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Zenimax, what happened to connecting with your End Game?

Nifty2g
Nifty2g
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I have a lot to say about the direction Zenimax is heading and none of it is positive, just a fair warning. I know this gets thrown around far too much, "I've played this game since Beta", but I'll get a little more into it, I guess. Just remember this is probably a biased view and you can either agree with me or disagree with me, but this is how I see it, and it's disheartening to see a company you have supported go this direction.

I have seen a lot of stuff Zenimax have added to this game that the community has help build from the ground, back when Aetherian Archive and Hel Ra Citadel came out, it was an absolute nightmare to run, Dawnbreaker and Restoration Staves to increase your damage, stamina being completely destroyed for many patches. Trials having a soul reservoir, where if you used up certain lives you had to reset the trial, just imagine that in a new trial (Sanctum Ophidia). Dynamic ultimate (it really was busted don't lie). But we stuck around and played a game we loved to play with each other, that is one thing ESO is great for, the community. We posted guides for the community, we posted videos for the community, streamed for the community and competition was at a very high point back in 2015, a lot of those players have up and left, but nevertheless their feedback given helped so much.

Raiders have a pretty big impact on the general health of the game whether people want to believe it or not, that the 1% is "elitist" but Zenimax used to engage and read a lot of the feedback we have given, a lot of the suggestions I read are from very high end players, and the amount of feedback that has been added to the game to get it to the point where it is at.

ESO started to have a huge developer to raider connection back with Council of Raiders, ever since that we seen even more feedback being listened to and added into the game, we got Normal Mode of trials added to the game so that players have a learning curve, while it really isn't that fine tuned right now, it's something we never had before. ESO really is a good game, it truly has fast paced action multiple levels of content depending on your play style, the game currently has a really good mix of whatever you want to do.

However, since One Tamriel I have noticed that Zenimax is moving in a direction that focuses more so on the short term player rather than the long term, from a business move that's all fine and all but if I'm being honest, it's such a disrespect for those players who have seen through all the mistakes and have helped Zenimax get to where they are, through either paying their subscription or offering feedback, streaming the game or posting their videos and their guides to help players and the developers understand their game a bit more and to give them insight into what it is like to play the game at a high end level. Whether we are just a number, it can't be ignored how much the players have helped this game grow to where it currently is.

Homestead is a patch that was overlooked, how many times has Zenimax stated in the past that they do not want skills to do the same thing but with different effects? We started to see a lot of skills doing the same thing but with different effects in Homestead in attempts to simplify the game, lower the ceiling and raise the floor. Luckily a lot of feedback was listened to (not a lot) but a lot of it was that helped keep the game in a healthy state that has multiple levels of game play (casual, questing, end game, elite), that's a pretty good direction to have and a good level to have that gives players a choice in what they want to do.

This coming patch Morrowind, in my opinion is going back on a lot of the changes and a lot of the feedback that we are offering or have offered. Raiders in particular are being disregarded of their feedback whether Zenmiax wants to comment on that is up to them, but it's fairly obvious from what I have seen in the past. Zenimax have stated that their content is going to be a seamless transition from PvE to PvP and that we are balancing for all types on content (casual, questing, end game, elite), this patch behind the scenes don't really accomplish this, it's making a transition for players to do all types of content with ease, there is no level to climb, there is no progression to be had. While some players like this, the general feedback on this is that the game is going to get boring and becomes a vertical progression rather than horizontal, and honestly what benefit does this have to your end game community, the PvE guilds, the PvP guilds, the new guys wanting to get into ESO.

We are seeing a move by the company we have never seen before and it really is an ugly side to see, while I understand the benefits of appealing for short term customers, it is unappealing to ignore your long term players like this. This isn't a way of being like "my feedback isn't being listened to", it's more eye opening that a company that the community have helped so much are taking a turn in which direction they are heading for their overall game, and honestly this coming patch Morrowind is horribly disrespectful for raiders feedback, there is a lot of behind the scenes comments being made about this that isn't really seeing the light.

