR 5.0 Knight of the Fallen Empire - Galactic Command System. BioWare was heavily warned in beta, by the MMO newsites, and the community upon announcement that it would have a very detrimental effect on the game. This was far, far, far beyond what I have ever seen in reaction in an MMO (and I consider the reaction to the class changes coming in Morrowind along the normal range for an expansion). The didn't listen and there indeed was a massive outflux of player population. In fact, my entire guild moved to ESO as a result and we weren't the only guild to do so.
As I recall, the issue with KotFE was a needless and excessive grind component added, and made mandatory for advancement. Bioware intended for you to spend the next six months grinding to get your gear back to where it was before the expansion launched.
Combine this with a game that is designed to be as unfriendly to free players as possible, encouraging them to leave if they won't cough up for a subscription fee, and given that the grinding was inflicted indiscriminately on the existing game population. I can understand.
Also, wasn't KotFE the expansion where you'd move your character five years into the future locking out all old content? Or am I thinking of another release from them?1 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
While I do not think that the class changes are going to have that big a negative effect on the game, I want to point to a couple examples where people did think most were over-reacting and indeed the game was substantially hurt because of it:
1.) SWTOR 5.0 Knight of the Fallen Empire - Galactic Command System. BioWare was heavily warned in beta, by the MMO newsites, and the community upon announcement that it would have a very detrimental effect on the game. This was far, far, far beyond what I have ever seen in reaction in an MMO (and I consider the reaction to the class changes coming in Morrowind along the normal range for an expansion). The didn't listen and there indeed was a massive outflux of player population. In fact, my entire guild moved to ESO as a result and we weren't the only guild to do so.
The exodus was so bad EA intervened directly (something they had said they would not do) and sent out a Customer Satisfaction Survey to see why so many people were quitting.
Subsequently Ben Irving (Lead Producer behind 5.0) has been "promoted sideways" (away from SWTOR) and a new Lead Producer put in place, and the new LP has already started undoing some of the changes that 5.0 introduced (you will soon be able to purchase T1 Gear Sets with Command Token directly, rather than relying on a cheap-ass, lazy RNG system) and has spoken about addressing some of the other issues, including looking to get more Group Content into the game.
SWTOR was not only a disaster in terms of player retention it was an even bigger disaster in terms of PR between the players and Bioware. It has taken a change of senior personnel to start undoing that damage.
Does ZoS have that kind of courage? I don't think so.
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.1 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
As I recall, the issue with KotFE was a needless and excessive grind component added, and made mandatory for advancement. Bioware intended for you to spend the next six months grinding to get your gear back to where it was before the expansion launched.
Combine this with a game that is designed to be as unfriendly to free players as possible, encouraging them to leave if they won't cough up for a subscription fee, and given that the grinding was inflicted indiscriminately on the existing game population. I can understand.
Also, wasn't KotFE the expansion where you'd move your character five years into the future locking out all old content? Or am I thinking of another release from them?
5.0 was actually Knights Of The Eternal Throne, that did introduce Command Crates and the associated gear grind.
KOTFE was the previous expansion, and it does not lock you out of previous content entirely. You can still complete Planetary Story Arcs etc, but you will be locked out of Class Story and Companion Side-Story arcs once you start KOTFE. However, by the time you get high enough level to access KOTFE you'd have to been working very hard at avoiding both the Class Story and Companion Story elements to not have finished them.
I agree entirely with your comments on how unfriendly SWTOR is to F2P players though.
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.1 -
GriMTriAd✭✭✭This thread is fascinating.
On my whiteboard I have a quote, "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice" - Grey's Law
There's definitely some of that going on here. The absolute position held by ZOS that PvP and PvE can be balanced in the same game that are literally using the same concepts and tropes of other games in the genre that failed to do the exact same thing is laughable. The arrogance and ignorance of that statement is so far removed from reality that it brings into question the decision for every single patch note.
