Suggestion: make dodgeroll mitigate damage taken

Dorrino

Currently dodgeroll is a unique type of damage mitigation when you spend stamina to fully avoid incoming attacks. But 2 types of attacks go through dodgeroll drastically reducing its effectiveness.

These attack types are channeled damage skills (soul assault, radiant destruction, templar jabs) and aoe skills (destruction ults, jabs again, dawnbreaker and dragon leap). This puts dodgerolls in a peculiar spot when you spend your resources for better defense, but instead you're locked from blocking for 1sec while in the dodgeroll while receiving full damage from a subset of attacks.

This, along with stacking dodge fatigue and ability to get cc-ed while in a dodgeroll, makes dodgerolls an inferior main damage mitigation mechanics compared to blocking (which contributes to heavy pvp meta on live as one of the major factors).

I propose to add 50% incoming damage mitigation for the duration of a dodgeroll (1sec). This will not affect dots already on the player and will only be applied to the new incoming damage sources while in the dodgeroll.

This way using dodgeroll will give some benefits even in the worst case scenario and still allows counter a dodgerolling player by using both aoe CCs and single target disorients (vampire drain, fossilize etc).

PS. While we're at it, we might want to make dodgerolls to remove snares in addition to roots. People have been complaining about the overabundance of snares in the game for quite a while, so i think an ability to remove them without adding a snare-immunity would be a very much welcome change.-

SodanTok

Not gonna happen. ZoS wants players to rely on more than one mean of defense. Except if that defense is shield, block, healing, passive mitigation or big HP pool.

Medium armor lul -> no bonus to healing, small passive mitigation, no bonus to HP, blocking is the most expensive of any builds in the game, using main defense punished by stacking cost, all shields in the game scaling of the 2 worst resources

Avran_Sylt

Think of channeled abilities as "following the player" such that dodgeroll is ineffective. I think dodgeroll should stay the same, as a dodgeroll build is countered by these channeled abilities. Dodgeroll shouldn't reduce all damage taken, like shields, as it gives the player the added bonus of moving their location + CC breaking. Whereas using a shield, the player becomes somewhat immobile, and a much more visible target.

Do I think there should be a stacking cost for dodgeroll? Yes, and no. I think that the Dodge fatigue should only be applied to the player upon breaking out of a root ability using dodgeroll, and dodgerolling after that will not apply (or reset) Dodge fatigue again (unless rooted again). Otherwise it should remain the same cost.

My question for you in regards to the CC while in dodgeroll - is this a result of a channel? or an ability such as Piercing Javelin?

DisgracefulMind

I could get behind this if it only applied to those wearing 5 or more medium armor. Or how about add a damage reduction percentage per piece. Like 2% per. So at 7 pieces you'd reduce at 14%. I think 50% would be far too much.

Dorrino

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Think of channeled abilities as "following the player" such that dodgeroll is ineffective. I think dodgeroll should stay the same, as a dodgeroll build is countered by these channeled abilities.

While 'block builds' and 'shield builds' are not. I'm not sure why dodgeroll should have a unique disadvantage any other damage mitigation mechanics do not possess.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Dodgeroll shouldn't reduce all damage taken, like shields, as it gives the player the added bonus of moving their location + CC breaking.

CC breaking with dodgeroll?

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Whereas using a shield, the player becomes somewhat immobile, and a much more visible target.

Location change is not of much relevance since you can't los an attack already homing at you.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Do I think there should be a stacking cost for dodgeroll? Yes, and no. I think that the Dodge fatigue should only be applied to the player upon breaking out of a root ability using dodgeroll, and dodgerolling after that will not apply (or reset) Dodge fatigue again (unless rooted again). Otherwise it should remain the same cost.

I disagree with this. Unlimited dodge rolls are even worse for pvp in this game than block meta.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

My question for you in regards to the CC while in dodgeroll - is this a result of a channel? or an ability such as Piercing Javelin?

Any CC ability that can HIT you, while in a dodgeroll, CCs you in the mid of the dodgeroll. So each aoe cc and each disorient.

