Joy_Division wrote: »

Zos can quantify power so it thinks as long as the classes are roughly equivalent that all is OK. Well ZoS, you can't quantify fun. I'm telling you right now that I do not enjoy that the uniqueness of my class has been torn asunder just to be replaced by the homogenized generic +X% boosts in its stead. What had once made it fun to play a Templar no longer exists.

The Templar body functions, but its soul is no longer there.

That’s the problem ZoS. It’s not that Templars are weak, or useless, or over-nerfed, or can’t compete with Wardens. Rather it is clear as day to anyone who has played and cared about a Templar since launch that the essence of what once made the class distinctive and fun is dead. The soulless husks we play now still have more than adequate power to fulfill whatever role is called on them, but there is no compelling game-play reason to use them as the direction you have taken the game has eliminated unique class functions in favor of generic power boosts available to everyone. That’s a terrible change. We are all pretty much the same. It’s boring. I don’t think you ever should have allowed the Champion System to steal the power inherent in our classes. Because you will never ever convince me that some +X major bonus to stamina available to everyone is as awesome, rewarding, stimulating, or fun as the Repentance skill.

I want the soul back on my templar. And it pains me you cannot grant that because of the direction you took ESO.

itscompton wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

Home ground advantage is what templars should be about, fight me in this zone where I have advantage.

Templars have all these area spells, but they now have no way to keep anyone or anything inside of them... sure some movement slows but they are so weak with such strong gap closers and you have to be close to deal damage it doesn't really matter that much.

If I was designing templars this is what I would focus on.

I would make Solar prison and actual prison. Basically creating your own duelling arena that stuns if anyone tries to leave.... then you spear knock back them into the wall.

I am sure if you removed breath of life people would also say you killed templars, but if you instead replaced the idea of them being healers, with the idea of holding a zone down people would still enjoy them instead of actually being breath of life spammers.

BoL spammers huh? Considering Templars have no escapability, no reliable CC and crap damage mitigation outside of running S&B how else do you propose a Templar stay alive when a Stam character gets in their face and unloads 3-4 animation canceled attacks every two seconds? Spam mist until they run out of magic? Because even using elusive mist isn't allowing a Templar to escape anyone since the major expedition buff it gives is basically cancelled out by the fact being misted puts you in sneak mode. Fight them toe to toe? Templars don't have the burst to do it.
If you put someone into BoL spam mode you've basically already won the fight because with no mitigation and no burst the Templar can't ever switch back to offense for long enough to turn the fight.

itscompton wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

Home ground advantage is what templars should be about, fight me in this zone where I have advantage.

Templars have all these area spells, but they now have no way to keep anyone or anything inside of them... sure some movement slows but they are so weak with such strong gap closers and you have to be close to deal damage it doesn't really matter that much.

If I was designing templars this is what I would focus on.

I would make Solar prison and actual prison. Basically creating your own duelling arena that stuns if anyone tries to leave.... then you spear knock back them into the wall.

I am sure if you removed breath of life people would also say you killed templars, but if you instead replaced the idea of them being healers, with the idea of holding a zone down people would still enjoy them instead of actually being breath of life spammers.

BoL spammers huh? Considering Templars have no escapability, no reliable CC and crap damage mitigation outside of running S&B how else do you propose a Templar stay alive when a Stam character gets in their face and unloads 3-4 animation canceled attacks every two seconds? Spam mist until they run out of magic? Because even using elusive mist isn't allowing a Templar to escape anyone since the major expedition buff it gives is basically cancelled out by the fact being misted puts you in sneak mode. Fight them toe to toe? Templars don't have the burst to do it.
If you put someone into BoL spam mode you've basically already won the fight because with no mitigation and no burst the Templar can't ever switch back to offense for long enough to turn the fight.

utb99 wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Just want to drop this in here:

Developer Comments
We took the stun off of Blazing Spear and increased its damage over time duration to help differentiate it from Luminous Shard. We want Blazing Spear to be damage focused, and Luminous to be CC focused. Note: We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets.

What happened?

