Zenimax, what happened to connecting with your End Game?

ComboBreaker88

I agree with you + 100. This is better written than my thread. And I was harsh in mine. But someone needs to stand up to them. To put it in perspective for some of the new players, I'm so disgusted by the direction of the game I gave my guild away and all the gold in its bank (about 25 million.) It's sad that ZOS doesn't listen to the players who help build this community behind the scenes. But if they want to keep moving thay direction, fine. There are other games. I'll stick around the forums and hope they decide to fix things and implement meaningful changes. But I'm not giving them anymore of my money or game time to a company that essentially gave the middle finger to the majority of its veteran players.

timidobserver

usmcjdking wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

This is a sentiment that im worries not enough people are feeling out of pure ignorance.

This is not true. I'd venture to state it's actually the exact opposite.

ESO, like every other MMO, will constantly try to flush it's elites out. That is the primary purpose of instituting changes to this degree. This isn't done out of spite or malice, it's done because it needs to happen. Your seat at the table is a finite space - the information and feedback your provide is linear. A company and developers cannot have customers have a monopoly at the speaking table. The longer you hang onto it, the worse it wracks your mind until you eventually quit; check on the forums 6 months later and notice all new elite names and faces and the game still chugging on making a killing.

This happened with EQ.
This happened MULTIPLE times with WOW.
This happened with City of Heroes (although nowhere near as pronounced, best MMO to date).
This happened with LOTRO.
This happened with Neverwinter.
And now it's happening with ESO.

All you need to do is look at gaming communities that have been together 20+ years. Most of the elites would call them bad or whatever, but people are quick to forget often times these communities were in your exact same position 5-10-15 years ago. Do you see their outrage? No lol, because they know the business.

ESO and community lose nothing by losing the top players - it simply replaces them. It's a rough pill to swallow due to pride but that's how it works.

This is true, but sometimes if they go too far too fast it is hard to recover. It is natural to gradually shed long term players that can't adapt to the evolving direction of the game, because like you said, they just get replaced. However, they don't want an simultaneous ragequit of most of the endgame community. Star Wars Galaxies NGE is one example of that happening. Fortunately, I don't think it's nearly as bad as NGE just yet, but their current direction does share many similarities like sweeping changes for the sake of simplification.

DisgracefulMind

Homestead patch and the one right before was a very high time for end-game Raiding. The community was thriving. On PC/NA, more and more raid guilds were forming, more players were playing the raiding content, more people were interested in end-game, and more players were working towards huge goals for their teams such as completing Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj HM.

I thought that PvE wouldn't recover for some time when it dried up after 1.6, and it didn't for awhile, but my raid group stuck through it through a very dry time and our dedication paid off at the level of fun end-game raiding was this last patch. It was amazing to see so many new players on the end-game scene, it was wonderful to see how many people were finally interested, and it was great to see people finally playing the raid content that ZoS has had this whole time.

Morrowind will kill this. The direction the game is going for next patch will ruin this. No longer will you see the floods of players who are interested in dedicating to end-game raiding. In fact, you will barely see the already dedicated guilds continuing to be dedicated at all. Sure, more will come eventually, maybe, but PvE end-game will be dry for quite some time like it was before this peak. Homestead was the prime for end-game PvE in ESO. I don't think raiding has ever been this amazing.

It hurts to see ZoS intentionally killing this. It hurts to see my friends and my community not even interested anymore.

None of us are asking ZoS to give us a monopoly on what happens in this game. None of us are demanding ZoS make every single change we want. Most of us have been here through the beginning and have dealt with rough times in this game, yet we've stuck it out. But I think Morrowind was the patch a lot of end-game players were looking to, and a lot of those players feel quite crushed at the moment.

This isn't about wanting to do as we please. This isn't about wanting end-game to stay exclusive to few people. This isn't about restraining ourselves to our own "communities". This is about us having always pushed for this game to be healthy. This is about us wanting content to be pushed for all players. We have always pushed for positive changes in this game. This isn't about us wanting to be selfish, this is about us not wanting to see something so good ruined so quickly.

ZoS, let your players strive for improvement, let them be challenged. What you're creating with Morrowind isn't challenging, it's just frustrating. Connect with all of your players, not just one group. The end-game raiders are the ones who post countless guides to help the community, they're the ones who discover builds for players to work towards, they're the ones who help people understand your game and its mechanics. We are the sources of tons of information that becomes available to the entire community. So, no, we're not trying to be exclusive, we're trying to ensure that end-game PvE has some longevity not just for the sake of ourselves, but for all players in ESO. At this rate, it will not. Please reconsider what you're doing, ZoS.

Nebthet78

I agree with you 100% Nifty. I'm no where near your level of gameplay and even I'm feeling the nerf hammer really badly with these changes. I'm sick and tired of having my progress taken away from me with every single one of their updates lately. I don't play a game to feel gimped. I play to improve, and due to my own disabilities and play style, CP used to be able to help out to compensate where I was never ever going to be as skilled as the elite players.

ZOS seems to think that these changes are great and boy, do they need to take the blinders off. If they think this is going to make things easier for casual players to do the content. Think again. They lowered the ceiling, but they sure as hells did not raise the floor. This is going to make the elite raiders just that more elite. They are already getting tired of traiing new players and don't want to do it any more. I've already seen several guilds implode due to this, as top tier players get fed up and go create their own elite guild shutting out any one that doesn't meet their criteria, even those they used to call friend. This will only get worse with the majority of elites who remain with the game afterwards.

Over simplicity in a game tells me they not only don't know what they are doing (other than yes manning where Marketing tells them to go), but they don't have the manpower to deal with even mid-level play styles and the skills that go with them. They really need to separate PVE and PVP. Actually, find a whole new Engine for the game to work within.

I really wish there was someone who had the ability to take the video and what not who has access to the Morrowind Beta and who knows they are officially done with the game who isn't afraid to break the NDA to release all the bad crap that is going on with where things are in the game.

