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Undaunted Academy
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Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So honestly I think this a brilliant idea... now let me add my thoughts.
It's not ridiculous to add a school, even pokemon (easiest game in the world) has one. You don't have to necessary in force but if you made a quest there then it would be fantastic. Why don't we have one yet? The issues is "play as you want" how do we keep this freedom?
#library
In this regard, I think Zos @ZOS_GinaBruno allows for player made submissions and into a library of content for how to do x. Then again ... maybe there's $.$ to be made writing a book about this... best seller here I come. But no really, it would be useful for all players to come and read other players submissions on content. Sure they would need guidelines, but easily doable. Also can take inspiration from second life's in game books to reproduce player books. Back tracking a bit, maybe make the books sell able via gold (10% to academy(gold sink)) this would allow social guides to stay alive without raffles and such.
#request board
This could be inside the academy, but maybe allow a request board for tasks. Like skyreach leveling, find 4 nirnroot, craft me a bed, craft amour, help with world boss x, help with dugeon boss, help doing banished cells 1, help learning how to be good dps
#Trial Lobby
So we know random people are unlikely to work atm for trials, sometimes not even for pledges, so why not have a waiting room (maybe designed as the dinning area or tavern nearby) where people talk to npc about find a parnter for a trail or pledge.. and he says I can recommend a few people to you then shows a list of people waiting (online still) for trials. I would show prestige, and role, but not class as it could turn toxic for the community direction.
@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel
NPC Professors
Now how to do this so it's still allows creativity and ingenuity. I think the teachers should speak like a politician, many people do it this way, but they are many ways to do it.. Mentioon the dangers of dugeons, how it's good to have food (npc gives free good sample) which can be bought guild traders or npcs, maybe some face speech mentioning soul gems give you a second chance or something to do it again, but use wisely or you will be trap forever in the dungeon
On wards for the holy trinity, I think it could be done with the npc teachers saying adventures usually go into dungeons at a group of four people , but some legendary figures have been more undaunted. Say undaunted usually go into dugeons with each person doing there part. It' useful a strong player to keep off aggro from bosse mentions taunting as the easiest way, but also other ways to do it (first to attack, crowd control, etc)
Test dummy
So some already exist in the game, but so do crafting stations. Just charge people to use the undaunted one , and use a queue system. This could be also useful if you have like 8 or something to test aoe damage too. Also have the instructors mention different type of mobs and characteristics. (maybe have a show case once a week)
X mob uses negate while having weakness to fires and etc. Have maybe a special are where people talk for it about hour on live while leave npc there after to talk about the mob.
Duel area
So many people complain about duels, but what if there was an area where you could practice and watch people duel. You can even have people pay. I also think this would be useful for the battleground and what not. Also npcs can sell consumbles like the fireworks and ice shards, maybe even temporary face faint
Amour
Like the test dummy why not explain some details about a piece of gear while saying there's probably even more uses out there. Have an area for discussion maybe on the forums or specialized zone. This would get people interested in trying x content. #hiresomegames or interns or volunteers.
Guild Zone area
Afterwards send them to area where they can visit guilds and etc to find more adventures and friends. Maybe you can do this by having an area where guilds pay like 10 million gold (I joking please no...) and have a yearly or monthy guy who stands there tills passerby about the guild, shows pictures maybe, sell limited amount of items , also offers you to join them maybe even gives a gift.
@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert ... think about it please. Sincerly you fan and wish to volunteer or be employed for this project
Great insights, @Tasear! Great contribution!
I would disagree with the queue system for the trial dummy because adding another queue system wouldn't benefit the flow of the game. I am sure these can easily be instanced only per Undaunted Academy quest, with several lined up, like you have for the Cyrodiil siege target practice. If people or groups want to have a go at a trial dummy, they can always craft one
I am unsure if I got the Armour section. Wouldn't the NPC professors also address, in stages, the gear?