@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

Let me quote it again:

We want Blazing Spear to be damage focused, and Luminous to be CC focused. Note: We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities

maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

It feels sooo unique now, omg, almost like I don't have a CC at all from it...owait.

Also would like to add:

Developer Comments
There are three main goals behind the changes to Spear Shards and its morphs. First, we want the design of Spear Shards to be more clearly focused – it’s a powerful area of effect damage ability with a prominent synergy. Templars still have crowd control options with other abilities such as Piercing Javelin, Eclipse, and Focused Charge. This also prevents scenarios where the disorient on this ability would be a detriment; since Spear Shards could proc Burning Light, there would frequently be situations where the disorient broke immediately and gave your enemy a “free” crowd control immunity.

Let's break down what's wrong with this.

Piercing Javelin: Useless now for Magplars except in niche situations as it knocks people way to far from our range and forces into our very, very, very, very, very sluggish gap closer. Never slotted it before, never slotting it ever now for sure.

Toppling Charge: As I said previously, this gap close is soooooo slow. So. Slow. People see it from a mile away and block it or dodge it before we even get close to them. How is this a reliable CC?? Please tell me.

Eclipse: Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Still not worth a slot on my bar unless I'm dueling a magicka Nightblade with a destro and maybe, maybe a Sorc, but most Sorcs are smart enough to not toss a frag with a giant bubble on them. How is this a reliable CC? If anything, this is the actual free cc immunity that you all are talking about.

Why can't you just give a hard CC back to one of the Spear morphs? Look above at our totally awesome "CC" toolkit. Yeah, not so awesome, huh?

Exactly. They remove Blazing Spear's stun bc they want it to be focused on dps

In return they promised to fix Luminous Shards and make its CC worthwile

THEN they removed Luminous Shards' CC.....

ZoS completely screwed us over.

Nerf A, bc we buff B. Then take out B and ignore A.
^ How Zos handles Balance.

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

utb99 wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Just want to drop this in here:

Developer Comments
We took the stun off of Blazing Spear and increased its damage over time duration to help differentiate it from Luminous Shard. We want Blazing Spear to be damage focused, and Luminous to be CC focused. Note: We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets.

What happened?

@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

Let me quote it again:

We want Blazing Spear to be damage focused, and Luminous to be CC focused. Note: We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities

maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

It feels sooo unique now, omg, almost like I don't have a CC at all from it...owait.

Also would like to add:

Developer Comments
There are three main goals behind the changes to Spear Shards and its morphs. First, we want the design of Spear Shards to be more clearly focused – it’s a powerful area of effect damage ability with a prominent synergy. Templars still have crowd control options with other abilities such as Piercing Javelin, Eclipse, and Focused Charge. This also prevents scenarios where the disorient on this ability would be a detriment; since Spear Shards could proc Burning Light, there would frequently be situations where the disorient broke immediately and gave your enemy a “free” crowd control immunity.

Let's break down what's wrong with this.

Piercing Javelin: Useless now for Magplars except in niche situations as it knocks people way to far from our range and forces into our very, very, very, very, very sluggish gap closer. Never slotted it before, never slotting it ever now for sure.

Toppling Charge: As I said previously, this gap close is soooooo slow. So. Slow. People see it from a mile away and block it or dodge it before we even get close to them. How is this a reliable CC?? Please tell me.

Eclipse: Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Still not worth a slot on my bar unless I'm dueling a magicka Nightblade with a destro and maybe, maybe a Sorc, but most Sorcs are smart enough to not toss a frag with a giant bubble on them. How is this a reliable CC? If anything, this is the actual free cc immunity that you all are talking about.

Why can't you just give a hard CC back to one of the Spear morphs? Look above at our totally awesome "CC" toolkit. Yeah, not so awesome, huh?

Exactly. They remove Blazing Spear's stun bc they want it to be focused on dps

In return they promised to fix Luminous Shards and make its CC worthwile

THEN they removed Luminous Shards' CC.....

ZoS completely screwed us over.