Wake up people. The fact that there is as much damage control and BS happening and attempting to shut people up from saying anything tells a lot more about what is going on in the background and how bad these changes are and ZOS not wanting to listen to their customers, than what they are allowing to be shown out there.

Nifty2g

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

This is a sentiment that im worries not enough people are feeling out of pure ignorance.

This is not true. I'd venture to state it's actually the exact opposite.

ESO, like every other MMO, will constantly try to flush it's elites out. That is the primary purpose of instituting changes to this degree. This isn't done out of spite or malice, it's done because it needs to happen. Your seat at the table is a finite space - the information and feedback your provide is linear. A company and developers cannot have customers have a monopoly at the speaking table. The longer you hang onto it, the worse it wracks your mind until you eventually quit; check on the forums 6 months later and notice all new elite names and faces and the game still chugging on making a killing.

This happened with EQ.
This happened MULTIPLE times with WOW.
This happened with City of Heroes (although nowhere near as pronounced, best MMO to date).
This happened with LOTRO.
This happened with Neverwinter.
And now it's happening with ESO.

All you need to do is look at gaming communities that have been together 20+ years. Most of the elites would call them bad or whatever, but people are quick to forget often times these communities were in your exact same position 5-10-15 years ago. Do you see their outrage? No lol, because they know the business.

ESO and community lose nothing by losing the top players - it simply replaces them. It's a rough pill to swallow due to pride but that's how it works.

Until now ESO was unlike the rest, maybe they might go back to it. It's doubtful. Just sad to see a company take that road.

It's not sad. They have to go that route. I'm sorry but you cannot dictate endgame for as long as you please, or based on your merits as a player. That is a tremendous amount of power in a player that has absolutely NO VESTED INTEREST in anything other than their own communities.

I'm not trying to knock on you here for this post - it's sincere and there are some qualitative points to it.

But this is probably the 5th or 6th time I've seen this post. Not on this forum for clarification.

What do you mean, they don't have to go this route at all. Going this route means they're not aiming for long active players but DLC short term instead.

Galwylin

The thing about this patch to me is it isn't for one single player playing the game today. They love saying lower the ceiling and raise the floor. We see the ceiling coming down but what about the floor? What about this patch does anything to raise the floor. The things they promote as raising it look to do the exact opposite. Yes, the distance between the two is smaller but that's just because the ceiling is lower. The floor also looks to be lower.

If the patch isn't for your players then what's the point of it. Nerfing classes left and right doesn't help because we all play those classes. If its harder for a good player then its going to be harder for a player like me who is just now at the point of experimenting with my classes. Trying new things and changing things up because it things go south, I've got some cushion to fall back on. But your taking away the cushion.

So, why not next ESO Live you explain exactly how these changes improve the lower tier player. Changing a skill that cost almost as much as it restores is ludicrous so I'd like that explained to see if you get how dumb it sounds when said out loud. And that's only one of the changes. Increasing stamina gain for a magicka user is another. How does that even get past discussion. It sounds crazy right off the bat. Dragonknight stamina builds having their healing based off their magicka was the patch before is the same type. How does that dumb stuff keep getting pass your own personal quality control. Yet, here we are again having abilities changed to offer the most useless thing the class needs during its use.

Vaoh

usmcjdking wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

This is a sentiment that im worries not enough people are feeling out of pure ignorance.

This is not true. I'd venture to state it's actually the exact opposite.

ESO, like every other MMO, will constantly try to flush it's elites out. That is the primary purpose of instituting changes to this degree. This isn't done out of spite or malice, it's done because it needs to happen. Your seat at the table is a finite space - the information and feedback your provide is linear. A company and developers cannot have customers have a monopoly at the speaking table. The longer you hang onto it, the worse it wracks your mind until you eventually quit; check on the forums 6 months later and notice all new elite names and faces and the game still chugging on making a killing.

This happened with EQ.
This happened MULTIPLE times with WOW.
This happened with City of Heroes (although nowhere near as pronounced, best MMO to date).
This happened with LOTRO.
This happened with Neverwinter.
And now it's happening with ESO.

All you need to do is look at gaming communities that have been together 20+ years. Most of the elites would call them bad or whatever, but people are quick to forget often times these communities were in your exact same position 5-10-15 years ago. Do you see their outrage? No lol, because they know the business.

ESO and community lose nothing by losing the top players - it simply replaces them. It's a rough pill to swallow due to pride but that's how it works.

Is this true? I don't have the knowledge you say you do on these things. ESO is my first MMO!

How popular is ESO compared to all of those games these days?

usmcjdking

Nifty2g wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

This is a sentiment that im worries not enough people are feeling out of pure ignorance.

This is not true. I'd venture to state it's actually the exact opposite.

ESO, like every other MMO, will constantly try to flush it's elites out. That is the primary purpose of instituting changes to this degree. This isn't done out of spite or malice, it's done because it needs to happen. Your seat at the table is a finite space - the information and feedback your provide is linear. A company and developers cannot have customers have a monopoly at the speaking table. The longer you hang onto it, the worse it wracks your mind until you eventually quit; check on the forums 6 months later and notice all new elite names and faces and the game still chugging on making a killing.

This happened with EQ.
This happened MULTIPLE times with WOW.
This happened with City of Heroes (although nowhere near as pronounced, best MMO to date).
This happened with LOTRO.
This happened with Neverwinter.
And now it's happening with ESO.

All you need to do is look at gaming communities that have been together 20+ years. Most of the elites would call them bad or whatever, but people are quick to forget often times these communities were in your exact same position 5-10-15 years ago. Do you see their outrage? No lol, because they know the business.

ESO and community lose nothing by losing the top players - it simply replaces them. It's a rough pill to swallow due to pride but that's how it works.

Until now ESO was unlike the rest, maybe they might go back to it. It's doubtful. Just sad to see a company take that road.

It's not sad. They have to go that route. I'm sorry but you cannot dictate endgame for as long as you please, or based on your merits as a player. That is a tremendous amount of power in a player that has absolutely NO VESTED INTEREST in anything other than their own communities.

