What exactly is "pay to win?"

eso_nya

Those scrolls r ***. If they sell em for the same price as riding lessons asleast.

If it would look like a great deal to u to buy a max-level horse from crownstore: U will pay double for maxed out trait crafting. And than u can also buy all the motifs in crownstore \o/ and also stones to craft them. You will be able to craft pelinals all by yourself....or u just find some needy social guild, where someone crafts for free for all the driendly happy ppl in there :P

On a sidenote: u can buy said scrolls for vouchers. Which is great cause now u can do masterwrits not only to do masterwrits faster, but also get more masterwrits to do faster.

ookami007

Pay 2 Win in the case of MMOs is simply this...

When you have to pay money to obtain some special advantage - a class, a skill, etc. - that you cannot otherwise get in game, but is required to have in order to do some content, then that is pay 2 win.

When I say "required to have in order to do some content", I mean... end game content guilds/groups will not allow you to join them unless you have said thing.

kargen27

praglaud wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

The Warden

The elite players in a couple of the guilds I am in are saying people are going to be greatly disappointed if they think the Warden is going to be powerful. These are players that as the game is now can hit 50K single target DPS. They are upset about the changes but are saying even with the changes the Warden character will be average at best.

I can't talk specifcally about my ongoing PTS experience, but whilst Warden is not a behemoth char, it has not suffered the same fate of other classes due to its innate abilities. And those abilities are common knowledge, so I am not breaking my NDA.

Your friends are not wrong, it's just Warden will be average while everything else will be below average. That is most certainly an incentive.

If Warden is average that means there are some better and some worse. I don't play on the PTS because I want the content to be fresh when it goes live in the game. That means I am relying on the opinions of others but these are people I trust when it comes to game play. They are saying they do not see the Warden replacing any other class when it comes to end game activity. I suppose we shall see.

Rohamad_Ali

There are a bazillion definitions of p2w but the only one I recognize is anytime you have to buy something Ingame that gives an advantage over players who didn't .

Now , almost every game has a p2w feature somewhere these days and it doesn't mean the end of the game . Some p2w features get nerfed later for the health of the game and some games continue the course even further . Usually the ones heading towards a f2p model or already in one .

DaveMoeDee

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

...
Add Research Scrolls to the equation. You've spent a long period of time waiting and working towards your research goals, achieving the maximum level required to open up the crafting world. You did this without research scrolls, the only difference in this equation between you, and someone who buys said scrolls in the future. Refer back to the competitiveness that is inherent to having fun. You've invested your time. They've invested less, and they've received as much as you have, or more.

Wouldn't you say your own investment has been devalued? It does directly affect you, because in any game where the goalposts are constantly shifted, the players know they're being manipulated. There's a reason 'Shifting the Goalpost' is a metaphor for unsuccessful arguments.

How other people finish research has no bearing on the value of my accomplishment. I know my effort. Why would I care if people waste money to buy something they can get for free by playing a game? I am actually happy to hear of whales throwing money at the game. I would be happy to let them pay to level alts straight to 50. That keeps the game profitable without me needing to spend much. When I complete a motif, I care nothing about those who bought the motif in the crown store. Why would I? Am I going to feel like running a marathon was a waste because someone was able to drive from the starting area to the finish line?

To be honest, this example doesn't even make sense. If you still have research, you can speed it up down the road with the scrolls. If you have finished all research, what is the problem? Would you have waited for the scrolls instead of doing the research if you knew they were coming? I suspect the answer is "no". The only people who have any argument to put forth are new players who get left it the dust by other new players.

A real example of moving the goalposts is saying that with the sub, you will always have access to all new content and then changing that to "crown store dlc" only and changing one of the promised quarterly DLC to a "chapter."

Hey, I never said it was universal. Everyone values their time to some degree, whether that's less, or more.

Yeah, and if we valued our time, we wouldn't be playing video games.

It isn't a question of valuing one's time. Research does not require much of our time. In fact, research scrolls do not save you any time whatsoever. You still have to get the gear with the trait to research and initiate the research. All it does is make you complete the research faster.

