PvE discussion: Why do so many prefer to be Damage Dealers?

Zyrudin · April 2017

Now, I know that several group content mechanics can be bypassed with high enough DPS and that other mechanics include a DPS check. However, Damage Dealers rely more heavily on proper Tanking than most of them would like to admit, to lead the enemies into their AoE's, to turn them away from their position to save them dodge time, etc. They also rely on competent Healers to keep them buffed and with enough HOT's for them to focus on one task. So why so few Tanks and Healers?

My assertion about the numbers comes from Vet Group Finder queues, where with a Tank or a Healer I immediately pick up a group, while it takes ages with a DD.

My opinion is that "everyone" wants to be the hero that slays the "dragon", to be in the spotlight - probably a reflection of the times - and so it may be in fashion to build for DPS (even if not competently) instead of opting for one of the support roles of Tank or Healer.

I would like to hear other opinions on the matter.

Izaki · April 2017

Most damage dealers are bad. Most don't know their rotations or anything at all, they just think that because they have Force Pulse and Frags, or Jesus Beam and Jabs on their bar, they are a DD.

But yeah, its apparently more fun to deal damage than to tank or support you team mates... Little do they know... DPS is a group effort that is made possible by support from (guess what) Healers and Tanks, and a huge amount of practice and progression from the DPS himself/herself.

Dragonking06 · April 2017

The way I see it is, Tanking and Healing both come with a lot of responsibilities. People this day and age don't seem to like that very much. xD

Personally I enjoy Tanking. This is the first MMO that has ever happened to me.

Zyrudin · April 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Most damage dealers are bad. Most don't know their rotations or anything at all, they just think that because they have Force Pulse and Frags, or Jesus Beam and Jabs on their bar, they are a DD.

But yeah, its apparently more fun to deal damage than to tank or support you team mates... Little do they know... DPS is a group effort that is made possible by support from (guess what) Healers and Tanks, and a huge amount of practice and progression from the DPS himself/herself.

Indeed. Most just run ahead because they think they don't need Tanks or Healers, but Tanks or Healers need them. Usually those die quickly.

Zyrudin · April 2017

Dragonking06 wrote: »

The way I see it is, Tanking and Healing both come with a lot of responsibilities. People this day and age don't seem to like that very much. xD

Personally I enjoy Tanking. This is the first MMO that has ever happened to me.

Interesting that comment on responsibility. I think you are on to something there, yes.

Turelus · April 2017

I used to tank on my Nightblade but switched to DD.

I do a lot of solo stuff and I was tired of having to have two specs at once or just having average damage to quest with rather than good damage.

Also I generally dislike tanking for PUG's because I know one set of tactics they know another and no one ever communicates which we're going to do before I go in. DD is easier, just stand back and throw damage in a PUG.

zaria · April 2017

Also DD is the default, its that you do then grinding or questing.
You can train DD for dungeons using the dummy.
Tanking and healing require you to get special gear and train other skills just for dungeons.
Hard to train for outside of dungeons.

Greydir · April 2017

It is also quite Simple to find a Stable group for Dungeons with a Tank / Healer, that will run the Dungeons with you without using the Groupfinder. So most Tanks/Healers will not have the need to rely on a Tool which is unfortunatly in a broken state most of the time.

The other thing why it is easy for a Tank / Healer to find a stable group is trust. You will be much more willing to go with a Tank/Healer you know than with one you dont because the gamble to run with an unknown tank / healer is much bigger than running with an unknown DD

SodanTok · April 2017

At least up to veteran dungeons, DD can do everything. So the better you are or at least think you are, the least you are affected by bad teammates.
Support classes are way more punished by having bad DD than the other way.

Mordenkainen · April 2017

This isn't limited to ESO actually. It's a thing in every MMORPG as far as I am aware of.

Personally I think it stems from dealing damage and killing enemies in a game being the prime concept or forwarding ones own progress. In other words, It's habit.

Keep in mind back then quests were narrative instead of reward-generators and the actual exp-points and/or loot came from killing something most of the time.

As for today, one of the most early concepts players will meet in almost any MMORPG that has quests is "Go to place A and kill 10 of NPC B".

Vildebill · April 2017

Probably because most players don't play competitive and just want to complete stuff without really doing anything or having any responsibility.

I don't PUG so often and almost never use Group Tool, but when I i do I mostly use a DD because when you join as tank or healer and the two DD's manage to put out 15k DPS together you will be in the dungeon all day.

Zyrudin · April 2017

Greydir wrote: »

It is also quite Simple to find a Stable group for Dungeons with a Tank / Healer, that will run the Dungeons with you without using the Groupfinder. So most Tanks/Healers will not have the need to rely on a Tool which is unfortunatly in a broken state most of the time.

The other thing why it is easy for a Tank / Healer to find a stable group is trust. You will be much more willing to go with a Tank/Healer you know than with one you dont because the gamble to run with an unknown tank / healer is much bigger than running with an unknown DD

I understand, but what is your opinion on why so many prefer to build for Damage instead one of the other two?
Regardless of the method, being fewer in number makes Tanks and Healers more precious in group finding, of course.