I'm not trying to knock on you here for this post - it's sincere and there are some qualitative points to it.

But this is probably the 5th or 6th time I've seen this post. Not on this forum for clarification.

What do you mean, they don't have to go this route at all. Going this route means they're not aiming for long active players but DLC short term instead.

I have a feeling you are not objectively looking at the direction ESO is going and it's making you think they are trying to aim at a different demographic, when they are trying to usher in a new guard for more intelligible feedback to get them to their desired endstate. The blinders are not on, they are very aware they are going to temporarily crush their endgame community in participation, content creation, and population. Whilst that most certainly isn't the goal, it's a natural by-product of revitalizing an otherwise stagnant combat system that (and I'm not blaming anyone in general) has grown in power way beyond what the core game even supports due to feedback and end game appeasing. This is not new, it's not the first time it's ever happened and it won't be the last time.

Our individual value to the developers as players is not very high, orders of magnitudes lower than you probably think. The level at which a player understands a game and completes content at does not correlate to greater value, either. The guide makers and content creators are unimportant as there are hundreds more willing to take the place of the top dog regardless of what the developers do to the game. This is why a lot of feedback I see on PTS/Beta forums is ultimately pointless. The direction the game is going is straight back to it's roots in a very harsh manner and a lot of feedback is basically nothing more than "we don't like the core gameplay". If feedback isn't within the constraints of aiming to get the game back to it's core, then the feedback is pointless to the developers.

As players, we do have strength collectively - but you have to keep in mind that we are quite easily replaceable. Because we are replaceable, our conveyed attitude can easily backfire. The last thing people should be doing right now is raging even harder and providing feedback that is even greater in uselessness than previously submitted. They will not listen to you, us or anyone else until you have made it clear that you accept the direction the game is going and are doing nothing more than trying to get the game further in that direction. This goes without saying some changes make absolutely no sense whatsoever towards direction, or application (javelin change, siphoning strikes doing just about nothing???????????) and feeback is important there.

ultimately, player perception is important to them. However, it's easier, more economical, and better for their established game direction to ignore the bad perception(ers?) to the point they just leave the game than it is to deal with them. I made the exact same post you did when Planes of Power released for EQ almost 15 years ago, then subsequently quit the game along with a ton of us in Vagrants. Then Vagrants merged with Royal Norathian Guard and they just kept on keeping on doing stuff that made the other raids look like cakewalks which made me jealous. In retrospect, I wish I didn't quit. You can either learn it yourself or have other people learn it for you - it does suck & sting though.

A lot of people with bail once Morrowind hits. Well known raid guilds will become a shadow of what they once were, some dissolve entirely. But I guarantee you that by late July once the dust has settled some new batch of people will be working on HM VMOL.

usmcjdking

Vaoh wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

This is a sentiment that im worries not enough people are feeling out of pure ignorance.

This is not true. I'd venture to state it's actually the exact opposite.

ESO, like every other MMO, will constantly try to flush it's elites out. That is the primary purpose of instituting changes to this degree. This isn't done out of spite or malice, it's done because it needs to happen. Your seat at the table is a finite space - the information and feedback your provide is linear. A company and developers cannot have customers have a monopoly at the speaking table. The longer you hang onto it, the worse it wracks your mind until you eventually quit; check on the forums 6 months later and notice all new elite names and faces and the game still chugging on making a killing.

This happened with EQ.
This happened MULTIPLE times with WOW.
This happened with City of Heroes (although nowhere near as pronounced, best MMO to date).
This happened with LOTRO.
This happened with Neverwinter.
And now it's happening with ESO.

All you need to do is look at gaming communities that have been together 20+ years. Most of the elites would call them bad or whatever, but people are quick to forget often times these communities were in your exact same position 5-10-15 years ago. Do you see their outrage? No lol, because they know the business.

ESO and community lose nothing by losing the top players - it simply replaces them. It's a rough pill to swallow due to pride but that's how it works.

Is this true? I don't have the knowledge you say you do on these things. ESO is my first MMO!

How popular is ESO compared to all of those games these days?

Since it's different times, all we can really do is adjust based on the MMO market.

EQ had a stranglehold and a gargantuan chunk of the MMO market at the time - probably the highest percentage wise. So - comparatively larger. WOW was less than EQ percentage wise of the market during it's zenith but had a much, much higher numerical base. COH had an excessively loyal fanbase (iirc COH had the longest subscriber retention rate to date) and absolutely no endgame for the first 9 years or so, but had a smaller market share. LOTRO was pretty much a WOW clone with a good pop due to name but low market share. Neverwinter Online has surpassed WOWs peak numerically, and with it being completely free it has decent retention.

I'd put ESO right next to LOTRO.

Smolt

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Homestead patch and the one right before was a very high time for end-game Raiding. The community was thriving. On PC/NA, more and more raid guilds were forming, more players were playing the raiding content, more people were interested in end-game, and more players were working towards huge goals for their teams such as completing Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj HM.

I thought that PvE wouldn't recover for some time when it dried up after 1.6, and it didn't for awhile, but my raid group stuck through it through a very dry time and our dedication paid off at the level of fun end-game raiding was this last patch. It was amazing to see so many new players on the end-game scene, it was wonderful to see how many people were finally interested, and it was great to see people finally playing the raid content that ZoS has had this whole time.

Morrowind will kill this. The direction the game is going for next patch will ruin this. No longer will you see the floods of players who are interested in dedicating to end-game raiding. In fact, you will barely see the already dedicated guilds continuing to be dedicated at all. Sure, more will come eventually, maybe, but PvE end-game will be dry for quite some time like it was before this peak. Homestead was the prime for end-game PvE in ESO. I don't think raiding has ever been this amazing.

It hurts to see ZoS intentionally killing this. It hurts to see my friends and my community not even interested anymore.