Rhoric

There is no pay to win so get over it

Tornaad

According to The Urban Dictionary

wrote:

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!

So Pay to win is a game built so that he who pays the most wins the most.
That being said a lot of people have that concept confused with what is happening with Morrowind namely adding of new content. In reality most of the complaints are really about the concept that you have to pay separately to get Morrowind if you subscribe to Elder Scrolls Plus.

They try to twist the idea of adding content to being a pay to win situation. However in a real pay to win situation it does not matter how much skill you do or don't have if you pay more money than the other guy you win. That will not be the case with Morrowind.

Now will the Warden be perfectly balanced when it is released? Probably not, but that is a different story and one they will address as they are able to collect more data.

idk

Kay1 wrote: »

This scroll grants you 300 Weapon Damage and 4k health for 2h.

That's P2W

@Kay1 What scroll does this? Seems equivalent to blue food anyhow.

Judas Helviaryn

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

...
Add Research Scrolls to the equation. You've spent a long period of time waiting and working towards your research goals, achieving the maximum level required to open up the crafting world. You did this without research scrolls, the only difference in this equation between you, and someone who buys said scrolls in the future. Refer back to the competitiveness that is inherent to having fun. You've invested your time. They've invested less, and they've received as much as you have, or more.

Wouldn't you say your own investment has been devalued? It does directly affect you, because in any game where the goalposts are constantly shifted, the players know they're being manipulated. There's a reason 'Shifting the Goalpost' is a metaphor for unsuccessful arguments.

How other people finish research has no bearing on the value of my accomplishment. I know my effort. Why would I care if people waste money to buy something they can get for free by playing a game? I am actually happy to hear of whales throwing money at the game. I would be happy to let them pay to level alts straight to 50. That keeps the game profitable without me needing to spend much. When I complete a motif, I care nothing about those who bought the motif in the crown store. Why would I? Am I going to feel like running a marathon was a waste because someone was able to drive from the starting area to the finish line?

To be honest, this example doesn't even make sense. If you still have research, you can speed it up down the road with the scrolls. If you have finished all research, what is the problem? Would you have waited for the scrolls instead of doing the research if you knew they were coming? I suspect the answer is "no". The only people who have any argument to put forth are new players who get left it the dust by other new players.

A real example of moving the goalposts is saying that with the sub, you will always have access to all new content and then changing that to "crown store dlc" only and changing one of the promised quarterly DLC to a "chapter."

Hey, I never said it was universal. Everyone values their time to some degree, whether that's less, or more.

Yeah, and if we valued our time, we wouldn't be playing video games.

It isn't a question of valuing one's time. Research does not require much of our time. In fact, research scrolls do not save you any time whatsoever. You still have to get the gear with the trait to research and initiate the research. All it does is make you complete the research faster.

Soo.. completing your research faster doesn't save time?



You obviously didn't read what I said at all. Everybody needs downtime to function normally. That includes video games.

The bolded parts of your quote show the disconnect. You can't have it both ways.

kargen27

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

...
Add Research Scrolls to the equation. You've spent a long period of time waiting and working towards your research goals, achieving the maximum level required to open up the crafting world. You did this without research scrolls, the only difference in this equation between you, and someone who buys said scrolls in the future. Refer back to the competitiveness that is inherent to having fun. You've invested your time. They've invested less, and they've received as much as you have, or more.

Wouldn't you say your own investment has been devalued? It does directly affect you, because in any game where the goalposts are constantly shifted, the players know they're being manipulated. There's a reason 'Shifting the Goalpost' is a metaphor for unsuccessful arguments.

How other people finish research has no bearing on the value of my accomplishment. I know my effort. Why would I care if people waste money to buy something they can get for free by playing a game? I am actually happy to hear of whales throwing money at the game. I would be happy to let them pay to level alts straight to 50. That keeps the game profitable without me needing to spend much. When I complete a motif, I care nothing about those who bought the motif in the crown store. Why would I? Am I going to feel like running a marathon was a waste because someone was able to drive from the starting area to the finish line?