Anyway, that's my rant. I feel like the direction Zenimax is heading, and it's a shame because so much of the community has voiced their opinions on this patch and in the past that a lot of the feedback is being looked past, and I get it we are in the minority so a lot of what we say at this point is going to be looked past, it's just highly disappointing to see this happen. I will personally stick around to see how this goes, but I can't see this heading in a good direction for the End Game if this keeps up. Not only that, but the general health of the game.

Not like it matters or anything but just to give you guys a look at how much we as in the community have changed the game with our feedback over the years. I truly wish I could post a Halls of Fabrication video in here just to give an example, or something else from Morrowind.
Edited by Nifty2g on May 7, 2017 12:06AM
#MOREORBS
  • DPShiro
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    Agree, well said^
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  • Nifty2g
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    DPShiro wrote: »
    Agree, well said^
    Thanks, though it was mostly a bunch of venting. Sad to see a game you and your friends truly love take a turn for the worst. I hope to see ZOS change their "philosophy"
    #MOREORBS
  • Function
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    I agree, this direction that they are taking saddens me.
  • Mojmir
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    Nifty2g wrote: »
    DPShiro wrote: »
    Agree, well said^
    Thanks, though it was mostly a bunch of venting. Sad to see a game you and your friends truly love take a turn for the worst. I hope to see ZOS change their "philosophy"

    Agreed
  • ManInTheArena
    ManInTheArena
    Soul Shriven
    Agreed
  • flizomica
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    insightful post, agreed
  • IronCrystal
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    Agreed
    Make PC NA raiding great again!

    Down with drama!


    What Mechanics Healer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer

    Homestead Raid Scores
    vHRC 157,030
    vAA 138,287
    vSO 153,393
    vMoL 154,550

    Not raiding in Morrowind
  • Inig0
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    This is a sentiment that im worries not enough people are feeling out of pure ignorance. The scariest part of the ridiculous things that has come out of Rich's mouth is definitely where they say they are wanting to take the game. What happens when that is not where your loyal player base that has been here for years wants the game to go. You lose your so called beloved community and replace it with (for lack of better words) casuals with money. While i get that this game is a business but a community like that is not worthwhile and wont last. That will create a disingenuous community which is not the community that ZOS has claimed helped them become as successful as they have been.
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  • Slakk
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    It's not really fun to watch.

    ZoS seems to adapt a different design philosophy every single major update, and some have worked better than others.

    The whole update just seems like so many steps back in terms of game diversity.
    The cost reduction changes certainly favor some builds more than others.

    The end-game community was really starting to get better, and now it seems like a lot of community progression is going down the tubes. There's not much being done at all to improve the current game we see on live. Just some new content, and many steps back in terms of playability with that fantastic RNG system many people have wanted to see improved.
  • reesenorman
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    Goodbye raiding community, nice knowing you guys :(
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  • Oompuh
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    *claps*

    Every ESO Live I get the feeling we are no longer being talked to about the state of the game, we are being talked at. I feel this doubly as a console player who can't even go into maw without crashing since last patch and we got a new patch coming with a new trial that might not be playable. We can't even play the content that they're ignoring.

    Also, can we release the damn NDA?
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  • F7sus4
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    If they, hypothetically, have lost raiders as a whole, there would be no one to balance the game for them anymore.
  • Nifty2g
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    F7sus4 wrote: »
    If they, hypothetically, have lost raiders as a whole, there would be no one to balance the game for them anymore.
    From the direction we're going, I think that's sorta what they want. Game easier as a whole.
    #MOREORBS
  • Fingolfinn01
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    Difficult end game raiding is a good way to secure long term customers. The grind to get there should be about time and a learning curve. And there should be a nightmare option that provides unique loot like mounts armour and weapons.

    Also there should be a raider finder as well. So that casuals and weekend warriors can experience the content. Though the loot should reflect the difficulty.


    Edited by Fingolfinn01 on May 7, 2017 1:01AM
    PC-NA
  • usmcjdking
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    Inig0 wrote: »
    This is a sentiment that im worries not enough people are feeling out of pure ignorance.

    This is not true. I'd venture to state it's actually the exact opposite.

