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Morrowind In-Depth: The Death of MagPlars (PvE)

Ch4mpTW
Ch4mpTW
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So I decided to do a breakdown as to why MagPlars are dead once the Morrowind launches with the current changes set in motion, and try to reason with ZOS as to why their proposed changes must not go live. Rather than complain and do nothing as many Templar threads currently are, and just say how I feel things are bad... I broke it down for you all at ZOS HQ, and tried to thoroughly explain everything as best as possible.

Before I begin, I'll say this first and foremost. There appears to be a large misconception that Templars (magicka) have incredible sustain within a PvE environment. This is untrue. Whether it be solo'ing content, in a trial with 11 other people, or in a dungeon. Even handling content like VMA can be surprisingly challenging with a MagPlar, due to the amount of magicka that is spent to do high amounts of damage. More so sustained high damage. This is why players (including myself personally) fall back on crafts sets like Seducer for handling solo content. This is because of the strain that is applied when wearing BIS gear in solo situations. For proof of this, I'll provide my stats when wearing my gear for trials and gear for when I'm solo'ing.

5x Seduced, 4x Moondancer, 2x Grothdarr, 1x Maelstrom Resto
RV4vv9O.jpg
DiG4wTq.jpg

5x Burning Spellweave, 4x Moondancer, 2x Grothdarr, 1x Maelstrom Resto
Tr0Ubkh.jpg
rHuBXPE.jpg

As you can clearly see, there is a HUGE difference in magicka regeneration when going from Seducer to BSW. And even more so once BSW procs. However, I'm heavy pressed for resources with the later gear setup. It's hard to bang out rotations when you're hit for resources, and still downing pots on cooldown. And by the way, this is when minor magicka steal is active (which was hit from 400 to 300). As well. Even more so rough once I go DW on the back bar, as going Destro/Resto isn't advisable for doing group content as a damage dealer.

Plus you hit light armor. So I'm boned there as well. In those screen shots I'm wearing 5 light, 1 medium, and 1 heavy. So I'm getting the full effect of undaunted passive. And for the record, that's non-buffed for the most part. The pics were taken with CP150/CP160 blue food (health and magicka).

But, let's discuss skills and costs. With 100 points in cost reduction for magicka, and wearing Seducer, my Puncturing Sweeps cost me 1,736 magicka. Gold CP160 spell damage glyphs on gold Moondancer jewelry, by the way. Upon wearing BSW, my cost for my spammable jumps up to a 1,935 per sweep. And you want to hit sustain for magicka users? How many sweeps am I going to get out, before not only am I not doing damage but die? And on the note of vitality and life and death, you took away Major Mending which was gotten in the Sacred Ground passive. Lol. WTF is Channeled Focus going going to do for me in conjunction with Minor Mending, all the while my sustain is out of the window? Do you all at ZOS HQ genuinely believe that recovering 120 magicka every 0.5 seconds will be enough to save me on my own? Let alone in a group with healers struggling to assist with sustain.

And let's talk about that. Your shard changes as they are now are terrible, but you went on ahead and further ruined them. The amount restored is based on character level instead of max resource? Seriously? AND you put a shared cooldown on it with Necrotic Orb? So what I'm supposed to do in VMoL when things are tuning me up, and I'm supposed to beat on Sun-Eaters in that 1st gauntlet before the twins while I'm struggling to manage my resources? Even if 1 of the healers are wearing Worm's Raiment. I'm already activated 1 of the orbs, and healers are trying to throw spare shards for people. I guess I'm S.O.L. Because those bubbles provided by Harness Magicka definitely won't be there to save me sustain-wise. And that costs a LOT as well. As does Inner Light. Or did you all forget that players have to self-buff still, and shield up to avoid death?

But anyway. Back into Templar skills. As is Eclipse was trash, and forever will be trash. Damn near no one used it, but rather give a player an incentive to use it — you made it somehow even less attractive. LOL! You made the skill last 3.5secs. from 6secs., as gave the enemy a CC-immunity upon the skill's effect ending. Who's mans was at the round table with this change, and thought that an already ass skill needed a nerf? Lmao. :D Fire that man. Do so with the quickness, because he got you all's priorities and things all jammed up. That trash definitely won't be on Templar's bars. Thanks for reinforcing MagPlar's choice on not using that skill further. Much appreciated.