To be honest, this example doesn't even make sense. If you still have research, you can speed it up down the road with the scrolls. If you have finished all research, what is the problem? Would you have waited for the scrolls instead of doing the research if you knew they were coming? I suspect the answer is "no". The only people who have any argument to put forth are new players who get left it the dust by other new players.

A real example of moving the goalposts is saying that with the sub, you will always have access to all new content and then changing that to "crown store dlc" only and changing one of the promised quarterly DLC to a "chapter."

Hey, I never said it was universal. Everyone values their time to some degree, whether that's less, or more.

Yeah, and if we valued our time, we wouldn't be playing video games.

It isn't a question of valuing one's time. Research does not require much of our time. In fact, research scrolls do not save you any time whatsoever. You still have to get the gear with the trait to research and initiate the research. All it does is make you complete the research faster.

Soo.. completing your research faster doesn't save time?



You obviously didn't read what I said at all. Everybody needs downtime to function normally. That includes video games.

The bolded parts of your quote show the disconnect. You can't have it both ways.

No completing your research faster doesn't save you time in the context in which you present it. If you had to sit there at your computer and watch as your character learned the trait then yes it would save time. As it is now you get the weapon/armor you want to research you click a button and your part in the process is done. How long you then wait doesn't matter as you can do other things. When it is all said and done there is no advantage between learning a trait in five hours or learning it in six. You both get to make the same thing.

FlyingSwan

kargen27 wrote: »

praglaud wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

The Warden

The elite players in a couple of the guilds I am in are saying people are going to be greatly disappointed if they think the Warden is going to be powerful. These are players that as the game is now can hit 50K single target DPS. They are upset about the changes but are saying even with the changes the Warden character will be average at best.

I can't talk specifcally about my ongoing PTS experience, but whilst Warden is not a behemoth char, it has not suffered the same fate of other classes due to its innate abilities. And those abilities are common knowledge, so I am not breaking my NDA.

Your friends are not wrong, it's just Warden will be average while everything else will be below average. That is most certainly an incentive.

If Warden is average that means there are some better and some worse. I don't play on the PTS because I want the content to be fresh when it goes live in the game. That means I am relying on the opinions of others but these are people I trust when it comes to game play. They are saying they do not see the Warden replacing any other class when it comes to end game activity. I suppose we shall see.

Ha, yes that is actually true. I think the statistician part of my brain left for the day

We'll have to see how it plays out. My main concern is actually that too many large and sweeping changes are being landed at the same time as the DLC, and I think the launch will be another ZOS bodge job. I'm going to put this one on the shelf for 6 months and come back when the dust has settled, their track history for managing releases is not the best.

Tommy_The_Gun

Artemiisia wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

some people say warden is p2w but it aint

That is until you join to PvP camping / PvP duel and fight against someone who don't have access to Morrowind Chapter and Warden class...

not everyone have access to imperial race either, and thats not p2w so your statement is flawed, even if I played warden i pvp or what ever I wont win everytime

But...but... Imperial race is Pay-to-win... not that much as warden will be but still - it is something that is relatively strong and "normal" players don't have access to it. If you do PvE with imperial - that is fine. You don't fight other players. But as soon as you start to PvP - then it is Pay-to-win. Not much.. but still...pay-to-win.

Saturnana

In short, P2W is gaining an unfair advantage over non-paying members by making game-related purchases with real-life currency. Most commonly seen as in-game purchases for (often overpowered) items/boons that are unobtainable/extremely hard to obtain otherwise.

Phinix1

SydneyGrey wrote: »

I've noticed that when a lot of people say that something is "pay to win" all they mean is that a newer player might be able to catch up to an older player at a faster rate than they had when they started playing. Not sure why some people find this so threatening.

No one thinks that, at least not directly. In fact most people see a catch-up mechanic for newer players as an inherently good thing for the game. But when game companies take it too far to the point of "milking whales" (I'm sure urban dictionary has a definition) as a business model, so much that it devalues the time and money investment of long-term players, that is understandably destabilizing to the health of the game.