To add an insult to injury, while in the middle of a dodgeroll you're in a global cd from that dodgeroll. So when you're hit by a cc in a dodgeroll you can't break free immediately. You need to wait out the global cd. Unlike blocking.

Dorrino

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I could get behind this if it only applied to those wearing 5 or more medium armor. Or how about add a damage reduction percentage per piece. Like 2% per. So at 7 pieces you'd reduce at 14%. I think 50% would be far too much.

This part is understandable and arguable. Personally i'd make it apply to everybody, to promote consistency. I'm not aware of any non-med pvp spec that becomes so much stronger in the result of this change, that we need to limit the change to medium only.

But yes, main target of the change is obvious medium armor builds.

DisgracefulMind

Dorrino wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I could get behind this if it only applied to those wearing 5 or more medium armor. Or how about add a damage reduction percentage per piece. Like 2% per. So at 7 pieces you'd reduce at 14%. I think 50% would be far too much.

This part is understandable and arguable. Personally i'd make it apply to everybody, to promote consistency. I'm not aware of any non-med pvp spec that becomes so much stronger in the result of this change, that we need to limit the change to medium only.

But yes, main target of the change is obvious medium armor builds.

I'd rather not have extremely tanky heavy armor builds have access to something like this. Though if it were like a flat percentage of damage reduction per piece of medium armor, everyone could have some access to it. Overall, your suggestion is a very neat idea that ZoS should possibly consider. Medium and Light armor both need buffs, this would be a good start.

Minno

Yea, most of those are melee range, horrible ground targets, and low dmg compared to their single target cousins.
If dodge rolling is used as a single defense, there should be a counter to that defense. This is to promote using the correct skill at the same time.

Right now, dodge roll will provide root immunity which is a perfect change for the fact they added undodgable attacks. They do need to change one specific ability that's at range but that's for another thread in another forum lol. I agree they need to provide snare immunity (but then again that is probably why they gave shuffle that ability.)

I do think light/medium armor should have their stam/mag costs returned. Medium armor could have a cheaper cost for dodge roll (so ideally all classes can benefit) but the stack cost fatigue needs to remain. Think about it: try to dodge roll in real life. How many rolls can you do before you realize that pizza-gut isn't healthy? lol. Jokes aside, it makes sense to have that fatigue given how numerous those builds used dodge roll as an preemptive dmg mitigation instead of an active (which is clear that its to be used for certain skills not to avoid them all passively.

Shields are weak in comparison to dodging. As much as people want them to be critable, they currently take full tooltip and are now executable so it puts pressure on the recasting people do. If the classes received reliable CC's that break block, I think this would promote better counter play than trying to hard-nerf shields (and why templars are so pissed our shards keep being changes; its our only cc that breaks block.)

Dorrino

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I'd rather not have extremely tanky heavy armor builds have access to something like this. Though if it were like a flat percentage of damage reduction per piece of medium armor, everyone could have some access to it. Overall, your suggestion is a very neat idea that ZoS should possibly consider. Medium and Light armor both need buffs, this would be a good start.

Yep, heavy armor builds come to mind first. But none of them utilize or even CAN utilize dodgerolls to any noticeable extent.

50% reduction was chosen to promote consistency yet again. More and more abilities damage straight through a dodgeroll, thus to keep it being a mitigation ability i think we need to give it a mitigation, comparable to blocking (yet 50% is on the lowest end of blocking).

Avran_Sylt

Dorrino wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I could get behind this if it only applied to those wearing 5 or more medium armor. Or how about add a damage reduction percentage per piece. Like 2% per. So at 7 pieces you'd reduce at 14%. I think 50% would be far too much.

This part is understandable and arguable. Personally i'd make it apply to everybody, to promote consistency. I'm not aware of any non-med pvp spec that becomes so much stronger in the result of this change, that we need to limit the change to medium only.

But yes, main target of the change is obvious medium armor builds.

Heh. make the well-fitted trait reduce the amount of damage you take while dodgerolling as well. be interesting to see if people take that over impen, which I doubt, since dodgeroll would still have the Dodge Fatigue cost at all times, whereas Impen is always up, even when dodgerolling.

