PvE discussion: Why do so many prefer to be Damage Dealers?

GallantGuardian · April 2017

Probably already been said but its easier to hide in an instance if you are a bad dd

subtlezeroub17_ESO · April 2017

Some of you guys might hate me for saying this but...one of the things they can do to make people want to tank more is for more options on threat and aggro. There's so many mechanics that could be introduced if the aggro mechanics in this game were more polished. That also means including an AoE threat skill (if even just as an ult).

Now, I have far more experience with healing so I can say without a doubt, there's something that needs to be done about each class having an identity as a healer. Currently, we have one "real" healer which is the Templar and in the future we'll have the Wardens.

Both Wardens and Templars currently have a certain niche to fulfill:

*Wardens are HoT + Buff healers focused on enhancing the stats of allies while offering heavy HoTs and mobility.

*Templars are both single target + AoE burst healers and while they might kick and scream now, they are the BEST and probably will remain the best at cleansing negative effects off the team. (and should always have that shtick)

but what about Dragon Knights, Night blades and Sorcerers?

Dragon knights to me have always leaned towards a shield + damage reduction type healer and there's plenty of ways they could take them with that. They already have a AoE shield spell and an ultimate shield spell. ZoS needs to expand on that and really make people "want" to be dragon knight healers.

Night blades have a vampiric flavor to them. What about making NB healers more DPS->Heals focused? Maybe offering unique DPS buffs. (I'll go back to unique buffs later on).

Sorcerers to me have all these pets, including the Matriarch, but their interaction with them leaves much to be desired. A healer Sorc could have a summoner vibe with her pets with a mix of short term defense buffs.

Unique buffs: If ZoS really wants to make each and every healer viable, it's time to bring in unique buffs that no other class can provide. It is going to be a balance nightmare but tbh, I think that's really the best thing to do to keep things fresh and gives people a reason to not just want to be Templars or Wardens. WoW used to have that until they caved in and did the whole, "bring the player, not the class" BS that homogenized and standardized all classes. But back before they did that, there was a reason why someone would want to be a certain class instead of all classes generally being able to do the same things.

Honestly, this is all just my 2 gold and I doubt anyone on the ZoS team will see and/or care about anything I wrote. Anything I said would have to make them do a partial redesign of the game, which would cost too much money. A guy can dream though, right?

DanaDark · April 2017

Phatmattfu wrote: »

Tanking leaves a lot to be desired in this game.

Block and single target taunt. A few tricks here and there but kinda meh.

Haven't done the trials, so can't comment on that.

I have found it to be somewhat refreshing.

The build in limitations to tanking make it super easy for me to tell who is good and who is bad. It also allows me to pick up some extra non-tank skills I like, such as some damage or some healing

But, I don't play a DK tank, I am a Templar. So, mileage can vary I am sure.

DDemon · April 2017

I have characters that are specced as full tank, healer and DPS. And yes, you are right that tanks and healers get a faster group in the queue.

However, more often than not when I go in a a tank or a healer, the dungeon run that is supposed to be simple and quick, will take FOREVER. This due to people queuing up as DD that, well, aren't proficient in dealing enough damage. (People using sword/board or a bow/staff and simply light or heavy attacking.)

During the week I do not have the time to spend hours in a dungeon. So, I simply queue as a DD, or run it on normal solo to get just a single key for a pledge.

I don't mind spending time helping people improve their DPS, but more often than not they do not wish to hear and, and will react hostile.

EmEm_Oh · April 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Most damage dealers are bad. Most don't know their rotations or anything at all, they just think that because they have Force Pulse and Frags, or Jesus Beam and Jabs on their bar, they are a DD.

But yeah, its apparently more fun to deal damage than to tank or support you team mates... Little do they know... DPS is a group effort that is made possible by support from (guess what) Healers and Tanks, and a huge amount of practice and progression from the DPS himself/herself.

I agree with this. A lot depends on the group's communication as well. Each group has a way of delivering damage. I wish there were more support groups out there for people who sign up for dungeons or ESO would tactfully "point" new players in that direction to those who can teach.