That makes sense for the dummy! But eso is special you can do multiple things with a single piece of gear, but the real issues is some people need inspiration on how to use certain piece of gears. I suppose it would be good to replace with npc, but I think player input would be good too. siege dummy castle is a brillant idea too.1 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think they could teach some basics, like understanding how a taunt works etc.
However I don't know if they're going to be able to teach enough of the games meta as it always evolves.
Other than very broad basic knowledge of "Tanking means to taunt a boss then stay alive, blocking big attacks and dodging others" they can't touch on builds or skills due to them changing.
player made library then!0 -
Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think they could teach some basics, like understanding how a taunt works etc.
However I don't know if they're going to be able to teach enough of the games meta as it always evolves.
Other than very broad basic knowledge of "Tanking means to taunt a boss then stay alive, blocking big attacks and dodging others" they can't touch on builds or skills due to them changing.
player made library then!
AKA a wiki "If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
This, its the basic we talk about, learning an tank to taunt and block, learn DD about DoT and spamable, healers a bit about resources and HoT. As I said I would even give you the other roles to just to see how it work.Sounds almost exactly like the Hall of the Novice in FFXIV.
In this regard it's a good starting off point in a game where running dungeons is mandatory and mechanics factor in heavily later on.
While it helps with the bare basics, it's a far cry from running the actual dungeons. And that is where the real challenge lies. Not every vet will be willing to give a newbie a chance and show them the particular nuances of a dungeon. Even today in FFXIV, most will just say "go watch a YT vid lol" and kick.
But.. I bet they teach... tanks... to get a taunt.
Also add some intelligence in the dungeon finder, that it after they have fixed it so it works who is a bit more important.
Keep the lock out for solo queuing but add the dlc dungeons here and expand this to veteran ones.
if you queue for random have it try to put you in fitting dungeons tooGrinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.2 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think they could teach some basics, like understanding how a taunt works etc.
However I don't know if they're going to be able to teach enough of the games meta as it always evolves.
Other than very broad basic knowledge of "Tanking means to taunt a boss then stay alive, blocking big attacks and dodging others" they can't touch on builds or skills due to them changing.
player made library then!
AKA a wiki
Immersion breaking 1 -
Zardayne✭✭✭✭✭I think some of this is a good idea.I believe better tutorial for the basics of group play like taunts, evading aoe attacks etc would be great. Some of #2 though I see as a tutorial on how to make cookie cutter builds for max leet dps. I don't like that..Edited by Zardayne on May 4, 2017 8:31PM2 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
No not cookie cutter, just some advice, game see if you are an stamina or magic build and that weapons you use, then recommend some basic AoE and DoT, main purpose is that then someone talk about rotation you don't start chasing your tail.I think some of this is a good idea.I believe better tutorial for the basics of group play like taunts, evading aoe attacks etc would be great. Some of #2 though I see as a tutorial on how to make cookie cutter builds for max leet dps. I don't like that..
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.2 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, you have the ones who are afraid and you have the one who think light attacks works well in veteran dungeons.We definitely need something to fix the learning curve though... it's gotten out of hand since one tamerial. So many people are afraid of group finder or doing dugeons, so I see something needs to be done for the longevity of the game.
@Wrobel
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.3 -
Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
No not cookie cutter, just some advice, game see if you are an stamina or magic build and that weapons you use, then recommend some basic AoE and DoT, main purpose is that then someone talk about rotation you don't start chasing your tail.I think some of this is a good idea.I believe better tutorial for the basics of group play like taunts, evading aoe attacks etc would be great. Some of #2 though I see as a tutorial on how to make cookie cutter builds for max leet dps. I don't like that..
Are you talking about stuff like "This is an AOE. This is single target. This is a heal."?
This is where the line between hand-holding and actual teaching begins to blur.
Edit: To be fair, I'd have no issue if they add such a system. But there's always a point where teaching ends and practical application begins.Edited by Cadbury on May 4, 2017 8:54PM"If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."1 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sounds almost exactly like the Hall of the Novice in FFXIV.
