P2W has always existed in this game to some extent. Most of it has been overlooked because it was either so small as to easily go ignored or it was something the majority took part in.

The reason P2W is being thrown around in regards to the Warden is because everyone is being affected by its arrival. No class has gone untouched by the nerfs thats coming and so many regardless of where they stood before the release of patch notes are rightly angry.

Personally I dont think the Warden will be a blatant P2W class as many fear but I also cant remember every race in the game being beaten with the nerfbat when they announced Imperial either.

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

P2W has always existed in this game to some extent. Most of it has been overlooked because it was either so small as to easily go ignored or it was something the majority took part in.

The reason P2W is being thrown around in regards to the Warden is because everyone is being affected by its arrival. No class has gone untouched by the nerfs thats coming and so many regardless of where they stood before the release of patch notes are rightly angry.

Personally I dont think the Warden will be a blatant P2W class as many fear but I also cant remember every race in the game being beaten with the nerfbat when they announced Imperial either.

They annouced Imperial before game launched ...

Violynne wrote: »

I only partially agree with the UrbanDictionary's definition.

P2W is simply this: when players can buy items, using real world cash, for any advantage which cannot be found in the game (grinding irrelevant).

I've heard people state the Experience scrolls in the Crown store are P2W. Incorrect. Psijic Ambrosia exists as a recipe in the game and is available to all players, despite the months it may take to acquire it (or easily, if you have 200k+ gold to buy it from a guild store).

I've heard people stating the new Warden class is P2W. I cannot confirm this because I do not know if Wardens are playable in the base game.

If they are playable in the base game, then Warden absolutely is a P2W class. If the new class is limited only to the Morrowind content, then it is not a P2W class.

"Winning" has nothing to do with the subject. At any time a boost is given to a player which cannot be obtained in the game, it's "P2W", though it would be more accurate to say "Pay To Get Better Things", or P2GBT.

If people want microtransactions to end in gaming, stop buying them. But we all know the reality is players will never stop buying them, making Luke Smith's (Bungie) comment of "throwing money at the screen" 100% true.

If Warden will be so overpowered, then it will be P2W otherwise it will be additional content.

Pay to win is when you don't want to pay for X and you know others will, and it makes you so mad you start a thread on the forum about how X is pay to win; and announce the impending doom of whatever product cycle you are commenting on.

Violynne wrote: »

I only partially agree with the UrbanDictionary's definition.

P2W is simply this: when players can buy items, using real world cash, for any advantage which cannot be found in the game (grinding irrelevant).

I've heard people state the Experience scrolls in the Crown store are P2W. Incorrect. Psijic Ambrosia exists as a recipe in the game and is available to all players, despite the months it may take to acquire it (or easily, if you have 200k+ gold to buy it from a guild store).

I've heard people stating the new Warden class is P2W. I cannot confirm this because I do not know if Wardens are playable in the base game.

If they are playable in the base game, then Warden absolutely is a P2W class. If the new class is limited only to the Morrowind content, then it is not a P2W class.

"Winning" has nothing to do with the subject. At any time a boost is given to a player which cannot be obtained in the game, it's "P2W", though it would be more accurate to say "Pay To Get Better Things", or P2GBT.

If people want microtransactions to end in gaming, stop buying them. But we all know the reality is players will never stop buying them, making Luke Smith's (Bungie) comment of "throwing money at the screen" 100% true.

LOL. You must not understand the definition you posted.

You pay time and probably ingame gold, earned in-game, to make the Ambrosia. On the other hand, someone can pay ZoS 20 buck, buy crowns and PAY for the XP scrolls, which power levels their character to make them stronger so they WIN fights against those who spent TIME and MONEY in the game or the plebes who dont have the cash. (PAY 20 bucks and have immediately, spend 200 hours earning or do without.)

Actually, if everyone can play warden (which they cant) it would be NOT Pay to Win.

Since you PAY for Morrowind, which allows you to build a Warden, and the warden looks on paper to be overpowered in every way, so you WIN everything, its pretty much the definition of PAY TO WIN. Oh, and yeah, you have to buy Morrowind to be able to make one, but you CERTAINLY will not be restricted to Morrowind content only.

