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Stamina DPS in PVE fixed for morrowind?

Shadzilla
Shadzilla
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Everyone that does any sort of competitive PVE is well aware stamina dps have been rare since the 1 Tamriel patch late last year. From trials anyway. Stam sorc still had vDSA and vMA until homestead. Now we are back to Magicka ruling all. The only reason stamina were used in thieves guild and dark brotherhood last year, was the single target damage. This is now gone, considering mag sorc/dk currently do more SINGLE TARGET damage than all stam toons. Along with having access to shields that can double their health at the simple click of a button. Stam toons also pull around 70% of the aoe dmg that mag pulls in most trash packs, rip destro ult. The fact that stam dps do less dmg in single target and aoe, but are forced to be melee with no viable shield is insane... Mag do more dmg single target, from ranged... with shields? LOL. Another massive issue is if you do not have bis vma weapons as a stam dps don't even try to compete... The reliability on those weapons to do anything close to the dmg mag does is crazy. Meanwhile, you can wear purple poorly traited bsw/llambis with 3 infal/moon + crafted staves and still outperform bis all gold gear stam in every way possible.

Recap:

Thieves guild and dark brotherhood : Stam dps due to MASSIVE single target advantage

1 Tamriel : All trials = Mag dps. Stam single target not nearly as OP as it was. The survivability of shields (15-19k fake health) and massive aoe dmg compared to stam is undeniable.
vDSA + vMA = Stam sorcs (hurricane + crit surge ftw)

Homestead:
Anything pve related = Mag dps. Now have more single target than stam, while at range and having shields. Aoe also still massive dmg compared to stam.

LIGHT ARMOR = 2200 spell crit and 4900 spell penetration. Wearing only 5 pieces of light, gaining the undaunted bonuses from having 1 medium 1 heavy.

MEDIUM ARMOR =
2300 weapon crit and 12% weapon damage. Wearing 7 medium pieces, gaining no undaunted bonus.

Keep in mind penetration is by far the BIGGEST META thing in end game pve. 12% weapon damage does nothing compared to shredding armor resistances by 4900.

So stamina has a tiny crit advantage, with no undaunted bonuses resulting in much lower stat pools. No penetration bonus, vs a massive 4900 pen bonus light is getting... When pen is like the most important thing in end game pve content.

Now of course there are going to be people posting stuff like hey wait wait! There was a stam sorc in this #2 world score AA run check it out bla bla bla. Thats great. The sheer fact is stamina dps is gone. 95% of high score competitive pve runs have mag only dps. The 2 MASSIVE reasons are very clear, shields and aoe dmg. Mag can survive so much more that stam toons can from shields, which is essential for score runs. Vitality bonuses are a must. The fact that stam toons can only pull about 70% of the damage mag toons can in aoe trash packs is ridiculous. Single target damage is actually pretty close. No insanely large gap like the aoe advantage mag has. In all honesty though, 90% of all pve content is aoe in this game. I am well aware that balancing is very hard due to pvp... I HAVE SOLUTIONS.

How to fix?

1. Give stam toons a viable shield for pve. Whats the biggest issue, pvp right? AIGHT... buff bone shield, but have 1 morph only working in pve environment. Example having battle spirit nerf it big time.
2. Stam needs to be at least around the same ballpark for aoe dmg as mag is. Right now stam isn't even in the same city as mag. Endless hail radius/dmg increased? Blade cloak actually doing damage, instead of a tiny tick every 3 seconds? Change the 2nd morph of lacerate that literally .01% of the population uses... Thrive in chaos? That morph is so unused... Could easily change it to an ability closer to destro ult? Massive aoe dmg.
3. Single target? It's pretty close tbh, undoing the trap nerf and possibly buffing rending slashes or poison injection a bit wouldn't hurt.
4. Change the medium armor passive agility to 4900 penetration, instead of 12% weapon damage.
5. Possibly make certain mobs with very large spell resistances? Along with other mobs with very large physical resistances? Having all mobs at 18.2k resistances is just lazy. That way if there are massive differences in damage due to horrible balancing attempts, there would still be a reason to have some stamina around. I mean honestly stamina have only been in competitive trials for 2 patches out of the last 3 years. There should be certain things that magicka do really well at, along with certain things stamina excel at. This would give much more complexity and strategy for top tier leaderboard scores, in my opinion.

