Besides the shift from dps to sustain, the sources of damage also shift, along with means to recover ressources. The notes alone don't tell the whole story.

greylox wrote: »

Hopefully the enemies have sustain issues too

It would actually make sense to make enemies have magicka and stamina pools as well, that can get damaged to stop them casting certain abilities.

Angier wrote: »

Besides the shift from dps to sustain, the sources of damage also shift, along with means to recover ressources. The notes alone don't tell the whole story.

Since not a single person mentioned anything about a shift of sources of damage or new means to recover ressources i have my doubts about that. All i read about is people complaining about being out of ressources in a few seconds/rotations.

So could you explain it in a bit more detail? Take my magplar as an example: Which are the new sources of damage? What are my new means to recover ressources?
I would like to try your suggestions once my pts client is installed.

Turelus wrote: »

I would imagine they've checked the DPS checks or at least that's something players could check right now.

Remember that most builds doing content have been over performing enough to drop some bosses before phases even start.

It's probably only veteran trials where this will matter as even Maelstrom's DPS check is easy to pass (I should know I have 15k and did it).

That's what i was talking about. It might be good changes for those few top dps groups, but they f*** the game up for average players. Are only those players that "work" the game allowed to finished veteran (trial) content? I won't exploit block cancel or any other stuff like that neither will i train for hours to perfect my rotation down to the last millisecond.

I don't mind challenging content, but the content should be doable for people that just want to play this game without theorycrafting every single detail.

btw. I could only dream of reaching 15k dps or finishing maelstrom arena in the current patch, much less if they nerf my sustain. And i read every single "easy maelstrom" guide and died more than enough in this arena. My ultimate decision regarding vma was either i quit trying to finish it or i quit the game. For now i decided to quit trying.

Galendior wrote: »

Angier wrote: »

Besides the shift from dps to sustain, the sources of damage also shift, along with means to recover ressources. The notes alone don't tell the whole story.

Since not a single person mentioned anything about a shift of sources of damage or new means to recover ressources i have my doubts about that. All i read about is people complaining about being out of ressources in a few seconds/rotations.

So could you explain it in a bit more detail? Take my magplar as an example: Which are the new sources of damage? What are my new means to recover ressources?
I would like to try your suggestions once my pts client is installed.

Turelus wrote: »

I would imagine they've checked the DPS checks or at least that's something players could check right now.

Remember that most builds doing content have been over performing enough to drop some bosses before phases even start.

It's probably only veteran trials where this will matter as even Maelstrom's DPS check is easy to pass (I should know I have 15k and did it).

That's what i was talking about. It might be good changes for those few top dps groups, but they f*** the game up for average players. Are only those players that "work" the game allowed to finished veteran (trial) content? I won't exploit block cancel or any other stuff like that neither will i train for hours to perfect my rotation down to the last millisecond.

I don't mind challenging content, but the content should be doable for people that just want to play this game without theorycrafting every single detail.

btw. I could only dream of reaching 15k dps or finishing maelstrom arena in the current patch, much less if they nerf my sustain. And i read every single "easy maelstrom" guide and died more than enough in this arena. My ultimate decision regarding vma was either i quit trying to finish it or i quit the game. For now i decided to quit trying.

Whilst I am normally against the "elite" and "git gud" I would say that everyone can reach the level of play I have if they're willing to put aside some notions and prejudice.

I don't do good animation cancelling, just weaving destro staff and swallow soul, I do use "meta" sets and builds but not the top end.
Maelstrom for me was a horrible first clear, the second one I did in one sitting because I actually knew the mechanics. I will stand by that maelstrom is more about knowing how to play well rather than gear/skills.

The veteran trials to my knowledge can be cleared by lower skill groups (such as my level) but they have to be willing to learn them and play to the games meta to some extent.

Don't take a sword and shield DPS and complain you can't make a DPS check, this isn't elitism it's sadly game design.

Sydria wrote: »

The solution is pretty obvious to me: they need to adjust all DPS Checks.

I would go one further. Remove all DPS checks.

DPS checks don't encourage diverse builds, outside the box concepts or interesting/fun runs (all sword and board run!) but just force players to play to the games meta in order to clear.

I don't care if a group take four hours to clear a boss because they're using sword and board only, I would in fact think that's awesome for them to achieve. However because of DPS checks in games we don't get that just more "use this cookie cutter DPS build or go home".

