Gilliam the Rogue about Morrowind Patch Notes

Feanor · April 2017

Ajantisz wrote: »

Actually players who speak out are often petulant and reactionary (over-reactionary typically), very often they arent really the people to listen to (I get the irony in this response aswell).

So which players do they listen to? How do you quantify the value of input (i.e finding these "experts"), sorting the wheat from the chaff as the saying goes.

From there, how do you go about satisfying every player? Or do you just impose the will of Gilliam on the playerbase? Or Alcast, or Deltia (who pretty much usuall parrots Gilliams thoughts). Alternatively whichever e-Famous individual can sway the largest horde of forum warrriors. How is that different from the devs?

Gilliam may perform well and have a following, but it doesnt make his ideas good, or even good for the game. I've seen a lot of these sort of players from playing different MMO's, especially years of World of Warcraft, and uniformly they talk about how a change is bad, but it is because they have a vision of their own making in their mind which they think the game should be, it ticks a bunch of boxes of what THEY want. It is not the devs vision though, they are the ones responsible for implementing it, making it a challenge to get right when it is your own vision, let alone some random players. Then when it isnt delivered maybe they take it humbly and wait and see if it is terrible, or they dont wait and make free-throw statements (easy as *** because you dont really have to back them up) about how bad it will be, or they walk away silently, or saying they were driven *cough*Deltia*cough*.

That would mean they have a vision. I don't think that's the case. They just try to stomp out fires whenever they crop up, rather than having a goal they want to achieve. Gap closers don't connect? Oh we can't fix the ability itself, so we put a snare on it so the target can't move anymore and the skill connects realiably. Fixed. Power creep through Champion points? Oh we were told on PTS it would come to this if the system was implemented, but we didn't listen. Hence we had to put a cap on CP and now have to trash several passives because we don't like the end result. The list goes on and on, not speaking of the plethora of bugs which are neither acknowledged nor fixed.

It has nothing to do with vision. It has everything to do with a company which cut down staff, lost the grip on their code base and is just milking the casual cows for the remainder of the game.

Just my 2 cents.

SquareSausage · April 2017

Ppl who be like "if you don't like it, quit". Well you know, its not like a job, where you do what the boss says, a game is supposed to be fun, and if people don't like how it plays, and are ignored on feedback, you know what, they may well leave, and if that happens in numbers, we will have no game, or a poorly populated game at least.
If the hard core players go, end content won't be completed and we'll just have people emoting in deshaan with a broom.

Korah_Eaglecry · April 2017

Ajantisz wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

That stuff after the hour mark: YES! THANK YOU! Someone needed to say that. The developers are NOT the experts in these things. You need to discuss these things with players, not dictate what exactly happens next because you say so, because you're the developers, and you know best. You don't. You get to set the general path of the game, but we can help you work out all the details the right way. Talk to us! Change your mind based on our feedback, not on what you do, but how you go about doing it. And if we tell you something needs fixing, it probably does, so look into it.

Actually players who speak out are often petulant and reactionary (over-reactionary typically), very often they arent really the people to listen to (I get the irony in this response aswell).

So which players do they listen to? How do you quantify the value of input (i.e finding these "experts"), sorting the wheat from the chaff as the saying goes.

From there, how do you go about satisfying every player? Or do you just impose the will of Gilliam on the playerbase? Or Alcast, or Deltia (who pretty much usuall parrots Gilliams thoughts). Alternatively whichever e-Famous individual can sway the largest horde of forum warrriors. How is that different from the devs?

Gilliam may perform well and have a following, but it doesnt make his ideas good, or even good for the game. I've seen a lot of these sort of players from playing different MMO's, especially years of World of Warcraft, and uniformly they talk about how a change is bad, but it is because they have a vision of their own making in their mind which they think the game should be, it ticks a bunch of boxes of what THEY want. It is not the devs vision though, they are the ones responsible for implementing it, making it a challenge to get right when it is your own vision, let alone some random players. Then when it isnt delivered maybe they take it humbly and wait and see if it is terrible, or they dont wait and make free-throw statements (easy as *** because you dont really have to back them up) about how bad it will be, or they walk away silently, or saying they were driven *cough*Deltia*cough*.

1.) Im going to need you to prove that most players are petulant and reactionary....I know you cant so dont worry...Im just just using this to make a point. But just in case it goes over your head which Im sure it will. You cant possibly say with 100 percent certainty (unless youre an absolutely arrogant moron) that most are petulant or reactionary.