Oh, and I almost forgot. Repentance. The 1 skill outside of BoL and shards that was a bone Templars could throw to the group, you went and hit. So now if stamina characters choose to run with the pack, they're out of luck when expecting a resource refill for having done that hard work at slaying mobs. Why and how did you come to find that was a needed change?

So let's put this into proper perspective. You're in Vet Sanctum for example, and after dealing with 1 of those huge pulls. You can't pop repentance to help stam-users a get their resources in check. Nope. They're just screwed. And since you went on ahead and put shards with a shared cooldown from necrotic orb, if they activated a healing orb...? They can't grab the shard I just threw them for 20-something seconds. Lol. Potions have a 45 second cooldown, and most effects last for 36.6secs. (if crafted). A tad bit longer if you have the alchemy passive. And you believe that's enough to sustain? C'mon now.

ZOS... I don't know your vision. And even after giving MagPlars stomp after stomp, still you try to move them off the meta block. You still have the nerve to not only kill them, but then vaporize their ashes. And to add insult to injury, you turn around and give a new class which you have to pay to have (Wardens) Major Mending that you literally ripped away from a class based around healing. Took the old Breath of Life, and ripped it away and give it to Sorcerers in the form of a morph to 1 of their pets. . . You must truly hate Templars ways...
Edited by Ch4mpTW on April 20, 2017 7:15PM
  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
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    All I can say is that I'm hopeful this means they'll be able to bring Templar back to the drawing board again and fix some of the core design flaws with the class we've been complaining about all along. I still feel Templar lacks a cohesive design in the same manner as the Dragon Knight for instance. Templar keeps changing in what it is supposed to be and I will say right now the vision behind the class beyond being a golden holy man is not entirely clear to me. Much of what makes Templar unique or special can be found elsewhere. It has a lot of junk active skills, and a lot of junk passives. The passive problem is not as terrible as it once was, but it still needs work.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • STEVIL
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    A simple question... have you played a magplar under the new pts as it stands rule and if so for how long?

    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Mettaricana
    Mettaricana
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    Or let it go back to being a healer tank like it was before everyone cried wolf for picking a non dps class
  • mewcatus
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    Can't tell if you are using regen, cost reduction or spell damage enchants on your jewellry.
  • notimetocare
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    Nonsense and fearmongering
  • Olupajmibanan
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    There are positive and negative reactions regarding major mending removal from Templar.

    There are positive and negative reactions about spear changes.

    I've seen more positive than negative opinions about BOL change.

    But...

    I haven't seen a single positive reaction on Repentance change. Even nerf deffenders and templar haters said that this change is a complete non-sense.
    Nobody likes this change, nobody. Repentance was always highly situational and found no use on most bosses. But was a blessing on trash clears. Spear utility was at least copied to Necrotic Orb, but Repentance is gone completely without any compensation.
  • notimetocare
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    There are positive and negative reactions regarding major mending removal from Templar.

    There are positive and negative reactions about spear changes.

    I've seen more positive than negative opinions about BOL change.

    But...

    I haven't seen a single positive reaction on Repentance change. Even nerf deffenders and templar haters said that this change is a complete non-sense.
    Nobody likes this change, nobody. Repentance was always highly situational and found no use on most bosses. But was a blessing on trash clears. Spear utility was at least copied to Necrotic Orb, but Repentance is gone completely without any compensation.

    Because it doesn't need compensation elsewhere. It would negate the whole purpose of the changes. Good riddance to it
  • Goshua
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    Or let it go back to being a healer tank like it was before everyone cried wolf for picking a non dps class

    By 'picking' I guess you deciding to play, otherwise there needs to be a warning on a few class skill tool tips and character creation screen.
  • Ch4mpTW
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    mewcatus wrote: »
    Can't tell if you are using regen, cost reduction or spell damage enchants on your jewellry.