Turelus wrote: »

all sword and board run!

All Argonian run!

Turelus wrote: »

Whilst I am normally against the "elite" and "git gud" I would say that everyone can reach the level of play I have if they're willing to put aside some notions and prejudice.

I don't do good animation cancelling, just weaving destro staff and swallow soul, I do use "meta" sets and builds but not the top end.
Maelstrom for me was a horrible first clear, the second one I did in one sitting because I actually knew the mechanics. I will stand by that maelstrom is more about knowing how to play well rather than gear/skills.

The veteran trials to my knowledge can be cleared by lower skill groups (such as my level) but they have to be willing to learn them and play to the games meta to some extent.

Don't take a sword and shield DPS and complain you can't make a DPS check, this isn't elitism it's sadly game design.

And now please tell me where i said veteran trials can't be cleared or that we have a sword and shield dps.
I used the raid group as an example to show that things that are currently possible (!) even for less experienced raidgroups might as well not be anymore after this patch hits live. Means this patch doesn't bring top and normal players closer together like intended, but might as well remove "normal" players from a lot of content.

Since i don't know your level of play, i don't know too much about reaching it. But considering yourself as part of a "lower skill group" when you are actually able to clear vet maelstrom is quite funny. I'm having trading guilds with close to 500 players in it and the amount of people clearing this thing can probably be counted on 1-2 hands. If it was clearable by "lower skill" people shouldn't that be quite a bit more?
.

Galendior wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Whilst I am normally against the "elite" and "git gud" I would say that everyone can reach the level of play I have if they're willing to put aside some notions and prejudice.

I don't do good animation cancelling, just weaving destro staff and swallow soul, I do use "meta" sets and builds but not the top end.
Maelstrom for me was a horrible first clear, the second one I did in one sitting because I actually knew the mechanics. I will stand by that maelstrom is more about knowing how to play well rather than gear/skills.

The veteran trials to my knowledge can be cleared by lower skill groups (such as my level) but they have to be willing to learn them and play to the games meta to some extent.

Don't take a sword and shield DPS and complain you can't make a DPS check, this isn't elitism it's sadly game design.

And now please tell me where i said veteran trials can't be cleared or that we have a sword and shield dps.
I used the raid group as an example to show that things that are currently possible (!) even for less experienced raidgroups might as well not be anymore after this patch hits live. Means this patch doesn't bring top and normal players closer together like intended, but might as well remove "normal" players from a lot of content.

Since i don't know your level of play, i don't know too much about reaching it. But considering yourself as part of a "lower skill group" when you are actually able to clear vet maelstrom is quite funny. I'm having trading guilds with close to 500 players in it and the amount of people clearing this thing can probably be counted on 1-2 hands. If it was clearable by "lower skill" people shouldn't that be quite a bit more?
.

Firstly none of what I said was meant to be directly at you nor to put words in your mouth, if it came off that way you have my apologies.

Maybe I am part of the mid-tier then, but I think most of the issues players face with things like Maelstrom or other content is about knowledge of the mechanics if the game systems, or a refusal to play them rather than actual player skill blocks.
I am terrible with bar swaps, I flail around like a muppet, get adrenaline shakes and die, stand in red stuff etc. all the time.

However, much of what I used to consider hard about Maelstrom I was shocked to see was actually easy when I knew what to do. Now I am far from a no death run and waste a good 60-100 soul gems each run, but I know I can clear it and I know where my issues are.

As for bring the gap closer I think this will have some effect on that by bringing the top players back to using non-damage meta sets. New players will possibly struggle but this somewhat falls on if they're focusing on game knowledge or not.
If they're looking at what the fixes for sustain are and looking at working on some they should be able to work well enough to clear a trial.

As for the DPS checks themselves as I said in my previous posts they're probably still doable with new set ups as they were not to my knowledge designed for the current 40k+ DPS per character. If they were then I am sure ZOS would be aware of it and changing them to accommodate this.

I believe @ZOS_Finn might be the one to ask? If he's got 5mins to give a quick answer.

The thing is its all relative. So say every Vet Trial becomes a vMoL HM, that's a good thing no? Gives the high end gamers more content to tackle again.

I don't get how so many have this "oh, it's okay that it's getting harder for the new guys and casuals, it was too easy before anyway" mentality. So we're supposed to just be okay with having to perform better to achieve the same outcome?

