Nerfing BSW with no Necro nerf another slap in the face to every non-Sorc

sharquez · May 2017

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

nerf scamp and liquid lightning damage by about 5%-8% each, reduce splash damage from lighting staves by 5%

Do this and sorcerers won't be so overpowered, necro won't be useless and other classes will have a chance to participate in content again instead of "sorc or gtfo"

Who the heck is stopping you from doing content? Do it or dont. If you got people who are saying your not allowed to come unless you are this or that don't play with them, they are jerks who aren't deserving of your time.

Neighbor wrote: »

40,000 x 0.95 (assuming these changes would lead to a raw 5% decrease in damage, which they wouldn't even) = 38,000

Still miles ahead of every other class. Sorc abilities need significant damage nerfs. Atleast 30% to things like scamps, and some reasonable nerfs to Curse and LL too.

You are really going on a hate crusade because one class kills robots slightly better than others for points that don't matter?
Leave the sorcs alone. You are forgetting the first rule of any game: Have fun. This isn't a human rights violation, or mass genocide, one classes numbers are higher when using a certain subset of gear and skills. So what? Something will always be optimal it doesn't make what anyone else does less valid or viable.

Sugaroverdose · May 2017

Transairion wrote: »

I don't get why people in this thread keep bringing up stuff like "wow remember when sorc pets used to be so bad." That has literally nothing to do with the point of this thread. It doesn't matter how the game "used to be."

It has everything to do with this thread, considering it wasn't so long ago it was begged for Necropotence to LOSE the pet requirement so it could match the generic +2000 stamina set (I forget the name). Pet Sorcs in general were also considered a gimmick that didn't work, with threads to make them "unable to steal buffs" by not being able to be buffed at all ingame.

One single Sorc build happens to be meta, and it (ab)uses the Volatile Familiar bugfix to Pulse crit spam out high DPS.

Blinding nerfing an item set "because it's in the meta now" after existing for literally YEARS in a balanced, niche state where Sorcs didn't even normally use it is an insane leap of logic. You know people still want to use things after the meta crowd drops it like a hot potato right?

I'd rather the Scamp's bugfix be reverted or summons unable to crit than having the Scamp's damage gutted to weaker-than-pre-bugfix levels to deal with a single build. Same with Necropotence, except that has already been nerfed TWICE throughout it's lifetime (it was originally gave 12% of your max magicka. Then 10%. Then 4000 like now. It STILL wasn't popular because of pet requirement). It was the only set in the game for pet builds for a long time.

3 of 5 classes in game can benefit from it too much to ignore, replacing max magicka 2/3/4 set effects with something different will bring it to the line with destruction mastery, where it should be

Right, it was so amazingly good all this time that only Nightblades ever used it because Shades are immortal and only take one bar slot total? Where were you championing Necropotence, what, even a 6 months ago?

Destruction Mastery doesn't have a pet requirement, and Necropotence is literally just a resource booster because it was designed for Pet Sorcerors back when the only scaling pets had WAS max magicka. You change Necropotence to "Combat Pets do 50% more damage" then sure, but it's literally the original Pet Sorc set... you start giving it crappy set effects that have nothing to do with pets, and you destroy the only purpose it has.

Where's sets originally designed for magdk what makes it live forever and have ridiculous damage or at least killing everything on sight? For magplars? Don't know? I'm also, so it's OP because it gives too much which other classes can't get at all.

KhajiitHasSkooma · May 2017

Draqone wrote: »

It's not necro that's the problem, it's the sorc damage numbers.

Its not the sorc damage numbers, its all the other classes lack of damage.

Sugaroverdose · May 2017

KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »

Draqone wrote: »

It's not necro that's the problem, it's the sorc damage numbers.

Its not the sorc damage numbers, its all the other classes lack of damage.

Single primer of statements which made LA and MA underperforming due to powercreep "don't touch my build and rotation which i repeat for a half of the year without any changes" f guitarhero

Malamar1229 · May 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

The gap in DPS parses is already absolutely massive. 40k+ from Sorc pet builds whereas Mag DK and Mag Templar are at ~32k and Mag NB at ~30k.

BSW is absolutely essential for Mag DKs and Mag Templars. Mag Sorcs have access to one of the most broken, overtuned sets in the game to use with their overpowered pet build.

Once again, Zenimax gives a huge middle finger to any non-Sorc player in ESO.

Malamar1229 · May 2017

The fact you cant attack that little warden netch makes this set pretty OP on them. So they need to change something with the warden. Make the netch attackable.

Stamden · May 2017

Tagging the devs here because I think this is an idea that really needs to get through to them. @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel

Do I think BSW deserved a nerf? Honestly maybe. It's BiS for an extremely large amount of magika setups in the game and very strong.

But that's not what this is about. The change indirectly increases the gap between Sorcs and everyone else by even more. The problem is: Because Sorcs are so overpowered, it makes trying to balance the rest of the game a complete mess. When Zenimax makes all these changes to things to things like resource management and item sets before balancing Sorcerers, it just creates even more of a mess.

The core game balance will ALWAYS be a disaster until Sorcerers are in-line with everyone else. Making adjustments to sustain, item sets, etc is like trying to polish a turd. You can clean it and polish it all you want, but it is still going to be a turd.

Fix the core fundamental problem, Sorcerers, and then make the more minor adjustments to things like item sets.

The same thing applies to Stam Sorc too. You cannot properly gauge the balance between stamina vs. magika and balance stamina when one particular stamina setup is so much better than the rest.

seedubsrun · May 2017

I agree that the issue with sorcerers is the damage of the skills not the necropotence set itself. An actual class balance should allow any class that is intelligently set up and used with skill to parse around 35k consistently. Sorcs would have to take a bit of a nerf and all other classes would get a buff. (I'm a sorc main btw and would happily support this. 5%-8% more DPS than all other classes is a bit much. I have friends that I recently talked into playing the game and I feel bad about it now because one wants to be a Templar healer and the other a stamina NB. It would be great to be excited with them about the potential of their characters) Balance by taking an in-depth look at skills and their utility across all classes, armor types, and weapon types. If sorcs are ZOS' favorite then use their numbers as a base for other classes skills. If you want to lower the ceiling and raise the floor, that's where you do it. Reduce sorcs DPS output potential by 10% and raise all other classes by that much. I think we can all agree that there are some skills that are basically useless and under performing as well as many that just don't fit in a rotation regardless of whether we like them or not. The ability to have more varied rotations gives the ability to have more varied builds. The next step would be to take the time to refresh existing armor sets and not doing it with a "nerf it all" mentality but by putting significantly more sets on par with whatever is already good. That would create even more build diversity. What's the point in having so many armor options when 90% of them are terrible or at least just not as good as the other 10%. Wouldn't it be great to have to redo your build because there's suddenly so many great options instead of because the BiS got nerfed and now we all need second best? Then release it in a PTS that doesn't also have a thousand other little changes so it can be properly tested. C'mon ZOS. Cool it on the nerfs and the making the game harder for just a bit and take the next 6 months to just make the game better instead. Give us the golden age of ESO that loyal players deserve, a set of patch notes that light up the forums with positive comments, and something that isn't just for new players.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO · May 2017

I don't see any reason for necro to be nerfed:

Pros: it gives a bit higher DPS compared to an easy to obtain Julianos
3000 magicka ~ 300 spell damage
Therefore the advantage on 1000 extra magicka is not that big

Cons: it requires a pet to be sloted on the front and back bar and to be active at all times. If the pet dies, the 5 piece bonus is gone and it would require resources to spawn the pet again.

The set is currently in a perfect balance place. Nerfing it with with as much as 500 magicka will render it useless. And buffing it with more than 500 magicka will make it OP.

Magıc · May 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

- ZOS does listen to player feedback, but in this case don't care: they are fine with sorcs consistently outperforming other classes in PVE by gross margins.

Unfortunately, I think this is the most likely case. What is scary is that it goes beyond just PvE overperformance, it's just that PvE has the easiest data to analyze so it's very clear when the Zenimax is blatantly choosing to ignore the problem. The problem extends to every aspect of the Sorcerer class in all aspects of the game. When we look at PvP, Mag Sorcs are also complete monsters right now and Stam Sorc will always be the best stam/hybrid setup in the game. In no aspect of the game is the class of Sorcerer not best-in-class or top tier. It is obvious that Zenimax has a huge bias toward this class and this has been going on for years.

Wait until you see Stamplar next patch. You'll think Mag Sorcs are ***.

