What exactly is "pay to win?"

Phinix1

It seems many define "winning" strictly from the point of view of PVP. This may be familiar to people who have played arena PVP type games, mostly F2P titles, that sell "god mode" items directly in the cash shop, items that let you essentially auto-win against another human opponent who hasn't paid for a similar buff.

However I think this definition is far too narrow. I think to define "pay to win" you must first define "what is WINNING?", and I feel that will vary depending on the nature of the game you are playing.

In the context of a purely PVP arena game yes, defeating your enemy (another player) in combat is the only real victory to be achieved. But the range of goals, activities, and rewards in an MMORPG are much more complex, and the things one can "win at" much more broadly defined because of it. Therefor I think it is dishonest to use the same definition of "what is winning" to apply to MMORPGs as one would to describe "winning" in a PVP arena game.

There is a whole complex school of psychology surrounding MMORPG's and what motivates people to play them. Some say it is a need for validation. Some say it is addiction. Some see it as a way to escape their lives while others see it simply as entertainment or "brain exercise," an outlet for creative imagination, or just a forum for interaction with other people.

I have noticed people (game developers specifically) tend to be very sensitive regarding their own pet theories about what drives MMORPG sales, yet for all their insistence on one gimmick or fad or assumption about human nature based on rat studies or whatever, essentially NO MMORPG has managed to get "the formula" exactly right over any protracted period. Not since WoW during the height of Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King and the BILLIONS of dollars (yes, with a 'b') that Blizzard made during that period have the stars of this elusive and esoteric equation aligned so perfectly.

I think this is in part because MMO companies today tend to be far more concerned with chasing fads and gimmicks and cash shop profits in the short term than making games with HEART and PASSION that last, but that is another conversation.

The point is, I believe that "winning" in an MMORPG has to take into account some of this same psychology about what motivates people to play them. THAT, I believe, is what would constitute "winning" FOR THEM.

While it is an admittedly complex field of sociology, one driving theme that has been well established is the "sense of accomplishment," which is why people seek completion ("gotta catch 'em all"), and work towards achievements, titles, rep grinds, or other unique means of establishing themselves apart from other players. It is what sells mounts and vanity items and keeps people hunting for motifs, leveling up crafting professions, etc.

Now, consider the recent addition of crafting research shortcuts to the Crown store. In this game, taking the time to do the research to be able to craft more niche gear sets like Pelinal or Twice Born Star used to be one of those things that set people who did it apart and thus, SOMETHING OF VALUE to them. Guilds had "guild crafters" that would make these sets, and it made people feel sort of important because they had something to offer more than just showing up with a credit card. It showed they played the game, they had been around, they were veterans.

This sense of personal accomplishment and setting one's role apart is precisely what is undermined by simply selling these things to whoever throws money at the Crown Store, and since that sense of uniqueness and importance to the group is what was "winning" to the completionist MMORPG player, and since the person buying it ostensibly seeks these abilities for the same reason, TO FEEL IMPORTANT, or to undermine the importance of others, I would say that is pretty directly pay to win in this context.

Consider, why someone would care if they won or not against their opponent in a PVP arena game? Why does it really matter if someone pays for an OP buff that makes their virtual pixels defeat your virtual pixels in imaginary combat? BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD TO WIN. It is the same for people's sense of accomplishment in crafting, in titles, whatever.

Different definitions, different opinions, different gaming genres, but you cannot deny that someone just showing up with money and buying the whole guild something is going to upset the person that invested time and care into building up the ability to provide that service when their role is rendered superfluous overnight by someone's credit card.

I think a very important point to consider in these discussions is that just because it doesn't matter to you doesn't make it right to marginalize what is important to others when making assumptions about what is "valuable" and what is "winning."

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

Warden

Vildebill

Nerfing all classes and releasing a new class that got stuff that was removed from other classes and costs money is pay to ward.. uhm win.