As I've said in other threads, "easy" is subjective but numbers aren't. These fights were designed around a certain amount of dps, and players who are actually able to hit that amount now will not be able to clear this content when Morrowind hits.

The only explanation I have for why more players don't care about this issue is that they already have all the gear anyway. It's easy to be dismissive when your own character's progression isn't at stake....

LiquidPony wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

I don't get how so many have this "oh, it's okay that it's getting harder for the new guys and casuals, it was too easy before anyway" mentality. So we're supposed to just be okay with having to perform better to achieve the same outcome?

As I've said in other threads, "easy" is subjective but numbers aren't. These fights were designed around a certain amount of dps, and players who are actually able to hit that amount now will not be able to clear this content when Morrowind hits.

The only explanation I have for why more players don't care about this issue is that they already have all the gear anyway. It's easy to be dismissive when your own character's progression isn't at stake....

@Crafts_Many_Boxes how do you know that content is going to be "harder" than it was before?

Have you tested the Trials on PTS?

Umm, I have common sense?

DPS right now = X

DPS after morrowind hits = <X

=> Fights will be harder. Phases take longer, fights last longer, more room for error / death. Fights with enrage timers and dps checks might not be doable for people who can barley do them now. That was the whole basis of my argument lol. It's also the basis of this thread.

No PTS testing is required for any of this. If average dps goes down and these new heavy attack builds wind up doing less dps than the existing meta, this will all be true.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

I don't get how so many have this "oh, it's okay that it's getting harder for the new guys and casuals, it was too easy before anyway" mentality. So we're supposed to just be okay with having to perform better to achieve the same outcome?

As I've said in other threads, "easy" is subjective but numbers aren't. These fights were designed around a certain amount of dps, and players who are actually able to hit that amount now will not be able to clear this content when Morrowind hits.

The only explanation I have for why more players don't care about this issue is that they already have all the gear anyway. It's easy to be dismissive when your own character's progression isn't at stake....

@Crafts_Many_Boxes how do you know that content is going to be "harder" than it was before?

Have you tested the Trials on PTS?

Umm, I have common sense?

DPS right now = X

DPS after morrowind hits = <X

=> Fights will be harder. Phases take longer, fights last longer, more room for error / death. Fights with enrage timers and dps checks might not be doable for people who can barley do them now. That was the whole basis of my argument lol.

No PTS testing is required for any of this. If average dps goes down and these new heavy attack builds wind up doing less dps than the existing meta, this will all be true.

@Crafts_Many_Boxes How do you know DPS is going down? You don't. What you call "common sense" is just a bunch of assumptions and hopping on the "the sky is falling" bandwagon that rolls into town every patch. I heard the same thing last patch "ZOMG with Major Force nerfed and monster set procs nerfed, my [insert class here] is going to lose 10% of its DPS!!!!!" ... and of course, when the patch actually dropped and people tweaked their builds, DPS went *way up* and we started setting new top scores in every piece of content in the game.

Have you worked out the numbers on the CP changes? Have you noticed that Master-at-Arms is going to give everyone a significant Direct Damage buff, and Ironclad is going to give everyone a significant PvE mitigation buff? Have you looked at any of the new sets to see what they bring to the table as far as group utility, DPS increase, etc.? What about the effects of massively increase Caltrops damage that now stacks? What about the 30 additional CP we're going to have?

Maybe DPS will go down, maybe it won't. You don't know until you try it or theorycraft the hell out of it, and you've said you didn't do the former and I doubt you've done the latter. And don't get me wrong. I don't love the changes either. But I have not loved the changes in prior patches and things turned out OK.

And you're right. In the event that this isn't an overall dps loss across the board, I will have been proven wrong. But based on the general message on those patch notes, I can't help but feel that nerfing dps was the ultimate goal.

People have been saying all along that this was done as a reaction to veteran trial groups having the dps to skip entire phases and never run out of resources doing it. To me, ZOS saying they want to bring the game back to having to manage your resources implies they want overall damage to decrease. But, some have pointed out the flat dmg modifiers in CP have gone up, so who knows. It's just the vibe I'm getting and the general vibe on the forums that dps is going down is all.

And I've always put those "assuming dps goes down" and "if dps decreases" qualifiers in my posts because I'm aware of this fact, and that I'm not really in a position to test on the PTS. I'm like CP 40, and while I have quite a bit of raid experience in other MMOs, I'm still getting the hang of endgame play here in terms of rotations and such.