Danikat · April 2017

I suspect it's at least partially down to familiarity.

Most people will start off playing mostly in open-world PvE and unless they start with a group of friends and only ever play together they're going to be solo at least part of the time. And to play solo you have to be able to deal damage. I suppose you could stand in front of a boss healing yourself and dodging the big attacks until someone else shows up to kill it for you but that's going to be pretty boring.

That means everyone will know at least the basics of playing a damage dealer, they'll have used and trained up those skills and they'll probably have the equipment for it (or know what equipment they need). So the easy thing to do is to stick with the role you already know and are prepared for, instead of starting over with a new one just because someone else wants to be the damage dealer - why should you change your whole character? Why don't they change if they think it's important to have a tank or healer?

Sakiri · April 2017

Dragonking06 wrote: »

The way I see it is, Tanking and Healing both come with a lot of responsibilities. People this day and age don't seem to like that very much. xD

Personally I enjoy Tanking. This is the first MMO that has ever happened to me.

This.

On top of the jerks that like to whine about people not knowing the dungeons or bad tanks, or rush rush rush gogogogogogogogo and can't play worth a crap themselves...

No one wants to make tanks and healers, much less play them. You can thank jerks.

My warden will be a healer, but I likely won't do pugs. I have no room for "ur not 600 CP baddy" and kicks because I don't know mechanics.

Zyrudin · April 2017

zaria wrote: »

Also DD is the default, its that you do then grinding or questing.
You can train DD for dungeons using the dummy.
Tanking and healing require you to get special gear and train other skills just for dungeons.
Hard to train for outside of dungeons.

Quite so about the other skills to learn!
We had a discussion going about a few tutorial ideas to teach the roles some time ago.

Dragonking06 · April 2017

Greydir wrote: »

The other thing why it is easy for a Tank / Healer to find a stable group is trust. You will be much more willing to go with a Tank/Healer you know than with one you dont because the gamble to run with an unknown tank / healer is much bigger than running with an unknown DD

This, lol. I sometimes do PUG dungeons (to put myself to the test, albeit sometimes leading to my frustration) and over the last couple of days I've had people wanting to add me to their friends list, asking if they can do pledges with me in future.

Shad0wfire99 · April 2017

Players like to feel powerful. From a new player's perspective, healing and tanking definitely aren't that.

Bringer · April 2017

I dont preffer damage dealer. I preffer stamblade for thematic immersive reason. Ive played healers and it was more enjoyable gameplay, but i always go back to stamblade. Let me be a healer and ill gladly be a stamina healer.

In modern mmos DDs are inflated more than even in the past since almost everything is solo-oriented and as such you do it better and faster as a DPS. If it was a more group-oriented game then it would shift, but even back in the old days DPS were far more common than the other roles.

Dracane · April 2017

It's because, being a basic damage dealer is the easiest thing to do. It's simple and allows you to be kind of lazy and not care for anything.

Though I think being a good DD, is much harder than being a healer or tank. in fact, I think tanking is the easiest. I personally refuse being a DD, even though everyone wants me to do it. I don't like being forced to perform a perfect rotation and keep all my things up perfectly. I want to be lazy

Zyrudin · April 2017

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

At least up to veteran dungeons, DD can do everything. So the better you are or at least think you are, the least you are affected by bad teammates.
Support classes are way more punished by having bad DD than the other way.

They aim to be more independent, I get that.

Mordenkainen wrote: »

This isn't limited to ESO actually. It's a thing in every MMORPG as far as I am aware of.

Personally I think it stems from dealing damage and killing enemies in a game being the prime concept or forwarding ones own progress. In other words, It's habit.

Keep in mind back then quests were narrative instead of reward-generators and the actual exp-points and/or loot came from killing something most of the time.

As for today, one of the most early concepts players will meet in almost any MMORPG that has quests is "Go to place A and kill 10 of NPC B".

Right, there is nothing in the game questing mechanics that favours any support roles, actually. You're right there.

Lieblingsjunge · April 2017

I agree with what's being said. Responsbilities & the fact that a tank/Healer can't "Kill stuff to progress in-game"(Altho they can, but they then need a second set-up, whereas most "casual" DPS tend to go for just one set).

In ESO, you can get okay-y DPS by using crafted gear. But you can't craft e.g. Worm/SPC/Alkosh/Ebon etc. They need to be farmed, so obtaining support-sets are, in some cases(many?) harder than obtaining DPS-gear.
And I guess that some people think that DPS is the most important thing in a game. Being able to kill stuff is worth more than being able to heal/tank stuff.

Wrecking_Blow_Spam · April 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Most damage dealers are bad. Most don't know their rotations or anything at all, they just think that because they have Force Pulse and Frags, or Jesus Beam and Jabs on their bar, they are a DD

But yeah, its apparently more fun to deal damage than to tank or support you team mates... Little do they know... DPS is a group effort that is made possible by support from (guess what) Healers and Tanks, and a huge amount of practice and progression from the DPS himself/herself.