    ESO, like every other MMO, will constantly try to flush it's elites out. That is the primary purpose of instituting changes to this degree. This isn't done out of spite or malice, it's done because it needs to happen. Your seat at the table is a finite space - the information and feedback your provide is linear. A company and developers cannot have customers have a monopoly at the speaking table. The longer you hang onto it, the worse it wracks your mind until you eventually quit; check on the forums 6 months later and notice all new elite names and faces and the game still chugging on making a killing.

    This happened with EQ.
    This happened MULTIPLE times with WOW.
    This happened with City of Heroes (although nowhere near as pronounced, best MMO to date).
    This happened with LOTRO.
    This happened with Neverwinter.
    And now it's happening with ESO.

    All you need to do is look at gaming communities that have been together 20+ years. Most of the elites would call them bad or whatever, but people are quick to forget often times these communities were in your exact same position 5-10-15 years ago. Do you see their outrage? No lol, because they know the business.

    ESO and community lose nothing by losing the top players - it simply replaces them. It's a rough pill to swallow due to pride but that's how it works.
    Edited by usmcjdking on May 7, 2017 12:56AM
    0331
    0602
  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    I'm worried raiding is going to take a pretty big nose dive after morrowind. It really sucks especially when you've put so much time into this game and have your group of ppl you play with all decide they want no part in the next update. Let's hope something changes in the future because end game raiders won't stick around for zos' ***.
  • Nifty2g
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Inig0 wrote: »
    This is a sentiment that im worries not enough people are feeling out of pure ignorance.

    This is not true. I'd venture to state it's actually the exact opposite.

    ESO, like every other MMO, will constantly try to flush it's elites out. That is the primary purpose of instituting changes to this degree. This isn't done out of spite or malice, it's done because it needs to happen. Your seat at the table is a finite space - the information and feedback your provide is linear. A company and developers cannot have customers have a monopoly at the speaking table. The longer you hang onto it, the worse it wracks your mind until you eventually quit; check on the forums 6 months later and notice all new elite names and faces and the game still chugging on making a killing.

    This happened with EQ.
    This happened MULTIPLE times with WOW.
    This happened with City of Heroes (although nowhere near as pronounced, best MMO to date).
    This happened with LOTRO.
    This happened with Neverwinter.
    And now it's happening with ESO.

    All you need to do is look at gaming communities that have been together 20+ years. Most of the elites would call them bad or whatever, but people are quick to forget often times these communities were in your exact same position 5-10-15 years ago. Do you see their outrage? No lol, because they know the business.

    ESO and community lose nothing by losing the top players - it simply replaces them. It's a rough pill to swallow due to pride but that's how it works.
    Until now ESO was unlike the rest, maybe they might go back to it. It's doubtful. Just sad to see a company take that road.
    #MOREORBS
  • usmcjdking
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    Nifty2g wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Inig0 wrote: »
    This is a sentiment that im worries not enough people are feeling out of pure ignorance.

    This is not true. I'd venture to state it's actually the exact opposite.

    ESO, like every other MMO, will constantly try to flush it's elites out. That is the primary purpose of instituting changes to this degree. This isn't done out of spite or malice, it's done because it needs to happen. Your seat at the table is a finite space - the information and feedback your provide is linear. A company and developers cannot have customers have a monopoly at the speaking table. The longer you hang onto it, the worse it wracks your mind until you eventually quit; check on the forums 6 months later and notice all new elite names and faces and the game still chugging on making a killing.

    This happened with EQ.
    This happened MULTIPLE times with WOW.
    This happened with City of Heroes (although nowhere near as pronounced, best MMO to date).
    This happened with LOTRO.
    This happened with Neverwinter.
    And now it's happening with ESO.

    All you need to do is look at gaming communities that have been together 20+ years. Most of the elites would call them bad or whatever, but people are quick to forget often times these communities were in your exact same position 5-10-15 years ago. Do you see their outrage? No lol, because they know the business.

    ESO and community lose nothing by losing the top players - it simply replaces them. It's a rough pill to swallow due to pride but that's how it works.
    Until now ESO was unlike the rest, maybe they might go back to it. It's doubtful. Just sad to see a company take that road.