Phinix1

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

Warden

Not really though, because it doesn't provide a sense of accomplishment by rolling one any more than it undermines someone rolling any other character, so it is more "different" then it is "winning."

Whether the class is designed to be OP compared to all others remains to be seen but I kinda doubt it. Even if it was and stayed that way through PTS testing all the way to launch day, there is no way it would be allowed to remain that way for long. Massive loss of sales would prevent it.

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

Phinix1 wrote: »

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

Warden

Not really though, because it doesn't provide a sense of accomplishment by rolling one any more than it undermines someone rolling any other character, so it is more "different" then it is "winning."

Whether the class is designed to be OP compared to all others remains to be seem but I kinda doubt it.

Based on what's happened to the Templar it seem P2W to me

colig

Vildebill wrote: »

Nerfing all classes and releasing a new class that got stuff that was removed from other classes and costs money is pay to ward.. uhm win.

I think it's more likely that during the design of Warden, they were unable to make something interesting that could stand toe to toe with the already capable healing class in the game, and so decided to hammer their kneecaps instead and call it balance.

Dragnelus

Your (insert)

ChildOfLight

Phinix1 wrote: »

It seems many define "winning" strictly from the point of view of PVP. This may be familiar to people who have played arena PVP type games, mostly F2P titles, that sell "god mode" items directly in the cash shop, items that let you essentially auto-win against another human opponent who hasn't paid for a similar buff.

However I think this definition is far too narrow. I think to define "pay to win" you must first define "what is WINNING?", and I feel that will vary depending on the nature of the game you are playing.

In the context of a purely PVP arena game yes, defeating your enemy (another player) in combat is the only real victory to be achieved. But the range of goals, activities, and rewards in an MMORPG are much more complex, and the things one can "win at" much more broadly defined because of it. Therefor I think it is dishonest to use the same definition of "what is winning" to apply to MMORPGs as one would to describe "winning" in a PVP arena game.

There is a whole complex school of psychology surrounding MMORPG's and what motivates people to play them. Some say it is a need for validation. Some say it is addiction. Some see it as a way to escape their lives while others see it simply as entertainment or "brain exercise," an outlet for creative imagination, or just a forum for interaction with other people.

I have noticed people (game developers specifically) tend to be very sensitive regarding their own pet theories about what drives MMORPG sales, yet for all their insistence on one gimmick or fad or assumption about human nature based on rat studies or whatever, essentially NO MMORPG has managed to get "the formula" exactly right over any protracted period. Not since WoW during the height of Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King and the BILLIONS of dollars (yes, with a 'b') that Blizzard made during that period have the stars of this elusive and esoteric equation aligned so perfectly.

I think this is in part because MMO companies today tend to be far more concerned with chasing fads and gimmicks and cash shop profits in the short term than making games with HEART and PASSION that last, but that is another conversation.

The point is, I believe that "winning" in an MMORPG has to take into account some of this same psychology about what motivates people to play them. THAT, I believe, is what would constitute "winning" FOR THEM.

While it is an admittedly complex field of sociology, one driving theme that has been well established is the "sense of accomplishment," which is why people seek completion ("gotta catch 'em all"), and work towards achievements, titles, rep grinds, or other unique means of establishing themselves apart from other players. It is what sells mounts and vanity items and keeps people hunting for motifs, leveling up crafting professions, etc.

Now, consider the recent addition of crafting research shortcuts to the Crown store. In this game, taking the time to do the research to be able to craft more niche gear sets like Pelinal or Twice Born Star used to be one of those things that set people who did it apart and thus, SOMETHING OF VALUE to them. Guilds had "guild crafters" that would make these sets, and it made people feel sort of important because they had something to offer more than just showing up with a credit card. It showed they played the game, they had been around, they were veterans.