I have spoken with a handful of the testers that went out to zos a month or so ago. Most of the top tier pve guys did in fact let zos know about how rare/extinct stamina dps are for pve content. Zos knows, they have heard. Whether they listen, that is another story. Inviting a bunch of top tier players from all over tamriel to help with testing was one of the best things Zos could do. I realllllllly hope they listen to those people with massive amounts of experience, and have #1 leaderboard scores every patch. Morrowind is a massive launch for acquiring new people to the game. We should really consider letting them choose between stamina and magicka. All the community asks for is balance, neither one should have the huge advantages/disadvantages that we have seen the last few years. Its time to stop putting more tiaras and eyelashes in the crown store for a bit, and balance this games pve content!

Apparently the solution regarding stamina being extinct from PVE was to buff caltrops. Great, single target damage will go up by 2k (if we can somehow sustain that ability now), and I'm sure it will double stam's current AOE/cleave damage (sarcasm).
1m9mn4.jpg
Edited by Shadzilla on May 13, 2017 9:20PM
  • imnotanother
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    Good post.

    I mainly play a Stamina Nightblade. Once upon a time, he was a trial beast...now he hits like a wet noodle.
    PS4: NA - AD PSN: imnotanother (Artell Lyeselle)
    Stamina NightBlade 810+ CP - PvP/Trials/Dungeon Ready
  • NewBlacksmurf
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    It would seem it's by design

    Notice the warden will have a balance for morphs so perhaps in the future by 2018 other classes may be touch upon but I think it's extremely unrealistic for 2017 and especially unrealistic for Morrowind.
    -PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
    ~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *501
  • Edziu
    Edziu
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    It would seem it's by design

    Notice the warden will have a balance for morphs so perhaps in the future by 2018 other classes may be touch upon but I think it's extremely unrealistic for 2017 and especially unrealistic for Morrowind.

    yeah...whiel 1 morpgh add next nice effect into magica morph and stamina morph only converting this skill to scale from stamina, weapon dmg etc without any more bonuses which are going into mag morph.....#Balanced
  • Shadzilla
    Shadzilla
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    It would seem it's by design

    Notice the warden will have a balance for morphs so perhaps in the future by 2018 other classes may be touch upon but I think it's extremely unrealistic for 2017 and especially unrealistic for Morrowind.

    It is by design. It's been like this for 90% of the games existence. There really should not be that massive of gaps between magicka and stamina. The biggest problem is that they do not play their own game. Really hope zos listen to all the pros who went there for a week and let them know all these issues.
  • souravami
    souravami
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    Inb4 they buff the *** out of stamina like they did during db.
    And the cycle continues.
    PC NA
    vMOL. vAA HM. vHRC HM. vSO HM. vMA on every single class.
    "A game should be fun to play. Balance always comes second."
  • IronCrystal
    IronCrystal
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    While I agree that stam is not like seen anywhere in end game trials, I think stam DK still pulls higher single target DPS, but they have survivability issues.
    Make PC NA raiding great again!

    Down with drama!


    What Mechanics Healer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer

    Homestead Raid Scores
    vHRC 157,030
    vAA 138,287
    vSO 153,393
    vMoL 154,550

    Not raiding in Morrowind
  • LorDrek
    LorDrek
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    All stamina need mre stamina class skills.
    Imperial DK stamDPS, Nord DK magTANK
    YDoA CZ/SK Guild
    @LorDrek
  • R1DD1CK
    R1DD1CK
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    I guess they ''will keep the ball rolling '' so probably ''no ETA'' on this one atm .
  • Tommy_The_Gun
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    I totally agree with you. Stamina is weaker - and it simply make no seance. If you have for example a NB that has no dmg shield and you are forced to 1 - 2 shot you target in order to survive / heal - then what is the point of this class if mag build (especially mag sorcerers) do more dmg from a distance (and with a dmg shield) ?! This is not only PvE issue. The real problems start in PvP. Stamina builds used to be good - and this is probably the reason why they are not anymore - in PvP people complained about it, so it was nerfed.

    PvP in ungodly unbalanced - we know that. 90% of cyrodiil PvP pollution are mag sorcerers for a reason (btw. what kind of class balance it is ?! ). Stamina in pvp is always weaker (even if you go for NB/race combo).

    Now...lets take a look at mobas games (basically it is cyro PvP but with a much smaller scale - instead of 50 vs 50 you have 5 vs 5 with a preset of balanced skills for certain character). What is the biggest difference aside from that ?

    Only stamina can crit. Magicka is mostly AOE with higher dmg, but with 0% crit chance. Only stamina (most often single - target) can crit. This is the reason why mobas are "better" balanced.

