ZOS - do not follow in Bioware's footsteps

Arenguros · April 2017

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

Have you tried lvling mag Sorc on PTS from 0 without any help or dumb powerlvling? It's disaster, you will run out of mana by just killing ONE mob and then you gotta go afk until you get your mp back.

Have you tried on live?
Last time I checked, fresh toons have no CP, no passives, no gear with any sustain and no active sustain abilites.
I wonder how they kill anything?
(Hint: It involves light and heavy attacking, as well as occasional use of the few abilities at their disposal).

ashenb14_ESO · April 2017

here, for those who really just cant get it, watch GillianTheRogue explain then SHOW YOU what this does to stamblade builds...they wont be viable in pve anymore, to get enough regen/reduction to sustain for bosses they will have to stack regen/sustain sets and lose quite alot of damage..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK5D32QGsy0&t=2928s

Sakiri · April 2017

F7sus4 wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Here's the problem: How do you listen to a community where 50% of suggestions are garbage, and the other 50% are polar and extremely divisive?

It's not a problem at all when they recognize most of their top-tier raiding community. And yes - they do.

So the game is supposed to revolve around raiders?

Good one.

QuebraRegra · April 2017

while I understand there's some "dumbing down" going on (frontloading, ONETAMRIEL, leveling, etc.), I actually think the resource changes are a misguided attempt at attempting to balance the impossible to check power creep from CPs.

It's a schitzo balance game... they have to increase CPs so they can show the community that there's "progression", then they have to nerf everything to check the power creep from the CPs... lather, rinse, repeat.

That said the skill lines have been pretty basic static since inception... could use some complexity added to the mix with class "specializations"... Like Necromancers under Sorcs, etc.

rudimentxb14_ESO · April 2017

Subversus wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Could you briefly sum up the changes that bioware made? I'm curious now.

So SWTOR had a skill tree mechanic yeah? It was somewhat of a more complicated version of CP, where you unlock all your abilities and passives, making it possible to build your character how you wanted. What they did was remove all that choice and pick the points themselves and assign to different roles and classes. So instead of having the choice to build your character you basically had it set up for you.

They also drastically changes class mechanics exactly like ZO$E is doing now, except for the reason: Bioware wanted to dumb down the game, our beloved wrobel wants to make it harder.

Oh yeah and the final nail in the coffin was when they announced that they won't release any new group content because of the focus on the "solo experience". They only recently started changing their minds when they realized that ppl are quitting in masses...

Ajaxduo wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Bioware is the developer of the MMO known as SWTOR. An amazing game ruined by the lack of communication between the devs and the community.

During patch 3.0 (yeah really funny) they completely dumbed down the combat and ability system "to cater for new players". This was the change that started a chain reaction and effectively killed off 90%+ of the game's eng game population. They are starting to listen now, but it's too little too (extremely) late.

Do not make the same mistake. Listen to the community. We are the ones playing your game. It doesn't matter if you think the changes are good, if we don't we will simply stop playing.

lol SWTOR was gutted a long time ago, endless broken promises which killed the progression raiding community. General balance changes is fine, but I'm not okay with homogenization.

3.0 was indeed a long time ago... game was amazing before that, steady flow of new PvE content, we still had our top tier rading guilds (that moved to wow 1 patch later...) and the ranked pvp scene was flourishing. Imo path 2.X was the best time the game has ever had (and I played it since beta).

I played Swtor pre 3.0 and it was amazing. 3.0 was the nail in the coffin but i quit around 2.7 when they implemented that bolster crap to PvP

JimT722 · April 2017

ashenb14_ESO wrote: »

here, for those who really just cant get it, watch GillianTheRogue explain then SHOW YOU what this does to stamblade builds...they wont be viable in pve anymore, to get enough regen/reduction to sustain for bosses they will have to stack regen/sustain sets and lose quite alot of damage..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK5D32QGsy0&t=2928s

This was a good showing of what the implications of this patch are and it is exactly what I feared when reading the patch notes. It has the exact opposite effect the devs are trying to achieve. Top players won't be very effected. The floor will drop big time. Every system of the game is less effective. It will be even more essential to weave attacks effectively and reapply dots or buffs at the end of their duration because costs are so high. Essentially everyone who can't make the most of everything they are doing are really going to have a hard time in PvE in countering the damage this patch does.

It seems in order to get good sustain, heavy attack builds are likely going to be the way to go. As a nightblade I don't like this. I won't cover the cost of siphoning attacks until my 6th basic attack. If that will include heavy attacks, that skill may likely come off my skill bar. Reliance on heavy attacks isn't fun. It is slow and the amount it restores means frequent uses. It isn't fun.

Derra · April 2017

Poliwrath wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ironically bioware made the same mistakes with swtors bgs (and tried to fix them afterwards) zos is making now.

What mistakes are those?