This sense of personal accomplishment and setting one's role apart is precisely what is undermined by simply selling these things to whoever throws money at the Crown Store, and since that sense of uniqueness and importance to the group is what was "winning" to the completionist MMORPG player, and since the person buying it ostensibly seeks these abilities for the same reason, TO FEEL IMPORTANT, or to undermine the importance of others, I would say that is pretty directly pay to win in this context.

Consider, why someone would care if they won or not against their opponent in a PVP arena game? Why does it really matter if someone pays for an OP buff that makes their virtual pixels defeat your virtual pixels in imaginary combat? BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD TO WIN. It is the same for people's sense of accomplishment in crafting, in titles, whatever.

Different definitions, different opinions, different gaming genres, but you cannot deny that someone just showing up with money and buying the whole guild something is going to upset the person that invested time and care into building up the ability to provide that service when their role is rendered superfluous overnight by someone's credit card.

I think a very important point to consider in these discussions is that just because it doesn't matter to you doesn't make it right to marginalize what is important to others when making assumptions about what is "valuable" and what is "winning."

What about the CRAFT BAG?

What about all those posts warning about the slippery slope this game was going through with the introduction of such feature?

Where are those people calling me and the other people that are not subbing "freeloaders" just like if buying crowns only counts when done by subs?

Glad to see someone is waking up. Hope it's not too late.

Tommy_The_Gun

Everything that gives you even slight advantage over other player that you need to pay real money in order to get.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=p2w

"Pay To Win. when you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months).

you can buy a weapon in a game which has 50 damage, while you can buy same type of weapon for REAL money which has 60 damage. that is P2W
you can buy a weapon for 10000 gold, for each 10-15min match you get 100 gold, while you can buy it for real money instantly."


Often it is confused with "pay-to-progress" (that is a kind of a P2W but does not have that much of an impact on balance / gameplay). For example in PvE when you buy something that makes your character earn experience faster etc.

Pay2Win - in eso might be Imperial race and upcoming warden class and Morrowind in general (access to new sets etc. )
Pay2Progress - ESO+ , Riding lessons, Experience scrolls etc.

KerinKor

Phinix1 wrote: »

What exactly is "pay to win?"

A fatuous whine when applied to PVE .. there's no 'winning' when you don't actually 'beat' other players .. something with some merit when applied to PVP .. if there's ever anything in the Store that actually helps your performance in PVP, which currently there isn't of any measurable value.

Phinix1

KerinKor wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

What exactly is "pay to win?"

A fatuous whine when applied to PVE .. there's no 'winning' when you don't actually 'beat' other players .. something with some merit when applied to PVP .. if there's ever anything in the Store that actually helps your performance in PVP, which currently there isn't of any measurable value.

I disagree. I do believe that "winning" in PVP is the only thing of value or important to YOU personally, but that is just your opinion. It does not reflect what might be important or of value to other players.

Phinix1

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Often it is confused with "pay-to-progress" (that is a kind of a P2W but does not have that much of an impact on balance / gameplay). For example in PvE when you buy something that makes your character earn experience faster etc.

Pay2Win - in eso might be Imperial race and upcoming warden class and Morrowind in general (access to new sets etc. )
Pay2Progress - ESO+ , Riding lessons, Experience scrolls etc.

Interesting. But one also has to consider that "time is money" as they say, and people who level crafting research typically ARE paying to progress already by way of subs or Crowns, etc.

So, adding these items to the Crown store isn't quite pay-to-progress either. More like "pay-to-progress-FASTER," which again does seem kind of pay to win to me, at least for things like crafting research which carries with it a value and sense of achievement.

Tommy_The_Gun

KerinKor wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

What exactly is "pay to win?"

A fatuous whine when applied to PVE .. there's no 'winning' when you don't actually 'beat' other players .. something with some merit when applied to PVP .. if there's ever anything in the Store that actually helps your performance in PVP, which currently there isn't of any measurable value.

There is this thing that you can define as Pay-to-progress. It is a part of Pay-to-win but it does not have a that much of an impact on game balance since you don't play against other players.... you only get experience faster...

