Not gonna happen. ZoS wants players to rely on more than one mean of defense. Except if that defense is shield, block, healing, passive mitigation or big HP pool.

Medium armor lul -> no bonus to healing, small passive mitigation, no bonus to HP, blocking is the most expensive of any builds in the game, using main defense punished by stacking cost, all shields in the game scaling of the 2 worst resources

I could get behind this if it only applied to those wearing 5 or more medium armor. Or how about add a damage reduction percentage per piece. Like 2% per. So at 7 pieces you'd reduce at 14%. I think 50% would be far too much.

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I could get behind this if it only applied to those wearing 5 or more medium armor. Or how about add a damage reduction percentage per piece. Like 2% per. So at 7 pieces you'd reduce at 14%. I think 50% would be far too much.

This part is understandable and arguable. Personally i'd make it apply to everybody, to promote consistency. I'm not aware of any non-med pvp spec that becomes so much stronger in the result of this change, that we need to limit the change to medium only.

But yes, main target of the change is obvious medium armor builds.

Yea, most of those are melee range, horrible ground targets, and low dmg compared to their single target cousins.
If dodge rolling is used as a single defense, there should be a counter to that defense. This is to promote using the correct skill at the same time.

Right now, dodge roll will provide root immunity which is a perfect change for the fact they added undodgable attacks. They do need to change one specific ability that's at range but that's for another thread in another forum lol. I agree they need to provide snare immunity (but then again that is probably why they gave shuffle that ability.)

I do think light/medium armor should have their stam/mag costs returned. Medium armor could have a cheaper cost for dodge roll (so ideally all classes can benefit) but the stack cost fatigue needs to remain. Think about it: try to dodge roll in real life. How many rolls can you do before you realize that pizza-gut isn't healthy? lol. Jokes aside, it makes sense to have that fatigue given how numerous those builds used dodge roll as an preemptive dmg mitigation instead of an active (which is clear that its to be used for certain skills not to avoid them all passively.

Shields are weak in comparison to dodging. As much as people want them to be critable, they currently take full tooltip and are now executable so it puts pressure on the recasting people do. If the classes received reliable CC's that break block, I think this would promote better counter play than trying to hard-nerf shields (and why templars are so pissed our shards keep being changes; its our only cc that breaks block.)

Dorrino wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I could get behind this if it only applied to those wearing 5 or more medium armor. Or how about add a damage reduction percentage per piece. Like 2% per. So at 7 pieces you'd reduce at 14%. I think 50% would be far too much.

This part is understandable and arguable. Personally i'd make it apply to everybody, to promote consistency. I'm not aware of any non-med pvp spec that becomes so much stronger in the result of this change, that we need to limit the change to medium only.

But yes, main target of the change is obvious medium armor builds.

Heh. make the well-fitted trait reduce the amount of damage you take while dodgerolling as well. be interesting to see if people take that over impen, which I doubt, since dodgeroll would still have the Dodge Fatigue cost at all times, whereas Impen is always up, even when dodgerolling.

Minno wrote: »

Yea, most of those are melee range, horrible ground targets, and low dmg compared to their single target cousins.

Actually all aoe abilities that i mentioned are average (jabs) to very high damage ones (all ults).

Minno wrote: »

If dodge rolling is used as a single defense, there should be a counter to that defense. This is to promote using the correct skill at the same time.

Blocking and shielding does not require 'using the correct skill at the same time'. They are universally potent:)

Minno wrote: »

Right now, dodge roll will provide root immunity which is a perfect change for the fact they added undodgable attacks. They do need to change one specific ability that's at range but that's for another thread in another forum lol. I agree they need to provide snare immunity (but then again that is probably why they gave shuffle that ability.)

Not immunity, mind you. Just snare removal. So you can immediately get snared again. Immunity would invalidate shuffle, forward momentum and rapids.

Minno wrote: »

I do think light/medium armor should have their stam/mag costs returned. Medium armor could have a cheaper cost for dodge roll (so ideally all classes can benefit) but the stack cost fatigue needs to remain. Think about it: try to dodge roll in real life. How many rolls can you do before you realize that pizza-gut isn't healthy? lol. Jokes aside, it makes sense to have that fatigue given how numerous those builds used dodge roll as an preemptive dmg mitigation instead of an active (which is clear that its to be used for certain skills not to avoid them all passively.