ManDraKE

The problem with dodge roll is that is very effective, o completely useless. Dodge roll is the main defense of medium armor builds (equivalent to shields in light and block/mitigation in heavy), and it can be really powerful (completely avoid damage of dodgeable attacks) or completely useless (undodgeable attacks). Given the nature of the PvP in this game, you can't simple watch your enemy and see "ok, is a channel so i shouldn't dodge roll", because you may have 10 guys attacking you from different angles. If i'm being attacked by multiple players, i want my main source of defense in medium armor to be reliable as shields or blocking. ATM there is a plethora of undodgeable stuff, all groups have players spamming Lightning Staff HA, Radiant Destruction, Soul Assault, etc etc, as a medium armor player you have 0 defense against that besides running away or LoS.

I understand that making everything dodgeable is a bad idea, you don't want ppl to be completely inmune to dmg, but filling the game with undodgeable stuff kills medium armor. What @Dorrino suggested can be an alternative, i'm not sure that is the best one, but i'm open to anything that makes dodge roll a viable defense for the usual combat situations of this game, and not a defense that is OP against ppl without undodgeable stuff, and is useless against ppl with undodgeable stuff

Meanwhile, for god sake, don't leave Cliff Racer as undodgeable, Cyrodrill is going to be infested with Wardens for the first couple of months after Morrowind.

Dorrino

Minno wrote: »

Yea, most of those are melee range, horrible ground targets, and low dmg compared to their single target cousins.

Actually all aoe abilities that i mentioned are average (jabs) to very high damage ones (all ults).

Minno wrote: »

If dodge rolling is used as a single defense, there should be a counter to that defense. This is to promote using the correct skill at the same time.

Blocking and shielding does not require 'using the correct skill at the same time'. They are universally potent:)

Minno wrote: »

Right now, dodge roll will provide root immunity which is a perfect change for the fact they added undodgable attacks. They do need to change one specific ability that's at range but that's for another thread in another forum lol. I agree they need to provide snare immunity (but then again that is probably why they gave shuffle that ability.)

Not immunity, mind you. Just snare removal. So you can immediately get snared again. Immunity would invalidate shuffle, forward momentum and rapids.

Minno wrote: »

I do think light/medium armor should have their stam/mag costs returned. Medium armor could have a cheaper cost for dodge roll (so ideally all classes can benefit) but the stack cost fatigue needs to remain. Think about it: try to dodge roll in real life. How many rolls can you do before you realize that pizza-gut isn't healthy? lol. Jokes aside, it makes sense to have that fatigue given how numerous those builds used dodge roll as an preemptive dmg mitigation instead of an active (which is clear that its to be used for certain skills not to avoid them all passively.

Will not help the current issue. It's not the cost that is the problem, it's the fact it does NOT serve as a good defense against many skills AND that some circumstances dodging puts you in an inferior state than blocking/shielding, which i think is not acceptable for a pure defensive skill.

ArtOfShred

Something like this might be a nice change for both pve and pvp. There's so much inconsistency. I believe all aoe attacks are supposed to be undodgeable but currently thats not the case (in pve at least). I would be nice if there was a bit more consistency in what you can block/roll and how things apply through that.

As an example if every single ST attack with a dot, snare, fear etc went through block but (obviously not dodge) and then all aoe and effects went through dodge it would at least be a little better.

But I actually agree it would be nice to see a like maybe 25% dr to damage taken while rolling in medium armor. I feel like dodge rolling over the last few patch cycles has gone from slightly overpowered to being pretty lackluster.

DisgracefulMind

Dorrino wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I'd rather not have extremely tanky heavy armor builds have access to something like this. Though if it were like a flat percentage of damage reduction per piece of medium armor, everyone could have some access to it. Overall, your suggestion is a very neat idea that ZoS should possibly consider. Medium and Light armor both need buffs, this would be a good start.

Yep, heavy armor builds come to mind first. But none of them utilize or even CAN utilize dodgerolls to any noticeable extent.

50% reduction was chosen to promote consistency yet again. More and more abilities damage straight through a dodgeroll, thus to keep it being a mitigation ability i think we need to give it a mitigation, comparable to blocking (yet 50% is on the lowest add of blocking).