Pets are overtuned. Before pets got buffed, Sorcs were competing with the other classes nicely. Pets get buffed and are doing literally 11k ST added onto the usual Sorc DPS are they become monsters in PVE.

Necro isn't the problem, pets are. But Zos loves pet sorcs, it's why they're pushing all PVPers to use pets as well as the PVErs. So I doubt much will change.

Transairion · May 2017

Pets are overtuned. Before pets got buffed, Sorcs were competing with the other classes nicely. Pets get buffed and are doing literally 11k ST added onto the usual Sorc DPS are they become monsters in PVE.

Necro isn't the problem, pets are. But Zos loves pet sorcs, it's why they're pushing all PVPers to use pets as well as the PVErs. So I doubt much will change.

Pets have been doing "background DPS" with their basic attacks since the launch of the game... yet they were never considered viable for just about any content. You do know pet DPS hasn't been changed almost ever, right? Sorc DPS in the past never took pets into account because they were never considered worth the downside of taking up slots on every single bar.

One single bugfix to Volatile Familiar caused this. Volatile Familiar is also perhaps the ONLY pet that is considered viable as it does so much damage after the bugfix, so all the references to "pets OP" is kind of nonsense. Where's the Twilight builds, Antronach builds?

It's one single pet, in one particular build.

Before this particular bugfix, nobody used Familiar still and it did the highest DPS of all combat pets. Explain that if they've been supposedly OP all this time, why weren't they used?

peak99 · May 2017

Necro isn't OP, volatile Familiar is OP. (*note familiar is not viable in all trials/content, at least not on console where we can't control him so well)

BSW was OP, needed nerf.

close thread.

Aedaryl · May 2017

Volatile familiar is not OP at all.

Liquid lighting is.

Fmaliar damage pulse :

- Deals about 1k more dps than LL.
- You need 2 slots for it
- You need a skill (deadric pray) for make it work
- You need 1 set for make it work
- You need to manage the pet
- Pet can be kill and you need to recast him (1.5 s) and you lost DPS
- Pet can not being play in some trials
- PET is strong only against 1 target (because it deal 55% less damage if the target has not deadric pray on him).

VS

Liquid ligthing :

Nothing needed to make it work
Deal less 1k damage on single target but far more damage in AoE.

What's OP ?

Paraflex · May 2017

They pretty much made necro the best build for mag next patch....how do sets like necro even make it this far in the game without a nerf ? Over performing for sure.

spiiros · May 2017

Aedaryl wrote: »

Volatile familiar is not OP at all.

Liquid lighting is.

Fmaliar damage pulse :

- Deals about 1k more dps than LL.
- You need 2 slots for it
- You need a skill (deadric pray) for make it work
- You need 1 set for make it work
- You need to manage the pet
- Pet can be kill and you need to recast him (1.5 s) and you lost DPS
- Pet can not being play in some trials
- PET is strong only against 1 target (because it deal 55% less damage if the target has not deadric pray on him).

VS

Liquid ligthing :

Nothing needed to make it work
Deal less 1k damage on single target but far more damage in AoE.

What's OP ?

Uh....

You can use Necro and Pet build in every HM trial currently efficiently.

Literally the only reason Sorc is hitting so much harder is because of the pet.

liviogc · May 2017

Well, there are moments that pet is not viable in triais, Ultimos boss of AA is an example. The difference is this. Pet is really strong but has situations that have to pull it off.

Akimbro · May 2017

Sorcs can't even use pets consistently...

Merlin13KAGL · May 2017

Quit with the "us" and "them" bs, please.

It affects Sorc too - not everyone wants to run a bet build.

Malamar1229 · May 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

Tagging the devs here because I think this is an idea that really needs to get through to them. @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel

Do I think BSW deserved a nerf? Honestly maybe. It's BiS for an extremely large amount of magika setups in the game and very strong.

But that's not what this is about. The change indirectly increases the gap between Sorcs and everyone else by even more. The problem is: Because Sorcs are so overpowered, it makes trying to balance the rest of the game a complete mess. When Zenimax makes all these changes to things to things like resource management and item sets before balancing Sorcerers, it just creates even more of a mess.

The core game balance will ALWAYS be a disaster until Sorcerers are in-line with everyone else. Making adjustments to sustain, item sets, etc is like trying to polish a turd. You can clean it and polish it all you want, but it is still going to be a turd.

Fix the core fundamental problem, Sorcerers, and then make the more minor adjustments to things like item sets.

The same thing applies to Stam Sorc too. You cannot properly gauge the balance between stamina vs. magika and balance stamina when one particular stamina setup is so much better than the rest.

Stop parading for nerfs because you are bad at the game. I regularly see sorcs getting torn up in Cyrodiil, and I regularly tear up sorcs on my MDK and stamblade.

Your issues lay within skills/sets available to everyone and not specific to the sorc class.

SanTii.92 · May 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

The same thing applies to Stam Sorc too. You cannot properly gauge the balance between stamina vs. magika and balance stamina when one particular stamina setup is so much better than the rest.

Where on earth you got this from? legit curious. Cause they aren't any better than stam templars, nbs and now wardens, and are on par with dks.

Besides, sorcs benefits the most from bsw on pvp, so yes the nerf affected them. a lot.

seedubsrun · May 2017

I heard June's Crown Store will feature legendary level protest signs that say things like "Nerf all sorcs" and "My resources, my choice". There will also be a new personality where your character shakes their fist and says "Hey Hey, Hoe Hoe, Dark Exchange has got to go!". Meeting spot will be in front of the Wayrest Treasury where we'll all successfully stick it to the man.

Stamden · May 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

The same thing applies to Stam Sorc too. You cannot properly gauge the balance between stamina vs. magika and balance stamina when one particular stamina setup is so much better than the rest.

Where on earth you got this from? legit curious. Cause they aren't any better than stam templars, nbs and now wardens, and are on par with dks.

Besides, sorcs benefits the most from bsw on pvp, so yes the nerf affected them. a lot.

As I'm sure you're aware, heavy armor is extremely powerful in PvP. However, no class other than Stam Sorc can effectively run heavy due to all the sustain changes and nerfs.

Stam DKs, for example, relied on the % based Stam return from helping hands and battle roar. Without that, they are either going to be a) running out of resources immediately in heavy or b) forced to run medium.

Because Dark Deal gives such an insane amount of stats back, Stam Sorcs can still run heavy armor fine and they are the only class that can do this. For this reason, Stam Sorcs have a huge advantage over every other stam class.

Akimbro · May 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

The same thing applies to Stam Sorc too. You cannot properly gauge the balance between stamina vs. magika and balance stamina when one particular stamina setup is so much better than the rest.

Where on earth you got this from? legit curious. Cause they aren't any better than stam templars, nbs and now wardens, and are on par with dks.

Besides, sorcs benefits the most from bsw on pvp, so yes the nerf affected them. a lot.

As I'm sure you're aware, heavy armor is extremely powerful in PvP. However, no class other than Stam Sorc can effectively run heavy due to all the sustain changes and nerfs.

Stam DKs, for example, relied on the % based Stam return from helping hands and battle roar. Without that, they are either going to be a) running out of resources immediately in heavy or b) forced to run medium.

Because Dark Deal gives such an insane amount of stats back, Stam Sorcs can still run heavy armor fine and they are the only class that can do this. For this reason, Stam Sorcs have a huge advantage over every other stam class.

I wouldn't call sitting there and spamming dark deal fine.

Arkangeloski · May 2017

casparian wrote: »

And another thing: I also don't want to see a Necro nerf. It's such a cool set for pet users (not just sorcs), and I'm quite happy there's a set that gives pet builds an actually endgame-relevant buff for having pets out.

Now all we need are buffs to the other classes/their sets.

It was already nerfed once

TARAFRAKA · May 2017

Arkangeloski wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

And another thing: I also don't want to see a Necro nerf. It's such a cool set for pet users (not just sorcs), and I'm quite happy there's a set that gives pet builds an actually endgame-relevant buff for having pets out.

Now all we need are buffs to the other classes/their sets.

It was already nerfed once

TWICE

Tamorand · December 2017

Someone has to be on top.

Just like every game ever, one class is better than the rest. They get nerfed, now NB's are the best..."NERF NB!"....Now DKs are the best....etc etc etc.

It's naive to think ZOS doesn't know or see the numbers. Choosing to speculate in black and white instead of being patient and letting the developing process run it's course is kinda silly.

Misery loves company.

Vahrokh · December 2017

....

Banana · December 2017