This so much.

Maybe it's a console thing but THERES SO MANY FAKE DPS, I 100% guarantee 90% of the DPS in group finder would struggle to do a self buffed 15k DPS on the test dummy.

I've not pugged for a month or more so maybe it's magically changed but I doubt it, the standard in dungeon finder is appalling. 25k (maintained) self buffed in group finder PUG would be like equivalent of gold dust.

It's gunna be even worse next patch so that'll be fun to watch.

Ive been in vet trails groups and I've seen first hand multiple 600cp stormproofs do DPS test purely self buffed, they barely scratch 20k and GLOATED.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO · April 2017

I actually preferred to play a tank. But the chances being a tank in trials is like 1/12 or less because the tank is always the same guy. And in addition its almost impossible doing vMSA as a tank. So trials forced me to switch to DPS.

Enslaved · April 2017

Damage dealers can kill much faster than tanks/healers, so any solo/overworld PvE is fast. In game where grinding for gear is kinda 60% to 90% of all time spent playing, being able to kill fast is what drives most of us to be DD chars. Also, if you farm materials, being stamina based DD is most rewarding, since you can move very fast, without even using skills but rapids. mSorc is close second, but not as lazy method as stamina builds.

PvP wise, ppl like to be rewarded for playing, and killing is best way to be rewarded - satisfied. Anything else is seen as "weak" by most of population, so not many choose to be ultra tanks or complete healbots.

I either tank in PvP/PvE or I go as semi ganker sDK/DD is PvE. I guess healing is not my thing since I am templar hater. Might change my mind about healing after Warden goes live.

Zyrudin · April 2017

Sakiri wrote: »

Dragonking06 wrote: »

The way I see it is, Tanking and Healing both come with a lot of responsibilities. People this day and age don't seem to like that very much. xD

Personally I enjoy Tanking. This is the first MMO that has ever happened to me.

This.

On top of the jerks that like to whine about people not knowing the dungeons or bad tanks, or rush rush rush gogogogogogogogo and can't play worth a crap themselves...

No one wants to make tanks and healers, much less play them. You can thank jerks.

My warden will be a healer, but I likely won't do pugs. I have no room for "ur not 600 CP baddy" and kicks because I don't know mechanics.

Agreed, but those rushed DD's (that are so often too frail) seem to be always competing even with their group members.

Responsibility can then be tossed around (as that other thread some time ago about the Tank that got scolded because he wasn't pulling enough DPS) because since it is Damage that kills monsters, they see themselves as the active arms of the group, mostly unaware that if the arms have no body attached, they are useless squirmy limbs on the ground. How much DPS can they pull dead?

timb16_ESO85 · April 2017

SInce most people play a combination of solo and group pve, I think the large amount of dps comes from people not being willing to sacrifice solo killing speed for being able to find a group quicker. I have tried both dps and tank, and while I like tanking in group dungeons, either only changing equipment and being a mediocre dps for solo play or paying a large sum of gold to reset chamion points (who needs block cost and mitigation for solo play) to be more effective. Furthermore, not having to rely on addons to change equipment and skills would be great.

Zyrudin · April 2017

Dragonking06 wrote: »

Greydir wrote: »

The other thing why it is easy for a Tank / Healer to find a stable group is trust. You will be much more willing to go with a Tank/Healer you know than with one you dont because the gamble to run with an unknown tank / healer is much bigger than running with an unknown DD

This, lol. I sometimes do PUG dungeons (to put myself to the test, albeit sometimes leading to my frustration) and over the last couple of days I've had people wanting to add me to their friends list, asking if they can do pledges with me in future.

Me too, man

Brockahly · April 2017

I actually prefer a support role as a healer or a tank, in fact I played a dk tank for a long time before I made my first DD, and that was a mag sorc that I used mainly in PVP. I eventually made a stam sorc and used that, mainly because as a tank it was so very frustrating tanking a boss for more than 15 minutes because the DD simply didn't have enough DPS to burn down the boss or deal with the adds. I went on to make another magicka Templar DD which I maxed and then left to make an argonian Templar healer which I actually used more than the Templar DD. So to answer your question I chose to DPS, because I get sick and tired of other not having enough DPS whilst I'm in a support role.

Sakiri · April 2017

My favorite was a couple years ago when people were whining about how much damage I was doing until I pointed out there were five people below me and I'm one of the healers.

I actually got kicked from a pug once because I wasn't pulling any damage. I was healing. Tank whispered me after the kick... he ran in, started the event and then left. lol

Arrchangell · April 2017

I was a solo guy, so i had to be DD, or fights would take too long. Did all the quests, in all alliances. But i do have a backup tank if we need one.

Zyrudin · April 2017

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I actually preferred to play a tank. But the chances being a tank in trials is like 1/12 or less because the tank is always the same guy. And in addition its almost impossible doing vMSA as a tank. So trials forced me to switch to DPS.

Important comment there as well. This means that you can be an ok DPS and still get a place in trials, while you would have to be an excellent Healer or Tank to get that one/two spots.