I guess what I mean is that I'd rather something like this go into medium armor because it would be a great incentive. As it stands now, I can just see the heavy armor stam sorc dodging for mitigation around a corner, spamming dark deal getting back full stam and then rinse repeat. Would rather mitigation come from armor incentives over access to everyone in whatever build.

Asgari

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I could get behind this if it only applied to those wearing 5 or more medium armor. Or how about add a damage reduction percentage per piece. Like 2% per. So at 7 pieces you'd reduce at 14%. I think 50% would be far too much.

agreed, 50% is too much, and i also agree this should be a 5pc medium requirement. HOWEVER, this would just buff gank blades the most and they already roll a *** ton so ill pass on this lol

Dorrino

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Heh. make the well-fitted trait reduce the amount of damage you take while dodgerolling as well. be interesting to see if people take that over impen, which I doubt, since dodgeroll would still have the Dodge Fatigue cost at all times, whereas Impen is always up, even when dodgerolling.

Won't work:) Then medium builds will have to choose how they prefer to die:) In a dodge roll or outside of it:D

ManDraKE wrote: »

The problem with dodge roll is that is very effective, o completely useless. Dodge roll is the main defense of medium armor builds (equivalent to shields in light and block/mitigation in heavy), and it can be really powerful (completely avoid damage of dodgeable attacks) or completely useless (undodgeable attacks). Given the nature of the PvP in this game, you can't simple watch your enemy and see "ok, is a channel so i shouldn't dodge roll", because you may have 10 guys attacking you from different angles. If i'm being attacked by multiple players, i want my main source of defense in medium armor to be reliable as shields or blocking. ATM there is a plethora of undodgeable stuff, all groups have players spamming Lightning Staff HA, Radiant Destruction, Soul Assault, etc etc, as a medium armor player you have 0 defense against that besides running away or LoS.

QFT #1

ManDraKE wrote: »

I understand that making everything dodgeable is a bad idea, you don't want ppl to be completely inmune to dmg, but filling the game with undodgeable stuff kills medium armor.

QFT #2

ManDraKE wrote: »

What @Dorrino suggested can be an alternative, i'm not sure that is the best one, but i'm open to anything that makes dodge roll a viable defense for the usual combat situations of this game, and not a defense that is OP against ppl without undodgeable stuff, and is useless against ppl with undodgeable stuff

That's the best i was able to come up with, without overbuffing dodgeroll (which is REALLY easy to do).

ManDraKE wrote: »

Meanwhile, for god sake, don't leave Cliff Racer as undodgeable, Cyrodrill is going to be infested with Wardens for the first couple of months after Morrowind.

This change would make even cliffracers quite manageable:) All-in-one solution.

Dorrino

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I guess what I mean is that I'd rather something like this go into medium armor because it would be a great incentive. As it stands now, I can just see the heavy armor stam sorc dodging for mitigation around a corner, spamming dark deal getting back full stam and then rinse repeat. Would rather mitigation come from armor incentives over access to everyone in whatever build.

The key word here is 'spamming dark deal getting back full stam' which is a totally separate issue:)

Basically my main point is what Mandrake said. If you're using dodgeroll, you need to obtain universal benefits out of it.

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

agreed, 50% is too much, and i also agree this should be a 5pc medium requirement. HOWEVER, this would just buff gank blades the most and they already roll a *** ton so ill pass on this lol

I don't know examples when people reliably kill gankers through their dodgerolls as an important counter-strategy.

You can do that, but it's more of an anecdotal evidence.

You mostly need to prevent them to get in stealth and the proposed change does not affect that in a slightest.

SodanTok

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Think of channeled abilities as "following the player" such that dodgeroll is ineffective. I think dodgeroll should stay the same, as a dodgeroll build is countered by these channeled abilities. Dodgeroll shouldn't reduce all damage taken, like shields, as it gives the player the added bonus of moving their location + CC breaking. Whereas using a shield, the player becomes somewhat immobile, and a much more visible target.