    I thought I mentioned it, but all jewelry pieces have gold spell damage glyphs (CP 160). All jewelry is gold Moondancer, and is also CP 160. As for the traits, everything is arcane.
    Nonsense and fearmongering

    Lolwut? Mind elaborating?
    Edited by Ch4mpTW on April 22, 2017 7:59AM
  • mewcatus
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    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    mewcatus wrote: »
    Can't tell if you are using regen, cost reduction or spell damage enchants on your jewellry.

    I thought I mentioned it, but all jewelry pieces have gold spell damage glyphs (CP 160). All jewelry is gold Moondancer, and is also CP 160. As for the traits, everything is arcane.

    Have you tried using 3 regen enchants instead and see how the healing goes ?
  • Cadbury
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    STEVIL wrote: »
    A simple question... have you played a magplar under the new pts as it stands rule and if so for how long?

    He's on PS4, but maybe he has an old PC account?
    I may be wrong,,however.
    "If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."
  • Calandrae
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    Goshua wrote: »
    Or let it go back to being a healer tank like it was before everyone cried wolf for picking a non dps class

    By 'picking' I guess you deciding to play, otherwise there needs to be a warning on a few class skill tool tips and character creation screen.

    "Templar is a Class in Elder Scrolls Online. These traveling knights call upon the power of light and the burning sun to deal massive damage to their enemies while restoring health, magicka and stamina to their allies."


    If this is the Templar class description, do you think it will be accurate and informative after Morrowind?
    Edited by Calandrae on April 22, 2017 8:26AM
  • Derra
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    All I can say is that I'm hopeful this means they'll be able to bring Templar back to the drawing board again and fix some of the core design flaws with the class we've been complaining about all along. I still feel Templar lacks a cohesive design in the same manner as the Dragon Knight for instance.

    I´m not sure you want to put templars in the same position dragonknights are in now.

    ZOS has gradually over time torn apart everything that once made DKs a fun an working class with a cohesive design. I used to envy DKs (as a sorc) for their awesome well rounded class design with everything working together.
    Then zos decided to nerf inferno, ash cloud, reflect, dynamic ult, battleroar, helping hands etc pp.

    Nowadays i pity DKs - because the balancing team at zos treated them how a curious 4 year old treats an insect they find in the cellar.
    Slowly pulling it apart limb after limb until only a ravaged body is left in agony but not showing the mercy to finally end it.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Ch4mpTW
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    Cadbury wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    A simple question... have you played a magplar under the new pts as it stands rule and if so for how long?

    He's on PS4, but maybe he has an old PC account?
    I may be wrong,,however.

    I do indeed have an old PC account. Although, I haven't logged on it in I don't even know how long. Lol.

    @STEVIL I haven't gotten my hands on my MagPlars since the 'fix', but I can only imagine the carnage damage dealers are experiencing. I've come to notice that the people who are claiming this and that isn't that bad aren't doing end-game content. These people saying sustain is fine, and how so and so is in a good spot have not reported experiences in VMA. Nor VAA or VMoL. You know? They maybe did a dungeon (if that), and primarily quests. Or maybe they just did some PvP/battlegrounds. And they're making these bold statements. If you notice, you never see anyone saying, "Oh, well I tested out the changes in ____ trial, and my findings were ____." Funny how that is.
  • ADarklore
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    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    mewcatus wrote: »
    Can't tell if you are using regen, cost reduction or spell damage enchants on your jewellry.

    I thought I mentioned it, but all jewelry pieces have gold spell damage glyphs (CP 160). All jewelry is gold Moondancer, and is also CP 160. As for the traits, everything is arcane.
    Nonsense and fearmongering

    Lolwut? Mind elaborating?

    The BOLDED is exactly your problem and one of the main reasons ZOS came down with the hammer on Cost Reduction in CP... because of people running around doing high damage and utilizing damage glyphs.

    Second, Gina offered a great explanation of the Templar changes in her comment yesterday.