Nerf A, bc we buff B. Then take out B and ignore A.
^ How Zos handles Balance.

Let's not forget how they so lovingly gave the casting Templar on Luminous resources back upon someone synergizing their spear, but THEN took that away without telling us. They don't even know what their direction is with Shards.

GallantGuardian wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

utb99 wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Just want to drop this in here:

Developer Comments
We took the stun off of Blazing Spear and increased its damage over time duration to help differentiate it from Luminous Shard. We want Blazing Spear to be damage focused, and Luminous to be CC focused. Note: We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets.

What happened?

@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

Let me quote it again:

We want Blazing Spear to be damage focused, and Luminous to be CC focused. Note: We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities

maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

It feels sooo unique now, omg, almost like I don't have a CC at all from it...owait.

Also would like to add:

Developer Comments
There are three main goals behind the changes to Spear Shards and its morphs. First, we want the design of Spear Shards to be more clearly focused – it’s a powerful area of effect damage ability with a prominent synergy. Templars still have crowd control options with other abilities such as Piercing Javelin, Eclipse, and Focused Charge. This also prevents scenarios where the disorient on this ability would be a detriment; since Spear Shards could proc Burning Light, there would frequently be situations where the disorient broke immediately and gave your enemy a “free” crowd control immunity.

Let's break down what's wrong with this.

Piercing Javelin: Useless now for Magplars except in niche situations as it knocks people way to far from our range and forces into our very, very, very, very, very sluggish gap closer. Never slotted it before, never slotting it ever now for sure.

Toppling Charge: As I said previously, this gap close is soooooo slow. So. Slow. People see it from a mile away and block it or dodge it before we even get close to them. How is this a reliable CC?? Please tell me.

Eclipse: Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Still not worth a slot on my bar unless I'm dueling a magicka Nightblade with a destro and maybe, maybe a Sorc, but most Sorcs are smart enough to not toss a frag with a giant bubble on them. How is this a reliable CC? If anything, this is the actual free cc immunity that you all are talking about.

Why can't you just give a hard CC back to one of the Spear morphs? Look above at our totally awesome "CC" toolkit. Yeah, not so awesome, huh?

Exactly. They remove Blazing Spear's stun bc they want it to be focused on dps

In return they promised to fix Luminous Shards and make its CC worthwile

THEN they removed Luminous Shards' CC.....

ZoS completely screwed us over.

Nerf A, bc we buff B. Then take out B and ignore A.
^ How Zos handles Balance.

Let's not forget how they so lovingly gave the casting Templar on Luminous resources back upon someone synergizing their spear, but THEN took that away without telling us. They don't even know what their direction is with Shards.

Wait what??? We aren't getting back the resources now ? And repent is still gonna be a first come first serve resource return ?

Wtf

GallantGuardian wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

utb99 wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Just want to drop this in here:

Developer Comments
We took the stun off of Blazing Spear and increased its damage over time duration to help differentiate it from Luminous Shard. We want Blazing Spear to be damage focused, and Luminous to be CC focused. Note: We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets.

What happened?

@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

Let me quote it again:

We want Blazing Spear to be damage focused, and Luminous to be CC focused. Note: We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities

maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

It feels sooo unique now, omg, almost like I don't have a CC at all from it...owait.

Also would like to add:

Developer Comments
There are three main goals behind the changes to Spear Shards and its morphs. First, we want the design of Spear Shards to be more clearly focused – it’s a powerful area of effect damage ability with a prominent synergy. Templars still have crowd control options with other abilities such as Piercing Javelin, Eclipse, and Focused Charge. This also prevents scenarios where the disorient on this ability would be a detriment; since Spear Shards could proc Burning Light, there would frequently be situations where the disorient broke immediately and gave your enemy a “free” crowd control immunity.

Let's break down what's wrong with this.

Piercing Javelin: Useless now for Magplars except in niche situations as it knocks people way to far from our range and forces into our very, very, very, very, very sluggish gap closer. Never slotted it before, never slotting it ever now for sure.