Do I think there should be a stacking cost for dodgeroll? Yes, and no. I think that the Dodge fatigue should only be applied to the player upon breaking out of a root ability using dodgeroll, and dodgerolling after that will not apply (or reset) Dodge fatigue again (unless rooted again). Otherwise it should remain the same cost.

My question for you in regards to the CC while in dodgeroll - is this a result of a channel? or an ability such as Piercing Javelin?

Dawnbreker.

Minno wrote: »

Yea, most of those are melee range, horrible ground targets, and low dmg compared to their single target cousins.
If dodge rolling is used as a single defense, there should be a counter to that defense. This is to promote using the correct skill at the same time.

Right now, dodge roll will provide root immunity which is a perfect change for the fact they added undodgable attacks. They do need to change one specific ability that's at range but that's for another thread in another forum lol. I agree they need to provide snare immunity (but then again that is probably why they gave shuffle that ability.)

I do think light/medium armor should have their stam/mag costs returned. Medium armor could have a cheaper cost for dodge roll (so ideally all classes can benefit) but the stack cost fatigue needs to remain. Think about it: try to dodge roll in real life. How many rolls can you do before you realize that pizza-gut isn't healthy? lol. Jokes aside, it makes sense to have that fatigue given how numerous those builds used dodge roll as an preemptive dmg mitigation instead of an active (which is clear that its to be used for certain skills not to avoid them all passively.

Shields are weak in comparison to dodging. As much as people want them to be critable, they currently take full tooltip and are now executable so it puts pressure on the recasting people do. If the classes received reliable CC's that break block, I think this would promote better counter play than trying to hard-nerf shields (and why templars are so pissed our shards keep being changes; its our only cc that breaks block.)

Respectfully disagree. There is far less counters to other defenses. And they can be used as single defense far more often. Nothing in this game promotes using the right skill at the time currently. If you are shieldstacker, you spam. If you are blocker you hold.

Root immunity is something medium builds always had from shuffle. Making that change less desirable than for any other build in the game.

Cheaper cost to skills or dodge roll does not solve anything. The problem is not how often you can dodge roll, but how often it does not protect you properly. (In that case I agree with you, fatigue should remain). Dodge roll is probably the least effective and most expensive preemptive defense (tho better for running away from people than for example blocking)

Single shields are weak, but stacked are not weaker than dodge rolling. You can hold them almost permanently and react to damage after it is dealt. They are executable and so is player with HP at execute range (four of those executes even counter dodge).

DisgracefulMind

Dorrino wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I guess what I mean is that I'd rather something like this go into medium armor because it would be a great incentive. As it stands now, I can just see the heavy armor stam sorc dodging for mitigation around a corner, spamming dark deal getting back full stam and then rinse repeat. Would rather mitigation come from armor incentives over access to everyone in whatever build.

The key word here is 'spamming dark deal getting back full stam' which is a totally separate issue:)

Basically my main point is what Mandrake said. If you're using dodgeroll, you need to obtain universal benefits out of it.

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

agreed, 50% is too much, and i also agree this should be a 5pc medium requirement. HOWEVER, this would just buff gank blades the most and they already roll a *** ton so ill pass on this lol

I don't know examples when people reliably kill gankers through their dodgerolls as an important counter-strategy.

You can do that, but it's more of an anecdotal evidence.

You mostly need to prevent them to get in stealth and the proposed change does not affect that in a slightest.

Well me bringing up stam sorc is just an example of how broken this could be if there wasnt an armor requirement tied to it. If such a change were to happen, and I think it would be a good change, it should be an armor incentive. That way stamina builds have to make a solid choice. Like, hey I want to be tankier overall so I'll choose heavy. Or, hey I want some more sustain with a bit of extra mitigation so I'll choose medium. Just examples, but it would make your armor more meaningful.