Will not help the current issue. It's not the cost that is the problem, it's the fact it does NOT serve as a good defense against many skills AND that some circumstances dodging puts you in an inferior state than blocking/shielding, which i think is not acceptable for a pure defensive skill.

Dorrino wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I'd rather not have extremely tanky heavy armor builds have access to something like this. Though if it were like a flat percentage of damage reduction per piece of medium armor, everyone could have some access to it. Overall, your suggestion is a very neat idea that ZoS should possibly consider. Medium and Light armor both need buffs, this would be a good start.

Yep, heavy armor builds come to mind first. But none of them utilize or even CAN utilize dodgerolls to any noticeable extent.

50% reduction was chosen to promote consistency yet again. More and more abilities damage straight through a dodgeroll, thus to keep it being a mitigation ability i think we need to give it a mitigation, comparable to blocking (yet 50% is on the lowest add of blocking).

I guess what I mean is that I'd rather something like this go into medium armor because it would be a great incentive. As it stands now, I can just see the heavy armor stam sorc dodging for mitigation around a corner, spamming dark deal getting back full stam and then rinse repeat. Would rather mitigation come from armor incentives over access to everyone in whatever build.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Heh. make the well-fitted trait reduce the amount of damage you take while dodgerolling as well. be interesting to see if people take that over impen, which I doubt, since dodgeroll would still have the Dodge Fatigue cost at all times, whereas Impen is always up, even when dodgerolling.

Won't work:) Then medium builds will have to choose how they prefer to die:) In a dodge roll or outside of it:D

ManDraKE wrote: »

The problem with dodge roll is that is very effective, o completely useless. Dodge roll is the main defense of medium armor builds (equivalent to shields in light and block/mitigation in heavy), and it can be really powerful (completely avoid damage of dodgeable attacks) or completely useless (undodgeable attacks). Given the nature of the PvP in this game, you can't simple watch your enemy and see "ok, is a channel so i shouldn't dodge roll", because you may have 10 guys attacking you from different angles. If i'm being attacked by multiple players, i want my main source of defense in medium armor to be reliable as shields or blocking. ATM there is a plethora of undodgeable stuff, all groups have players spamming Lightning Staff HA, Radiant Destruction, Soul Assault, etc etc, as a medium armor player you have 0 defense against that besides running away or LoS.

QFT #1

ManDraKE wrote: »

I understand that making everything dodgeable is a bad idea, you don't want ppl to be completely inmune to dmg, but filling the game with undodgeable stuff kills medium armor.

QFT #2

ManDraKE wrote: »

What @Dorrino suggested can be an alternative, i'm not sure that is the best one, but i'm open to anything that makes dodge roll a viable defense for the usual combat situations of this game, and not a defense that is OP against ppl without undodgeable stuff, and is useless against ppl with undodgeable stuff

That's the best i was able to come up with, without overbuffing dodgeroll (which is REALLY easy to do).

ManDraKE wrote: »

Meanwhile, for god sake, don't leave Cliff Racer as undodgeable, Cyrodrill is going to be infested with Wardens for the first couple of months after Morrowind.

This change would make even cliffracers quite manageable:) All-in-one solution.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Think of channeled abilities as "following the player" such that dodgeroll is ineffective. I think dodgeroll should stay the same, as a dodgeroll build is countered by these channeled abilities. Dodgeroll shouldn't reduce all damage taken, like shields, as it gives the player the added bonus of moving their location + CC breaking. Whereas using a shield, the player becomes somewhat immobile, and a much more visible target.

Do I think there should be a stacking cost for dodgeroll? Yes, and no. I think that the Dodge fatigue should only be applied to the player upon breaking out of a root ability using dodgeroll, and dodgerolling after that will not apply (or reset) Dodge fatigue again (unless rooted again). Otherwise it should remain the same cost.

My question for you in regards to the CC while in dodgeroll - is this a result of a channel? or an ability such as Piercing Javelin?

Dawnbreker.

Minno wrote: »

Yea, most of those are melee range, horrible ground targets, and low dmg compared to their single target cousins.
If dodge rolling is used as a single defense, there should be a counter to that defense. This is to promote using the correct skill at the same time.