I am sick and tired of how every time theres a major shake up in this game and players speak up, there is a subsection of this community that goes out of their way to try and silence them or undermine the message they are trying to get across. If anyone is petulant and reactionary. Its players like yourself. That try to wave off the concerns of other players that have a right to come onto these forums and share their thoughts and concerns.

2.)Well, hmm...Listening to players. I bet it would actually be much easier to get to the root of what players are trying to talk about if players didnt go into threads for the sole purpose of derailing said threads and picking fights with those discussing a topic. It happens in every thread regardless of topic and severity of the issue. Instead of debating the actual issue there is this unnecessary and blatant attack on other players for no other reason than because they are challenging ZOS and its all mighty word.

3.) I have my own issue with Youtubers and their relationships with this game and company but I can say that regardless of that even I can see that when numerous near white knight level youtubers are like "**** this Im out" then yeah. This isnt some everyday update thats spanking a particular playstyle that needs to be put in its place. These changes are rolling us back to a period in ESOs lifecycle that was very rough and nearly saw the end of the game before it got off the ground.

4.) Gilliam literally just did basic math in that video. Basic. In which youre free to actually challenge with your own math. He showed us facts. All youre doing is sharing an opinion. Right now, Gilliam seems to have a much more solid idea of what the problem is than you. I wonder......Is his opinion in this situation more important or is yours?

JinMori · April 2017

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Ajantisz wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

That stuff after the hour mark: YES! THANK YOU! Someone needed to say that. The developers are NOT the experts in these things. You need to discuss these things with players, not dictate what exactly happens next because you say so, because you're the developers, and you know best. You don't. You get to set the general path of the game, but we can help you work out all the details the right way. Talk to us! Change your mind based on our feedback, not on what you do, but how you go about doing it. And if we tell you something needs fixing, it probably does, so look into it.

Actually players who speak out are often petulant and reactionary (over-reactionary typically), very often they arent really the people to listen to (I get the irony in this response aswell).

So which players do they listen to? How do you quantify the value of input (i.e finding these "experts"), sorting the wheat from the chaff as the saying goes.

From there, how do you go about satisfying every player? Or do you just impose the will of Gilliam on the playerbase? Or Alcast, or Deltia (who pretty much usuall parrots Gilliams thoughts). Alternatively whichever e-Famous individual can sway the largest horde of forum warrriors. How is that different from the devs?

Gilliam may perform well and have a following, but it doesnt make his ideas good, or even good for the game. I've seen a lot of these sort of players from playing different MMO's, especially years of World of Warcraft, and uniformly they talk about how a change is bad, but it is because they have a vision of their own making in their mind which they think the game should be, it ticks a bunch of boxes of what THEY want. It is not the devs vision though, they are the ones responsible for implementing it, making it a challenge to get right when it is your own vision, let alone some random players. Then when it isnt delivered maybe they take it humbly and wait and see if it is terrible, or they dont wait and make free-throw statements (easy as *** because you dont really have to back them up) about how bad it will be, or they walk away silently, or saying they were driven *cough*Deltia*cough*.

1.) Im going to need you to prove that most players are petulant and reactionary....I know you cant so dont worry...Im just just using this to make a point. But just in case it goes over your head which Im sure it will. You cant possibly say with 100 percent certainty (unless youre an absolutely arrogant moron) that most are petulant or reactionary.

I am sick and tired of how every time theres a major shake up in this game and players speak up, there is a subsection of this community that goes out of their way to try and silence them or undermine the message they are trying to get across. If anyone is petulant and reactionary. Its players like yourself. That try to wave off the concerns of other players that have a right to come onto these forums and share their thoughts and concerns.

2.)Well, hmm...Listening to players. I bet it would actually be much easier to get to the root of what players are trying to talk about if players didnt go into threads for the sole purpose of derailing said threads and picking fights with those discussing a topic. It happens in every thread regardless of topic and severity of the issue. Instead of debating the actual issue there is this unnecessary and blatant attack on other players for no other reason than because they are challenging ZOS and its all mighty word.

3.) I have my own issue with Youtubers and their relationships with this game and company but I can say that regardless of that even I can see that when numerous near white knight level youtubers are like "**** this Im out" then yeah. This isnt some everyday update thats spanking a particular playstyle that needs to be put in its place. These changes are rolling us back to a period in ESOs lifecycle that was very rough and nearly saw the end of the game before it got off the ground.

4.) Gilliam literally just did basic math in that video. Basic. In which youre free to actually challenge with your own math. He showed us facts. All youre doing is sharing an opinion. Right now, Gilliam seems to have a much more solid idea of what the problem is than you. I wonder......Is his opinion in this situation more important or is yours?