DisgracefulMind

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I could get behind this if it only applied to those wearing 5 or more medium armor. Or how about add a damage reduction percentage per piece. Like 2% per. So at 7 pieces you'd reduce at 14%. I think 50% would be far too much.

agreed, 50% is too much, and i also agree this should be a 5pc medium requirement. HOWEVER, this would just buff gank blades the most and they already roll a *** ton so ill pass on this lol

I don't mind gankblades being rollie pollies. Means they failed their gank. At this point in time medium armor just needs an incentive. Feel like adding something for survivability like this would go a long way when it comes down to choices. I just firmly believe players should not have access to everything in any build.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

How about it still completely dodges single target attacks like it does now and AoE gets the damage reduction only. The remove snare idea is nice.

Dorrino

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Well me bringing up stam sorc is just an example of how broken this could be if there wasnt an armor requirement tied to it. If such a change were to happen, and I think it would be a good change, it should be an armor incentive. That way stamina builds have to make a solid choice. Like, hey I want to be tankier overall so I'll choose heavy. Or, hey I want some more sustain with a bit of extra mitigation so I'll choose medium. Just examples, but it would make your armor more meaningful.

I definitely agree with your reasoning. I still feel that giving this benefit to everybody will allow for a more consistent gameplay without overbuffing non-med builds.

If a heavy armor wearer decides to use his secondary defense mechanism (dodge), i think he still deserves for the dodge to put him in a better state, since it costs him more. It's more important for him for dodges to work, than even for med.

But again this is arguable and just buffing med armor with this change would be a huge step in itself.

Dorrino

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

How about it still completely dodges single target attacks like it does now and AoE gets the damage reduction only. The remove snare idea is nice.

I thought about that. This will solve *some* problems, while leaving unanswered the question of universality. As to why any other defense is equally strong against single target channels, but dodgerolls. By now i wasn't able to answer that.

Minno

Dorrino wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Yea, most of those are melee range, horrible ground targets, and low dmg compared to their single target cousins.

Actually all aoe abilities that i mentioned are average (jabs) to very high damage ones (all ults).

Minno wrote: »

If dodge rolling is used as a single defense, there should be a counter to that defense. This is to promote using the correct skill at the same time.

Blocking and shielding does not require 'using the correct skill at the same time'. They are universally potent:)

Minno wrote: »

Right now, dodge roll will provide root immunity which is a perfect change for the fact they added undodgable attacks. They do need to change one specific ability that's at range but that's for another thread in another forum lol. I agree they need to provide snare immunity (but then again that is probably why they gave shuffle that ability.)

Not immunity, mind you. Just snare removal. So you can immediately get snared again. Immunity would invalidate shuffle, forward momentum and rapids.

Minno wrote: »

I do think light/medium armor should have their stam/mag costs returned. Medium armor could have a cheaper cost for dodge roll (so ideally all classes can benefit) but the stack cost fatigue needs to remain. Think about it: try to dodge roll in real life. How many rolls can you do before you realize that pizza-gut isn't healthy? lol. Jokes aside, it makes sense to have that fatigue given how numerous those builds used dodge roll as an preemptive dmg mitigation instead of an active (which is clear that its to be used for certain skills not to avoid them all passively.

Will not help the current issue. It's not the cost that is the problem, it's the fact it does NOT serve as a good defense against many skills AND that some circumstances dodging puts you in an inferior state than blocking/shielding, which i think is not acceptable for a pure defensive skill.

-We can run through each AOE ability to make sure they are not harming dodge roll too much. Ultimates should be undodgable if they are AOE based, as well as beamed based. Soul Assualt should be changed to single target (to match two hander.) this way it can be dodgable and to promote templars as the class that can hard counter dodge as a class identity and the fact some of those channels are low dmg (1k per tick is low compared to other abilities.) For purfying light, I think the end dmg should be dodgable to promote chaining an undodgable cc to gain that high dmg the skill provides. But for haunting curse, that ability has no reason to passively add a second undodgable dmg burst anyway. The dmg should be swapped between purfying light/haunting curse but with one being able to dodge/the other undodgable.
- blocking should be used in bursts, and for some builds it has to be used in that way or you'll burn that stam. Shields also work in this way. Yes I can recast it, but against NB/sorcs/stam DKs its gone as fast as I can cast it. Therefore its use justifies it being used as a skill that counters a high burst skill due to the costs (3.5k-3.8k on pts.) I do think if they make shields to only be on once at a time would solve a great many problems without harming the intent for shields (as a counter to high burst or help protect your health while you try to heal up.)
- Yes I agree for snare. Not immunity but removal. This was other classes and builds can have access. Maybe at 5 pc med you can gain resources back for breaking the snares? (similar to using Honor the Dead at 70% health?)
- it will help to offset the negatives. currently no one runs medium/light unless they want a challenge. Heavy should have it's dmg passive removed(they should have to build for dmg whereas light/medium have to build for defense; makes it more balanced on paper.)