    Third, I don't do 'end game' content, however, as a solo quester, I've NEVER had a problem with resource management on my Magplar, EVER. So what 'solo content' you're speaking of cannot refer to open world quests, delves or even Public Dungeons because I breeze through all of them without a sweat on my Magplar. Funny thing is, I've even adjusted him to prepare for these upcoming changes by removing CR from CP, reducing regen down to 15% and removing a point from Light armor bringing CR down to 2%... and I'm still not having a single problem... and I'm running Julianos/Spinners, NOT Seducer.
    CP: 2078 ** ESO+ 2025 Content Pass ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
    ~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025~~
  • Ch4mpTW
    Ch4mpTW
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    ADarklore wrote: »
    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    mewcatus wrote: »
    Can't tell if you are using regen, cost reduction or spell damage enchants on your jewellry.

    I thought I mentioned it, but all jewelry pieces have gold spell damage glyphs (CP 160). All jewelry is gold Moondancer, and is also CP 160. As for the traits, everything is arcane.
    Nonsense and fearmongering

    Lolwut? Mind elaborating?

    The BOLDED is exactly your problem and one of the main reasons ZOS came down with the hammer on Cost Reduction in CP... because of people running around doing high damage and utilizing damage glyphs.

    Second, Gina offered a great explanation of the Templar changes in her comment yesterday.

    Third, I don't do 'end game' content, however, as a solo quester, I've NEVER had a problem with resource management on my Magplar, EVER. So what 'solo content' you're speaking of cannot refer to open world quests, delves or even Public Dungeons because I breeze through all of them without a sweat on my Magplar. Funny thing is, I've even adjusted him to prepare for these upcoming changes by removing CR from CP, reducing regen down to 15% and removing a point from Light armor bringing CR down to 2%... and I'm still not having a single problem... and I'm running Julianos/Spinners, NOT Seducer.

    @ADarklore So wait a minute... How can you even make that claim and or comment? You just said that you don't do end-game content, so of course your resources wouldn't be effected too much (if at all). I do end-game content, and the strain is definitely there.

    As for solo content, I'm talking about solo'ing WB's and veteran dungeons. I'm talking about doing VMA, and banging out competitive scores. I'm talking about type of content. Do you think I'd be wearing BSW and Moondancer, if I was doing what you did? Why would I...? There would be no point. When I set foot in overland content I damn near 1 and 2-shot everything. 3-shot at most (except for WB's).

    No offense, but we are in the same ocean (PvE) — but different boats. You do overland content for the most part, and don't do end-game content. Which is fine. That's perfectly fine to do so, as you buy your game to play how you want. However, to someone who does end-game content... Your comments are neither here nor there. You're not in VAA-HM dealing with atros, meteors, reflections, etc. All the while still having to deal with the boss. You're not in VMoL dealing with Sun-Eaters, and the bs strain the gauntlets apply on your resources. Let alone health. You're not fighting Rakkat, and trying to skip Lunar Phase. You're not in situations where if a bash is missed, or someone does something wrong then things go bad for the entire group (if no one can catch it in time).
  • zyk
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    Nonsense and fearmongering

    Yup. I can't say I know for certain, but I think 3.0.0 is completely different in reality than what is being imagined in General Discussion. Someone only reading this forum would probably think it is a completely different game and that no one will ever play Templar again.

    Whether one likes the changes or not, they probably aren't even close to being of the magnitude represented here.
  • Ch4mpTW
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    zyk wrote: »
    Nonsense and fearmongering

    Yup. I can't say I know for certain, but I think 3.0.0 is completely different in reality than what is being imagined in General Discussion. Someone only reading this forum would probably think it is a completely different game and that no one will ever play Templar again.

    Whether one likes the changes or not, they probably aren't even close to being of the magnitude represented here.

    @zyk So what is nonsense that I posted? How am I fearmongering, when every single thing that I wrote is based off of things currently in-game and what I experience whenever utilizing a MagPlar? I even applied screen shots of my numbers, and listed the gear and glyphs used. Also, every claim I made about MagPlar's changes can be found in the 3.0 patch notes. So please explain to me how it is that why I write is nonsense? What is your backing to support your claim, considering I posted a myriad of things to support my claims. I'm genuinely curious. Unless of course you don't do end-game content like the other gentleman, and all the things I mentioned hardly effect you. If at all.
    Edited by Ch4mpTW on April 22, 2017 9:45AM
  • F7sus4
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    It doesn't really matter if you'll be able to sustain your build for 55 seconds on Magplar DD or for 75 seconds on MagNB DD. All of them do not have enough sustain to provide any meaningful group-DPS output for most of hardmode Trials anymore without reworking them into sustained wet-noodle mode first. And that's the core problem in a wider spectrum.