    If I have a single target skill that deals the same dmg as an AOE dmg (yes everybody in certain area is getting hit for the same dmg as if 10 different people attacked them separately). What is the point of high singe target dmg when you have AOE that deal more dmg I ask ? It just make no seance...
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on April 9, 2017 10:39AM
  • OrphanHelgen
    OrphanHelgen
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    I have played stamina DK since release of this game as a main. I have tried almost every build and setup possible. I got some very good results on my best tests, and can pull good dmg.
    But yesterday, I logged to my sorc and did vmol on it for the first time. I had twice the dmg on every mob pack, and 10k more on rakkath and same single target from range without trap or guard. Again, I will repeat, I have not played sorc in 1,5 years and I pull these numbers.

    It was fun, finally I saw some character progress. But for my main stamina DK, the fact that I gained 39 more cp in a new patch and lost 3-4k dps, are not a nice "progression" feeling in this game. I simply don't enjoy anymore. And I don't like logging to alts to perform better. I have no problem with other classes being better in some situations the others, but this kind of dps, was just sick.
    Edited by OrphanHelgen on April 9, 2017 12:21PM
    PC, EU server, Ebonheart Pact


    Finally a reason not to play League of Legends
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    While I agree that stam is not like seen anywhere in end game trials, I think stam DK still pulls higher single target DPS, but they have survivability issues.

    Pet Sorc can pull very very close if not higher, IMO.
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
    #MoreDPSthanYou
    #Stamblade
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    I totally agree with you. Stamina is weaker - and it simply make no seance. If you have for example a NB that has no dmg shield and you are forced to 1 - 2 shot you target in order to survive / heal - then what is the point of this class if mag build (especially mag sorcerers) do more dmg from a distance (and with a dmg shield) ?! This is not only PvE issue. The real problems start in PvP. Stamina builds used to be good - and this is probably the reason why they are not anymore - in PvP people complained about it, so it was nerfed.

    PvP in ungodly unbalanced - we know that. 90% of cyrodiil PvP pollution are mag sorcerers for a reason (btw. what kind of class balance it is ?! ). Stamina in pvp is always weaker (even if you go for NB/race combo).

    Now...lets take a look at mobas games (basically it is cyro PvP but with a much smaller scale - instead of 50 vs 50 you have 5 vs 5 with a preset of balanced skills for certain character). What is the biggest difference aside from that ?

    Only stamina can crit. Magicka is mostly AOE with higher dmg, but with 0% crit chance. Only stamina (most often single - target) can crit. This is the reason why mobas are "better" balanced.

    If I have a single target skill that deals the same dmg as an AOE dmg (yes everybody in certain area is getting hit for the same dmg as if 10 different people attacked them separately). What is the point of high singe target dmg when you have AOE that deal more dmg I ask ? It just make no seance...

    You're crazy if you consider magicka sorc is the best class in PvP. The best ones are still Stam DK, Sorc and Templar for most stuff. Mag Sorc is way harder to play and you'll never get kills as easily. There's a reason why 90% of the sorcs you see are complete trash.
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
    #MoreDPSthanYou
    #Stamblade
  • Stamden
    Stamden
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    The problem is, medium armor passives are really weak. Until those get looked at Stamina will always be pretty mediocre.
    PC NA

    ~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~
  • Edziu
    Edziu
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    Neighbor wrote: »
    The problem is, medium armor passives are really weak. Until those get looked at Stamina will always be pretty mediocre.

    if you can look in pve dps its not much matter difference between light and medium armor for dps, skills are big difference and in pvp with armor is similiar, medium and light armor are similiar weak in compare ot heavy
  • Stamden
    Stamden
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    Edziu wrote: »
    Neighbor wrote: »
    The problem is, medium armor passives are really weak. Until those get looked at Stamina will always be pretty mediocre.

    if you can look in pve dps its not much matter difference between light and medium armor for dps, skills are big difference and in pvp with armor is similiar, medium and light armor are similiar weak in compare ot heavy

    Light armor gets better passives then medium. Light armor gets free pen, compared to medium that just gets some cheesy detection area radius. Sprint cost and roll dodge reduction aren't particularly strong either.
    PC NA

    ~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~
  • Strider_Roshin
    Strider_Roshin
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    I don't know man, ZOS really showed how much they hated stam whenever they nerfed Bombard, and didn't touch Shattering Prison. The fact that they made the Cliff Racer undodgeable, but still block-able and shield-able isn't really a good indicator that they've changed their ways either.
    Edited by Strider_Roshin on April 9, 2017 12:03PM
  • Shadzilla
    Shadzilla
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    While I agree that stam is not like seen anywhere in end game trials, I think stam DK still pulls higher single target DPS, but they have survivability issues.