None of us are asking ZoS to give us a monopoly on what happens in this game. None of us are demanding ZoS make every single change we want. Most of us have been here through the beginning and have dealt with rough times in this game, yet we've stuck it out. But I think Morrowind was the patch a lot of end-game players were looking to, and a lot of those players feel quite crushed at the moment.

This isn't about wanting to do as we please. This isn't about wanting end-game to stay exclusive to few people. This isn't about restraining ourselves to our own "communities". This is about us having always pushed for this game to be healthy. This is about us wanting content to be pushed for all players. We have always pushed for positive changes in this game. This isn't about us wanting to be selfish, this is about us not wanting to see something so good ruined so quickly.

ZoS, let your players strive for improvement, let them be challenged. What you're creating with Morrowind isn't challenging, it's just frustrating. Connect with all of your players, not just one group. The end-game raiders are the ones who post countless guides to help the community, they're the ones who discover builds for players to work towards, they're the ones who help people understand your game and its mechanics. We are the sources of tons of information that becomes available to the entire community. So, no, we're not trying to be exclusive, we're trying to ensure that end-game PvE has some longevity not just for the sake of ourselves, but for all players in ESO. At this rate, it will not. Please reconsider what you're doing, ZoS.

*slow clap*

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert You need to read this

Very well said, and I wonder how many of the optimists who are blowing off the "Doom and Gloom" have cleared VMA on the PTS or done any other extensive testing. It's still doable, just a lot less fun now IMHO. I believe the changes will hurt new players more than anyone, top players will adapt (if they stay). I think allot of people are whistling past a graveyard here...

Nifty2g

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

This is a sentiment that im worries not enough people are feeling out of pure ignorance.

This is not true. I'd venture to state it's actually the exact opposite.

ESO, like every other MMO, will constantly try to flush it's elites out. That is the primary purpose of instituting changes to this degree. This isn't done out of spite or malice, it's done because it needs to happen. Your seat at the table is a finite space - the information and feedback your provide is linear. A company and developers cannot have customers have a monopoly at the speaking table. The longer you hang onto it, the worse it wracks your mind until you eventually quit; check on the forums 6 months later and notice all new elite names and faces and the game still chugging on making a killing.

This happened with EQ.
This happened MULTIPLE times with WOW.
This happened with City of Heroes (although nowhere near as pronounced, best MMO to date).
This happened with LOTRO.
This happened with Neverwinter.
And now it's happening with ESO.

All you need to do is look at gaming communities that have been together 20+ years. Most of the elites would call them bad or whatever, but people are quick to forget often times these communities were in your exact same position 5-10-15 years ago. Do you see their outrage? No lol, because they know the business.

ESO and community lose nothing by losing the top players - it simply replaces them. It's a rough pill to swallow due to pride but that's how it works.

Until now ESO was unlike the rest, maybe they might go back to it. It's doubtful. Just sad to see a company take that road.

It's not sad. They have to go that route. I'm sorry but you cannot dictate endgame for as long as you please, or based on your merits as a player. That is a tremendous amount of power in a player that has absolutely NO VESTED INTEREST in anything other than their own communities.

I'm not trying to knock on you here for this post - it's sincere and there are some qualitative points to it.

But this is probably the 5th or 6th time I've seen this post. Not on this forum for clarification.

What do you mean, they don't have to go this route at all. Going this route means they're not aiming for long active players but DLC short term instead.

I have a feeling you are not objectively looking at the direction ESO is going and it's making you think they are trying to aim at a different demographic, when they are trying to usher in a new guard for more intelligible feedback to get them to their desired endstate. The blinders are not on, they are very aware they are going to temporarily crush their endgame community in participation, content creation, and population. Whilst that most certainly isn't the goal, it's a natural by-product of revitalizing an otherwise stagnant combat system that (and I'm not blaming anyone in general) has grown in power way beyond what the core game even supports due to feedback and end game appeasing. This is not new, it's not the first time it's ever happened and it won't be the last time.

Our individual value to the developers as players is not very high, orders of magnitudes lower than you probably think. The level at which a player understands a game and completes content at does not correlate to greater value, either. The guide makers and content creators are unimportant as there are hundreds more willing to take the place of the top dog regardless of what the developers do to the game. This is why a lot of feedback I see on PTS/Beta forums is ultimately pointless. The direction the game is going is straight back to it's roots in a very harsh manner and a lot of feedback is basically nothing more than "we don't like the core gameplay". If feedback isn't within the constraints of aiming to get the game back to it's core, then the feedback is pointless to the developers.

As players, we do have strength collectively - but you have to keep in mind that we are quite easily replaceable. Because we are replaceable, our conveyed attitude can easily backfire. The last thing people should be doing right now is raging even harder and providing feedback that is even greater in uselessness than previously submitted. They will not listen to you, us or anyone else until you have made it clear that you accept the direction the game is going and are doing nothing more than trying to get the game further in that direction. This goes without saying some changes make absolutely no sense whatsoever towards direction, or application (javelin change, siphoning strikes doing just about nothing???????????) and feeback is important there.

ultimately, player perception is important to them. However, it's easier, more economical, and better for their established game direction to ignore the bad perception(ers?) to the point they just leave the game than it is to deal with them. I made the exact same post you did when Planes of Power released for EQ almost 15 years ago, then subsequently quit the game along with a ton of us in Vagrants. Then Vagrants merged with Royal Norathian Guard and they just kept on keeping on doing stuff that made the other raids look like cakewalks which made me jealous. In retrospect, I wish I didn't quit. You can either learn it yourself or have other people learn it for you - it does suck & sting though.

A lot of people with bail once Morrowind hits. Well known raid guilds will become a shadow of what they once were, some dissolve entirely. But I guarantee you that by late July once the dust has settled some new batch of people will be working on HM VMOL.

I think a lot of people are quitting because Zenimax are showing their ugly side actually, it's not about flushing people out at all, they are changing their "philosophy" like they decide to do every major patch these days, they probably looked at the numbers and seen that the game is doing better off in a more casual way. Even Matt Firor once said that they are aiming "content" at the solo player or the short term player, the way I took that and what I seen it as was that content is aimed at that not the core fundamental mechanic on how the game plays. Ever since that ESO Live hit you truly are able to piece it altogether and see what they are actually doing.

Players can't really sway the way they want to do things especially when ESO is doing this well. Don't even get me started on the cash shop, that's probably going to be the next step of this simplified game play, spend a small fee of $5 to get some purple gear/mats to help you on your way "slightly underpowered" than a dropped set though.

The biggest issue of this company is that they change their ideas every patch, they change their game so much, they basically rebalance everything every major patch. It's like playing a new MMO every 3 months. Regrind your gear, remake your gear. Nothing is ever stable, and it really is starting to show. And lets be honest, the game wont die at all, it's too appealing for the sit at home casual player who wants to play 5 times a month, there are too many of those people who make us in the minority where nothing matters.

And yes, this is sad, I've met so many people on this game that I've played with since Beta and since the first set of trials came out, people stuck around and helped Zenimax build a game to something great and then all that progress will be reset because we are no longer in their sights.

This is the first time I've ever thought what a joke this company is doing this to their customers. It shouldn't get to this point and when it does, and when this shows this is the slow downhill ride. A lot of the core players will leave come Morrowind and then even more when the reality sets in.

The worst part? I don't even want to leave or move on, this game has so much potential, this patch itself I was incredibly happy for. I'm not even raiding anymore, my guild sent in about 10 hours worth of footage and all of it was disregarded. Though they kept asking for more footage and what's the point.

Sigma957

What I am worried about is there are too many changes too soon with the upcoming update, while I understand it it is just going to make things take longer to do. Smaller changes would have been far better and we could have all adjusted quite easily.

idk

This is not the first time Zos has made a major change to how the game was played.

1.6, which those that started in the second year would know as 2.0 did a major revamp. Complete change on how ultimate was generated. CP was added to the game and overall we were made significantly weaker in every way which CP was to make up for it.

While 1.6 did mess with our sustain, amongst everything else, it does not compare to how the PTS is playing at this time. Essentially, Zos has decided the game needs to be played completely differently and disguises it as it by saying this has always been the way ESO was to be played.

This is also not the first time Zos' senior devs have decided to go a different route and said it was always their "vision". Ironically, they said it was their vision that we get our info from the environment, not from a UI, as their reasoning for abandoning the original normal MMO style UI. Ironically zos is adding buffs and debuffs to the base UI with the upcoming patch, quietly admitting the visual queues do not work as they need to.

Pretty much anyone who pushes PvE content is not pleased with these changes as a whole, the cost reduction changes in CP did not bring about much of an issue when they were announced. It is everything added on top of CP changes that has. Top raiders, the ones who top the leaderboards constantly, will survive though it may not be as fun (which fun is the most important aspect and should be the vision Zos strives for. Moderate raiding guilds and casual raiding guilds will suffer the most which is the greatest concern.

HuawaSepp

Sry but I can't see a combat/balance change which any player of the eso playerbase will profit from. Neither PVE or PVP.

As long as 99% of the playerbase can kill the overland mobs, I think there is no need to change anything in combat to make them happier.

The only thing I can assume is that farming monster sets/dsa weapons/vma weapons etc.
is too easy right now and don't consume enough time

playsforfun

@Nifty2g thanks for this post it's nice to see i'm not the only one who is upset about the direction of the game.

pattyLtd

I couldnt agree more.


When a significant part of the long time players considers leaving instead of being excited for the next expansion then that should be a reason the second guess yourself.

These changes just are way overboard and it just makes no sense to me not even out of a business point of view.
on the plus side it might help me cure this addiction

Valencer

usmcjdking wrote: »

This is not true. I'd venture to state it's actually the exact opposite.

ESO, like every other MMO, will constantly try to flush it's elites out. That is the primary purpose of instituting changes to this degree. This isn't done out of spite or malice, it's done because it needs to happen. Your seat at the table is a finite space - the information and feedback your provide is linear. A company and developers cannot have customers have a monopoly at the speaking table. The longer you hang onto it, the worse it wracks your mind until you eventually quit; check on the forums 6 months later and notice all new elite names and faces and the game still chugging on making a killing.

This happened with EQ.
This happened MULTIPLE times with WOW.
This happened with City of Heroes (although nowhere near as pronounced, best MMO to date).
This happened with LOTRO.
This happened with Neverwinter.
And now it's happening with ESO.

All you need to do is look at gaming communities that have been together 20+ years. Most of the elites would call them bad or whatever, but people are quick to forget often times these communities were in your exact same position 5-10-15 years ago. Do you see their outrage? No lol, because they know the business.

ESO and community lose nothing by losing the top players - it simply replaces them. It's a rough pill to swallow due to pride but that's how it works.

PvP-wise, that's not really what's happening though. Most of the good guilds are disbanding/quitting and nobody is filling the void. It's very noticeable on PC EU. Most of the guilds out there can only be identified by their tabards because they run right in the middle of the zergs.

There's going to be a new "elite" if there's something worth dedicating yourself to. Maybe PvE is different but Cyrodiil has me worried.

HatchetHaro

Mad props to OP, well said!

I love this game; I love my Argonian character and the friends I've made here; I love doing end-game content with my favourite raiding guild; I love the quests and the stories and the lore.

But this game is sick; there is way too much imbalance, stamina being pretty much dead, people rolling races just to push out more dps while the others are left behind on their favorite-but-inferior race character, the misplaced nerfs to proc sets, and now, a complete removal of any semblance of resource sustain that directly contributes to the huge nerf of damage overall as well as a complete playstyle change.

All this crap, with many voices speaking out against it, and yet ZOS decides to continue, citing continuity between PvE and PvP, yet it is this exact vision that plagues the game for the past patches and will spread even more in the next.

Zedrian

When Morrowind was announced and that it would have a new trial, we founded a raiding guild with players that were dedicated to overcome vet trials and now HM trials, in order to have a team to compete on the Morrowind trial. We are on console so we cannot spoil the mechanics and we thought we will enjoy the discovery of the new trial directly in Vet mode! Before joining us, the players we recruited were doing vMA, PvP and questing, and now are really invested in the guild and in themselves. They transformed their gameplay from 25-30k dps to 40k dps (all classes) because they are committed to improve and learn from the more veteran players. They keep on progressing and this is how you truly bring the floor up, by inciting newer players to learn combat mechanics (rotations, animation cancelling, burst vs. sustain, synergies, ultimates rotations) and survival in trials (awareness, shields in rotations, positioning) from more experienced players with exciting fast paced challenging group content. So far we have a lot of fun and our raiding team does 4 trials a week with only 18 members in the guild!! My team mates are thankful that they joined the group as they feel real progression and reward for their investment.

Since the 3.0.0 patch notes we no longer anticipate the release of Morrowind, we dread it. We want to savor every moment on HM trials that we can overcome as a team, while it lasts. In fact we stopped recruitment because we are scared that we won't have time to finish all HM trials if we have to re-train players within a month timeframe. I agree with @Nifty2g and thank you for expressing a opinion that many share in a very eloquent and respectful way.

lunalitetempler

Translation: I played since beta, I made a YouTube video I know what I'm talking about. I don't like the changes, revert them.

Masel

In terms of not answering anything. I have tagged them 10 times in my balancing thread in the beta forums and all I expected was "we saw this, will have a look", but no. 6500 words and a few days of work down the drain.

That was the point when I started to realise that the game might not be worth the time anymore.

I love the game and the people I play it with, but damn, it's so frustrating seeing ZoS ignore key flaws of the game (RNG, Trait and Set Balancing, Class imbalance in damage, yes I'm looking at you, sorcs) and instead they waste so much effort by nerfing sustain in literally all aspects.

Remove CP cost reduction? Fine, sounds like a good idea to nerf heavy armor. But then nerf light and medium armor even more? Nerf all skills that have to do with sustain... After hours and hours of testing on the PTS it just starts to get frustrating when you realise that the heavy attack builds you came up with as a fun alternative are now stronger than anything else...

Woeler

Yea, I once created the council of raiders. The goal of that was to bring endgame guilds and ZOS together. Worked for a few months. Now it's just a bugreport/brag/QQ channel. And more than half the guilds in there are as dead as they can get. I stopped beating that dead horse a long time ago.

We need something new.

Prive

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

This is a sentiment that im worries not enough people are feeling out of pure ignorance.

This is not true. I'd venture to state it's actually the exact opposite.

ESO, like every other MMO, will constantly try to flush it's elites out. That is the primary purpose of instituting changes to this degree. This isn't done out of spite or malice, it's done because it needs to happen. Your seat at the table is a finite space - the information and feedback your provide is linear. A company and developers cannot have customers have a monopoly at the speaking table. The longer you hang onto it, the worse it wracks your mind until you eventually quit; check on the forums 6 months later and notice all new elite names and faces and the game still chugging on making a killing.

This happened with EQ.
This happened MULTIPLE times with WOW.
This happened with City of Heroes (although nowhere near as pronounced, best MMO to date).
This happened with LOTRO.
This happened with Neverwinter.
And now it's happening with ESO.

All you need to do is look at gaming communities that have been together 20+ years. Most of the elites would call them bad or whatever, but people are quick to forget often times these communities were in your exact same position 5-10-15 years ago. Do you see their outrage? No lol, because they know the business.

ESO and community lose nothing by losing the top players - it simply replaces them. It's a rough pill to swallow due to pride but that's how it works.

Until now ESO was unlike the rest, maybe they might go back to it. It's doubtful. Just sad to see a company take that road.

It's not sad. They have to go that route. I'm sorry but you cannot dictate endgame for as long as you please, or based on your merits as a player. That is a tremendous amount of power in a player that has absolutely NO VESTED INTEREST in anything other than their own communities.

I'm not trying to knock on you here for this post - it's sincere and there are some qualitative points to it.

But this is probably the 5th or 6th time I've seen this post. Not on this forum for clarification.

What do you mean, they don't have to go this route at all. Going this route means they're not aiming for long active players but DLC short term instead.

I have a feeling you are not objectively looking at the direction ESO is going and it's making you think they are trying to aim at a different demographic, when they are trying to usher in a new guard for more intelligible feedback to get them to their desired endstate. The blinders are not on, they are very aware they are going to temporarily crush their endgame community in participation, content creation, and population. Whilst that most certainly isn't the goal, it's a natural by-product of revitalizing an otherwise stagnant combat system that (and I'm not blaming anyone in general) has grown in power way beyond what the core game even supports due to feedback and end game appeasing. This is not new, it's not the first time it's ever happened and it won't be the last time.

Our individual value to the developers as players is not very high, orders of magnitudes lower than you probably think. The level at which a player understands a game and completes content at does not correlate to greater value, either. The guide makers and content creators are unimportant as there are hundreds more willing to take the place of the top dog regardless of what the developers do to the game. This is why a lot of feedback I see on PTS/Beta forums is ultimately pointless. The direction the game is going is straight back to it's roots in a very harsh manner and a lot of feedback is basically nothing more than "we don't like the core gameplay". If feedback isn't within the constraints of aiming to get the game back to it's core, then the feedback is pointless to the developers.

As players, we do have strength collectively - but you have to keep in mind that we are quite easily replaceable. Because we are replaceable, our conveyed attitude can easily backfire. The last thing people should be doing right now is raging even harder and providing feedback that is even greater in uselessness than previously submitted. They will not listen to you, us or anyone else until you have made it clear that you accept the direction the game is going and are doing nothing more than trying to get the game further in that direction. This goes without saying some changes make absolutely no sense whatsoever towards direction, or application (javelin change, siphoning strikes doing just about nothing???????????) and feeback is important there.

ultimately, player perception is important to them. However, it's easier, more economical, and better for their established game direction to ignore the bad perception(ers?) to the point they just leave the game than it is to deal with them. I made the exact same post you did when Planes of Power released for EQ almost 15 years ago, then subsequently quit the game along with a ton of us in Vagrants. Then Vagrants merged with Royal Norathian Guard and they just kept on keeping on doing stuff that made the other raids look like cakewalks which made me jealous. In retrospect, I wish I didn't quit. You can either learn it yourself or have other people learn it for you - it does suck & sting though.