Toppling Charge: As I said previously, this gap close is soooooo slow. So. Slow. People see it from a mile away and block it or dodge it before we even get close to them. How is this a reliable CC?? Please tell me.

Eclipse: Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Still not worth a slot on my bar unless I'm dueling a magicka Nightblade with a destro and maybe, maybe a Sorc, but most Sorcs are smart enough to not toss a frag with a giant bubble on them. How is this a reliable CC? If anything, this is the actual free cc immunity that you all are talking about.

Why can't you just give a hard CC back to one of the Spear morphs? Look above at our totally awesome "CC" toolkit. Yeah, not so awesome, huh?

Exactly. They remove Blazing Spear's stun bc they want it to be focused on dps

In return they promised to fix Luminous Shards and make its CC worthwile

THEN they removed Luminous Shards' CC.....

ZoS completely screwed us over.

Nerf A, bc we buff B. Then take out B and ignore A.
^ How Zos handles Balance.

Let's not forget how they so lovingly gave the casting Templar on Luminous resources back upon someone synergizing their spear, but THEN took that away without telling us. They don't even know what their direction is with Shards.

Wait what??? We aren't getting back the resources now ? And repent is still gonna be a first come first serve resource return ?

Wtf

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

"what if we design a melee class with cc that requires it to be at range, or puts enemies at range"

A+ game design

Well, it *could* be done, sort of. A little.

• Piercing Javeline and morphs knock back target and caster 5 meters each + stun target. Morph additions stay the same.
  
• Focused Charge and morphs do 30% extra damage to stunned targets. Morph additions stay the same.
  
• Blazing Spear (Spear Shards morph) has its stun returned but its initial damage and its DoTs are nerfed.
  
• Unstable Core (Eclipse morph) stuns target if they activate any kind of gap closer.

For Magplars: Pop a Core on a ranged target, use your ranged stuff like Sunfire (either morph), Dark Flare, and Radiant Destruction. If they gap close you, they are stunned, so hit either morph of Focused Charge. If they run at you, rather than gap close use Blazing Spear then Focused Charge (either morph). If they pop up next to you or you close in near them to start, use Piercing Javeline then Focused Charge.

For Stamplars: Replace Dawn's Wrath abilities (except Unstable Core) with Bow abilities and Focused Charge with something like Shield Charge.

Or they could just put the range back down on Javelin and give us a hard CC with Spear, and change Toppling so its travel times isn't so slow and long. (They just need to give up their idea that Eclipse is reliable, it's not)

Problem solved.

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

ofSunhold wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

utb99 wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Just want to drop this in here:

Developer Comments
We took the stun off of Blazing Spear and increased its damage over time duration to help differentiate it from Luminous Shard. We want Blazing Spear to be damage focused, and Luminous to be CC focused. Note: We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets.

What happened?

@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

Let me quote it again:

We want Blazing Spear to be damage focused, and Luminous to be CC focused. Note: We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

We’re still working through a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities, while maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

a solution that makes Luminous feel unique from the other CC abilities

maintaining the functionality of effectiveness on blocking targets

It feels sooo unique now, omg, almost like I don't have a CC at all from it...owait.

Also would like to add:

Developer Comments
There are three main goals behind the changes to Spear Shards and its morphs. First, we want the design of Spear Shards to be more clearly focused – it’s a powerful area of effect damage ability with a prominent synergy. Templars still have crowd control options with other abilities such as Piercing Javelin, Eclipse, and Focused Charge. This also prevents scenarios where the disorient on this ability would be a detriment; since Spear Shards could proc Burning Light, there would frequently be situations where the disorient broke immediately and gave your enemy a “free” crowd control immunity.

Let's break down what's wrong with this.

Piercing Javelin: Useless now for Magplars except in niche situations as it knocks people way to far from our range and forces into our very, very, very, very, very sluggish gap closer. Never slotted it before, never slotting it ever now for sure.

Toppling Charge: As I said previously, this gap close is soooooo slow. So. Slow. People see it from a mile away and block it or dodge it before we even get close to them. How is this a reliable CC?? Please tell me.