    We wiped vMOL Twins on PTS on our very first run there because the DPS was so low when compared to current meta that we managed to get overwhelmed by ads (5+ prayer phases).

    :(
  • STEVIL
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    Thanks @Ch4mpTW for thevreply to me. Also looking at your other responses about the limits of your scope to @ADarklore I have to say the following.

    Your opening post made it sound like you wrre talking about much much jore of the content than you now claim.

    In your opening post you said " Before I begin, I'll say this first and foremost. There appears to be a large misconception that Templars (magicka) have incredible sustain within a PvE environment. This is untrue. Whether it be solo'ing content, in a trial with 11 other people, or in a dungeon."

    While that comment does not directly say it covers only end-game, it certainly leads one to think you are referring to a briader range of content play than what you clarify when you refer later with comnents like "As for solo content, I'm talking about solo'ing WB's and veteran dungeons. I'm talking about doing VMA, and banging out competitive scores" and such.

    So, making a statement as braod as "Death of Magplars (pve)" with the statement implying it covers a lot of content i think can be seen as @notimetocare described it, especialky after you narrowed it diwn to top tier competitive score end game onky, which is a smsll part of the database.

    Also, i have to say, it seems something is missing.

    The designers have made it abundantly clear they are making these changes for a very specific goal - to get rid of the current level of high end damage and sustain (where folks max dmg with little to no need to trade off for sustain. They make no bones about it that they want these changes to create a trade-off being necessary between highest damage and constsnt sustain more thsn it is now. Pretty much that flat out says they want the sustained max damage to be less than it is now.

    So, complaing that with these changes your damage wont match previous levels in top end competitive leaderboard content is like telling someone who says "i want this coffee sweeter so lets add sugar" that thays bad because it will make it sweeter.

    The key is this, for the small slice of pve content at the levels you are now clearly limiting your comments to, its obvious that as part of a major redesign intended to lower sustained maxdam this niche of top tier competitive pve content would be re-tuned to either match the new expected max outputs or scoreboards reset so that the competition going forward is reflective of the new outputs.

    As for why there are not more folks after jyst a few days of pkaytest weighing in on how good or bad the impact hits existing non-morrowind trial yet, all i can say is that there may be factors at play that cannot be discussed here at this time that could be playing a role in that - other than the conclusion you seem to have reached.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • lunalitetempler
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    Did I miss something? How did they nerf the mageplar this patch? Wasn't it just healing stuff like bol, repent and major mending? I can only assume your talking about the cp which affects everyone.

    Tldr - what DPS were you doing on a dummy? Did you test trials?
    Edited by lunalitetempler on April 22, 2017 10:05AM
  • STEVIL
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    F7sus4 wrote: »
    It doesn't really matter if you'll be able to sustain your build for 55 seconds on Magplar DD or for 75 seconds on MagNB DD. All of them do not have enough sustain to provide any meaningful group-DPS output for most of hardmode Trials anymore without reworking them into sustained wet-noodle mode first. And that's the core problem in a wider spectrum.

    We wiped vMOL Twins on PTS on our very first run there because the DPS was so low when compared to current meta that we managed to get overwhelmed by ads (5+ prayer phases).

    :(

    So the plan to put an end to the current sustain with maxdam outputs was achieved and now as the playtest goes on they can adjust the dps-challenge type encounters to suit the new meta OR folks will rework new metas to meeet the new paradigm and likely a bit of both?
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • STEVIL
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    zyk wrote: »
    Nonsense and fearmongering

    Yup. I can't say I know for certain, but I think 3.0.0 is completely different in reality than what is being imagined in General Discussion. Someone only reading this forum would probably think it is a completely different game and that no one will ever play Templar again.

    Whether one likes the changes or not, they probably aren't even close to being of the magnitude represented here.

    it has been observed by others that the mood over on the PTS and tone is a lot less severe and end of the world than it is here.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Rohamad_Ali
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    F7sus4 wrote: »
    It doesn't really matter if you'll be able to sustain your build for 55 seconds on Magplar DD or for 75 seconds on MagNB DD. All of them do not have enough sustain to provide any meaningful group-DPS output for most of hardmode Trials anymore without reworking them into sustained wet-noodle mode first. And that's the core problem in a wider spectrum.

    We wiped vMOL Twins on PTS on our very first run there because the DPS was so low when compared to current meta that we managed to get overwhelmed by ads (5+ prayer phases).

    :(

    I didn't attempt anything that big but I was hoping they had at least scaled the content to the damage reductions . I know there's some other issues causing lower damage input that is just broken in the cp trees but that would not be big enough to point a finger at . They have to start creeping the numbers up some by next cycle to match end game content .
  • Ch4mpTW
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    F7sus4 wrote: »
    It doesn't really matter if you'll be able to sustain your build for 55 seconds on Magplar DD or for 75 seconds on MagNB DD. All of them do not have enough sustain to provide any meaningful group-DPS output for most of hardmode Trials anymore without reworking them into sustained wet-noodle mode first. And that's the core problem in a wider spectrum.

    We wiped vMOL Twins on PTS on our very first run there because the DPS was so low when compared to current meta that we managed to get overwhelmed by ads (5+ prayer phases).

    :(

    This is the type of information I'm looking for (regarding PTS feedback). And from your findings, it's exactly as I predicted and many others have predicted. There isn't enough damage, because there isn't enough sustain. There's not enough juice to put out the power required to clear things involving a "DPS Race" mechanic. And as I also figured, ZOS isn't turning around and redesigning the content where such things existed. I'm surprised that you all bested the first boss, to be honest. That last shield phase can be brutal, if not enough damage is being put out. So I'm curious if any wipes were done in that regards, or the build-up to shield phases.
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Thanks @Ch4mpTW for thevreply to me. Also looking at your other responses about the limits of your scope to @ADarklore I have to say the following.

    Your opening post made it sound like you wrre talking about much much jore of the content than you now claim.

    In your opening post you said " Before I begin, I'll say this first and foremost. There appears to be a large misconception that Templars (magicka) have incredible sustain within a PvE environment. This is untrue. Whether it be solo'ing content, in a trial with 11 other people, or in a dungeon."

    While that comment does not directly say it covers only end-game, it certainly leads one to think you are referring to a briader range of content play than what you clarify when you refer later with comnents like "As for solo content, I'm talking about solo'ing WB's and veteran dungeons. I'm talking about doing VMA, and banging out competitive scores" and such.

    So, making a statement as braod as "Death of Magplars (pve)" with the statement implying it covers a lot of content i think can be seen as @notimetocare described it, especialky after you narrowed it diwn to top tier competitive score end game onky, which is a smsll part of the database.

    Also, i have to say, it seems something is missing.

    The designers have made it abundantly clear they are making these changes for a very specific goal - to get rid of the current level of high end damage and sustain (where folks max dmg with little to no need to trade off for sustain. They make no bones about it that they want these changes to create a trade-off being necessary between highest damage and constsnt sustain more thsn it is now. Pretty much that flat out says they want the sustained max damage to be less than it is now.

    So, complaing that with these changes your damage wont match previous levels in top end competitive leaderboard content is like telling someone who says "i want this coffee sweeter so lets add sugar" that thays bad because it will make it sweeter.

    The key is this, for the small slice of pve content at the levels you are now clearly limiting your comments to, its obvious that as part of a major redesign intended to lower sustained maxdam this niche of top tier competitive pve content would be re-tuned to either match the new expected max outputs or scoreboards reset so that the competition going forward is reflective of the new outputs.

    As for why there are not more folks after jyst a few days of pkaytest weighing in on how good or bad the impact hits existing non-morrowind trial yet, all i can say is that there may be factors at play that cannot be discussed here at this time that could be playing a role in that - other than the conclusion you seem to have reached.