The marketing for why this is a paid "not-an-expansion" but not part of the ESO+ membership is distasteful to many paying customers who purchased on promises (you can go look up the videos) that won't be upheld. It is completely reasonable for those people to be disenfranchised.
A balance patch of this magnitude that fails, objectively fails, to balance the core concerns of the current audience can only be considered a remarkable failure. This was SOOO bad they didn't even have patch notes (not one) for the class everyone else wished their character was. Had the patch notes all been buffs to bring people up to the same level there would have been no outcry. Had the patch notes (3.0.0) been nerfs heavily concentrated on bringing this class in line there would have been an outcry but on a more reasonable level. Also the trolling would have been more epic because the people getting trolled would actually deserve it.
Instead we get a series of nerfs on classes and playstyles that are already struggling in PvE while only being competitive in PvP. Not only does this cause the playerbase to lose trust in the leadership and development of ZOS but they are well justified in their position. To follow up the obvious outcry that was going to happen, they nerf the class in such a subtle way that many people have claimed they haven't even noticed.
This isn't balance, this isn't an exceptional enough content increase to be outside of the standard ESO+ membership, and the community has consistently been mismanaged the entire time. So yeah, people are afraid the game they currently enjoy won't be after the patch. They feel betrayed and abused by a company they have been giving money and support to.
Let's contrast this against another game patching at about the same time.
Path of Exile is currently in the biggest mechanics overhaul it has ever had. They're getting ready to release on XBox and they are destroying (literally ripping out) the mechanic that most high end builds rely on for their absurd DPS. In response most of the community cheered.
They have several threads like this one but you consistently see people happy with the way this situation has been handled.
pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1897612
They've been managing expectations that this was coming (telling people for almost a year about the expected changes) which has given them plenty of time to adjust. They are making sure the people that enjoy the flavor of the mechanic will still have a playable option, and the GGG dev's targeted real issues constantly brought up by the community. Also that game is completely F2P. You pay for bank space to avoid creating a second account, and buy cosmetic micro-transactions. The devs even said they support players having more than one account to increase bank space. Also, the new expansion is coming with new mechanics, 150% more storyline content and is also completely free.
I'll grant you a large portion of the player base in PoE throw away their characters every 3 months for the next league so it's a different experience than players in ESO, but it doesn't change the fact that the communication from the developers feels mature and responsive. They have processes and policies that make sure players get feedback on long term fixes, and they appear to actually care about balance.
I don't get that impression here. And you can say whatever you want to defend ZoS, but it's my impression. I consistently don't see meaningful dev responses in the forums, the information in their vBlog is painful to watch through, and they don't feel connected with their player-base. Those are not good signs to me.
_WAter_
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Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭On my whiteboard I have a quote, "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice" - Grey's Law
I prefer Hanlon's razor. "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."The absolute position held by ZOS that PvP and PvE can be balanced in the same game that are literally using the same concepts and tropes of other games in the genre that failed to do the exact same thing is laughable. The arrogance and ignorance of that statement is so far removed from reality that it brings into question the decision for every single patch note.
For this, we pull out Clark.
"The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible."
So, until they really try, it is not arrogance or ignorance. If we apply the thinking that, just because someone else did it, and failed, why bother doing it, then a lot of advancements would never have been made.A balance patch of this magnitude that fails, objectively fails, to balance the core concerns of the current audience can only be considered a remarkable failure. This was SOOO bad they didn't even have patch notes (not one) for the class everyone else wished their character was. Had the patch notes all been buffs to bring people up to the same level there would have been no outcry. Had the patch notes (3.0.0) been nerfs heavily concentrated on bringing this class in line there would have been an outcry but on a more reasonable level. Also the trolling would have been more epic because the people getting trolled would actually deserve it.
When someone has a particular perspective, and is unwilling to modify that perspective, we call it hard headed. The idea becomes more important than everything else, and those who hold that idea are incapable of seeing anything else. It becomes a blind spot. Grey does not apply here, or in most places (it is a stupid "law"), mainly because malice is not even indicated. Competence does not even come into play because these positions can be held by both competent, and incompetent, people. It is stubbornness and being unwilling to accept an answer other than the favored answer.
XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »As others have said, you can't compare these changes to other games. In all my years of MMOs, I've never seen such massive gameplay changes. You could argue that this is more significant than WoW's decision to move away from actual talent trees. With that change, it didn't affect HOW you played the game - it didn't change the core combat, just rotations and whatnot. These PTS changes literally change how combat works in endgame, how are more people not finding that scary?
Heavy attacking isn't fun. I'll repeat, heavy attacking isn't fun. At least, not with this game and its current design. This is the only statement that matters. ZOS are trying to build combat around a mechanic that is not fun, and that is why this situation is unique compared to other MMOs. Any other argument is irrelevant.
So sure, there will be plenty of new arrivals in morrowind. Tons, even! Between general expansion returnees and the TES fanboys flocking to the game for nostalgia's sake, the game's population will swell to crazy levels...for a time. But, when these casuals and new players realize that they run out of resources in a few abilities and need to sit through countless heavy attack animations to sustain themselves, how long do you think they'll stay? They aren't invested in the game, as soon as they conclude "this isn't fun" they'll log out and never look back.
And yeah, I know I'm know I'm making assumptions here. But I think these assumptions are pretty well-founded. Consider the average gamer. The average RPG player / TES fan might have a bit more patience than the average gamer, but not much. These are the majority of these "new" players coming in. Consider that, and consider a heavy attack meta.
Nobody forces you to heavy attack.
Swap one damage set for a sustain set.
Or swap some of your damage jewelry enchantments for cost reduction or regen.
People can be so narrowminded when it comes to change.0 -
NecroEnzo✭✭✭Nobody forces you to heavy attack.
Swap one damage set for a sustain set.
Or swap some of your damage jewelry enchantments for cost reduction or regen.
People can be so narrowminded when it comes to change.
Wait wait what? Swap weapon/spell damage for cost reduction? Where are you going to pick those numbers back up?
There's no witty way to get around the nerfs. Even my infinite sustain set that will function after the xpac will cost significant amounts of damage. No one upset with the changes is experiencing tunnel vision. A nerf is a nerf, and that loss of damage is going to be something people notice, especially since the changes came with no end to the RNG loot system.
People are still going to be grinding for gear, and now it will be slower. The same content, with no scoring system, no extra loot rewards for excellency, and high probability of getting junk, all the while needing new sets because of sweeping changes so that you can matter in PvE and PvP.
But yeah, no biggie, loot grind is fun right?2 -
Galwylin✭✭✭✭✭I do wish the developers were more involved. So far I've just heard catch phrases. I really need to hear what they want to accomplish because so far its just to make things more difficult and less fun. I guess if that's your goal, maybe I would be quiet too. I get that management of resources is the big thing this go around (we know it wasn't before). Fine, but why is my damage still tied to how high I can raise my resource? And why does this note say its going to be a nerf if I put too much in it? Where do you think points should be going if not main resource? Just simple answers that give a clearer vision of what they want for the game going forward. And try to settle on something so we don't have something out of the blue in six months being the new "resource management". Just step up and be clear. And no more of this knowing something might be a problem but have no plans to address it. You should always have plans to address possible problems.1 -
Knowledge✭✭✭✭✭
✭I do wish the developers were more involved. So far I've just heard catch phrases. I really need to hear what they want to accomplish because so far its just to make things more difficult and less fun. I guess if that's your goal, maybe I would be quiet too. I get that management of resources is the big thing this go around (we know it wasn't before). Fine, but why is my damage still tied to how high I can raise my resource? And why does this note say its going to be a nerf if I put too much in it? Where do you think points should be going if not main resource? Just simple answers that give a clearer vision of what they want for the game going forward. And try to settle on something so we don't have something out of the blue in six months being the new "resource management". Just step up and be clear. And no more of this knowing something might be a problem but have no plans to address it. You should always have plans to address possible problems.