Healers are really necessary. I even have a few skill points on my sorc, just to have it in case my group falls short. It's happened only a few times.

Also, I have much to learn as well. It's a never-ending learning process. But I will say, communication is absolutely necessary BEFORE the group initiates their first battle in a dungeon.

And if you're experienced, and you don't communicate to others...you're just as guilty. On a rare occasion, I had somebody call me out and complain about not supporting his toon. It was the most painful dungeon experience I have ever had--and I was embarrassed for the other players who were giving him "???". The person never communicated to me what they wanted. I was just supposed to immaculately know what they were thinking.

This kind of complaining and attacking other players most certainly makes others avoid the dungeon experience.

And it's also ok to let the group know your weaknesses, or what you can only do. If you have a guy who thinks they are the next Dungeon Jesus, then they should be able to compensate for you if they're so good and shouldn't be complaining. My guess...they aren't and resort to complaining and blaming. And they've apparently put more Skill Points into that line than anything else...

I've rolled with many low level players and I NEVER talk down to them. In fact, I find it a challenge to compensate for them, as it develops my own skills more. I give what advice I can, and you know...if we cannot finish the dungeon...so what. It's a game. We can do it again, and that's exactly what I tell other players if we just can't get enough abilities together to fight a dungeon boss.

I'm certainly not the best player, and I always ask for help when I need it. Even CP600 players need help and advice...like me.

OrphanHelgen · April 2017

I started as tank, but was actually little room for me, since I had friends who also did tanking. In dungeons, 25% of the group is a tank and in trials before offtank meta, less then 10% could be a tank, which is why I personally rolled to DD.

On my friend list and around in the community, I'm surprised how many are healers actually. So saying that everyone are DD, might be correct around some situations, but not as I personally have experienced it.

I still think there is lack of tanks, specially since offtank meta are heavily focused on. I think one way to solve it, is what they are doing now with double bank space. I had to actually delete alot of heal and tank sets because of no space in bank, and yes I have bank alts as well. Another way to make more tanks available in the game, is more skill points. Yes I said it

With above 300 skill points on my main, there is no room to have everything you need. I have barely any of the passives for thief's guild and dark brotherhood, and I don't have the research reduce timer. I have only needed skills in class and weapons, and still I have used all of them. With more skill points, you could have skills and passives unlocked in 1h and shield without having to respec from dd to tank.

3rd suggestion is to have champion point respec setup ready, where you already have premade setup so you don't have to memorize or write down different setups. Also, 3k each respec isn't much, but I still think it could be free respec.

This is the points where the chances of me personal doing tanking, would increase

Zyrudin · April 2017

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

Some of you guys might hate me for saying this but...one of the things they can do to make people want to tank more is for more options on threat and aggro. There's so many mechanics that could be introduced if the aggro mechanics in this game were more polished. That also means including an AoE threat skill (if even just as an ult).

Now, I have far more experience with healing so I can say without a doubt, there's something that needs to be done about each class having an identity as a healer. Currently, we have one "real" healer which is the Templar and in the future we'll have the Wardens.

Both Wardens and Templars currently have a certain niche to fulfill:

*Wardens are HoT + Buff healers focused on enhancing the stats of allies while offering heavy HoTs and mobility.

*Templars are both single target + AoE burst healers and while they might kick and scream now, they are the BEST and probably will remain the best at cleansing negative effects off the team. (and should always have that shtick)

but what about Dragon Knights, Night blades and Sorcerers?

Dragon knights to me have always leaned towards a shield + damage reduction type healer and there's plenty of ways they could take them with that. They already have a AoE shield spell and an ultimate shield spell. ZoS needs to expand on that and really make people "want" to be dragon knight healers.

Night blades have a vampiric flavor to them. What about making NB healers more DPS->Heals focused? Maybe offering unique DPS buffs. (I'll go back to unique buffs later on).

Sorcerers to me have all these pets, including the Matriarch, but their interaction with them leaves much to be desired. A healer Sorc could have a summoner vibe with her pets with a mix of short term defense buffs.