A lot of people with bail once Morrowind hits. Well known raid guilds will become a shadow of what they once were, some dissolve entirely. But I guarantee you that by late July once the dust has settled some new batch of people will be working on HM VMOL.

@usmcjdking

If what you're saying is all true. How come they invited those players over to zenimax hq for an intense review and feedback week?

That doesn't seem to fit your point of view about "not caring", "just a number" or "making room for new players"

Aimora

Thank you for posting - I preordered Morrowind collectors Edition, but I am not actually sure I want it anymore - it's a shame really as this was such an amazing game

Nifty2g

lunalitetempler wrote: »

Translation: I played since beta, I made a YouTube video I know what I'm talking about. I don't like the changes, revert them.

I didn't make a youtube video though, I only have gameplay footage. This also isn't just about the changes made to sustain.

HatchetHaro

lunalitetempler wrote: »

Translation: I played since beta, I made a YouTube video I know what I'm talking about. I don't like the changes, revert them.

Nifty2g is an end-game raider and is present in all the leaderboards. He most definitely knows what he's talking about.

Izaki

Agreed

Galwylin

Vaoh wrote: »

Is this true? I don't have the knowledge you say you do on these things. ESO is my first MMO!

How popular is ESO compared to all of those games these days?

No, its not true. I've played every one of those games he listed and a few all the way to endgame. I saw a lot of changes. At no time did any game decide it was better to behead the elite player in order to appeal to the lower tier. On some level, we all wanted to be that elite player. Perhaps it was only in crafting. But no one wants to knowingly walk to block. WoW has always been a game that delivered to all tiers of play. I think they focus way too much on PvP but even today we see its the top tier they want to push people to. That's why you can skip levels in that game today.

Same with EverQuest1/2. In both, they would rather focus on endgame so the fastest way to get everyone there means a healthier playerbase. There you can not only skip levels but they have double and triple xp many times to get you there as fast as possible. In the past, that was a game that really went at times too far in appealing to their endgamer. If you're just starting out and don't take advantage of what they have to move you along faster, you still have years of content to play with (perhaps alone).

I don't know who ESO is trying to appeal to because their patch isn't appealing to anyone. At best we know this truth. Whatever the goal is, its going to be the least costly and require the least work on their part. You would think its a game that has started its wind down. If it goes the route of all games have, its going to *** its players off causing a huge amount of loss then do everything to get them back and never succeed. Its apparently a MMORPG design mainstay.

usmcjdking

Prive wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

This is a sentiment that im worries not enough people are feeling out of pure ignorance.

This is not true. I'd venture to state it's actually the exact opposite.

ESO, like every other MMO, will constantly try to flush it's elites out. That is the primary purpose of instituting changes to this degree. This isn't done out of spite or malice, it's done because it needs to happen. Your seat at the table is a finite space - the information and feedback your provide is linear. A company and developers cannot have customers have a monopoly at the speaking table. The longer you hang onto it, the worse it wracks your mind until you eventually quit; check on the forums 6 months later and notice all new elite names and faces and the game still chugging on making a killing.

This happened with EQ.
This happened MULTIPLE times with WOW.
This happened with City of Heroes (although nowhere near as pronounced, best MMO to date).
This happened with LOTRO.
This happened with Neverwinter.
And now it's happening with ESO.

All you need to do is look at gaming communities that have been together 20+ years. Most of the elites would call them bad or whatever, but people are quick to forget often times these communities were in your exact same position 5-10-15 years ago. Do you see their outrage? No lol, because they know the business.

ESO and community lose nothing by losing the top players - it simply replaces them. It's a rough pill to swallow due to pride but that's how it works.

Until now ESO was unlike the rest, maybe they might go back to it. It's doubtful. Just sad to see a company take that road.

It's not sad. They have to go that route. I'm sorry but you cannot dictate endgame for as long as you please, or based on your merits as a player. That is a tremendous amount of power in a player that has absolutely NO VESTED INTEREST in anything other than their own communities.

I'm not trying to knock on you here for this post - it's sincere and there are some qualitative points to it.

But this is probably the 5th or 6th time I've seen this post. Not on this forum for clarification.

What do you mean, they don't have to go this route at all. Going this route means they're not aiming for long active players but DLC short term instead.

I have a feeling you are not objectively looking at the direction ESO is going and it's making you think they are trying to aim at a different demographic, when they are trying to usher in a new guard for more intelligible feedback to get them to their desired endstate. The blinders are not on, they are very aware they are going to temporarily crush their endgame community in participation, content creation, and population. Whilst that most certainly isn't the goal, it's a natural by-product of revitalizing an otherwise stagnant combat system that (and I'm not blaming anyone in general) has grown in power way beyond what the core game even supports due to feedback and end game appeasing. This is not new, it's not the first time it's ever happened and it won't be the last time.

Our individual value to the developers as players is not very high, orders of magnitudes lower than you probably think. The level at which a player understands a game and completes content at does not correlate to greater value, either. The guide makers and content creators are unimportant as there are hundreds more willing to take the place of the top dog regardless of what the developers do to the game. This is why a lot of feedback I see on PTS/Beta forums is ultimately pointless. The direction the game is going is straight back to it's roots in a very harsh manner and a lot of feedback is basically nothing more than "we don't like the core gameplay". If feedback isn't within the constraints of aiming to get the game back to it's core, then the feedback is pointless to the developers.