You will see max level wardens in Cyrodiil first day. People will just pay cash for the token to change their main maxed out character into a warden.

What are you trying to say in the last part of your post? It disagrees with what you started with. Winning is in the fraking name of the title and 1/3 of P2W.

People against P2W generally want games to just sell cosmetics or skins, not boosts, for their microtranactions.

thetraumasurgeon wrote: »

ESO is not P2W. It's PFC (pay for convenience). If you don't want to wait 6 months to upgrade your horse, you can pay in crowns to have it upgraded now.

This.

Not sure what people think "winning" is in this game, anyway, unless you consider becoming Emperor "winning."

This scroll grants you 300 Weapon Damage and 4k health for 2h.

That's P2W

OP , go and play any asian free to play MMO and you will see. Only Black Desert, Aion and Blade and Soul are a little bit different.

The main problem with P2W is that your power in game grows in proportion with the amount of money you spend. Having to buy a game to have a powerful character is not pay to win. That is just a pay wall. You have to own ESO to have a powerful character.

Another clear case is directly paying for combat buffs that stack or that can't be obtained without paying. Examples would be paying for a damage multiplier or for a 2 hour shield. Make that damage multiplier stack, and you can't compete with someone who spends $500 on buffs unless you spend close to their amount.

Being able to buy the top BOP gear also seems like P2W, even though it is a kind of catch-up mechanic. Some gear is so hard to get with the trait you want, that being able the throw money at the game to acquire it would lead to extremely active long-time players being left behind by those who pay money.

In general, I am not concerned with catch-up mechanics or paying for XP (as with scrolls or ESO+ xp and research buffs). This just allows people to more quickly catch up to where most players already are on at least one character. Sure, 2 new players will progress at different rates. But in the end, they are only catching up to people at max level. Also, with scaling, this isn't as big of a deal as it could be otherwise.

I am also not concerned with periodic pay walls. I would have no problem if a gear level required buying an expansion. In general, I am fine with them saying you need to pay at least $40 this year to keep pace. Just don't allow people to go higher and higher by paying more and more.

I do not consider warden P2W due to the previous point. Also, it has not been established that the warden class is better than others at particular needed roles.

I feel like P2W is a term people throw around to make things sound bad without having to put in the effort to prove there is actually a problem. P2W or not P2W, there is no problem with ZOS requiring people to pay $40 once a year for a new class (if they were releasing a new class every year).

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

P2W has always existed in this game to some extent. Most of it has been overlooked because it was either so small as to easily go ignored or it was something the majority took part in.

The reason P2W is being thrown around in regards to the Warden is because everyone is being affected by its arrival. No class has gone untouched by the nerfs thats coming and so many regardless of where they stood before the release of patch notes are rightly angry.

Personally I dont think the Warden will be a blatant P2W class as many fear but I also cant remember every race in the game being beaten with the nerfbat when they announced Imperial either.

Apples and oranges. The nerfs can all be traced back to complaints about current game, independent of warden class. Updates without a new class have had no shortage of nerfs to classes. Races don't have the same level of chaos.

@Phinix1 pretty much has it right on the head. Just because you're not overtly wrecking someone in a duel through the virtue an ungodly powerful, cash shop weapon, doesn't mean that extra bit of bag space isn't a little sliver of P2W. And this is how companies, like ZOS, operate. Little, insidious changes at a time, culminating into their ultimate goal over the long haul, without players ever being the wiser to their own willing coercion and conversion into this new gaming and marketing paradigm that is microtransactions.

The issue here isn't what is and isn't P2W, anymore. It's what level of P2W are we comfortable with? Let me take you on a walk real quick.

You wake up at eight in the morning. You've got a standard 9-5, you're single, and you're living on your own. You pay your bills and your taxes like everyone else. Your insurance is solid, and your car isn't falling apart. You get ready and head to work, of course you're paid hourly, and you slog through the day. Or dance, pirouette, or whatever your particular demeanor at work is. Every hour, you make a certain amount of money.

What is money?