Right now, dodge roll will provide root immunity which is a perfect change for the fact they added undodgable attacks. They do need to change one specific ability that's at range but that's for another thread in another forum lol. I agree they need to provide snare immunity (but then again that is probably why they gave shuffle that ability.)

I do think light/medium armor should have their stam/mag costs returned. Medium armor could have a cheaper cost for dodge roll (so ideally all classes can benefit) but the stack cost fatigue needs to remain. Think about it: try to dodge roll in real life. How many rolls can you do before you realize that pizza-gut isn't healthy? lol. Jokes aside, it makes sense to have that fatigue given how numerous those builds used dodge roll as an preemptive dmg mitigation instead of an active (which is clear that its to be used for certain skills not to avoid them all passively.

Shields are weak in comparison to dodging. As much as people want them to be critable, they currently take full tooltip and are now executable so it puts pressure on the recasting people do. If the classes received reliable CC's that break block, I think this would promote better counter play than trying to hard-nerf shields (and why templars are so pissed our shards keep being changes; its our only cc that breaks block.)

Respectfully disagree. There is far less counters to other defenses. And they can be used as single defense far more often. Nothing in this game promotes using the right skill at the time currently. If you are shieldstacker, you spam. If you are blocker you hold.

Root immunity is something medium builds always had from shuffle. Making that change less desirable than for any other build in the game.

Cheaper cost to skills or dodge roll does not solve anything. The problem is not how often you can dodge roll, but how often it does not protect you properly. (In that case I agree with you, fatigue should remain). Dodge roll is probably the least effective and most expensive preemptive defense (tho better for running away from people than for example blocking)

Single shields are weak, but stacked are not weaker than dodge rolling. You can hold them almost permanently and react to damage after it is dealt. They are executable and so is player with HP at execute range (four of those executes even counter dodge).

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I could get behind this if it only applied to those wearing 5 or more medium armor. Or how about add a damage reduction percentage per piece. Like 2% per. So at 7 pieces you'd reduce at 14%. I think 50% would be far too much.

agreed, 50% is too much, and i also agree this should be a 5pc medium requirement. HOWEVER, this would just buff gank blades the most and they already roll a *** ton so ill pass on this lol

I don't mind gankblades being rollie pollies. Means they failed their gank. At this point in time medium armor just needs an incentive. Feel like adding something for survivability like this would go a long way when it comes down to choices. I just firmly believe players should not have access to everything in any build.

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Well me bringing up stam sorc is just an example of how broken this could be if there wasnt an armor requirement tied to it. If such a change were to happen, and I think it would be a good change, it should be an armor incentive. That way stamina builds have to make a solid choice. Like, hey I want to be tankier overall so I'll choose heavy. Or, hey I want some more sustain with a bit of extra mitigation so I'll choose medium. Just examples, but it would make your armor more meaningful.

I definitely agree with your reasoning. I still feel that giving this benefit to everybody will allow for a more consistent gameplay without overbuffing non-med builds.

If a heavy armor wearer decides to use his secondary defense mechanism (dodge), i think he still deserves for the dodge to put him in a better state, since it costs him more. It's more important for him for dodges to work, than even for med.

But again this is arguable and just buffing med armor with this change would be a huge step in itself.

Dorrino wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Yea, most of those are melee range, horrible ground targets, and low dmg compared to their single target cousins.

Actually all aoe abilities that i mentioned are average (jabs) to very high damage ones (all ults).

Minno wrote: »

If dodge rolling is used as a single defense, there should be a counter to that defense. This is to promote using the correct skill at the same time.

Blocking and shielding does not require 'using the correct skill at the same time'. They are universally potent:)

Minno wrote: »

Right now, dodge roll will provide root immunity which is a perfect change for the fact they added undodgable attacks. They do need to change one specific ability that's at range but that's for another thread in another forum lol. I agree they need to provide snare immunity (but then again that is probably why they gave shuffle that ability.)

Not immunity, mind you. Just snare removal. So you can immediately get snared again. Immunity would invalidate shuffle, forward momentum and rapids.

Minno wrote: »

I do think light/medium armor should have their stam/mag costs returned. Medium armor could have a cheaper cost for dodge roll (so ideally all classes can benefit) but the stack cost fatigue needs to remain. Think about it: try to dodge roll in real life. How many rolls can you do before you realize that pizza-gut isn't healthy? lol. Jokes aside, it makes sense to have that fatigue given how numerous those builds used dodge roll as an preemptive dmg mitigation instead of an active (which is clear that its to be used for certain skills not to avoid them all passively.

Will not help the current issue. It's not the cost that is the problem, it's the fact it does NOT serve as a good defense against many skills AND that some circumstances dodging puts you in an inferior state than blocking/shielding, which i think is not acceptable for a pure defensive skill.

-We can run through each AOE ability to make sure they are not harming dodge roll too much. Ultimates should be undodgable if they are AOE based, as well as beamed based. Soul Assualt should be changed to single target (to match two hander.) this way it can be dodgable and to promote templars as the class that can hard counter dodge as a class identity and the fact some of those channels are low dmg (1k per tick is low compared to other abilities.) For purfying light, I think the end dmg should be dodgable to promote chaining an undodgable cc to gain that high dmg the skill provides. But for haunting curse, that ability has no reason to passively add a second undodgable dmg burst anyway. The dmg should be swapped between purfying light/haunting curse but with one being able to dodge/the other undodgable.
- blocking should be used in bursts, and for some builds it has to be used in that way or you'll burn that stam. Shields also work in this way. Yes I can recast it, but against NB/sorcs/stam DKs its gone as fast as I can cast it. Therefore its use justifies it being used as a skill that counters a high burst skill due to the costs (3.5k-3.8k on pts.) I do think if they make shields to only be on once at a time would solve a great many problems without harming the intent for shields (as a counter to high burst or help protect your health while you try to heal up.)
- Yes I agree for snare. Not immunity but removal. This was other classes and builds can have access. Maybe at 5 pc med you can gain resources back for breaking the snares? (similar to using Honor the Dead at 70% health?)
- it will help to offset the negatives. currently no one runs medium/light unless they want a challenge. Heavy should have it's dmg passive removed(they should have to build for dmg whereas light/medium have to build for defense; makes it more balanced on paper.)

But ultimately any change still needs to have all skills/abilites/sets reviewed and time after time its been proven we just don't see the level of consistency from ZoS to review these changes. Im down for buffing dodge rolling; just giving my thoughts from a magplar perspective where my skills are clunky in design yet have functionality against dodge defenses (and you've seen my dodgy-weird non-meta magplar build in open cyro. so im also coming at this from the position of benefiting from using dodge roll too lol.)

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I could get behind this if it only applied to those wearing 5 or more medium armor. Or how about add a damage reduction percentage per piece. Like 2% per. So at 7 pieces you'd reduce at 14%. I think 50% would be far too much.

agreed, 50% is too much, and i also agree this should be a 5pc medium requirement. HOWEVER, this would just buff gank blades the most and they already roll a *** ton so ill pass on this lol

I don't mind gankblades being rollie pollies. Means they failed their gank. At this point in time medium armor just needs an incentive. Feel like adding something for survivability like this would go a long way when it comes down to choices. I just firmly believe players should not have access to everything in any build.

u dont need any more incentive, heavy armor sustain on pts is baad. non cp is reeeeally bad. vast majority of stam users are going to be in medium. even in med sustain is bad. heavy is barely an option unless you just want to be a tank

I'm sure there is a better idea. People talk about how this game is getting dumbed down, how there are no counters, and now we want to make every single type of attack, regardless of what it is do 50% damage against dodging? Doesn''t blocking already do this?

I'm not even sure this is something I'd want. I play magicka so I'm no expert on dodge rolling, but when I do dodge roll, I'm pretty sure I avoid more than 50% of the incoming damage that was targeted at me. I personally would prefer a different form of defense that was very strong Vs. some attacks even though it's useless Vs. others. Not only does it promote thinking and quite frankly more interesting game-play, but I'm pretty sure with some skill and experience I'd be better off. If I see a sorcerer casting fragments, damn it I want to dodge that and avoid it entirely. Blocking already serves as the stamina draining default 50% mitigation mechanic, I'd rather not have another one that simply allows me to be more mobile.

As a stamplar I mostly support this. Though I would prefer dodge duration be changed to 2 seconds, and some abilities remain un-dodge-able