Artemiisia

pay 2 win is

when you are able to buy gear for real money thats better then any dropped/crafted gear
when you can buy stuff that gives you advantages that you otherwise couldn't get by normal gameplay



some people say warden is p2w but it aint

FlyingSwan

The Warden

Tommy_The_Gun

Artemiisia wrote: »

some people say warden is p2w but it aint

That is until you join to PvP camping / PvP duel and fight against someone who don't have access to Morrowind Chapter and Warden class...

Vaoh

People have lots of differing opinion about P2W. I think it's shown often as ZOS offering Maelstrom Weapons in the Crown Store, or something with an expansion like Morrowind having a set that utterly destroys others in a clear way.

It is best shown by adding something like an "Enhanced" Maelstrom weapon, which would be BiS but only available in the Crown Store. Then you'd have to spend real money to have what is truly the strongest gear.

Artemiisia

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

some people say warden is p2w but it aint

That is until you join to PvP camping / PvP duel and fight against someone who don't have access to Morrowind Chapter and Warden class...

not everyone have access to imperial race either, and thats not p2w so your statement is flawed, even if I played warden i pvp or what ever I wont win everytime

Turelus

For me it's when you have items/gear in cash shops which you have to use to compete.

When you can only get a weapon which does 10k damage in game, but the cash shop sells one which does 15k damage.

You can say the Warden is P2W but if you're going down that route then the games been P2W since launch (Imperial Ed) and you decided to play a P2W game to start with.

zaria

Artemiisia wrote: »

pay 2 win is

when you are able to buy gear for real money thats better then any dropped/crafted gear
when you can buy stuff that gives you advantages that you otherwise couldn't get by normal gameplay

some people say warden is p2w but it aint

if you could buy maelstrom weapons in the crown store it would be P2W even if you can get them in the in game as it require beating some of the hardest content in the game countless times.

Warden is just an new class in an expansion. They tend to be at least slightly OP as they want people to play them.
New gear in expansions are also not P2W.
This is industry standard and it makes sense that stuff in expansions are better than the existing ones.

Avius

@Phinix1
-Try to avoid posting wall of text. It was painful to read it all
-Your way of thinking is good but you're missing few points:
*Goal of PvP it's not simply winning
*Both PvP, PvE are focused on competition, where PvP focuses on making decisions based on decisions of other players, and PvE focuses on making decisions based on state of environment.
*goal of MMO is to interact with other players
*term "pay to win" mean that games provide ADVANTAGE to others players for money.
*I found definition of word "win": "to finish first in a race, contest, or the like". To win you must participate in war/contest/tournament etc., but not necessarily achieving your goals. So if you compete with others players with motif, ESO is "pay to win".

zaria

Artemiisia wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

some people say warden is p2w but it aint

That is until you join to PvP camping / PvP duel and fight against someone who don't have access to Morrowind Chapter and Warden class...

not everyone have access to imperial race either, and thats not p2w so your statement is flawed, even if I played warden i pvp or what ever I wont win everytime

Well unless you have the expansions you can not get lots of BiS stuff like maelstrom weapons or engine guardian.

Nobody will say WOW is P2W, however unless you have the last expansions an top PvP player in BiS gear will lose to an noob in questing gear, this is because WOW raises the level cap with each expansion and has an insane power creep with levels.

Purpose of an dlc and expansion is new content, this tend to be better than the old one.
Luckily eso is not wow and content all over is relevant with good stuff spread out.

SydneyGrey

I've noticed that when a lot of people say that something is "pay to win" all they mean is that a newer player might be able to catch up to an older player at a faster rate than they had when they started playing. Not sure why some people find this so threatening.