But ultimately any change still needs to have all skills/abilites/sets reviewed and time after time its been proven we just don't see the level of consistency from ZoS to review these changes. Im down for buffing dodge rolling; just giving my thoughts from a magplar perspective where my skills are clunky in design yet have functionality against dodge defenses (and you've seen my dodgy-weird non-meta magplar build in open cyro. so im also coming at this from the position of benefiting from using dodge roll too lol.)

Dorrino

Minno wrote: »

-We can run through each AOE ability to make sure they are not harming dodge roll too much.

Obviously i didn't mean any aoe abilities to have huge damage:) Nevertheless aoes are both blockable and shieldable, but not dodgeable.

Minno wrote: »

Ultimates should be undodgable if they are AOE based, as well as beamed based.

Should they be unblockable and unshieldable then?:)

Minno wrote: »

Soul Assualt should be changed to single target (to match two hander.)

Not sure which skill do you mean, since Soul Assault is a single target channel.

Minno wrote: »

templars as the class that can hard counter dodge as a class identity

I don't really like specific classes to invalidate specific defense mechanisms. Unless that's a major design choice, then some other class should hard counter blocks, some other class to hard counter shields etc.

Minno wrote: »

For purfying light, I think the end dmg should be dodgable to promote chaining an undodgable cc to gain that high dmg the skill provides.

Blockable will be enough. It's really hard to time dodge to something that doesn't have any audio-visual cues (like pol expiration).

Minno wrote: »

- blocking should be used in bursts, and for some builds it has to be used in that way or you'll burn that stam.

That will require overhauling of blocking mechanics both in pvp and pve, which is a hard thing to do.

Minno wrote: »

Shields also work in this way. Yes I can recast it, but against NB/sorcs/stam DKs its gone as fast as I can cast it. Therefore its use justifies it being used as a skill that counters a high burst skill due to the costs (3.5k-3.8k on pts.) I do think if they make shields to only be on once at a time would solve a great many problems without harming the intent for shields (as a counter to high burst or help protect your health while you try to heal up.)

Well, i'm not proposing to get rid of dodge fatigue, but using the logic of 'but against NB/sorcs/stam DKs its gone as fast as I can cast it.' med armor is supposed to use dodge 'as fast as I can cast it':) But it can't.

Minno wrote: »

- Yes I agree for snare. Not immunity but removal. This was other classes and builds can have access. Maybe at 5 pc med you can gain resources back for breaking the snares? (similar to using Honor the Dead at 70% health?)

Would be cool, but yet again i want to emphasize that resource cost is not the issue with med armor and dodges. Even with infinite dodges the problem in question will stand.

Poliwrath

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I could get behind this if it only applied to those wearing 5 or more medium armor. Or how about add a damage reduction percentage per piece. Like 2% per. So at 7 pieces you'd reduce at 14%. I think 50% would be far too much.

agreed, 50% is too much, and i also agree this should be a 5pc medium requirement. HOWEVER, this would just buff gank blades the most and they already roll a *** ton so ill pass on this lol

I don't mind gankblades being rollie pollies. Means they failed their gank. At this point in time medium armor just needs an incentive. Feel like adding something for survivability like this would go a long way when it comes down to choices. I just firmly believe players should not have access to everything in any build.

u dont need any more incentive, heavy armor sustain on pts is baad. non cp is reeeeally bad. vast majority of stam users are going to be in medium. even in med sustain is bad. heavy is barely an option unless you just want to be a tank

Dorrino

Poliwrath wrote: »

u dont need any more incentive, heavy armor sustain on pts is baad. non cp is reeeeally bad. vast majority of stam users are going to be in medium. even in med sustain is bad. heavy is barely an option unless you just want to be a tank

Mag specs (besides sorcs) still play in heavy, though:)

Otherwise you point obviously stands.