Money is just time invested, quantified and given tangible value.
Money can be saved. It can be compressed, collected, and focused towards any goal you can think of in life. You may have only 24 hours in a day, but you have hundreds of hours saved in your bank account. That's what pushed us into this money-centric era, out of the barter system. How you leverage that invested time will directly correlate with how far you go in life.

Now, I'm not saying that you should work twenty four hours non-stop. Your body would fail. It's not feasible. So, you work smart. You pace yourself, and at the end of a long day, you come home, decompress with one of your favorite, most reliable activities, and you sleep. Ideally, anyway. We all know adulting doesn't work quite that well. You're not making money now. You're at rest, and your body is recovering. Actively. This is leveraging time to your advantage. If you go full-tilt towards one extreme in the spectrum, neglecting the other side, you encounter diminished returns. That's why so many lifestyles are focused on balance, and why we have a standardized work-period in one, standard day.

Back to ESO. Plain and simple, let's start with Phinix's example.

Research Scrolls.

Research scrolls are an available option to spend your invested time into saving time. We spend time to earn money, we earn money to save and leverage time. It's here, it works, and that's precisely because we all instinctively want to save time. In the scope of life, you cannot be faulted for taking every single opportunity that comes your way. Life is harsh.

A game is not.

A video game may be one of your chosen, favorite decompressing activities. MMOs in particular are diverse enough to scratch that particular itch so many of us have, whatever the underlying reason for said itch is. Winning a game, socializing, zoning out and reflecting, channeling your creativity into a constructive medium. This is your drive. What drives your drive?

It all comes down to validation. Winning feels good because it's supposed to. It's instinct.
Socializing, inner reflection, creative exploits, they all come back to validation. It's part of the recovery process, while you get ready for the next day. The next money grab.

The purpose of a game is, in the simplest term possible, to have fun. The nature of our paths to having fun, our validation, creates a not-so-friendly competition between players. It creates friction, and in its own way, devalues the fun you have.

Add Research Scrolls to the equation. You've spent a long period of time waiting and working towards your research goals, achieving the maximum level required to open up the crafting world. You did this without research scrolls, the only difference in this equation between you, and someone who buys said scrolls in the future. Refer back to the competitiveness that is inherent to having fun. You've invested your time. They've invested less, and they've received as much as you have, or more.

Wouldn't you say your own investment has been devalued? It does directly affect you, because in any game where the goalposts are constantly shifted, the players know they're being manipulated. There's a reason 'Shifting the Goalpost' is a metaphor for unsuccessful arguments.

This is one example, upon quite a few in this game in particular. All it takes is enough thought to see the P2W in everything this game has to offer. Try looking at craft bags, and see what conclusions you reach with this information. Try applying it to cosmetics, and wrestle with that bag of snakes. Time is everything.

It comes down to, what is the acceptable level of P2W for you?
As soon as we define that, we can get rid of this uncertain, flame post-ridden divide we have, and work towards having a better game for (most) everyone involved.

Understanding is the key to everything. o/

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

...
Add Research Scrolls to the equation. You've spent a long period of time waiting and working towards your research goals, achieving the maximum level required to open up the crafting world. You did this without research scrolls, the only difference in this equation between you, and someone who buys said scrolls in the future. Refer back to the competitiveness that is inherent to having fun. You've invested your time. They've invested less, and they've received as much as you have, or more.

Wouldn't you say your own investment has been devalued? It does directly affect you, because in any game where the goalposts are constantly shifted, the players know they're being manipulated. There's a reason 'Shifting the Goalpost' is a metaphor for unsuccessful arguments.

How other people finish research has no bearing on the value of my accomplishment. I know my effort. Why would I care if people waste money to buy something they can get for free by playing a game? I am actually happy to hear of whales throwing money at the game. I would be happy to let them pay to level alts straight to 50. That keeps the game profitable without me needing to spend much. When I complete a motif, I care nothing about those who bought the motif in the crown store. Why would I? Am I going to feel like running a marathon was a waste because someone was able to drive from the starting area to the finish line?