    It's not sad. They have to go that route. I'm sorry but you cannot dictate endgame for as long as you please, or based on your merits as a player. That is a tremendous amount of power in a player that has absolutely NO VESTED INTEREST in anything other than their own communities.

    I'm not trying to knock on you here for this post - it's sincere and there are some qualitative points to it.

    But this is probably the 5th or 6th time I've seen this post. Not on this forum for clarification.
    Edited by usmcjdking on May 7, 2017 1:09AM
    0331
    0602
  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Nifty2g wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Inig0 wrote: »
    This is a sentiment that im worries not enough people are feeling out of pure ignorance.

    This is not true. I'd venture to state it's actually the exact opposite.

    ESO, like every other MMO, will constantly try to flush it's elites out. That is the primary purpose of instituting changes to this degree. This isn't done out of spite or malice, it's done because it needs to happen. Your seat at the table is a finite space - the information and feedback your provide is linear. A company and developers cannot have customers have a monopoly at the speaking table. The longer you hang onto it, the worse it wracks your mind until you eventually quit; check on the forums 6 months later and notice all new elite names and faces and the game still chugging on making a killing.

    This happened with EQ.
    This happened MULTIPLE times with WOW.
    This happened with City of Heroes (although nowhere near as pronounced, best MMO to date).
    This happened with LOTRO.
    This happened with Neverwinter.
    And now it's happening with ESO.

    All you need to do is look at gaming communities that have been together 20+ years. Most of the elites would call them bad or whatever, but people are quick to forget often times these communities were in your exact same position 5-10-15 years ago. Do you see their outrage? No lol, because they know the business.

    ESO and community lose nothing by losing the top players - it simply replaces them. It's a rough pill to swallow due to pride but that's how it works.
    Until now ESO was unlike the rest, maybe they might go back to it. It's doubtful. Just sad to see a company take that road.

    It's not sad. They have to go that route. I'm sorry but you cannot dictate endgame for as long as you please, or based on your merits as a player. That is a tremendous amount of power in a player that has absolutely NO VESTED INTEREST in anything other than their own communities.

    I'm not trying to knock on you here for this post - it's sincere and there are some qualitative points to it.

    But this is probably the 5th or 6th time I've seen this post.

    Only because we can't stand to see our hobby die out. Venting is our only outlet at this point.
  • mewcatus
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    It makes no monetary sense to focus on the 1% or less in terms of end game rather than the 99% who are doing the rest of the content. If anything, they should focus on the latter, bringing more content there as that is where the money comes from.
  • vyndral13preub18_ESO
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    Slakk wrote: »
    It's not really fun to watch.

    ZoS seems to adapt a different design philosophy every single major update, and some have worked better than others.

    The whole update just seems like so many steps back in terms of game diversity.
    The cost reduction changes certainly favor some builds more than others.

    The end-game community was really starting to get better, and now it seems like a lot of community progression is going down the tubes. There's not much being done at all to improve the current game we see on live. Just some new content, and many steps back in terms of playability with that fantastic RNG system many people have wanted to see improved.

    This is what scares me. While I don't play ESO as much as I use to, I certainly don't want to see it go anywhere. And I know people will rush in and say how great eso is doing. But as you and many point out it seems like they change their minds every couple of months.

    So you are left drawing one of two conclusions... as people say the game is doing great! And the changes are simply a company being a company and in their greed trying to strip as much cash as they can from their players. Or two the game isn't doing as well as some think and they keep changing, trying to turn the game into a viable product that produces better.

    Neither option is all that fantastic.
  • Oompuh
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    mewcatus wrote: »
    It makes no monetary sense to focus on the 1% or less in terms of end game rather than the 99% who are doing the rest of the content. If anything, they should focus on the latter, bringing more content there as that is where the money comes from.