Well said, if anyone is petulant here, it's people who try to shut down constructive discussion for the sake who knows what.

Maybe they like the changes? And don't wanna see people talk because they know that most are against this ***? Who knows?

Or maybe they are just blind, and cannot see how removing everything that is fun and rewarding from the game is a bad idea? (basically meaning that they will suck up everything that the devs throw at them, even if it's bad).

And also, i find some of the warden skills to be disgusting after what this patch was revealed, this is clearly an attempt to force people to buy the expansion, templar doesn't have major mending on the patch notes, guess who has it? Warden, Class sustain has been disintegrated, but guess what, warden has his *** netch that restores resources, *** off ZO$

f047ys3v3n · April 2017

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

Very good analysis of the changes affecting our current playstyles. The problem is that the developers want to change the game system but aren't very open (even dishonest if you ask me) about that.

The current system centers around the skills that you (within reason) can apply without restrictions each 0.9 sec, mixed with light/heahy attacks because skills have no cooldown.

The new system is supposed to have a (simulated) cooldown by a) gimping our resource pools and b) buffing light/heavy attacks via CP changes.

There is a bunch of problems with that (starting with the fact that they aren't very forthcoming with this):

a) the whole skill/passive system is build around synergies with skills
b) the encounters are designed around the old skill system
c) nothing is designed with cooldowns in mind

and most important (for me)

d) if I wanted to play a MMORPG with skill cooldowns then I would have chosen one that did it from the beginning

So I gather, in other MMO's, skills have individual cooldown timers. Of course, you also have a few more than 10 total skills spread across 2 bars wherein some must be repeated in those games. So, skill cooldowns, simulated or not, make little sense in the overall combat system of ESO as they just end up amounting to dead time which ends up being most profitably filled with heavy attacks that, given their one button hold mechanic, might as well be dead time.

As you have said, the skills and passives in ESO are also designed with all this in mind. siphoning attacks, relentless focus, how do they function when all the sudden you have half as many heavy / light attacks? Worthless is how they function especially since siphoning now returns around 25% per proc of what it did before. You know what it gives you in total now? Basically one extra skill cast every 20 seconds and a most likely redundant heal. I'll skip it thanks. The whole combat system was wrapped around that idea of a skill cast and a light or medium attack every 20 seconds in so many ways.

TwinStripeUK · April 2017

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Ajantisz wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

That stuff after the hour mark: YES! THANK YOU! Someone needed to say that. The developers are NOT the experts in these things. You need to discuss these things with players, not dictate what exactly happens next because you say so, because you're the developers, and you know best. You don't. You get to set the general path of the game, but we can help you work out all the details the right way. Talk to us! Change your mind based on our feedback, not on what you do, but how you go about doing it. And if we tell you something needs fixing, it probably does, so look into it.

Actually players who speak out are often petulant and reactionary (over-reactionary typically), very often they arent really the people to listen to (I get the irony in this response aswell).

So which players do they listen to? How do you quantify the value of input (i.e finding these "experts"), sorting the wheat from the chaff as the saying goes.

From there, how do you go about satisfying every player? Or do you just impose the will of Gilliam on the playerbase? Or Alcast, or Deltia (who pretty much usuall parrots Gilliams thoughts). Alternatively whichever e-Famous individual can sway the largest horde of forum warrriors. How is that different from the devs?

Gilliam may perform well and have a following, but it doesnt make his ideas good, or even good for the game. I've seen a lot of these sort of players from playing different MMO's, especially years of World of Warcraft, and uniformly they talk about how a change is bad, but it is because they have a vision of their own making in their mind which they think the game should be, it ticks a bunch of boxes of what THEY want. It is not the devs vision though, they are the ones responsible for implementing it, making it a challenge to get right when it is your own vision, let alone some random players. Then when it isnt delivered maybe they take it humbly and wait and see if it is terrible, or they dont wait and make free-throw statements (easy as *** because you dont really have to back them up) about how bad it will be, or they walk away silently, or saying they were driven *cough*Deltia*cough*.

1.) Im going to need you to prove that most players are petulant and reactionary....I know you cant so dont worry...Im just just using this to make a point. But just in case it goes over your head which Im sure it will. You cant possibly say with 100 percent certainty (unless youre an absolutely arrogant moron) that most are petulant or reactionary.

I am sick and tired of how every time theres a major shake up in this game and players speak up, there is a subsection of this community that goes out of their way to try and silence them or undermine the message they are trying to get across. If anyone is petulant and reactionary. Its players like yourself. That try to wave off the concerns of other players that have a right to come onto these forums and share their thoughts and concerns.