In this scenario if the sense of "winning" is what drives whale purchases, it is understandable that the more a company comes to rely on "milking whales" as a model rather than content, the more they will be willing to push the boundaries of what is generally considered "paying to win."

The biggest problem I have with these types of items (research scrolls, etc.) is that historically the more successful a company is selling such convenience or advantage items, not just to new players but to whales, the more they are tempted to make this sort of short-term cash shop and hype cycle model the focus of future development, often all but abandoning larger content additions and subscription incentives.

At any time in the life of an MMO, 80% or more of revenue is derived from "selling boxes" and from loyal subscribers, long-term players and fans of a title or genre, while 20% or less is derived from "whales," or people that throw $100's or $1000's of dollars a month at a cash shop just to feel special or better than others, or to undermine other's enjoyment of the game by comparison, or just because they really like a particular mount or whatever. This minority of whales isn't enough to keep the game running and evolving by themselves. The company NEEDS the revenue from the majority of subscribers, long-term supporters, and box sales to afford to keep making new content of any quality.

The problem with items like this is it gives the company a false confirmation when they look only at the short term profit data as so many companies do (I more and more see Zenimax as a short-sighted company). They become convinced that a surge of whale purchases in the short term is a sustainable business model, and that they can just keep churning out new cosmetic and convenience items without ever adding any of the things they originally promised to the game, or developing anything but token new content.

I am not suggesting Zenimax has gone entirely that route but it is a slippery slope they definitely tread upon since B2P and gambling boxes were pushed through, despite the outcry of their largest profit demographics.

The more a company believes this, the more the quality of the game suffers. This sets up a desperate feedback loop where more and more loyal customers (the 80% of revenue) leave because what they were loyal to no longer exists (or is no longer prioritized), which affects new sales as word of mouth gets out as to WHY they left, and the company has to churn out more and more gambling items and vanity items and fluff to try and gouge the whales more to make up the difference. But then the whales themselves begin to grow bored with the same old thing, and no more loyal customers around to show it off to, which is the reason many of them buy it in the first place.

So then the company is truly desperate, not only losing their loyal base at an increasing rate, but burning out their whales as well, all the while sitting their like a chicken with no head not comprehending that it is their own stubborn and greedy obsession with de-valuing their own game pandering to short-term vanity profits that caused the whole thing to collapse in the first place. They may then knee-jerk to full F2P mode like so many others, or just shut down entirely.

That is the cycle of failure that I fear this sort of marketing strategy almost inevitably leads to.

A company may believe that chasing a progression of this scenario will net them more profit over the course of a game INTENDED to only have a short run, allowing them to make MINIMAL investment in content and quality of life improvements, in DEPTH and SCOPE, but all they are really doing is rushing to the finish and totally skipping over the "golden years" where MMO's have the potential to make BILLIONS.

It was quality and attention to detail over the long term that brought WoW this almost exclusive success. But if a company doesn't have the drive or PASSION to do things that may not have an immediate short term profit equivalent, they will never know the true profit potential a genre like this can generate. They will end up more or less "breaking even" and then really, what's the point. Just a day job?

TL:DR - Chasing whale profits is a foolish and self-defeating business model.

waterfairy

Prostitutes

JamilaRaj

kargen27 wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

...
Add Research Scrolls to the equation. You've spent a long period of time waiting and working towards your research goals, achieving the maximum level required to open up the crafting world. You did this without research scrolls, the only difference in this equation between you, and someone who buys said scrolls in the future. Refer back to the competitiveness that is inherent to having fun. You've invested your time. They've invested less, and they've received as much as you have, or more.

Wouldn't you say your own investment has been devalued? It does directly affect you, because in any game where the goalposts are constantly shifted, the players know they're being manipulated. There's a reason 'Shifting the Goalpost' is a metaphor for unsuccessful arguments.