Unique buffs: If ZoS really wants to make each and every healer viable, it's time to bring in unique buffs that no other class can provide. It is going to be a balance nightmare but tbh, I think that's really the best thing to do to keep things fresh and gives people a reason to not just want to be Templars or Wardens. WoW used to have that until they caved in and did the whole, "bring the player, not the class" BS that homogenized and standardized all classes. But back before they did that, there was a reason why someone would want to be a certain class instead of all classes generally being able to do the same things.

Honestly, this is all just my 2 gold and I doubt anyone on the ZoS team will see and/or care about anything I wrote. Anything I said would have to make them do a partial redesign of the game, which would cost too much money. A guy can dream though, right?

Thanks for your insights!

Do note that a well positioned AoE ability first strike from the Tank is a free aggro pull for almost everyone, but a pumped DD may not respect that and pull himself with a starter. I do agree that there could be more ability options, though.

Blackshark · April 2017

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

The backlash tanks get can be even worse if DD don't feel like they are moving fast enough, or if they aren't keeping aggro enough. Even when most of the time DD will just run and start blasting stuff which in this game with no AoE taunts makes it really hard on the tank.

This is why, for PUG groups, I use Shielded Assault and Choking Talons to initiate with large trash mobs. I beat the DD to the punch and lock down the mob for the duration of their AOE.

samueltannerb14_ESO · April 2017

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I can't speak for tanks but my magpie healer kills just fine. Yes, she takes longer but the same healing that can keep others alive works on her quite well. I admit that there is much safety in killing very fast. There is also much safety in killing slower but with a potent multilayered self-healing ability while being well buffed and keeping your foes debuffed.

All I'm saying is that my healer was a healer by level 5 and has never had any problem leveling up as such.

This is me. I don't care about high numbers or time. What I care about is getting the job done. I find healing to be the most enjoyable part of almost any game.

In solo content I look to use cc, and back it up with with DOT damage and HOT heals. The flaw in thinking is that high DPS equates effectiveness, but it's really just a number.

max_only · April 2017

I only play tank or healer.

1) it's pass or fail. "Doing a lot of damage" is a number range where as "keeping people alive" is a yes or no.

2) I like when my character just soaks up the hits while blocking, makes me feel powerful like stopping a speeding train with just my strength! Also I always pick the smallest character model to be a tank so the "secretly a badass" trope is satisfied. On the other hand, Yes it takes me forever to kill quest objectives.

3) I play my healer to learn the mechanics. Also I'm always needed. Some dds can throw on some heavy armor, spend one skill point and pretend to tank. It's much harder to have dedicated a whole character (two bars worth of skills support skills, max restro) to healing and support.

Chairo_Kuma · April 2017

It's due to the fact that tanking and healing are jobs that require taking on responsability for the group. This has always been an issue in mmo's. Also a lot of people don't like being told off by DPS for wipes. So in conclusion it tends to be intimidating to play those roles.

bguile · April 2017

I started out in this game as tank, but really didn't know what I was doing, and really didn't like the pressure.

Switched over to a dps and found dungeons to much more enjoyable. It was a good way to learn the mechanics of the game and of each dungeon without feeling like if you make one mistake then the whole group wipes.

Since then I switched back to tanking, now that I am more comfortable with most of the dungeons.

alexkdd99 · April 2017

People think it's easier, or they think healing/ taking would be to hard or complicated. A good dps that has good survivability can carry people through content. A good tank or healer not so much, still possible for some content but will be much slower.

Dps seems to be more enjoyable for the majority of the gaming population. It has been like this in most mmos I've played.

I enjoy playing healer until I get stuck with a team that doesn't have enough dps to beat whatever we are attempting. Then it gets really frustrating because as a healer there is only so much you can do about dps. Knowing if I would of been on my dps we would of been fine.

Alot of the dps that think they are good really aren't that great. They are just doing incredibly easy content.

