me_ming wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You nailed the problem ... but I fail to see how this leads to your conclusion.

The only reason to allow a templar in the group is the support abilities. If all other classes can do that too, there is no reason to allow groupplay with a templar at all, well maybe exept for sympathy.

Btw. I hope some ppl still remember, the only reason templar got the abilities to provide magika and stamina support was that all other classes gained access to healing skills without the need of waving a staff ... .

To the OP: well summarized, ty for the time and effort!

We all know that Templar will still be the best class for healing, numbers say so, actual PTS testing says so, all the complaints about "I made Templar because Templar #1 Healer now it isn't #1 Healer anymore" are just false fearmongering assumptions, complaining for the sake of complaining. Templars still have all the edges in the world when it comes to trial healing, Sorc/NB/DK healers aren't going to take Templar's place as the king of healing. They will only be able to join non-tryhard regular friendly trial runs (which they aren't allowed to do now).

Shard isn't "the only reason to allow a templar in the group is the support abilities", Shard is "the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in trials".

You want Templar to be the only class allowed to heal in trials? Fine, then remove Templar's DPS capability. Right now Templar DDs can still apply for trial runs, as their DPS is totally viable, not far behind sorc and way above nightblade.

Have u played a templar? You should give it a try sometime.

As a matter of fact, I do.

me_ming wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

So instead you want every healer (whatever class you are in) to suck. lol

Care to elaborate?

So instead you want every other class to suck at healing because now no one can restore resources, specifically stamina. I hope that's clear enough.

me_ming wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You nailed the problem ... but I fail to see how this leads to your conclusion.

The only reason to allow a templar in the group is the support abilities. If all other classes can do that too, there is no reason to allow groupplay with a templar at all, well maybe exept for sympathy.

Btw. I hope some ppl still remember, the only reason templar got the abilities to provide magika and stamina support was that all other classes gained access to healing skills without the need of waving a staff ... .

To the OP: well summarized, ty for the time and effort!

We all know that Templar will still be the best class for healing, numbers say so, actual PTS testing says so, all the complaints about "I made Templar because Templar #1 Healer now it isn't #1 Healer anymore" are just false fearmongering assumptions, complaining for the sake of complaining. Templars still have all the edges in the world when it comes to trial healing, Sorc/NB/DK healers aren't going to take Templar's place as the king of healing. They will only be able to join non-tryhard regular friendly trial runs (which they aren't allowed to do now).

Shard isn't "the only reason to allow a templar in the group is the support abilities", Shard is "the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in trials".

You want Templar to be the only class allowed to heal in trials? Fine, then remove Templar's DPS capability. Right now Templar DDs can still apply for trial runs, as their DPS is totally viable, not far behind sorc and way above nightblade.

Have u played a templar? You should give it a try sometime.

As a matter of fact, I do.

me_ming wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

So instead you want every healer (whatever class you are in) to suck. lol

Care to elaborate?

So instead you want every other class to suck at healing because now no one can restore resources, specifically stamina. I hope that's clear enough.

What? Where did I say that?

"on-Templar healers are not viable at harder content like vet trials, not because they are less effective (and they should be less effective than Templar healers), or that their heals are weaker (in fact their heals are weaker but that's not why they aren't viable), it's because they don't have the tool needed to do the job of a healer, which is feeding stamina to the group."

ring any bells?

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I have said this a lot, I don't want "any class to perform in any task just as good as any other class", I want Templar to be the best class in healing, do you even read what I have written????!??? I want all classes to be somewhat viable in any role at any kind of content, but I, in the life of me, have never said that non-Templar healers should be as good as Templar healers. Never. Non-Templar healers are not viable at harder content like vet trials, not because they are less effective (and they should be less effective than Templar healers), or that their heals are weaker (in fact their heals are weaker but that's not why they aren't viable), it's because they don't have the tool needed to do the job of a healer, which is feeding stamina to the group.

If an ability to feed stamina to the group should be something "unique" to the Templar class, then transfer Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash to DK class skill lines, and call them "DK's unique abilities". An ability to feed stamina to the group is the essential tool that a healer has to have, like how taunting and debuffing are jobs of a tank, if it's should be something only Templars have access to (thus removing non-Templar healers entirely from difficult content), then Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash should only available for DK, don't let other classes have access to those 2 abilities. Also, make Templar's DPS capability pathetic so they are also removed from difficult content like vet trials. Do you want the game to be that way?