    Short term, yes. Long term, no. The people at the bottom will bring you money at first, but then they will become end-game and be apart of the end game community. If you aren't giving anything to end game, they will leave. However, if you cater to end game, less people will pick up the game to start but those people will stay. They will probably end up spending more in the cash shop and dlcs than new players and you will have a healthy community rather than revolving door players. Plus, end game raiding gurus bring content and advertisement to their game FOR FREE. Losing them is a big loss
    Xbox NA - Oompa
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  • flizomica
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    The end game 'elitists' are the ones streaming and creating content - builds, guides, etc - for the more casual playerbase. It's not healthy for the game nor community for those people to jump ship.
  • mewcatus
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    Oompuh wrote: »
    mewcatus wrote: »
    It makes no monetary sense to focus on the 1% or less in terms of end game rather than the 99% who are doing the rest of the content. If anything, they should focus on the latter, bringing more content there as that is where the money comes from.

    Short term, yes. Long term, no. The people at the bottom will bring you money at first, but then they will become end-game and be apart of the end game community. If you aren't giving anything to end game, they will leave. However, if you cater to end game, less people will pick up the game to start but those people will stay. They will probably end up spending more in the cash shop and dlcs than new players and you will have a healthy community rather than revolving door players. Plus, end game raiding gurus bring content and advertisement to their game FOR FREE. Losing them is a big loss

    I disagree with that. The problem with catering to the people for stay the long term is that they make more and more strenuous demands , making them far harder to satisfy. Their resistance to change often results in disproportionate vocal demands. The cost to justify satisfying the ones who stay may not even make bank, as the other 99% might never have a chance to experience said content as they have not reached that point.
    Edited by mewcatus on May 7, 2017 1:25AM
  • MehrunesFlagon
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    I agree with Nifty, although I'm not in the same league as him. We do seem to have some of the same points of view on this. Yes these changes and such are going to have the biggest impact on progression groups and not the 1%.Additionally the absurd notion of ZOS wanting pve and pvp to be one cohesive, disgusting blob that will never achieve balance. All in all, I think zos has too much of a love affair with their short term player base in contrast with the long term. Besides, we will eventually have to pose question of whether or not ESO can sustain it'self under the current model once TES6 is released.
  • sirtadzio
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    Agreed; and it's sad to see near and dear friends made over the last few years and months moving on due to the direction that things are moving. The unanimity of many people in regards to the negative direction of the game shows how tight the community is, and it's disappointing to see it slowly disappate like this...car crash in slow motion.
    Edited by sirtadzio on May 7, 2017 1:43AM
    PvE Healer
  • iRogue32
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    100% agree
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  • sirtadzio
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    Also: How many times do people have to post about these major concerns before we receive some acknowledgement from zos? @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ? You comment on someone's recent thread on willows path being bugged and the like, which is great, but there is this giant elephant in the room, which has been addressed in dozens of posts in a variety of methods and tones: factually, respectfully, emotionally, and in a variety of other ways, and we get...silence... feel brushed under the rug. Frustrating given the hours all of us have put in the game, dollars into subscriptions and crow store treats, houses, and importantly as nifty stated, in creating social media content to inspire people and essentially give you free advertising to recruit more players
    Edited by sirtadzio on May 7, 2017 1:48AM
    PvE Healer
  • KingJ
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    I'm mainly a PVP player who started raiding to get VO for VMA.I fall in love with raiding its fun I enjoy it.I'm not part of the top 1% like @Nifty2g close to it I can pull 30k self buff currently with my magplar and 35k with my magsorc. We group earn Good scores and its fun especially when I had a bad PvP night and just pissed at the game doing a raid with my friends is relaxing and make me want to logon the next day instead of breaking the game. The patch notes was a kick in the gut and from my experience during the new trial its not fun anymore. Heavy attack magic sorc there no fun anymore.Its heavy attack build or gtfo. How is that fun gameplay?We tell you the changes are bad and what do you guys do ignore us what's the point.

    I applaud you @Nifty2g for sticking it out next patch but I know a lot of people I raid with and play with who are done.We can't even do VMOL 73 days now and unplayable.Hopefully they can fix something and revert a few changes to make players have faith in them again.
  • andreasranasen
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    @Nifty2g You know very well Zenimax doesn't give a single *** about us players. We've seen that on the Beta Forum page. They haven't replied to a single thread...
    #VMATOKENSYSTEM #WEAPONDYE #TRAITCHANGE #CROWNCRATELOVER
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