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2017

Just an added thought which I do think is a part of a lot of people's assessment to play DD. DD's can plow through story content faster. DD's can farm for loot and materials faster. The DD role is fairly straight forward and does not require you to look at everyone's health bars with as great a level of scrutiny (at least seemingly). I would argue on this last point it is a bit lazy often times to be unaware that your team mates are alive or not, and often leads to a bad experience in a dungeon when you have DD"s who wait until all of their team mates are dead to decide it might be a good idea to start Rezzing folks.

I personally prefer Tanking overall because it allows me to set the pace of the battle, and arrange the battle. It forces me to juggle my resources and to be aware of my surroundings and my fellow team mates. You save your team as a tank by bashing things which suits my style a bit better: You get to be a warrior but you're still saving lives by drawing the attention of the enemies. I love how it also means you get to run headlong into battle, sometimes Leeroy Jenkins style which is always worth a lot of laughs. The reality is though that games need DD more than Tanks and Healers. A dungeon group only wants one tank and one healer. Raid groups are likewise predominately DD's because that is needed. The Tank and the Healer are niche roles perhaps in part because few players want to play them, but also because more damage is needed than support on a team.

DeadlyPhoenix · April 2017

Personally I run DPS primarily because I am a solo player mostly and being a tank or healer for solo content wouldn't be the widest decision.

I queue on my magsorc dps main as a tank for any non DLC vet dungeons but I run a taunt as well. So essentially I'm doing what the tank does, because I know mechanics I can avoid 90% of them and I'm keeping aggro. All while pushing 20-30k+ dps, depending on fight and group.

I do have a templar I switch between healing and tanking though with sets for both. He is max level and has most skill points and undaunted 9, but isn't my true main.

Anyway back on topic, I main a DPS not to be a glory hog, but simply because what I like to do it is much more practical.

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2017

Sakiri wrote: »

My favorite was a couple years ago when people were whining about how much damage I was doing until I pointed out there were five people below me and I'm one of the healers.

I actually got kicked from a pug once because I wasn't pulling any damage. I was healing. Tank whispered me after the kick... he ran in, started the event and then left. lol

Wow that is awful. I've been on some dungeon runs with a friend who was running a parser. It has happened more than once that my tank was doing more damage than both of the DD's on our team. I have no idea what those guys were doing but it was clear they were just flailing. Considering how I was aggroing just about everything that came down the pike it still amazes me that my damage has outdone pairs of DD"s on more than one occasion.

There is another annoying behavior I've run into that I'd like to point out. The damage dealer who has pierce armor slotted. I understand being a tank and realizing that you're in a group and need to swap to DPS. What frustrates me is the people who are built to DPS but are slotting taunts on their bar on a dungeon group. I can't state how annoying it is to have to keep retaunting things from a guy who is squishy as hell and is causing the Healer to gasp for breath just to keep him alive.

I really can't stand joining random groups for this reason. You deal with having to teach people all these things, and then you get to the end of the mission about ready to turn it in only to discover that everyone leaves the group and you're getting punted out (while your inventory was open to discuss what gear people wanted to trade as the npc's are chattering). You might ask why an experienced player is clearing these old undaunted quests. Its quite simple really, I have more than one character and the new guys need to pick up this content at times. This is a developer issue though and I really wish they'd get rid of this wonderful feature. It actually hurts the new player more than anyone because they're getting punted out of missions that were hard won for them, and not getting the rewards they deserve. I'm not saying it doesn't annoy me but I've got to imagine it is even more annoying for the new guy.

Hazethemadman · April 2017

Well I usually run dps because I spend most of my time doing solo PvE content.

Would play in groups more, but you know how that group finder can be. Rather just skip the trouble and work content out myself.

Insandros · April 2017

Zyrudin wrote: »

Now, I know that several group content mechanics can be bypassed with high enough DPS and that other mechanics include a DPS check. However, Damage Dealers rely more heavily on proper Tanking than most of them would like to admit, to lead the enemies into their AoE's, to turn them away from their position to save them dodge time, etc. They also rely on competent Healers to keep them buffed and with enough HOT's for them to focus on one task. So why so few Tanks and Healers?

My assertion about the numbers comes from Vet Group Finder queues, where with a Tank or a Healer I immediately pick up a group, while it takes ages with a DD.