    Lol I'm not sure who you raid with, or what your parses are. I can assure you, that stam dk gets vastly outperformed by mag sorc/dk in SINGLE TARGET fully buffed trial bosses.
  • Shadzilla
    Shadzilla
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    I have played stamina DK since release of this game as a main. I have tried almost every build and setup possible. I got some very good results on my best tests, and can pull good dmg.
    But yesterday, I logged to my sorc and did vmol on it for the first time. I had twice the dmg on every mob pack, and 10k more on rakkath and same single target from range without trap or guard. Again, I will repeat, I have not played sorc in 1,5 years and I pull these numbers.

    It was fun, finally I saw some character progress. But for my main stamina DK, the fact that I gained 39 more cp in a new patch and lost 3-4k dps, are not a nice "progression" feeling in this game. I simply don't enjoy anymore. And I don't like logging to alts to perform better. I have no problem with other classes being better in some situations the others, but this kind of dps, was just sick.

    This is exactly what I am talking about. I have mained a stamblade for over 3 years, since beta... Only mag class I had until a month ago was magblade, which has been shelfed for years. The insanely low damage output of all my stam toons made me grind up a mag sorc recently. No undaunted passives, *** traited bsw/llambris with 3 infal and crafted staves... All purple gear and a rotation that I got from a @YoloWizard youtube video that I completely suck at... Started pulling double the damage in trash packs and easily outparsing single target fights AT RANGE, NOT MELEE, WITH 15K SHIELDS. The massive difference between mag and stam in end game pve has to stop. It is not this hard to balance this game better. They need to listen to the testers that went out there that actually play the game...
    Edited by Shadzilla on April 9, 2017 7:31PM
  • idk
    idk
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    Humm.

    Bow does solid damage and that was pointed out to @Avran_Sylt in the bow thread he linked. 39k single target unbuffed is not to shabby. Can probably breach 50k in on a trial boss. The ranged issue is not put to rest.

    Also have seen stam hit 55k in vMoL. Again, not to bad, granted it is not 60k+ but stam lacks good aoe damage as part of their single target build. That is a big part of the difference, damage to the adds.

    Further, Vigor is basically required for any stam build interested in serious raiding just like a shield is used for magika.
    Edited by idk on April 9, 2017 7:35PM
  • IronCrystal
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    Shadzilla wrote: »
    While I agree that stam is not like seen anywhere in end game trials, I think stam DK still pulls higher single target DPS, but they have survivability issues.

    Lol I'm not sure who you raid with, or what your parses are. I can assure you, that stam dk gets vastly outperformed by mag sorc/dk in SINGLE TARGET fully buffed trial bosses.

    Stam DK definitely has one of the highest parses right now. Maybe Pet sorc is about the same. Issue is they can't survive and are melee.
    Make PC NA raiding great again!

    Down with drama!


    What Mechanics Healer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer

    Homestead Raid Scores
    vHRC 157,030
    vAA 138,287
    vSO 153,393
    vMoL 154,550

    Not raiding in Morrowind
  • Shadzilla
    Shadzilla
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    Shadzilla wrote: »
    While I agree that stam is not like seen anywhere in end game trials, I think stam DK still pulls higher single target DPS, but they have survivability issues.

    Lol I'm not sure who you raid with, or what your parses are. I can assure you, that stam dk gets vastly outperformed by mag sorc/dk in SINGLE TARGET fully buffed trial bosses.

    Stam DK definitely has one of the highest parses right now. Maybe Pet sorc is about the same. Issue is they can't survive and are melee.

    That is the biggest issue, considering they are doing less damage single target but are forced to be melee without any shields. The second biggest issue is doing half the aoe damage that mag does in trash packs, considering 90% of this game is aoe.
  • Anhedonie
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    I disagree with shield stuff. More evasion and mitigation mechanics (see bladed cloak) wouldn't hurt though.
    And yeah, several stamina dots are really bad. Like rendering slashes or noxious breath.
    Edited by Anhedonie on April 9, 2017 8:24PM
    Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.
  • Sinolai
    Sinolai
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    I totally agree with you. Stamina is weaker - and it simply make no seance. If you have for example a NB that has no dmg shield and you are forced to 1 - 2 shot you target in order to survive / heal - then what is the point of this class if mag build (especially mag sorcerers) do more dmg from a distance (and with a dmg shield) ?! This is not only PvE issue. The real problems start in PvP. Stamina builds used to be good - and this is probably the reason why they are not anymore - in PvP people complained about it, so it was nerfed.