Sometimes you're better off not saying anything at all in this industry. It's a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. On one hand they could provide more communication but then get flamed even harder for that by more people.
It's just like the media in the real world the moment you say something it gets twisted ten different ways.0 -
LadyLavina✭✭✭✭✭
✭The Elder Scrolls Online is much like the company, Google.
It cant fail.
ESO is it folks. there aint nowhere else to go except quit completely and play something entirely different like Destiny.
Not sure if troll or just delusionalPC - NA @LadyLavina 1800+ CP PvP Tank and PvP Healer2 -
Knowledge✭✭✭✭✭
✭LadyLavina wrote: »
Could you elaborate more? You can't just call someone else out and say they are delusional without some sort of explanation why.1 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nobody forces you to heavy attack.
Swap one damage set for a sustain set.
Or swap some of your damage jewelry enchantments for cost reduction or regen.
People can be so narrowminded when it comes to change.
Wait wait what? Swap weapon/spell damage for cost reduction? Where are you going to pick those numbers back up?
There's no witty way to get around the nerfs. Even my infinite sustain set that will function after the xpac will cost significant amounts of damage. No one upset with the changes is experiencing tunnel vision. A nerf is a nerf, and that loss of damage is going to be something people notice, especially since the changes came with no end to the RNG loot system.
People are still going to be grinding for gear, and now it will be slower. The same content, with no scoring system, no extra loot rewards for excellency, and high probability of getting junk, all the while needing new sets because of sweeping changes so that you can matter in PvE and PvP.
But yeah, no biggie, loot grind is fun right?
Loot grind?
You mean for those sets that are selling for scrap right now or deconstructed?
I have never heard a complaint about loot grind or RNG on any of the many whine threads popping out on the forum these days.
Yet, show some alternative to heavy attacking and there you have it: loot grind.
You are basically shifting blame wherever you feel like it, as long as you get to complain about something.1 -
itscompton✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nobody forces you to heavy attack.
Swap one damage set for a sustain set.
Or swap some of your damage jewelry enchantments for cost reduction or regen.
People can be so narrowminded when it comes to change.
Wait wait what? Swap weapon/spell damage for cost reduction? Where are you going to pick those numbers back up?
There's no witty way to get around the nerfs. Even my infinite sustain set that will function after the xpac will cost significant amounts of damage. No one upset with the changes is experiencing tunnel vision. A nerf is a nerf, and that loss of damage is going to be something people notice, especially since the changes came with no end to the RNG loot system.
People are still going to be grinding for gear, and now it will be slower. The same content, with no scoring system, no extra loot rewards for excellency, and high probability of getting junk, all the while needing new sets because of sweeping changes so that you can matter in PvE and PvP.
But yeah, no biggie, loot grind is fun right?
Loot grind?
You mean for those sets that are selling for scrap right now or deconstructed?
I have never heard a complaint about loot grind or RNG on any of the many whine threads popping out on the forum these days.
Yet, show some alternative to heavy attacking and there you have it: loot grind.
You are basically shifting blame wherever you feel like it, as long as you get to complain about something.
LOL, are you serious? Just search "RNG grind" in the forum search. 100+ pages of people discussing the topic and about 95% of it is negative feedback because people don't enjoy being required to run the same dungeon/content 50-100 times to get a sharpened staff or sword from a best in slot set, especially when there is a good chance that BiS set might become completely irrelevant when the next "balance" pass occurs.
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SFDB✭✭✭✭✭
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While I do not think that the class changes are going to have that big a negative effect on the game, I want to point to a couple examples where people did think most were over-reacting and indeed the game was substantially hurt because of it:
1.) SWTOR 5.0 Knight of the Fallen Empire - Galactic Command System. BioWare was heavily warned in beta, by the MMO newsites, and the community upon announcement that it would have a very detrimental effect on the game. This was far, far, far beyond what I have ever seen in reaction in an MMO (and I consider the reaction to the class changes coming in Morrowind along the normal range for an expansion). The didn't listen and there indeed was a massive outflux of player population. In fact, my entire guild moved to ESO as a result and we weren't the only guild to do so.