@Poliwrath
No rating in battlegrounds.
Premade vs random and solo vs group all in one queue.
All the randoms and not so good players left because they would only get stomped in battlegrounds by certain premade groups.

At the time they introduced rated arenas the pvp playerbase was so small that rating hat no practical effects - randoms/bad players that tried playing them in the hope of getting matched against their skill level would still be matched against top players as there was simply no one else to play with.
They got stomped and did not bother to play.

Imo for such a system to work reliably it needs a large enough playerbase (which zos has most likely due to the megaserver architecture) and matchmaking to avoid getting into maches where you get stomped repeatedly.

Also i think that 4v4v4 is not a smart setup for bgs as on average you have only 33% of the participants winning with 66% loosing. Even with a perfect mmr system someone not at the top of the foodchain would always see between 60 and 70% of his battlegrounds as loss.
Because with 3 factions you can´t win half of the fights

- which might create an overall negative feeling towards them when you loose a lot more than you win.

But what do i know.

zaria · April 2017

Arenguros wrote: »

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

Have you tried lvling mag Sorc on PTS from 0 without any help or dumb powerlvling? It's disaster, you will run out of mana by just killing ONE mob and then you gotta go afk until you get your mp back.

Have you tried on live?
Last time I checked, fresh toons have no CP, no passives, no gear with any sustain and no active sustain abilites.
I wonder how they kill anything?
(Hint: It involves light and heavy attacking, as well as occasional use of the few abilities at their disposal).

an new character in junk gear will run out of resources very fast, as you have no passives.
Its the only one not affected by the nerf.

Subversus · April 2017

aeowulf wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

This was what killed LOTRO for me as well. It was a real pain seeing what was going on in the closed beta and them holding onto the NDA for so long up to HD release.

It completely gutted my characters I had for 7ish years or whatever it was at the time. They played nothing like how they were before. They became dull, uninteresting carbon copies of every other character of the same class out there.

I was on Laurelin, my guild went from regular weekly raids to dead in under a month. All wardens and rune keepers just switched off because their class was changed so much, and those that left took their friends/partners with them.

That is exactly what I'm afraid will happen with stam dk and Templar players if the pts changes don't get changed. Having o

Derra wrote: »

Poliwrath wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ironically bioware made the same mistakes with swtors bgs (and tried to fix them afterwards) zos is making now.

What mistakes are those?

@Poliwrath
No rating in battlegrounds.
Premade vs random and solo vs group all in one queue.
All the randoms and not so good players left because they would only get stomped in battlegrounds by certain premade groups.

At the time they introduced rated arenas the pvp playerbase was so small that rating hat no practical effects - randoms/bad players that tried playing them in the hope of getting matched against their skill level would still be matched against top players as there was simply no one else to play with.
They got stomped and did not bother to play.

Imo for such a system to work reliably it needs a large enough playerbase (which zos has most likely due to the megaserver architecture) and matchmaking to avoid getting into maches where you get stomped repeatedly.

Also i think that 4v4v4 is not a smart setup for bgs as on average you have only 33% of the participants winning with 66% loosing. Even with a perfect mmr system someone not at the top of the foodchain would always see between 60 and 70% of his battlegrounds as loss.
Because with 3 factions you can´t win half of the fights - which might create an overall negative feeling towards them when you loose a lot more than you win.

But what do i know.

I don't even want to start on how much I dislike the idea of 3v3v3... it will feel like a mosh pit, go to the objective and kill everyone in sight. No matter how you play it, there will always be a team that's undermanned and playing in a 3v6

Gandrhulf_Harbard · April 2017

Arenguros wrote: »

Yeah, with the difference, this isn't "dumbing it down", it's actually a change to make the game more challenging and to restore the initial games state where resources did matter.

Making it so EVERYONE'S rotation will be: Class Skill > Heavy Attack > Buff/Debuff > Heavy Attack > Class Skill > Heavy Attack > Buff/Debuff > Heavy Attack > Class Skill > Heavy Attack > Buff/Debuff > Heavy Attack > Class Skill > Heavy Attack > Buff/Debuff > Heavy Attack.

Is NOT challenging. It's boring as hell, and literally no one will want to play it.

All The Best

Gandrhulf_Harbard · April 2017

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

Do you know where this will lead? New people who will start playing this game (IF any) will quit pretty fast, because solo questing became simply not enjoyable.

Oh it's worse than that.

Its not that solo questing is not enjoyable, its no longer really viable.

All The Best

Uriel_Nocturne · April 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Arenguros wrote: »

Yeah, with the difference, this isn't "dumbing it down", it's actually a change to make the game more challenging and to restore the initial games state where resources did matter.

Making it so EVERYONE'S rotation will be: Class Skill > Heavy Attack > Buff/Debuff > Heavy Attack > Class Skill > Heavy Attack > Buff/Debuff > Heavy Attack > Class Skill > Heavy Attack > Buff/Debuff > Heavy Attack > Class Skill > Heavy Attack > Buff/Debuff > Heavy Attack.