My opinion is that "everyone" wants to be the hero that slays the "dragon", to be in the spotlight - probably a reflection of the times - and so it may be in fashion to build for DPS (even if not competently) instead of opting for one of the support roles of Tank or Healer.

I would like to hear other opinions on the matter.

I think it alays been a matter in MMOS, Being on the top DPS charts, As you say, everyone wants to be the hero. I'm one of the few thays has 2 pure DPS toon, and 1 dedicated tank and 1 dedicated healer, why? Because i hate hybrids or what's the point of having 10 toons that all gameplay looks alike, so when i wanna heal, i play my healer, keep people alive, buffed, managing their ressources up. So when i tank, i wanna be the beast that gets hits, i don'T care having low dps, my friends does the jobs..What can i say, making the term group or party come alive, not being some selfish guy, you know, like does DPSing fenzy that care so muhc about their dps, they don't even take time to res others or the healer..... why res someone, the DPS will drop.

That's why i can't wait to Morrowind, people cry about it, but finaly, we might see less annoying Templars in pugs going in, rushing all ahead of tank and pulling everything....

I once got told in a pug « Hey, wanna start DPSing, i don'T wanna be here 45 minutes » i looked down at my Combat MEtrics, seend i was doing 25% total damage, all that being all healing, gear and Champion Points.... i then replied to him « yeah sure » then quited group and told him « You know man, you'Re not paying my ESO +, i do, so don't tell me how to play my toons, i have DPSs, this one ishealing, and when i play it, is to heal, not DPS... and BTW, don'T blame me for the low DPS, since i'm all healing geared and CP specs and i'm doing 25% of all dmage simply with healing skills that deals some dmg at the same time, ressources retrun skill that does some dmg and heavy attack to get more healing done from healing staff passives and droping wall of elements which is my only pure dps.... so i would actualy blame the 2 DPS being bad, inclusing yourself »

As a pure healer, if i do more than 8-10% dmg, there a problem, over 25% huge problem.... I'm old fashonned, but any MMO i play, i have healers, tanks and damage dealers, to enjoy each roles...

peeslingerb14_ESO · April 2017

Many reasons...

Tanks/healers are pointless outside of group combat
Most of the content doesn't require a tank/healer

I blame most of this mentality on ZOS though. vMA is the perfect example. Which is the core of all of the problems in this game right now. A dungeon that requires you to burst it down. Followed by players learning how to defeat it. Followed by DD being completely catered to since release.

Why play a tank/healer when you get hit by the nerf bat the hardest? But mostly it's utility. Most things can be done by DD faster.

Wifeaggro13 · April 2017

Zyrudin wrote: »

Now, I know that several group content mechanics can be bypassed with high enough DPS and that other mechanics include a DPS check. However, Damage Dealers rely more heavily on proper Tanking than most of them would like to admit, to lead the enemies into their AoE's, to turn them away from their position to save them dodge time, etc. They also rely on competent Healers to keep them buffed and with enough HOT's for them to focus on one task. So why so few Tanks and Healers?

My assertion about the numbers comes from Vet Group Finder queues, where with a Tank or a Healer I immediately pick up a group, while it takes ages with a DD.

My opinion is that "everyone" wants to be the hero that slays the "dragon", to be in the spotlight - probably a reflection of the times - and so it may be in fashion to build for DPS (even if not competently) instead of opting for one of the support roles of Tank or Healer.

I would like to hear other opinions on the matter.

Because tank and healers are by far the least needed classes and have a severe advantage in open world questing. Tanking is not needed but fora few high end game instances , Trial and a few Vr dungeon bosses. as far as trials you only need 2 heals at most and one tank. its not the player its the crappy game design that created this.

max_only · April 2017

Brockahly wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

Brockahly wrote: »

I actually prefer a support role as a healer or a tank, in fact I played a dk tank for a long time before I made my first DD, and that was a mag sorc that I used mainly in PVP. I eventually made a stam sorc and used that, mainly because as a tank it was so very frustrating tanking a boss for more than 15 minutes because the DD simply didn't have enough DPS to burn down the boss or deal with the adds. I went on to make another magicka Templar DD which I maxed and then left to make an argonian Templar healer which I actually used more than the Templar DD. So to answer your question I chose to DPS, because I get sick and tired of other not having enough DPS whilst I'm in a support role.