    That's fair enough, although I figured things like overland content really go without mention. Because, there isn't much to be worried about to begin with. As I told the other gentleman, who is really checking for their resources and overall sustainability when dealing with overland content? Who's really worried about things such as an "enrage timer" or "DPS race mechanic" , when you're just buzzing about doing quests at your leisure? No one (for the most part).
  • Peekachu99
    Peekachu99
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    I have several concerns/ comments about your reasoning.

    A.) I didn't see it in there, but are you a vampire? If we're talking about min/ maxing for trials, you should be.

    B.) Off that last point, what race are you? Looks Argonian, maybe? Or Orc? Neither of which isn't ideal for regen (Breton or High Elf). I really can't see anything other than her huge brown/ scaled boobs in that image (looks a bit like a messy tranny, if we're being honest).

    C.) THREE spellpower glyphs are certainly an issue.

    D.) Anything less than 1000 regen is bad, bad, bad. For any build. This is exactly the issue devs are trying to curb and you will be the player shrieking for shards and orbs and useless after they go "oomph". In PVE you're hobbled without a support monkey throwing you resources every second. In PVP you're just dead weight. The purpose of support roles is to support not carry people through every mechanic and facility of their class and resource management.

    E.) Channeled Ritual's 120 magika/ 0.5s is the equivalent to 480 regen. Regen ticks every 2s. With that up, you're literally adding 480 points to your magika regen stat. That's not bad at all.

    People making these knee jerk posts often demonstrate a lack of fundamental mechanics. And once more, we can invest in TWICE AS MANY CP NODES IN THE NEXT PATCH WITH A NEW ONE FOCUSED ON DIRECT DAMAGE. So you're parses will go up, even as you rework your build (or redo yours entirely, since it's not at all resource friendly) for 3.0.
  • STEVIL
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    There are positive and negative reactions regarding major mending removal from Templar.

    There are positive and negative reactions about spear changes.

    I've seen more positive than negative opinions about BOL change.

    But...

    I haven't seen a single positive reaction on Repentance change. Even nerf deffenders and templar haters said that this change is a complete non-sense.
    Nobody likes this change, nobody. Repentance was always highly situational and found no use on most bosses. But was a blessing on trash clears. Spear utility was at least copied to Necrotic Orb, but Repentance is gone completely without any compensation.

    Let me give you one.

    on another thread, someone is posting about how the "other morph" to repentance for magplar is underrated and is pretty much getting told quite resoundingly but not exclusively that its not underrated repentance is much better in enough cases that even for magpl;ars its the only real choice.

    Well, whenever i see a case where one morph is the obvious choice for most every content, even when its a case of a stam-v-mag so much that even mag takes the "stam" option... i see that as a sign that a change is needed. Except in cases where two morphs are intended for very specific content difference - one for pve other for pvp - both morphs should have a solid place in the sun making them viable.

    From my experience, even running solo magplar, repentance was the chosen option.

    The change to repentance will reduce its overall effectiveness in some situations and fits with their overall theme of making sustain harder so it seems like a move towards making the difference in effectiveness between the two morphs less severe.

    So there is sense to the change - whether or not it stands as is or gets tweaked a bit in the next six weeks will be a matter of playtest results.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • STEVIL
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    Did I miss something? How did they nerf the mageplar this patch? Wasn't it just healing stuff like bol, repent and major mending? I can only assume your talking about the cp which affects everyone.

    Tldr - what DPS were you doing on a dummy? Did you test trials?

    i think s it the cp change and the sustain change being at the key of the DPS changes and yes... the broad category applies to everyone but obviously it affects some builds, some class-sets-glyphs-race combos more than others.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Ch4mpTW
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    Peekachu99 wrote: »
    I have several concerns/ comments about your reasoning.

    A.) I didn't see it in there, but are you a vampire? If we're talking about min/ maxing for trials, you should be.

    B.) Off that last point, what race are you? Looks Argonian, maybe? Or Orc? Neither of which isn't ideal for regen (Breton or High Elf). I really can't see anything other than her huge brown/ scaled boobs in that image (looks a bit like a messy tranny, if we're being honest).

    C.) THREE spellpower glyphs are certainly an issue.