How other people finish research has no bearing on the value of my accomplishment. I know my effort. Why would I care if people waste money to buy something they can get for free by playing a game? I am actually happy to hear of whales throwing money at the game. I would be happy to let them pay to level alts straight to 50. That keeps the game profitable without me needing to spend much. When I complete a motif, I care nothing about those who bought the motif in the crown store. Why would I? Am I going to feel like running a marathon was a waste because someone was able to drive from the starting area to the finish line?

To be honest, this example doesn't even make sense. If you still have research, you can speed it up down the road with the scrolls. If you have finished all research, what is the problem? Would you have waited for the scrolls instead of doing the research if you knew they were coming? I suspect the answer is "no". The only people who have any argument to put forth are new players who get left it the dust by other new players.

A real example of moving the goalposts is saying that with the sub, you will always have access to all new content and then changing that to "crown store dlc" only and changing one of the promised quarterly DLC to a "chapter."

Hey, I never said it was universal. Everyone values their time to some degree, whether that's less, or more.

Yeah, and if we valued our time, we wouldn't be playing video games.

It isn't a question of valuing one's time. Research does not require much of our time. In fact, research scrolls do not save you any time whatsoever. You still have to get the gear with the trait to research and initiate the research. All it does is make you complete the research faster.

Soo.. completing your research faster doesn't save time?



You obviously didn't read what I said at all. Everybody needs downtime to function normally. That includes video games.

The bolded parts of your quote show the disconnect. You can't have it both ways.

No completing your research faster doesn't save you time in the context in which you present it. If you had to sit there at your computer and watch as your character learned the trait then yes it would save time. As it is now you get the weapon/armor you want to research you click a button and your part in the process is done. How long you then wait doesn't matter as you can do other things. When it is all said and done there is no advantage between learning a trait in five hours or learning it in six. You both get to make the same thing.

How come there is no advantage? In the mean time, player who paid to have a trait researched faster has the trait available, while player who did not pay has not, and the former apparently saw some advantage in it, otherwise he would not have paid.
The fact that it does not save time only makes it P2W in the most strict sense, because the latter can not make up for not paying by throwing more time on it.

Galwylin

Avius wrote: »

@Galwylin
I don't agree with you at 100%.
If I remeber correctly P2W was defined as unplayable or unfun to play for players who don't buy items etc. at cash shop, where buying advantages are nearly mandatory to play. Opposite to that was cash shop with only cosmetic changes, which leaves gameplay unchanged.
ESO made crown store not to impact main "activity" which is PvP and PvE, so every player can compete with others in PvP and PvE, regardless of spent money in cash shop.

I first encountered the term in a PvE game. As I understood it, you could pay to by pass design. I think you're speaking of some extreme example because nothing is mandatory to a paying customer. The question for me, if I can pay to bypass design then why is it designed that way. If its designed that way for me to pay, then that pay to win. I get to the other side of whatever it is I'm wanting to achieve by paying. That could be research to killing players.

Not all p2w is bad inherently. In free games, money has to be made and we're more willing to pay to bypass bad design or time consumption because I would guess we all think we can "overcome" the disadvantage. Perceived or not. If I can play and that puts my research even further behind, a skip might be welcomed. I don't care if players use a scroll to gain AP faster.

But anyone would be a fool to think p2w wouldn't be shouted if you threaten to nerf classes to the ground while offering a new class that is overpowered to them,

STEVIL

ookami007 wrote: »

Pay 2 Win in the case of MMOs is simply this...

When you have to pay money to obtain some special advantage - a class, a skill, etc. - that you cannot otherwise get in game, but is required to have in order to do some content, then that is pay 2 win.

When I say "required to have in order to do some content", I mean... end game content guilds/groups will not allow you to join them unless you have said thing.

So whether or not something is P2W is judged by how players react to something and there is no P2W before end game?

SanTii.92

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

Warden

Not really though, because it doesn't provide a sense of accomplishment by rolling one any more than it undermines someone rolling any other character, so it is more "different" then it is "winning."

Whether the class is designed to be OP compared to all others remains to be seem but I kinda doubt it.

Based on what's happened to the Templar it seem P2W to me

Except it isn't. It's mediocre at best.