Yes, a lot of Damage Dealers are average but behave as if they are supreme and carry the groups they're in. They show no consideration for their group members nor for other roles. I have been finding that a lot of Damage Dealers are too shortsighted and narrow-minded about group tactics that are actually basic and fairly obvious.

I get it that a good chunk of Damage Dealers, like yourself, saw that problem and decided to save yourself the grief by becoming a Damage Dealer yourself. However, in terms of numbers, I think it only worsens the situation. A shift in mindset, tutorials or the like, may be required, perhaps?

I'm not going to lecture a dps and tell him how to do his job because it really isn't difficult, get a good rotation, don't stand in red circles, KILL the boss and the one thing few dps realise is IF SOMEONE DIES YOU PICK THEM UP, not the person holding the boss off you, or the person keeping you alive.

Blamo!
Qft

This is my only real pet peeve. As the tank, I'm the last one alive because if I stop blocking to pick up the first red circle bather, we all die. DPS NEEDS TO REZ EACH OTHER AND TO HELP SHAVE THE ADDS OFF THE HEALER.

I don't have an AOE taunt so I have to choose the most important mobs in the room. If I'm dancing with them, and a bunch of trash targets the healer, why would I drag the boss and his friends over to the healer to grab them? Why would I stop focusing on the mechanics to range taunt something that I can't even target in all that mess? Dps needs to keep an eye on healer health too. As the healer, I can't spam heals AND damage. If you are bathing in red and not waiting for the tick of my AOE heals, then I have to spam heals. If I crit my heals I get trash attention. Dps, come get this trash off me lol.

Lynx7386 · April 2017

It's about responsibility. A damage dealer is only responsible for himself. A tank is responsible for himself, the healer, and mob positioning and control. Healers are responsible for the tank and dps. Nobody likes responsibility.

Personally, I prefer tanking over any other role, and healing as a close second. The dps players may get to brag about their 30k damage and how quick they can kill, but I can brag about being nigh-immortal and being able to Solo things they can't.

Insandros · April 2017

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Because tank and healers are by far the least needed classes and have a severe advantage in open world questing. Tanking is not needed but fora few high end game instances , Trial and a few Vr dungeon bosses. as far as trials you only need 2 heals at most and one tank. its not the player its the crappy game design that created this.

Dude don't say that.. you'll collect hates from people crying about Morrowind and those selfish people that gets in pugs and run all bu themselves..until june 6

GuinevereHelios · April 2017

I'm a very casual player so I'm just saying why I play as a dd (if any role at all).

There's only one healer in a group and one tank meaning I feel it's less pressure on me to do a certain job because there is two dds! Of course, I don't do dungeons with random people with these thoughts because I'm certain I'd be useless so I either do things with friends or on my own so random good players aren't carrying me along

Stamden · April 2017

Because if I am a tank or healer, I am basically locked out of doing this solo. From VMA to simply clearing a delve, it's just way more convenient on a DPS.

Hallothiel · April 2017

Agree with a lot of what has been said. Also made me think of previous threads discussing roles.

If, like me, this is your first MMO, & all you have played before are solo rpgs, then you are going to have NO idea about the different roles for dungeons as all you have played before is as a dd. Progress in the game is through damage dealing. There is no real other way.

But then dungeons expect you to be one of these roles (I know it's historic etc but why?) and most have no idea about healing / tanking so they dd. And there is nothing in the game to explain these roles so most will go with what they know.

Yes, joining a guild may be offered as a solution but again, if you have only played rpgs before, you are not used to them & how they work.

For myself I have read & learnt about things as that's my way, but I still don't do dungeons as have no idea what I am doing. My mage does heal in pvp which is a good way to learn, but not sure how to test my proposed tank!