    PvP in ungodly unbalanced - we know that. 90% of cyrodiil PvP pollution are mag sorcerers for a reason (btw. what kind of class balance it is ?! ). Stamina in pvp is always weaker (even if you go for NB/race combo).

    Now...lets take a look at mobas games (basically it is cyro PvP but with a much smaller scale - instead of 50 vs 50 you have 5 vs 5 with a preset of balanced skills for certain character). What is the biggest difference aside from that ?

    Only stamina can crit. Magicka is mostly AOE with higher dmg, but with 0% crit chance. Only stamina (most often single - target) can crit. This is the reason why mobas are "better" balanced.

    If I have a single target skill that deals the same dmg as an AOE dmg (yes everybody in certain area is getting hit for the same dmg as if 10 different people attacked them separately). What is the point of high singe target dmg when you have AOE that deal more dmg I ask ? It just make no seance...

    You're crazy if you consider magicka sorc is the best class in PvP. The best ones are still Stam DK, Sorc and Templar for most stuff. Mag Sorc is way harder to play and you'll never get kills as easily. There's a reason why 90% of the sorcs you see are complete trash.

    SPAM MAGE'S WRATH ON EVERYTHING!! STEAL ALL THE KILLS!! And if things look ugly for you, STREAK BACK TO THE BACK LINE AND RUN LIKE A STORM!!
    But yeah, they are not that strong in 1 vs 1 :tongue: Claiming you never get kills as MagSorc however is ***. They also have the best mobility of all classes.
  • usmcjdking
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    Stam has no identity in PVE. It has no job, there is no worth to stamina right now.

    @ZOS_RichLambert and his team need to build an identity for stamina in PVP and PVE because it legit has no role in anything other than it looks cool. This doesn't necessarily mean just nerfing magicka back to stam levels, but it does mean stam needs it's own seperate identity apart from the "shared dps" pool of stam & mag.
    Edited by usmcjdking on April 9, 2017 10:58PM
    0331
    0602
  • Kneighbors
    Kneighbors
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    I worry about people who expecting too much from Morrowind. You gotta get really sad when you will get the "product".

    My best bet would be is they will nerf magicka to the levels of stamina in PvE. But expecting them to buff stamina is pretty long shot.
  • NewBlacksmurf
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    Shadzilla wrote: »
    It would seem it's by design

    Notice the warden will have a balance for morphs so perhaps in the future by 2018 other classes may be touch upon but I think it's extremely unrealistic for 2017 and especially unrealistic for Morrowind.

    It is by design. It's been like this for 90% of the games existence. There really should not be that massive of gaps between magicka and stamina. The biggest problem is that they do not play their own game. Really hope zos listen to all the pros who went there for a week and let them know all these issues.

    Actually it should have gaps as stamina isn't a dmg resource only. It's also block, dodge, sprint so because they tried to keep the TES base there should be a gap. In my opinion there would be more balance if they actually set the game like TES so to base weapon dmg on.....light and heavy attacks and magic based on...casting while a staff would just have charges and remove all the other MMO stuff that would resolve all the problems.

    It's a drastic change but that's really the only balance opportunity cause as is....it looks like TES but doesn't play like any TES in terms of combat.

    I'm not sure why everyone is blind to the fact that ZOS was making an MMO game and it had no appeal so they asked to use TES brand. That's all this is. MMO #101 with a TES skin
    Edited by NewBlacksmurf on April 10, 2017 1:43AM
    -PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
    ~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *501
  • Shadzilla
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Stam has no identity in PVE. It has no job, there is no worth to stamina right now.

    @ZOS_RichLambert and his team need to build an identity for stamina in PVP and PVE because it legit has no role in anything other than it looks cool. This doesn't necessarily mean just nerfing magicka back to stam levels, but it does mean stam needs it's own seperate identity apart from the "shared dps" pool of stam & mag.

    100% agree with this. Right now mag vastly outperforms stam in every aspect. Single target, AOE, survivability and utility. They need to do something to stamina to make it even remotely plausible for PVE content. It has been so extinct in PVE for so much of this games lifespan, its embarrassing.
  • sneakymitchell
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    Or just buff heavy armor so that way any magic or stam can use it for DPS. Game lacks variety. We always see the same thing everyone else is running. Skills, sets, and weapons.
    NA-Xbox one- Ebonheart Pact- Nord Tank DK
    PC-NA Ebonheart Pact Nord Stam Templar
  • fosokles
    fosokles
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    Nice post
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