    D.) Anything less than 1000 regen is bad, bad, bad. For any build. This is exactly the issue devs are trying to curb and you will be the player shrieking for shards and orbs and useless after they go "oomph". In PVE you're hobbled without a support monkey throwing you resources every second. In PVP you're just dead weight. The purpose of support roles is to support not carry people through every mechanic and facility of their class and resource management.

    E.) Channeled Ritual's 120 magika/ 0.5s is the equivalent to 480 regen. Regen ticks every 2s. With that up, you're literally adding 480 points to your magika regen stat. That's not bad at all.

    People making these knee jerk posts often demonstrate a lack of fundamental mechanics. And once more, we can invest in TWICE AS MANY CP NODES IN THE NEXT PATCH WITH A NEW ONE FOCUSED ON DIRECT DAMAGE. So you're parses will go up, even as you rework your build (or redo yours entirely, since it's not at all resource friendly) for 3.0.

    @Peekachu99 First off, I am not a vampire. I cured my vamprism on my MagPlar a while ago, and actually did better than when I was 1. Just my personal preference. Also, that is a Breton MagPlar. They look the way they do, because of me wearing the Dro-m'Athra skin. I specifically choose Breton to make sustaining easier, way back when I first created them eons ago. Also, those pictures were taken as I use that Templar nowadays. Once things shift over, I will undoubtably go with a different type of enchantment on jewelry, but there is no reason for me to go about using sustain glyphs on my jewelry for content pre-Morrowind. Also, your comments about being hobbled without a "support monkey" make no sense. Supports are there to throw orbs and shards in general. When you're a damage dealer in a trial, you're not there to be focused on self-sustain. No. That's not your job. Hence why it's frowned upon to go into a trial as a magicka damage dealer with Destro/Resto. No. You go in as Destro/Destro, or in a MagPlar's case — Destro/DW. What are you even talking about? O_O

    Edit: My gear choice is actually considered best-in-slot for doing trials, minus the restoration staff. As that is replaced with sharpened Moondancer swords for that back bar. However, it was setup for VMA and vet dungeon solo'ing. Which is why I left the restoration staffs there. I don't know anyone in a serious end-game trial who doesn't utilize the build I listed above. Even MagDK's. An entirely different class utilizes 5x BSW, 3x Moondancer, 2x Grothdarr, and 2x Maelstrom Inferno. Although you can go 1x Maelstrom Inferno, and 1x Crafted Inferno. For MagPlars you go: 5x BSW, 5x Moondancer, 2x Grothdarr, 1x Maelstrom Lightning. That's considered best in slot.
    Edited by Ch4mpTW on April 22, 2017 10:30AM
  • Rohamad_Ali
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    Peekachu99 wrote: »
    I have several concerns/ comments about your reasoning.

    A.) I didn't see it in there, but are you a vampire? If we're talking about min/ maxing for trials, you should be.

    B.) Off that last point, what race are you? Looks Argonian, maybe? Or Orc? Neither of which isn't ideal for regen (Breton or High Elf). I really can't see anything other than her huge brown/ scaled boobs in that image (looks a bit like a messy tranny, if we're being honest).

    C.) THREE spellpower glyphs are certainly an issue.

    D.) Anything less than 1000 regen is bad, bad, bad. For any build. This is exactly the issue devs are trying to curb and you will be the player shrieking for shards and orbs and useless after they go "oomph". In PVE you're hobbled without a support monkey throwing you resources every second. In PVP you're just dead weight. The purpose of support roles is to support not carry people through every mechanic and facility of their class and resource management.

    E.) Channeled Ritual's 120 magika/ 0.5s is the equivalent to 480 regen. Regen ticks every 2s. With that up, you're literally adding 480 points to your magika regen stat. That's not bad at all.

    People making these knee jerk posts often demonstrate a lack of fundamental mechanics. And once more, we can invest in TWICE AS MANY CP NODES IN THE NEXT PATCH WITH A NEW ONE FOCUSED ON DIRECT DAMAGE. So you're parses will go up, even as you rework your build (or redo yours entirely, since it's not at all resource friendly) for 3.0.

    Have you completed any of the hard mode trials or dungeons on the PTS ?
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