Is NOT challenging. It's boring as hell, and literally no one will want to play it.

All The Best

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

Do you know where this will lead? New people who will start playing this game (IF any) will quit pretty fast, because solo questing became simply not enjoyable.

Oh it's worse than that.

Its not that solo questing is not enjoyable, its no longer really viable.

All The Best

This is one of those rare times that you and I agree completely on how badly changes to the game are going to negatively affect it.

zaria · April 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Arenguros wrote: »

Yeah, with the difference, this isn't "dumbing it down", it's actually a change to make the game more challenging and to restore the initial games state where resources did matter.

Making it so EVERYONE'S rotation will be: Class Skill > Heavy Attack > Buff/Debuff > Heavy Attack > Class Skill > Heavy Attack > Buff/Debuff > Heavy Attack > Class Skill > Heavy Attack > Buff/Debuff > Heavy Attack > Class Skill > Heavy Attack > Buff/Debuff > Heavy Attack.

Is NOT challenging. It's boring as hell, and literally no one will want to play it.

All The Best

Rotation will be boring and not challenging, i switched my templar to mostly heal as her dps is lower than sorcerer and the boss fights feel clunky. On sorcerer I move around doing my rotation and has to watch out how pet handles and if frag proc.

On the other hand dungeons will be challenging, your dps is far lower, tank and healer is always low on resources.
Healers already run an sustain build and use heavy attacks so its nothing much to gain here.

zaria · April 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

Do you know where this will lead? New people who will start playing this game (IF any) will quit pretty fast, because solo questing became simply not enjoyable.

Oh it's worse than that.

Its not that solo questing is not enjoyable, its no longer really viable.

All The Best

Don't think solo questing will be affected much, even strongest quest bosses will die before you run out of resources as max is around 250k health or 25 seconds with just 10k dps.

wimhwimladimf · April 2017

Arenguros wrote: »

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

Have you tried lvling mag Sorc on PTS from 0 without any help or dumb powerlvling? It's disaster, you will run out of mana by just killing ONE mob and then you gotta go afk until you get your mp back.

Have you tried on live?
Last time I checked, fresh toons have no CP, no passives, no gear with any sustain and no active sustain abilites.
I wonder how they kill anything?
(Hint: It involves light and heavy attacking, as well as occasional use of the few abilities at their disposal).

Ofc i tried it on live and trust me, even with 7 LA parts i still run out of mp pretty fast. The only thing that made me go through was experience from other MMOs and hope that once i get some CP and sets it will become better. This however, doesnt change the fact that lvling through solo questing and exploration will become even worse due to all the nerfs.

Angier · April 2017

Subversus wrote: »

^ guys that's not the point, that was a mere example. Point is that they should listen to us. While I do agree that the sustain needs seizable nerfs, this is not the way to do it.

As it currently stands this is not better, this is absolute worse. Wanted pvp to feel closer to what it felt at launch? This is not how you do it.

Who is 'us' and what does qualify these people to give feedback more valuable than inhouse experimentation?

Juhasow · April 2017

Subversus wrote: »

^ guys that's not the point, that was a mere example. Point is that they should listen to us. While I do agree that the sustain needs seizable nerfs, this is not the way to do it.

As it currently stands this is not better, this is absolute worse. Wanted pvp to feel closer to what it felt at launch? This is not how you do it.

Oh , so You know how to do it. Go on then tell this to Zenimax . Tell everything to them.

Juhasow · April 2017

Derra wrote: »

Ironically bioware made the same mistakes with swtors bgs (and tried to fix them afterwards) zos is making now.

Warzones was fun especially 8v8.

Elsonso · April 2017

I am not sure where people are getting the idea that new players, specifically new solo players, are going to walk away due to changes in this update.

idk · April 2017

Subversus wrote: »

Bioware is the developer of the MMO known as SWTOR. An amazing game ruined by the lack of communication between the devs and the community.

During patch 3.0 (yeah really funny) they completely dumbed down the combat and ability system "to cater for new players". This was the change that started a chain reaction and effectively killed off 90%+ of the game's eng game population. They are starting to listen now, but it's too little too (extremely) late.

Do not make the same mistake. Listen to the community. We are the ones playing your game. It doesn't matter if you think the changes are good, if we don't we will simply stop playing.

True. Many long time subscribers left the game after that and the recent expansion brought about more long time subs leaving.

We must recall Zos feels ESO is made up of more casual players according to their own specific words and they're obviously thinking their catering to them. Zos has said the game population is a players that play for a few weeks then head off to return later for a few weeks. Funny thing is I've even back for 18 months and played over 12 months from launch. Many like me that play and play and play. Only reason I left for a bit is many I knew left after 1.6/2.0 changes.