As was mentioned earlier, KotFE was actually 4.0, but that's appropriate because its role was not insignificant in that. KotFE severely damaged player morale thanks to:
-no new operations
-no new flashpoints
-Star Fortress having severely limited replay value
-Light vs Dark "event" (which was just "make a new character and grind old content")
The game went all-in on story, which alienated a significant number of players. The story-centered players that made up the rest were then divided between those that loved it and those that despised it. The reason for the latter was:
-forcing everyone (light and dark, force-user or non-) to play what is clearly a Jedi Knight story (e.g., forcing a loner smuggler to decide to become a leader and train in the force)
-punishing players who don't want to play a squeaky clean hero (including the Sith)
-making the player a guest in someone else's story instead of being in their own story
-saying that "choices matter" when they don't (what "choices matter" meant was that you can "choose" to do the squeaky clean Jedi Knight option, or you can choose wrong and be punished and humiliated. The most glaring example was in the finale where the game repeatedly gives you the choice to do something, and every time you don't make that choice, you embarrassingly fail, then the most unlikable character in the game saunters in and steals your flagship. And then the game has the nerve to roll credits as if this was awesome and not getting ***-slapped. KotFE's final chapter is like paying for the privilege of getting AIDS.)
KotFE created a LOT of bad blood. KotET came in to try to do damage control - new group content, increasing player importance in their own damn story, and an attempt to make all gameplay relevant. The Command system screwed it up; a pure RNG system was misguided, ESPECIALLY because they did not calibrate the points system properly at all. They tried to sell it as "you'll go up several ranks every hour" when you would be lucky if you could manage a single one in ninety minutes, on a day when your preferred content was given bonuses. Then you'd get that rank and RNG would fail you, and congratulations! You went up a rank and have nothing to show for it at all!
So, 5.0 led to a mass exodus, but that's only because 4.0 paved the way for it. Command ranks was the straw that broke the camel's back, but the camel was only in that state because it had been crushed under an enormous pile of incompetence.
So Morrowind could indeed be SWTOR 4.0, but I don't think it's the 5.0 yet. It will likely create some bad blood, but unlikely to create the same mass exodus we saw over there. That would be whatever comes after, to see if it regains trust from those who feel it was damage to the game.3 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭itscompton wrote: »Nobody forces you to heavy attack.
Swap one damage set for a sustain set.
Or swap some of your damage jewelry enchantments for cost reduction or regen.
People can be so narrowminded when it comes to change.
Wait wait what? Swap weapon/spell damage for cost reduction? Where are you going to pick those numbers back up?
There's no witty way to get around the nerfs. Even my infinite sustain set that will function after the xpac will cost significant amounts of damage. No one upset with the changes is experiencing tunnel vision. A nerf is a nerf, and that loss of damage is going to be something people notice, especially since the changes came with no end to the RNG loot system.
People are still going to be grinding for gear, and now it will be slower. The same content, with no scoring system, no extra loot rewards for excellency, and high probability of getting junk, all the while needing new sets because of sweeping changes so that you can matter in PvE and PvP.
But yeah, no biggie, loot grind is fun right?
Loot grind?
You mean for those sets that are selling for scrap right now or deconstructed?
I have never heard a complaint about loot grind or RNG on any of the many whine threads popping out on the forum these days.
Yet, show some alternative to heavy attacking and there you have it: loot grind.
You are basically shifting blame wherever you feel like it, as long as you get to complain about something.
LOL, are you serious? Just search "RNG grind" in the forum search. 100+ pages of people discussing the topic and about 95% of it is negative feedback because people don't enjoy being required to run the same dungeon/content 50-100 times to get a sharpened staff or sword from a best in slot set, especially when there is a good chance that BiS set might become completely irrelevant when the next "balance" pass occurs.
The key word is these days.
People whine about sustain, not loot grind.0