Eclipse: Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Still not worth a slot on my bar unless I'm dueling a magicka Nightblade with a destro and maybe, maybe a Sorc, but most Sorcs are smart enough to not toss a frag with a giant bubble on them. How is this a reliable CC? If anything, this is the actual free cc immunity that you all are talking about.

Why can't you just give a hard CC back to one of the Spear morphs? Look above at our totally awesome "CC" toolkit. Yeah, not so awesome, huh?

Exactly. They remove Blazing Spear's stun bc they want it to be focused on dps

In return they promised to fix Luminous Shards and make its CC worthwile

THEN they removed Luminous Shards' CC.....

ZoS completely screwed us over.

Nerf A, bc we buff B. Then take out B and ignore A.
^ How Zos handles Balance.

Let's not forget how they so lovingly gave the casting Templar on Luminous resources back upon someone synergizing their spear, but THEN took that away without telling us. They don't even know what their direction is with Shards.

Wait what??? We aren't getting back the resources now ? And repent is still gonna be a first come first serve resource return ?

Wtf

They didn't say anything about it, so I'm waiting for the next patch notes, hoping it's a glitch.

Healing dungeons on the PTS is not fun, and I can't imagine I'll be spending any time that way when this goes live. Enjoy, Wardens.

It's definitely not accidental. The resource return caused a visual on your character and the shard synergizing sound to go off upon someone activated your spear so you knew you were getting resources. I can't imagine removing all of that is a "mistake".

tinythinker wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

"what if we design a melee class with cc that requires it to be at range, or puts enemies at range"

A+ game design

Well, it *could* be done, sort of. A little.

• Piercing Javeline and morphs knock back target and caster 5 meters each + stun target. Morph additions stay the same.
  
• Focused Charge and morphs do 30% extra damage to stunned targets. Morph additions stay the same.
  
• Blazing Spear (Spear Shards morph) has its stun returned but its initial damage and its DoTs are nerfed.
  
• Unstable Core (Eclipse morph) stuns target if they activate any kind of gap closer.

For Magplars: Pop a Core on a ranged target, use your ranged stuff like Sunfire (either morph), Dark Flare, and Radiant Destruction. If they gap close you, they are stunned, so hit either morph of Focused Charge. If they run at you, rather than gap close use Blazing Spear then Focused Charge (either morph). If they pop up next to you or you close in near them to start, use Piercing Javeline then Focused Charge.

For Stamplars: Replace Dawn's Wrath abilities (except Unstable Core) with Bow abilities and Focused Charge with something like Shield Charge.

Or they could just put the range back down on Javelin and give us a hard CC with Spear, and change Toppling so its travel times isn't so slow and long. (They just need to give up their idea that Eclipse is reliable, it's not)

Problem solved.

Yes, but I don't think they will accept your solution or mine.

For what it's worth, I added the damage buff for Charge against stunned targets because I think it's always going to have the same travel issues and possibly dump you into a loading screen. Thirty percent is high but stun is situational and why not ask for more and expect a bit less? I added the double knockback to work better in melee range and yeah that could work with or without the increased range, would in fact work better without it but I left that out. And I added back the hard CC to Blazing.

Before all of the changes the this year I was just hoping for Core to have a stun on gap-closer activation since that stuff is always spammed in Cyro and the current Core is pretty useless for PvE and PvP.

There are lots of ways to help Templars in PvP, but don't hold your breath.

Sile wrote: »

Yeah, the new Javelin "Buff" is really a nerf to Magplar and DW Stamplars.

I guess you could say "This is a buff if you're a healplar, and a nerf if you're not."

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Nvm disregard above post they literally gave us nothing

Which is why everyone had given up on the PTS. Most of us have quit posting. ZOS doesn't care about our opinions.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Nvm disregard above post they literally gave us nothing

Which is why everyone had given up on the PTS. Most of us have quit posting. ZOS doesn't care about our opinions.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

So thats it then??? Orbs will now replace shards even on our own bars?... nice zos... very nice...