Joy_Division

I'm sure there is a better idea. People talk about how this game is getting dumbed down, how there are no counters, and now we want to make every single type of attack, regardless of what it is do 50% damage against dodging? Doesn''t blocking already do this?

I'm not even sure this is something I'd want. I play magicka so I'm no expert on dodge rolling, but when I do dodge roll, I'm pretty sure I avoid more than 50% of the incoming damage that was targeted at me. I personally would prefer a different form of defense that was very strong Vs. some attacks even though it's useless Vs. others. Not only does it promote thinking and quite frankly more interesting game-play, but I'm pretty sure with some skill and experience I'd be better off. If I see a sorcerer casting fragments, damn it I want to dodge that and avoid it entirely. Blocking already serves as the stamina draining default 50% mitigation mechanic, I'd rather not have another one that simply allows me to be more mobile.

Dorrino

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm sure there is a better idea. People talk about how this game is getting dumbed down, how there are no counters, and now we want to make every single type of attack, regardless of what it is do 50% damage against dodging? Doesn''t blocking already do this?

That's the whole point that blocking already does that. And you can't block while dodging. This makes it so you can get punished for dodging, unlike any other defense mechanics in the game.

Joy_Division wrote: »

If I see a sorcerer casting fragments, damn it I want to dodge that and avoid it entirely.

Now you see, say a templar jabbing you with pol:) As literally any other spec, but med armor, you just block the jabs and/or spam shields/heals. As a med armor spec at best you pray, at worst you dodge. That's the key problem - your worst decision would be to use your main avoidance mechanic.

None of the other mechanics share this vulnerability. There're zero cases when blocking, shielding or healing would make your situation worse.

Thus the proposed change.

Alternatively, even though it's worse for multiple reasons, let's make blocking available in the middle of the dodge. It will bring a similar outcome as the proposed change at the expense of much higher stam costs and requirement to the personal skill of the player.

NyassaV

As a stamplar I mostly support this. Though I would prefer dodge duration be changed to 2 seconds, and some abilities remain un-dodge-able

Sugaroverdose

Dorrino wrote: »

Currently dodgeroll is a unique type of damage mitigation when you spend stamina to fully avoid incoming attacks. But 2 types of attacks go through dodgeroll drastically reducing its effectiveness.

These attack types are channeled damage skills (soul assault, radiant destruction, templar jabs) and aoe skills (destruction ults, jabs again, dawnbreaker and dragon leap). This puts dodgerolls in a peculiar spot when you spend your resources for better defense, but instead you're locked from blocking for 1sec while in the dodgeroll while receiving full damage from a subset of attacks.

This, along with stacking dodge fatigue and ability to get cc-ed while in a dodgeroll, makes dodgerolls an inferior main damage mitigation mechanics compared to blocking (which contributes to heavy pvp meta on live as one of the major factors).

I propose to add 50% incoming damage mitigation for the duration of a dodgeroll (1sec). This will not affect dots already on the player and will only be applied to the new incoming damage sources while in the dodgeroll.

This way using dodgeroll will give some benefits even in the worst case scenario and still allows counter a dodgerolling player by using both aoe CCs and single target disorients (vampire drain, fossilize etc).

PS. While we're at it, we might want to make dodgerolls to remove snares in addition to roots. People have been complaining about the overabundance of snares in the game for quite a while, so i think an ability to remove them without adding a snare-immunity would be a very much welcome change.-

1. Blocking is already insanely punishing thing on live for builds which isn't about it, with doubled cost it's useless(for everyone except blockholders who will just utilise frost staff and S&B ultimate)
2. You can be CC'ed while blocking, but if you block - than you get ~40% of damage, so most definitely you'll be CC'ed not in full health.

block sometimes, game should not give any silver bullets, while dodge is already outperforms other ways to mitigate damage(except shieldstacking sorcs of course).