2.)Well, hmm...Listening to players. I bet it would actually be much easier to get to the root of what players are trying to talk about if players didnt go into threads for the sole purpose of derailing said threads and picking fights with those discussing a topic. It happens in every thread regardless of topic and severity of the issue. Instead of debating the actual issue there is this unnecessary and blatant attack on other players for no other reason than because they are challenging ZOS and its all mighty word.

3.) I have my own issue with Youtubers and their relationships with this game and company but I can say that regardless of that even I can see that when numerous near white knight level youtubers are like "**** this Im out" then yeah. This isnt some everyday update thats spanking a particular playstyle that needs to be put in its place. These changes are rolling us back to a period in ESOs lifecycle that was very rough and nearly saw the end of the game before it got off the ground.

4.) Gilliam literally just did basic math in that video. Basic. In which youre free to actually challenge with your own math. He showed us facts. All youre doing is sharing an opinion. Right now, Gilliam seems to have a much more solid idea of what the problem is than you. I wonder......Is his opinion in this situation more important or is yours?

Okay, points in order:
1) 'Im going to need you to prove that most players are petulant and reactionary....'

That comes over as kind of petulant...

'You cant possibly say with 100 percent certainty (unless youre an absolutely arrogant moron) that most are petulant or reactionary. '

... which DEFINITELY comes over as petulant and reactionary!

2) The game has around 8 million players between all platforms. I see maybe 100 or so on here complaining, and it's usually the same names repeating the same rants. But let's go overboard and say it's a couple of thousand. Still not representative of the player base as a whole. And of those complaining, absolutely none of them are willing to shift from the position that they are in the right, and that this is some personal attack against the playerbase by the cruel and evil ZOS. And guess what:

'It happens in every thread regardless of topic and severity of the issue'

3) The YouTubers you describe and the players you mention from the point above are from the same subset; people who spent 20-30 hours a week, playing the one character, running every dungeon, every trial and topping the leaderboards in Cyrodil every single week. People who had all the best gear, regularly run with packs in PvP and who discovered (and exploited) the Heavy Armor meta that led to these changes being implemented in the first place. In short, the people who dominated the game and reveled in the attention from ZOS for the last three years and now no longer feel 'special' and 'entitled'.

This explains how they seem to be spending more time on here whining than they do actually trying to find ways to make the new system work for them.

4) Got a lot of respect for Gilliam, even though the videos were hard going... yes VIDEOS, plural. Seems that everyone has completely sidestepped the second one where it details all the GOOD parts of the patch and how change isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact if you actually DO watch the videos, you'll see that his overall conclusion is that the only 'bad' part of this is that they didn't buff early progression in addition to nerfing the later stuff. Nothing that they can't (and won't) sort out by the time the live patch rolls around.

In any event, most of the reports from the PTS are that people are managing just fine once they get their heads around putting the 'management' into 'resource management' and not just relying on 100 CP in the right Thief node, a monster helm and shoulders and a rotation macro to do the job. Yes, there are actually people crying that the add-on they use to get one-up on other players isn't relevant anymore, and that ZOS is evil and wrong for doing that to 'everyone' (ie. them).

But let's not let any of that get in the way of some whiny attention seeking, eh?

It comes down to two choices:

1) Like it
2) Lump it

Either keep playing, suck it down and find a whole new way to feel important while bullying the little guys, or just quit the game and stop whining that somebody ruined 'your game', because this is getting REALLY tiresome now.

rotaugen454 · April 2017

For all the people saying "it isn't that big a change, doesn't affect my gameplay", do you run trials or vet group dungeons hardmode? I can do the other content fine, even with all the changes, but those two things just got a LOT harder.

the_man_of_steal · April 2017

Thank you Gilliam!!!

CromulentForumID · April 2017

lunalitetempler wrote: »

Coilbox wrote: »

lunalitetempler wrote: »

I've seen it posted about 50 times, still not watching it. Tomorrow I will make a video of my Grandma reaction. May be my cat.

It's not even a 'reaction' video about the changes, but a deep and insightful explanation of what is going on. Wether you like the changes or not, i suggest you to watch it cause in any case you will learn a lot. But thats up to you.

Not really, I've tested my character on the pts. All is fine for me personally. But if y'all want to freak out go right ahead

FYI, never needed a YouTuber to learn the game. I learned to play it properly from day one. Maybe that's why I have no problems with the patch.

That is a fantastic cloaked passive-aggressive L2P. Good work