To be honest, this example doesn't even make sense. If you still have research, you can speed it up down the road with the scrolls. If you have finished all research, what is the problem? Would you have waited for the scrolls instead of doing the research if you knew they were coming? I suspect the answer is "no". The only people who have any argument to put forth are new players who get left it the dust by other new players.

A real example of moving the goalposts is saying that with the sub, you will always have access to all new content and then changing that to "crown store dlc" only and changing one of the promised quarterly DLC to a "chapter."

It's more of a strict advantage a paying person would have over a non-paying person, and often times, with B2P games, you've already bought the game, yet, we've learned with MMOs that DLC / xpacs are expected to be eventual, future parts of the game that do not exist until they are released. One could argue that DLC / xpacs are P2W, which is a bit of difficult argument c considering how most MMOs do often release xpacs / DLC, but you also must remember that, in most cases (all for ESO), you must EARN your way into obtaining. As opposed to P2W, which argues that money is substituted for effort and time.

Thus, P2W can be defined by game balance along the following thought process:

1. All abilities, features, and gear in the game that give a competitive advantage are obtainable in the base game or in expansions / DLC.
2. An instantly available item, ability, or feature in the game that give a competitive advantage or "boost" by paying real world cash in an in-game cash-shop is added to the game.
3. Because 2 has occurred, it is in direct violation of 1.
4. Thus, the game is P2W.

Winning is not relevant since it is personally relative to what a player believes in "winning". There are many mini-games in ESO that dictate what may be winning; however, the idea of "winning" is not relevant, simply because it's merely a saying, not really a literal of actual winning. It is more an issue of the central idea - the selling point of the game - which is combat and gameplay for most MMORPGS. I will mention this later on.

But what if, say, the Thieves Guild DLC gave you 100% more health, magicka, and stamina? Then, of course, it's P2W.

The idea behind this is that you're given extra advantage in combat, the main dish of the feast. Because the entire game is centered around combat - like most MMORPGs - whether it be PvP or PvE, we can say that that it is the main feature of the game. Because the main feature of the game is its selling point, by introducing individual competitive advantages only offered by paying money, the game has essentially become P2W.

Right now, I would not consider the game P2W, as nothing in the crown store has offered anything that would give you a competitive advantage by any means. I would not consider the Morrowind xpac / any DLCs P2W because I would argue they are a product of what most MMOs make overtime: expansions and DLCs, especially how you must exert similar effort to attain these specific advantages as you would in the base game. HOWEVER: the rise of the cash shop also gave host to P2W becoming more stream-lined. I would argue the term itself is more linked to cash shops giving unfair advantages than DLCs or xpacs.

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

...
Add Research Scrolls to the equation. You've spent a long period of time waiting and working towards your research goals, achieving the maximum level required to open up the crafting world. You did this without research scrolls, the only difference in this equation between you, and someone who buys said scrolls in the future. Refer back to the competitiveness that is inherent to having fun. You've invested your time. They've invested less, and they've received as much as you have, or more.

Wouldn't you say your own investment has been devalued? It does directly affect you, because in any game where the goalposts are constantly shifted, the players know they're being manipulated. There's a reason 'Shifting the Goalpost' is a metaphor for unsuccessful arguments.

How other people finish research has no bearing on the value of my accomplishment. I know my effort. Why would I care if people waste money to buy something they can get for free by playing a game? I am actually happy to hear of whales throwing money at the game. I would be happy to let them pay to level alts straight to 50. That keeps the game profitable without me needing to spend much. When I complete a motif, I care nothing about those who bought the motif in the crown store. Why would I? Am I going to feel like running a marathon was a waste because someone was able to drive from the starting area to the finish line?

To be honest, this example doesn't even make sense. If you still have research, you can speed it up down the road with the scrolls. If you have finished all research, what is the problem? Would you have waited for the scrolls instead of doing the research if you knew they were coming? I suspect the answer is "no". The only people who have any argument to put forth are new players who get left it the dust by other new players.

A real example of moving the goalposts is saying that with the sub, you will always have access to all new content and then changing that to "crown store dlc" only and changing one of the promised quarterly DLC to a "chapter."

Hey, I never said it was universal. Everyone values their time to some degree, whether that's less, or more.