In this regard it's a good starting off point in a game where running dungeons is mandatory and mechanics factor in heavily later on.
While it helps with the bare basics, it's a far cry from running the actual dungeons. And that is where the real challenge lies. Not every vet will be willing to give a newbie a chance and show them the particular nuances of a dungeon. Even today in FFXIV, most will just say "go watch a YT vid lol" and kick.
But.. I bet they teach... tanks... to get a taunt.
They teach you how to use that Tanks Aggro generating move and how to maintain aggro but it's far from perfect.
The Hall of Novice goes only up to level 15 as an entry level course and considering that level 15 is a far cry from the current level cap of 60, you miss out on several key abilities in regards to tanking. It teaches you NOTHING unlocking the job crystals for your class which unlock Tank Stances, something that is mandatory for tanking endgame, nothing about tank swapping mechanics, how to mitigate damage via cooldowns or even about skills past level 15.
It gives you a barebone baseline that ultimately has lead to just as many painful PUG experiences in that game as ESO.Argonian forever0 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »Sounds almost exactly like the Hall of the Novice in FFXIV.
In this regard it's a good starting off point in a game where running dungeons is mandatory and mechanics factor in heavily later on.
While it helps with the bare basics, it's a far cry from running the actual dungeons. And that is where the real challenge lies. Not every vet will be willing to give a newbie a chance and show them the particular nuances of a dungeon. Even today in FFXIV, most will just say "go watch a YT vid lol" and kick.
But.. I bet they teach... tanks... to get a taunt.
They teach you how to use that Tanks Aggro generating move and how to maintain aggro but it's far from perfect.
The Hall of Novice goes only up to level 15 as an entry level course and considering that level 15 is a far cry from the current level cap of 60, you miss out on several key abilities in regards to tanking. It teaches you NOTHING unlocking the job crystals for your class which unlock Tank Stances, something that is mandatory for tanking endgame, nothing about tank swapping mechanics, how to mitigate damage via cooldowns or even about skills past level 15.
It gives you a barebone baseline that ultimately has lead to just as many painful PUG experiences in that game as ESO.
But eso teaches us how to heavy attack and that about it...1 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
No not cookie cutter, just some advice, game see if you are an stamina or magic build and that weapons you use, then recommend some basic AoE and DoT, main purpose is that then someone talk about rotation you don't start chasing your tail.I think some of this is a good idea.I believe better tutorial for the basics of group play like taunts, evading aoe attacks etc would be great. Some of #2 though I see as a tutorial on how to make cookie cutter builds for max leet dps. I don't like that..
Are you talking about stuff like "This is an AOE. This is single target. This is a heal."?
This is where the line between hand-holding and actual teaching begins to blur.
Edit: To be fair, I'd have no issue if they add such a system. But there's always a point where teaching ends and practical application begins.
No not cookie cutter, just some advice, game see if you are an stamina or magic build and that weapons you use, then recommend some basic AoE and DoT, main purpose is that then someone talk about rotation you don't start chasing your tail.I think some of this is a good idea.I believe better tutorial for the basics of group play like taunts, evading aoe attacks etc would be great. Some of #2 though I see as a tutorial on how to make cookie cutter builds for max leet dps. I don't like that..
Are you talking about stuff like "This is an AOE. This is single target. This is a heal."?
This is where the line between hand-holding and actual teaching begins to blur.
Edit: To be fair, I'd have no issue if they add such a system. But there's always a point where teaching ends and practical application begins.
True, but that's why there's a discussion for it
You can even have an education system if you really want for those really into it. For reals those, our gaming literacy rate in eso is third world country like.
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MattT1988✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Another necro'd thread? Bloody hell ok whatever.