Galwylin

Pay to win didn't used to have anything to do with PvP. The winning came in where you character could do something better than another character simply because you bought it from the shop. This covers many things from better armor and weapons to tradeskills. Anything you get over another character simply because you handed over your credit card. The craft bag is very much a pay to win type item IF you bought it off the cash shop. But because its tied to a subscription (or whatever its really is), its not considered one since subscriptions to games are usually considered the minimum a player should pay to play. Those bank slots, the horse training, etc. are all pay to win items. Its an advantage over another who plays the game as designed. If you played the game as designed, training the horse took time, adding bank slots cost ingame gold, being able to carrying infinite crafting material is impossible, purchasing furnished housing only with cash. We have just come to accept that advantage is purchasable so of course more and more advantage will be found in the shop.

New classes are rarely considered P2W because they are tied to an expansion. The unusual aspect of the warden is nerfing existing classes then finding those things taken away from them is found on the warden. If its bad on one class, why is good on the new class? People are blurring the line but ZOS blurred that line a good while back on what p2w is.

Avius

@Galwylin
I don't agree with you at 100%.
If I remeber correctly P2W was defined as unplayable or unfun to play for players who don't buy items etc. at cash shop, where buying advantages are nearly mandatory to play. Opposite to that was cash shop with only cosmetic changes, which leaves gameplay unchanged.
ESO made crown store not to impact main "activity" which is PvP and PvE, so every player can compete with others in PvP and PvE, regardless of spent money in cash shop.

samueltannerb14_ESO

Pay to win is code for an excuse lobbed by anyone who wants to complain about a game.

idk

OP is entitled to define P2W however he/she feels. However, the term has a long standing definition that is held as accurate by a majority of the gaming community and that has withstood the test of time.

With that, much of what is said in the OP is a complete distraction from any topic of P2W since it delves into items that are clearly not P2W in the broadest sense someone could reasonably consider as such. Vanity pets is a prime example since it is clearly delving into the absurdity to consider that it is somehow "winning".

It just seems to be a stretch overall throughout the post, but as I said, OP is entitled to his/her opinion. Just because someone has an opinion on a matter does not make it fact.

Dasovaruilos

I respect your opinion but I don't agree that this is Pay 2 Win.

If you want to look for P2W stuff, Riding Speed, vMA (locked behind a DLC) or Spell Power Cure (locked behind DLC) would be much worse offenders than that (and I don't think they are P2W either).

I understand that, whenever someone does something "the hard, long way" and then later other people are enabled to do it quicker and easier, it may be frustrating... It happens all the time in ESO.

The first Grand Overlords get pissed at those who get it after double AP events, old multiple alts V16 get pissed nobody has to grind all the alts anymore, the first CP 300 Stormproofs get pissed people now do vMA in just a few days after starting... This is normal.

In the case of research, IF crafted gear was bound to account/character and IF crafted gear was so much better than dropped, then you could argue that someone could pay their way to get those faster.

But a level 3 player can just buy ANY crafted gear they want at anytime. If one spend hundreds of dollars speeding all their research (because it looks like it will be hundreds to get 9 traits in everything), they just get to do something that they could do by other means before.

So, I don't that much of a problem with that, specially since this "Pay to Progress" is so slow. It is to take ONE day of research.

In our trial guild, one DPS HAD to buy Orsinium simply to go to vMA and try to get a vMA Staff so he could be on the top 8 DPSs to join our core team. This, for me, WOULD be (it is not) the closest to P2W that ESO gets.

Avius

@hugocbp
Agreed.

Dreepa

Can you add a TLDR summary plz?

Whatelse73b14_ESO

I'd say games like "Game of War" and "Mobile Strike" are the extreme examples of pay 2 win. If you don't by their 100 dollar packs regularly, you are left behind (research there is literally in the 100,000 days range once you get to higher levels). Those "freemium" type games have become the example of it.

By some logic you could say any "expansion" of a game you have to buy is P2W because you'll have more opportunity to level up, get gear, etc., because you're raising level with the expansion or going to new places to add resources or gear. Even buying one book from the crown store, or one elixir for health regen could be p2w.

Plenty of good points being discussed about it here though.