As players, we do have strength collectively - but you have to keep in mind that we are quite easily replaceable. Because we are replaceable, our conveyed attitude can easily backfire. The last thing people should be doing right now is raging even harder and providing feedback that is even greater in uselessness than previously submitted. They will not listen to you, us or anyone else until you have made it clear that you accept the direction the game is going and are doing nothing more than trying to get the game further in that direction. This goes without saying some changes make absolutely no sense whatsoever towards direction, or application (javelin change, siphoning strikes doing just about nothing???????????) and feeback is important there.

ultimately, player perception is important to them. However, it's easier, more economical, and better for their established game direction to ignore the bad perception(ers?) to the point they just leave the game than it is to deal with them. I made the exact same post you did when Planes of Power released for EQ almost 15 years ago, then subsequently quit the game along with a ton of us in Vagrants. Then Vagrants merged with Royal Norathian Guard and they just kept on keeping on doing stuff that made the other raids look like cakewalks which made me jealous. In retrospect, I wish I didn't quit. You can either learn it yourself or have other people learn it for you - it does suck & sting though.

A lot of people with bail once Morrowind hits. Well known raid guilds will become a shadow of what they once were, some dissolve entirely. But I guarantee you that by late July once the dust has settled some new batch of people will be working on HM VMOL.

@usmcjdking

If what you're saying is all true. How come they invited those players over to zenimax hq for an intense review and feedback week?

That doesn't seem to fit your point of view about "not caring", "just a number" or "making room for new players"

Information is valuable. The informee is not.

Ashtaris

usmcjdking wrote: »

Prive wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

This is a sentiment that im worries not enough people are feeling out of pure ignorance.

This is not true. I'd venture to state it's actually the exact opposite.

ESO, like every other MMO, will constantly try to flush it's elites out. That is the primary purpose of instituting changes to this degree. This isn't done out of spite or malice, it's done because it needs to happen. Your seat at the table is a finite space - the information and feedback your provide is linear. A company and developers cannot have customers have a monopoly at the speaking table. The longer you hang onto it, the worse it wracks your mind until you eventually quit; check on the forums 6 months later and notice all new elite names and faces and the game still chugging on making a killing.

This happened with EQ.
This happened MULTIPLE times with WOW.
This happened with City of Heroes (although nowhere near as pronounced, best MMO to date).
This happened with LOTRO.
This happened with Neverwinter.
And now it's happening with ESO.

All you need to do is look at gaming communities that have been together 20+ years. Most of the elites would call them bad or whatever, but people are quick to forget often times these communities were in your exact same position 5-10-15 years ago. Do you see their outrage? No lol, because they know the business.

ESO and community lose nothing by losing the top players - it simply replaces them. It's a rough pill to swallow due to pride but that's how it works.

Until now ESO was unlike the rest, maybe they might go back to it. It's doubtful. Just sad to see a company take that road.

It's not sad. They have to go that route. I'm sorry but you cannot dictate endgame for as long as you please, or based on your merits as a player. That is a tremendous amount of power in a player that has absolutely NO VESTED INTEREST in anything other than their own communities.

I'm not trying to knock on you here for this post - it's sincere and there are some qualitative points to it.

But this is probably the 5th or 6th time I've seen this post. Not on this forum for clarification.

What do you mean, they don't have to go this route at all. Going this route means they're not aiming for long active players but DLC short term instead.

I have a feeling you are not objectively looking at the direction ESO is going and it's making you think they are trying to aim at a different demographic, when they are trying to usher in a new guard for more intelligible feedback to get them to their desired endstate. The blinders are not on, they are very aware they are going to temporarily crush their endgame community in participation, content creation, and population. Whilst that most certainly isn't the goal, it's a natural by-product of revitalizing an otherwise stagnant combat system that (and I'm not blaming anyone in general) has grown in power way beyond what the core game even supports due to feedback and end game appeasing. This is not new, it's not the first time it's ever happened and it won't be the last time.

Our individual value to the developers as players is not very high, orders of magnitudes lower than you probably think. The level at which a player understands a game and completes content at does not correlate to greater value, either. The guide makers and content creators are unimportant as there are hundreds more willing to take the place of the top dog regardless of what the developers do to the game. This is why a lot of feedback I see on PTS/Beta forums is ultimately pointless. The direction the game is going is straight back to it's roots in a very harsh manner and a lot of feedback is basically nothing more than "we don't like the core gameplay". If feedback isn't within the constraints of aiming to get the game back to it's core, then the feedback is pointless to the developers.

As players, we do have strength collectively - but you have to keep in mind that we are quite easily replaceable. Because we are replaceable, our conveyed attitude can easily backfire. The last thing people should be doing right now is raging even harder and providing feedback that is even greater in uselessness than previously submitted. They will not listen to you, us or anyone else until you have made it clear that you accept the direction the game is going and are doing nothing more than trying to get the game further in that direction. This goes without saying some changes make absolutely no sense whatsoever towards direction, or application (javelin change, siphoning strikes doing just about nothing???????????) and feeback is important there.

ultimately, player perception is important to them. However, it's easier, more economical, and better for their established game direction to ignore the bad perception(ers?) to the point they just leave the game than it is to deal with them. I made the exact same post you did when Planes of Power released for EQ almost 15 years ago, then subsequently quit the game along with a ton of us in Vagrants. Then Vagrants merged with Royal Norathian Guard and they just kept on keeping on doing stuff that made the other raids look like cakewalks which made me jealous. In retrospect, I wish I didn't quit. You can either learn it yourself or have other people learn it for you - it does suck & sting though.

A lot of people with bail once Morrowind hits. Well known raid guilds will become a shadow of what they once were, some dissolve entirely. But I guarantee you that by late July once the dust has settled some new batch of people will be working on HM VMOL.

@usmcjdking

If what you're saying is all true. How come they invited those players over to zenimax hq for an intense review and feedback week?

That doesn't seem to fit your point of view about "not caring", "just a number" or "making room for new players"

Information is valuable. The informee is not.

But without the informee's (Deltia, Gilliam, Alcast, etc.) who will be the ones delivering the information, ZOS? <cough>