I'd rather they slightly buff normal dungeons so they could go some way to preparing newer players for the vet versions.0 -
Burgererer✭✭✭I think simply making it so vet dungeons are only +160cp is fair. Can't tell you how many times a group has to drag a fetcher who doesn't understand their limits, or takes good drops from others because of their cp. And since there's no such thing as veteran ranks anymore, "veteran" could be classified as technically so (+160cp).Edited by Burgererer on May 5, 2017 3:48AM0 -
MattT1988✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
If they aren't good enough, they aren't good enough, at the end of the day, they just have to learn and improve. In they're current state the normal dungeons do nothing to prepare newer players for the vet versions of those dungeons, which in my opinion, should be they're primary function.0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭Burgererer wrote: »I think simply making it so vet dungeons are only +160cp is fair. Can't tell you how many times a group has to drag a fetcher who doesn't understand their limits, or takes good drops from others because of their cp. And since there's no such thing as veteran ranks anymore, "veteran" could be classified as technically so (+160cp).
Call them S'wit N'wah then kick them out of the group.Aldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭
If they aren't good enough, they aren't good enough, at the end of the day, they just have to learn and improve. In they're current state the normal dungeons do nothing to prepare newer players for the vet versions of those dungeons, which in my opinion, should be they're primary function.
But it won't teach tanks to slot taunt.Edited by hmsdragonfly on May 5, 2017 5:19AMAldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!1 -
MattT1988✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »
If they aren't good enough, they aren't good enough, at the end of the day, they just have to learn and improve. In they're current state the normal dungeons do nothing to prepare newer players for the vet versions of those dungeons, which in my opinion, should be they're primary function.
I don't recall normal dungeons telling tanks to slot taunt.
I'm talking more about mechanics and other strategies. A Tank slotting a taunt is so basic that it's common sense. This is my first proper MMO and even I could figure out a tank needs to use taunt abilities to draw enemies attention to you, as is your job. It really isn't that difficult to figure out.
0 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Burgererer wrote: »I think simply making it so vet dungeons are only +160cp is fair. Can't tell you how many times a group has to drag a fetcher who doesn't understand their limits, or takes good drops from others because of their cp. And since there's no such thing as veteran ranks anymore, "veteran" could be classified as technically so (+160cp).
And how exactly are players magically supposed to gain the class, role and dungeon knowledge as they hit 160 cp?
There's nothing making clueless 160 cp any better than a clueless 100 cp. Hell I've seen heaps of absolutely clueless 300-600 cp and these are actually worst because at that point they're beyond hope generally, being that "far" in the game they assume they know how to play and you're a jerk for trying to tell them to stop spamming Javelin for aoe dps.
Well nothing except for the farming gear part, that one is fair. But it's group finder, not group farmer, if you want explicitly 160+ cp farm group, find one in zone or guild.3 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »Sounds almost exactly like the Hall of the Novice in FFXIV.
In this regard it's a good starting off point in a game where running dungeons is mandatory and mechanics factor in heavily later on.
While it helps with the bare basics, it's a far cry from running the actual dungeons. And that is where the real challenge lies. Not every vet will be willing to give a newbie a chance and show them the particular nuances of a dungeon. Even today in FFXIV, most will just say "go watch a YT vid lol" and kick.
But.. I bet they teach... tanks... to get a taunt.
They teach you how to use that Tank's Aggro generating move and how to maintain aggro but it's far from perfect.
The Hall of Novice goes only up to level 15 as an entry level course and considering that level 15 is a far cry from the current level cap of 60, you miss out on several key abilities in regards to tanking. It teaches you NOTHING unlocking the job crystals for your class which unlock Tank Stances, something that is mandatory for tanking endgame, nothing about tank swapping mechanics, how to mitigate damage via cooldowns or even about skills past level 15.
It gives you a barebone baseline that ultimately has lead to just as many painful PUG experiences in that game as ESO.
But eso teaches us how to heavy attack and that about it...
The difference being that FFXIV actually has set roles with abilities unlocking as you level up. The game can be programed with this in mind because in FFXIV, it won't tell a Paladin to use Overpower in training as that's not a Paladin skill but a Warrior Skill. The game knows exactly what skills a Paladin has, what skills a Warrior has and so on.
Say this Academy thing was implemented. What's to stop tanks from using Inner Fire instead of Puncture? What if they decide to use a 2h to tank and have passed the academy using Inner Fire as their aggro skill? How could the game that advertises "Play how you want" as it's main thing possibly tell the player that they can't actually do that and to use 1h+Shield instead of 2h for tanking? It simply can't without infringing on that philosophy.Argonian forever0 -
Zyrudin✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »The difference being that FFXIV actually has set roles with abilities unlocking as you level up. The game can be programed with this in mind because in FFXIV, it won't tell a Paladin to use Overpower in training as that's not a Paladin skill but a Warrior Skill. The game knows exactly what skills a Paladin has, what skills a Warrior has and so on.
Say this Academy thing was implemented. What's to stop tanks from using Inner Fire instead of Puncture? What if they decide to use a 2h to tank and have passed the academy using Inner Fire as their aggro skill? How could the game that advertises "Play how you want" as it's main thing possibly tell the player that they can't actually do that and to use 1h+Shield instead of 2h for tanking? It simply can't without infringing on that philosophy.
I see no issues with that. A 2h tank slotting inner fire is better than a 1h+S slotting no taunt at all.
We are talking sheer basics here, really. @Tasear has gone ahead and proposed extra ideas, but the core of this discussion are the basics that it is clearly not found in a lot of even high CP players.
Although I agree that grouping only with guildmates is a solution, it is also unhealthy for the game's population, because the rift between those who have at least a clue about what they are doing in a dungeon and those who are clueless, will only increase.1 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »
If they aren't good enough, they aren't good enough, at the end of the day, they just have to learn and improve. In they're current state the normal dungeons do nothing to prepare newer players for the vet versions of those dungeons, which in my opinion, should be they're primary function.
I don't recall normal dungeons telling tanks to slot taunt.
I'm talking more about mechanics and other strategies. A Tank slotting a taunt is so basic that it's common sense. This is my first proper MMO and even I could figure out a tank needs to use taunt abilities to draw enemies attention to you, as is your job. It really isn't that difficult to figure out.
What's the rarest role in the game? We can agree there's a lack of tanks in the game. It's just not innututivie enough.0 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »Sounds almost exactly like the Hall of the Novice in FFXIV.
In this regard it's a good starting off point in a game where running dungeons is mandatory and mechanics factor in heavily later on.
While it helps with the bare basics, it's a far cry from running the actual dungeons. And that is where the real challenge lies. Not every vet will be willing to give a newbie a chance and show them the particular nuances of a dungeon. Even today in FFXIV, most will just say "go watch a YT vid lol" and kick.
But.. I bet they teach... tanks... to get a taunt.
They teach you how to use that Tanks Aggro generating move and how to maintain aggro but it's far from perfect.
The Hall of Novice goes only up to level 15 as an entry level course and considering that level 15 is a far cry from the current level cap of 60, you miss out on several key abilities in regards to tanking. It teaches you NOTHING unlocking the job crystals for your class which unlock Tank Stances, something that is mandatory for tanking endgame, nothing about tank swapping mechanics, how to mitigate damage via cooldowns or even about skills past level 15.
It gives you a barebone baseline that ultimately has lead to just as many painful PUG experiences in that game as ESO.
Then we will learn from there mistakes and do better. 0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »
If they aren't good enough, they aren't good enough, at the end of the day, they just have to learn and improve. In they're current state the normal dungeons do nothing to prepare newer players for the vet versions of those dungeons, which in my opinion, should be they're primary function.
I don't recall normal dungeons telling tanks to slot taunt.