Understand that the Restoring Light skill line was meant for heals and support. How else do you purpose should shards and repentance function? Also in this times in vet trials, how many do you think are still stamina users? The only role that needs stamina really is the tank. I barely run anyone in vtrials with a Stam-anything. Maybe one or two. But never more than that. The shards are even mainly used to proc Alkosh, not to restore stamina. If you want diversity, find ways for your NB/Sorc/DK healer to be more effective in vtrials. Don't change a particular class's skill, especially those that are unique to the class, or else why would you want to play a templar? Because of BoL? Lol.

So tell me how are you supposed to boost non-Templar healers' effectiveness without giving them an ability to restore stamina to the group, when tanks always need stamina support, and PvE stamina DDs might get buffed in the future? I am all ears.

Oh, and btw, I also want to see more stamina DDs in PvE.

me_ming wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

So instead you want every healer (whatever class you are in) to suck. lol

What irks me about your poorly assessed comments is that you think the Templar healer's defining skills should be removed because any other class does not have it. THAT in itself tells me that other classes aren't suppose to be defacto healers in trials and raids. What you haven't considered (and I am sure you can find this in many in the forum posts) that there are healer NBs and healer sorcs and healer DKs who have completed vtrials. That tells me one thing, your healer NB/sorc/DK is the problem. Not the class. Maybe these other healer NBs/Sorcs/DKs are more skilled, because heck they completed it. So why again are you saying that Templars should be nerf to the ground? Is it because so unskilled healers will have a better chance at raiding?

Another thing if other classes wants their shards, let me have my cloak or crystal frags as well. Because I sure want to be a stealthy templar without using invis pots.

PS

To OP:

Thank you for posting. I hope those other classes who wants to do vtrials and raid (PvP and PvE) understand why Templar healers are outraged by these changes. It's not because we don't want other classes to heal better than Templars, it's because there was no reason why ZoS should have nerfed the class other than the fact that they just want the Warden to be more viable than any other class. Again, I still believe people will buy Morrowind regardless of the nerfs.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

I run 2 templar mains. One stam the other mag.


My stamplar on live is capable of allowing a non templar healer in group bc i can repentance when its needed, shard, powerful vigor, and potl. Now repentance, shards, and major mending vigor are removed from my toolset for group viabiltiy.
So.
weve known that sorcs make better healers in pve due to magica cost reduction, negate being 10x more powerful then nova and more powerful heals due to surge.
A proper group with a dk tank pulling everything to the middle and rooting -with dds stacked on tank means bol never needed - Only combat prayer is needed to do the job on top of hots.
Which is what makes dks the best tanks and no need for templar healer. Bol is not needed in dungeons. And sorc matriarc heal outplays that on live NOW.
For some odd reason we - the playerbase/community - decided that bol was imperitive to be a healer, yet this has been outplayed by resto staff ward and twilghlight matriarch heal.

currently in live the only reason for a templar healer in group is that i have 2 hots. Rapid regen and 1 that also cleanses groupmates giving them resource return via undaunted passives. And that i can shards/blueballs/a repentance morph (either is awesome) and still put out an unbuffed 25kish dps in spc/twilight. Thats huge group synergy.
All this getting gutted including sets. Both are not easy to obtain

My stamplar with stamina return to the group on repentance helped the setup of a non templar healer. But now im screwed bc my dmg has always been -and is currently -subpar to other classes and now my group support is being removed from my skillset.

Ive never seen templar as THE healing class. Ive seen it as a SUPPORT class. In DCUO the mmo i played as eso came out (been mmoing since swg days) they had a class called "controller" he was to ur dmg stat pool like a healer is to ur hp pool. I saw templar like that.

But a support/dps templar has never been looked at it a positive light in the eso community. And these changes put the nail in the coffin for MY playstyle. Yanno, the concept they adverized when i baught the game pre beta.

I think we share a lot of the same perceptions and I'd like to add I played DCUO as well. (I really wish we could get weapon combos in ESO like we can get in DCUO). I really think Warden soaked up all the support bonus that Templar use to have, and Templar has lost all reason to exist more or less apart from his golden glow and theme.

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

@Joy_Division Still looking forward to your input

Check the PTS forum. Joy posted earlier today.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Necromancer sighted

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Necromancer sighted

I think most of us have given up any hope that the devs might actually value the thoughts of the templar community.

Side note: it's almost comical that the streak bug is getting fixed, while we have heard absolutely nothing on the luminous shards cc. At this point they should just revert the change to blazing spear.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler