C'mon ZOS... Stop Pushing Hybrids! (Morrowind Crafted Sets)

GrumpyDuckling · April 2017

ZOS, until you remove the attribute scaling system and the weapon/spell damage divide that is currently in place, hybrid builds that split attribute points and weapon/spell damage are just hurting themselves and their group (only exception for most group content: tank). So please, please, please... stop pushing hybrid builds on us unless you plan to give us a combat system that doesn't penalize us for splitting attributes and weapon/spell damage.

Look at these new crafted sets coming with Morrowind; two of them are promoting damage-based hyrbids. Assassin's Guile and Shacklebreaker give 2 and 3 set bonuses of contradicting crit and damage bonuses.

Assassin's Guile

(2 items) Adds 688 Spell Critical

(3 items) Adds 688 Weapon Critical

(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage and Weapon Damage

(5 items) Increases the duration of your alchemical poisons by 4 seconds.

Shacklebreaker

(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage

(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage

(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery and Stamina Recovery

(5 items) Adds 2000 Max Magicka and Max Stamina.

Daedric Trickery

(2 items) Adds 1064 Max Health

(3 items) Adds 967 MaxStamina

(4 items) Adds 967 Max Magicka

(5 items) While in combat you gain one of 5 random Major Buffs for 10 seconds every 20 seconds. Eligible buffs are Expedition, Protection, Mending, Heroism, or Vitality.

Goshua · April 2017

pushing hybrids or allowing either magicka or stamina to use the sets, i see it as more the latter

S1ipperyJim · April 2017

"remove the attribute scaling system " THIS needs to happen

GrumpyDuckling · April 2017

Goshua wrote: »

pushing hybrids or allowing either magicka or stamina to use the sets, i see it as more the latter

If that is the intent, why would they separate the 2nd and 3rd bonuses on Assassin's Guile and Shacklebreaker? Why not combine them like the 4th bonus?

qsnoopyjr · April 2017

Their mistake,

wording it weapon damage
it should be worded, physical damage

like a ball of fire, physical damage with some magic damage, maybe like a burning effect
as compared to someone breathing fire, which is pure magic damage

Goshua · April 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Goshua wrote: »

pushing hybrids or allowing either magicka or stamina to use the sets, i see it as more the latter

If that is the intent, why would they separate the 2nd and 3rd bonuses on Assassin's Guile and Shacklebreaker? Why not combine them like the 4th bonus?

No idea, it may not be their intent.

<edit ehwrong> It is an option, other constraints aside, so it's not really 'pushing' hybrids IMO

DarkAedin · April 2017

#bringbacksoftcaps

Lavennin · April 2017

New player here, what was the problem with soft caps that they saw the need to remove them? Soft caps are so innocent and harmless.

max_only · April 2017

Ooooooo baby baybay

That Shacklebreaker might dry some of my saptank tears.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · April 2017

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

"remove the attribute scaling system " THIS needs to happen

More than anything else. This would stop TONS of power creep in one step, allow PvP to remove the terrible battle spirit 50% nerf on heals/damage/shields, and put fun and interesting sets like Whitestrakes redemption back into use.

If you just capped the effect attributes have on Shields/damage/heals at around 25k for magicka/stamina and 35k for health, and then you removed battle spirit 50% nerf, hybrids would be viable again.

DocFrost72 · April 2017

61% crit (both)
27k stat pools, with 19k health
2.5k spell, 3k weapon damage.
Sorc passive increase to shock and physical damage by 5%
Two sorces of implosion.

"Useless"? No. It will under-perform for vet trials, but be careful saying stuff like "it won't work."

GrumpyDuckling · April 2017

DocFrost72 wrote: »

61% crit (both)
27k stat pools, with 19k health
2.5k spell, 3k weapon damage.
Sorc passive increase to shock and physical damage by 5%
Two sorcs of implosion.

"Useless"? No. It will under-perform for vet trials, but be careful saying stuff like "it won't work."

I don't think anyone in this thread called hybrids "useless" or said anything along the lines of "it won't work." In my original post I did say that people who "split attribute points and weapon/spell damage are just hurting themselves and their group (only exception for most group content: tank)."

starkerealm · April 2017

Lavennin wrote: »

New player here, what was the problem with soft caps that they saw the need to remove them? Soft caps are so innocent and harmless.

Softcaps date back to before the champion point system. The problem was, back then, your stats were basically 10% of what they are now (in just a, here's a number kind of way, the values were roughly analogous). Back then, it was pretty easy to hit softcaps, so you'd overcharge an attribute and get severe diminishing returns.

The issue that ZOS was trying to address was, with champion points, that players wouldn't actually see their numbers go up when they put points into stars, so the stats were inflated, and the soft caps were removed.

Lavennin · April 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

New player here, what was the problem with soft caps that they saw the need to remove them? Soft caps are so innocent and harmless.

Softcaps date back to before the champion point system. The problem was, back then, your stats were basically 10% of what they are now (in just a, here's a number kind of way, the values were roughly analogous). Back then, it was pretty easy to hit softcaps, so you'd overcharge an attribute and get severe diminishing returns.

The issue that ZOS was trying to address was, with champion points, that players wouldn't actually see their numbers go up when they put points into stars, so the stats were inflated, and the soft caps were removed.

Thank you, that makes sense. Here's hope they'd reintroduce soft caps...I'm a big fan of hybrid builds, and putting all points in one attribute despite the diminishing returns is also quite interesting (did that in some games).

S1ipperyJim · April 2017

DocFrost72 wrote: »

61% crit (both)
27k stat pools, with 19k health
2.5k spell, 3k weapon damage.
Sorc passive increase to shock and physical damage by 5%
Two sorcs of implosion.

Let me guess - necropotence set?

starkerealm · April 2017

Lavennin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

New player here, what was the problem with soft caps that they saw the need to remove them? Soft caps are so innocent and harmless.

Softcaps date back to before the champion point system. The problem was, back then, your stats were basically 10% of what they are now (in just a, here's a number kind of way, the values were roughly analogous). Back then, it was pretty easy to hit softcaps, so you'd overcharge an attribute and get severe diminishing returns.

The issue that ZOS was trying to address was, with champion points, that players wouldn't actually see their numbers go up when they put points into stars, so the stats were inflated, and the soft caps were removed.

Thank you, that makes sense. Here's hope they'd reintroduce soft caps...I'm a big fan of hybrid builds, and putting all points in one attribute despite the diminishing returns is also quite interesting (did that in some games).

To be honest, given the way ESO works (and the way prior TES games were designed), I'm inclined to think, hard caps are a better solution overall.

DocFrost72 · April 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

61% crit (both)
27k stat pools, with 19k health
2.5k spell, 3k weapon damage.
Sorc passive increase to shock and physical damage by 5%
Two sorcs of implosion.

"Useless"? No. It will under-perform for vet trials, but be careful saying stuff like "it won't work."

I don't think anyone in this thread called hybrids "useless" or said anything along the lines of "it won't work." In my original post I did say that people who "split attribute points and weapon/spell damage are just hurting themselves and their group (only exception for most group content: tank)."

Not sure how popping an 18k ward with vma daggers and stam, self sustaining through healing, and setting off valance gimp my group.

DocFrost72 · April 2017

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

61% crit (both)
27k stat pools, with 19k health
2.5k spell, 3k weapon damage.
Sorc passive increase to shock and physical damage by 5%
Two sorcs of implosion.

Let me guess - necropotence set?

5 light shacklebreaker, 5 Spriggans, vma daggers and lightning staff. Crafted weapons would be fine, truthfully.

newtinmpls · April 2017

Goshua wrote: »

pushing hybrids or allowing either magicka or stamina to use the sets, i see it as more the latter

I agree.

Seems like this would be a set you could use as one, then if needed switch to the other and not need to re-craft/obtain a new set. I like it.

zaria · April 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

"remove the attribute scaling system " THIS needs to happen

More than anything else. This would stop TONS of power creep in one step, allow PvP to remove the terrible battle spirit 50% nerf on heals/damage/shields, and put fun and interesting sets like Whitestrakes redemption back into use.

If you just capped the effect attributes have on Shields/damage/heals at around 25k for magicka/stamina and 35k for health, and then you removed battle spirit 50% nerf, hybrids would be viable again.

Yes, as you say it would reduce the creep a lot.
As I say if you use an larger magazine on an gun each bullet don't do more damage, you still want an large magazine in most settings but damage and crit would be more important and you don't get the ^2 effect we have now.

Hybrids would still have an weakness because of small magazine and having to split weapon and spell damage and crit.

Shadow_Viper_vX · April 2017

Sets that offer more options and allow boarder character customization are always a good thing.

It's amazing what some people complain about when there are things like lag/performance problems still plaguing the game...

This is a non-issue

Useless Thread is Useless

ljb2k5_ESO · April 2017

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

Sets that offer more options and allow boarder character customization are always a good thing.

It's amazing what some people complain about when there are things like lag/performance problems still plaguing the game...

This is a non-issue

Useless Thread is Useless

But the OP wasn't complaining that hybrids are a bad idea, he was saying that in the current system that rewards investing singularly into one primary stat so heavily that there is no point in diversifying, offering sets for hybrids is just tempting players to under-perform by trying to be one. It was a criticism of the system that doesn't support making hybrids, not that hybrids are inherently bad or disliked.

Enslaved · April 2017

I don't see why is there any problem. If hybrid builds were more viable, and these sets might help them rise a bit, we would have more diversity, and that equals more fun.

MakoFore · April 2017

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

"remove the attribute scaling system " THIS needs to happen

yup. it had unintended effects that have hampered the game. as a stamina player- there are bugger all class skills i can use- and as a magicka player no weapon skills. its boring, its limiting. its easy to fix with some thought- just not zos thought. get fengrush, kristopher, alcast and others in to do the thinking on this- before wrobel breaks something further.

image being able to drop a destro ulti, crystal frag combo- then crit rush into your own destro rage circle! this is the build freedom we were promised- but they've made it impossible to happen.

Etchos · April 2017

I think this interesting and while hybrids are never going to be meta I'm thinking they could be interesting.

Having not played any morrowind I'm not sure how all the changes will play out but even before I saw these sets I was interested in playing around with a hybrid for a few reasons.

1 Quite a lot of the synergies seem to have been altered to restore either magicka or stamina depending on which is lower. (this suggests ZOS are expecting players to be using both pools in some fashion)

2 The nerf to sustain could mean depending on sets etc that spamming an ability from the primary pool might mean you run dry so perhaps there is a useful ability in the other pool. Now that I see these sets I'm thinking that perhaps that is what ZOS were intending.

I think the changes we are seeing and these sets are phase 1 of "the return of the hybrid". Perhaps not going far enough. But certainly far enough for me to respect my sap tank to be less tanky and more "can I dps a little"

Jsmalls · April 2017

They need to fix the first two bonuses of shacklebreaker, have a separate bonus for weapon and spell damage is useless, and you see monster sets like Kena already stack the two.

So stack those two bonuses and add a health or something useful to both sides.

Ahzek · April 2017

Whats also quite annoying for anyone trying to make a hybrid work, is that all these sets are crafted, which in turn means no jewlery, which means you cant have 2 of these hybrid sets active at once.

Rinmaethodain · April 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard · April 2017

Enslaved wrote: »

I don't see why is there any problem. If hybrid builds were more viable, and these sets might help them rise a bit, we would have more diversity, and that equals more fun.

More diversity really isn't going to happen as long as damage output is primarily based off of a single stat.

All The Best

Turelus · April 2017

I wouldn't say it's pushing, but at least now anyone who wants a hybrid build has some more options.

Focus builds have loads of sets, we can let hyrbrids have a few.

LordGavus · April 2017

Etchos wrote: »

I think this interesting and while hybrids are never going to be meta I'm thinking they could be interesting.

Having not played any morrowind I'm not sure how all the changes will play out but even before I saw these sets I was interested in playing around with a hybrid for a few reasons.

1 Quite a lot of the synergies seem to have been altered to restore either magicka or stamina depending on which is lower. (this suggests ZOS are expecting players to be using both pools in some fashion)

2 The nerf to sustain could mean depending on sets etc that spamming an ability from the primary pool might mean you run dry so perhaps there is a useful ability in the other pool. Now that I see these sets I'm thinking that perhaps that is what ZOS were intending.

I think the changes we are seeing and these sets are phase 1 of "the return of the hybrid". Perhaps not going far enough. But certainly far enough for me to respect my sap tank to be less tanky and more "can I dps a little"

Yep, this is the feeling I get too.