I'm talking more about mechanics and other strategies. A Tank slotting a taunt is so basic that it's common sense. This is my first proper MMO and even I could figure out a tank needs to use taunt abilities to draw enemies attention to you, as is your job. It really isn't that difficult to figure out.
You will be surprised at how many people who don't know that xDAldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!1 -
Kodrac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »
If they aren't good enough, they aren't good enough, at the end of the day, they just have to learn and improve. In they're current state the normal dungeons do nothing to prepare newer players for the vet versions of those dungeons, which in my opinion, should be they're primary function.
I don't recall normal dungeons telling tanks to slot taunt.
I'm talking more about mechanics and other strategies. A Tank slotting a taunt is so basic that it's common sense. This is my first proper MMO and even I could figure out a tank needs to use taunt abilities to draw enemies attention to you, as is your job. It really isn't that difficult to figure out.
It's so basic and common sense that there's daily threads made about tanks in group finder that don't even have a taunt slotted. It's good that you figured it out, but apparently it's too difficult for the masses. So instead of making the game more intuitive or having a learning curve (punish you for not learning your skills/role) they instead make a broad nerf to the game's difficulty, you know, to appeal to the masses/lowest common denominator. There is no learning curve and the result is poor play across the board.
Edited by Kodrac on May 5, 2017 2:56PM2 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »The difference being that FFXIV actually has set roles with abilities unlocking as you level up. The game can be programed with this in mind because in FFXIV, it won't tell a Paladin to use Overpower in training as that's not a Paladin skill but a Warrior Skill. The game knows exactly what skills a Paladin has, what skills a Warrior has and so on.
Say this Academy thing was implemented. What's to stop tanks from using Inner Fire instead of Puncture? What if they decide to use a 2h to tank and have passed the academy using Inner Fire as their aggro skill? How could the game that advertises "Play how you want" as it's main thing possibly tell the player that they can't actually do that and to use 1h+Shield instead of 2h for tanking? It simply can't without infringing on that philosophy.
I see no issues with that. A 2h tank slotting inner fire is better than a 1h+S slotting no taunt at all.
We are talking sheer basics here, really. @Tasear has gone ahead and proposed extra ideas, but the core of this discussion are the basics that it is clearly not found in a lot of even high CP players.
Although I agree that grouping only with guildmates is a solution, it is also unhealthy for the game's population, because the rift between those who have at least a clue about what they are doing in a dungeon and those who are clueless, will only increase.
But most people won't give a 2h tank the time of day before kicking them from the group. People won't even give a Frost Staff tank a shot either, despite the Frost Staff being a tank weapon.
It would be more on the community to help teach other players their role than a barebones explanation that give such broad and vague tips for their role because it's the community that ultimately decides who they want to play with.Argonian forever0 -
Zyrudin✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »But most people won't give a 2h tank the time of day before kicking them from the group. People won't even give a Frost Staff tank a shot either, despite the Frost Staff being a tank weapon.
It would be more on the community to help teach other players their role than a barebones explanation that give such broad and vague tips for their role because it's the community that ultimately decides who they want to play with.
If that was the case I am sure we wouldn't be having this discussion, because all PUG groups would see players fitted for their roles somehow. Have you ever seen a healer with a bow? I have.
Again, we are talking about in-game education on the basics, so that two results occur:
1) with the basics out of the way, less strain is put on more experienced players to be "forced" to explain them to new players
2) with the game itself presenting tutorials, new players are more receptive to advice from more experienced players
This kind of thing would actually help community assistance to, and communication with, new players.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
If they aren't good enough, they aren't good enough, at the end of the day, they just have to learn and improve. In they're current state the normal dungeons do nothing to prepare newer players for the vet versions of those dungeons, which in my opinion, should be they're primary function.
Who's sets the standard of shoe good enough. Do I or do we make it where your level is acceptable?
Actually it's kinda like this idea.
We can set a minimum standard of a mere 30k dps single target unbuffed for minimum dps to be able to enter a vet dungeon. wil work on the tank and healed requirements.2
