Idea - A Way to Make the Bow More Than Just a Back Bar Skill

Avran_Sylt · April 2017

Here's the Idea:

Remove Scatter Shot, replace with the skill "Power Draw"
Snipe becomes the 5th level ability in the bow skill once again. Poison Arrow becomes the 3rd Ability. Power Draw becomes the 1st Ability
Snipe now grants Major Brutality

Power Draw - Overdraw your bow to deal a high damage shot at close range. 0.6 Channel duration (In effect becoming the weapon class spammable)

Morph 1: Auger
Now deals damage to enemies in a line

Morph 2: Excessive Draw
Your Arrow Splinters upon impact, dealing less initial damage, but causing the enemy to bleed over 4 seconds.

Comments? Ideas? Suggestions?

MCBIZZLE300 · April 2017

You can use bows on both bars, one for damage and one for bufs and DOT'S.

Vapirko · April 2017

Not if you want to compete with endgame dps

Jitterbug · April 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Remove Scatter Shot

Comments? Ideas? Suggestions?

Yes. Don't do that. Scatter Shot is a unique ability that lends a lot of viability to bow builds in PvP. The only other ranged hard CC I can think of is flame clench. It's a must have skill in all my bow builds.

Edit: A way to make bow a possible front bar weapon is to roll a Warden and spam Cliff Racers.

SodanTok · April 2017

It is ranged weapon.
Wasting time making suggestions to stupid melee skill in a way that keeps it being stupidly melee and even lose CC properties is lets say pointless.

Even if it is the worst CC in the game, it is still the only stam (or at least cheap) CC you can have as bow user on any class.

ArchMikem · April 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Power Draw - Overdraw your bow to deal a high damage shot at close range. 0.6 Channel duration (In effect becoming the weapon class spammable)

Morph 1: Auger
Now deals damage to enemies in a line

Morph 2: Excessive Draw
Your Arrow Splinters upon impact, dealing less initial damage, but causing the enemy to bleed over 4 seconds.

Both of those Morphs are undesirable. The first sounds specific to certain conditions, it would only be most effective during fights with multiple mobs and if they conveniently filter into stack in front of you, which would rarely ever happen.

The second is sacrificing damage, and a four second bleed isn't very long at all unless the damage over time was substantial. Besides that bleeding debuff doesn't fit well with spammables, (which is what Poison Arrow does already anyway though..) Maybe the splintered Arrow could give a Major Fracture debuff?

stevepdodson_ESO888 · April 2017

new bow melee skills...
Clobber - when close to the enemy hit him over the head with your bow
morph 1 - Bowl Over - swing bow in an arc to know over multiple enemies
morph 2 - Split Skull - hit the enemy so hard you smash their skull open

Knee Shot - yes you can tell what's coming here the rest I will leave to your imagination

Avran_Sylt · April 2017

@ArchMikem
Fair enough, and I actually like the idea of a bow spammable applying major fracture. 2H has one that stuns (defensive) or grants empower (Offensive), Dual wield has one that deals more damage (offensive) or heals (Defensive), so bow could have one that reduces target armor(Offensive)... and perhaps....
@Jitterbug
Knocks enemies back? (Defensive)

Changing the auger morph to be "Excessive Draw" - now knocks enemies back, reduced range (Current Scatter Shot range)
renaming the Current Excessive shot to be "Power Draw" - Applies Major Fracture , More range than the current Scatter Shot
and renaming the initial skill to be "Full Draw" More range than the current Scatter Shot

technohic · April 2017

Just need a good spammable. Maybe as simple as taking acid spray and in stead of a slow and DOT, reduce the cost and increase the damage

Avran_Sylt · April 2017

@technohic

Yeah, though that falls under the AoE spammable which both Dual wield (Whirlwind) and 2H (Cleave) even Destro (Wall of Ele) already have. What it needs is a single target spammable. 2H has Uppercut, DW has Flurry, Destro has Force Shock. You could argue that Snipe is the spammable, but that in itself has a 1.1 second cast time (and if you note that the 2H spammable is also 1 sec cast time, you're right, I mention that in my Idea to make the 2H more viable in PvE and balanced in PvP) It also lacks any kind of Major Brutality buff which both 2H and DW have.

Vercingetorix · April 2017

Honestly, the solution is to diversify the weapon skill lines. For example, there could be both a Longbow and a Shortbow skill line. One can focus on short-range damage and buffs, while the other can focus on long-range damage and DoTs. This change would allow Rangers to have a bar to handle melee-range pressure and a bar to focus on long-range DPS boss fights. Each skill line would have its place in PvP. Shortbows would be ideal in IC and Sewers, giving players better options for CQ fights. Longbows would be better suited for open-world PvP, allowing for the current option of engaging enemies at range.

Staves suffer from this issue as well: Adding an Alteration Staff and Illusion Staff skill line would add FAR more variety to combat. Alteration could focus on buffs and utility spells, while Illusion Staff would focus on CC-effects and debuffs.

idk · April 2017

@Avran_Sylt

How builds have hit as high as 38-39k unbuffed with the current game design. That's a pure bow build. A bow on both bars.

Is that not good enough?

Avran_Sylt · April 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Is that using a bow spammable ability as the main source of damage? or is it just using the DoTs to gain extra damage/proc sets?
(If you could link to an example it'd be appreciated)

Avran_Sylt · April 2017

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Honestly, the solution is to diversify the weapon skill lines. For example, there could be both a Longbow and a Shortbow skill line. One can focus on short-range damage and buffs, while the other can focus on long-range damage and DoTs. This change would allow Rangers to have a bar to handle melee-range pressure and a bar to focus on long-range DPS boss fights. Each skill line would have its place in PvP. Shortbows would be ideal in IC and Sewers, giving players better options for CQ fights. Longbows would be better suited for open-world PvP, allowing for the current option of engaging enemies at range.

Staves suffer from this issue as well: Adding an Alteration Staff and Illusion Staff skill line would add FAR more variety to combat. Alteration could focus on buffs and utility spells, while Illusion Staff would focus on CC-effects and debuffs.

Yeah that would be interesting. Though I'd actually prefer to see staves as a damage focus, and allow utility spells to be cast without the need for a staff.

Kodrac · April 2017

Snipe should be the bow's execute and poison arrow should be the spammable. They have these 2 totally backwards.

Narvuntien · April 2017

I think not having a way to gain major brutality is a major problem so yeah that would really help however you get that in there. Minor would be even better because then I could stack it.

Snipe has a really long cast time, which makes it really terrible for DPS. Then the next best abilities are damage over time based.

Poison arrow is the most spammable skill for the bow, I am constantly using it as basically "cast arrow" then immediatelly following it with a light attack and repeat.

The bow really suffers from the lack of utility, needs better heal (it is tied to the knockback that doesn't work against too many things) and a lot more buffs available.

TheStealthDude · April 2017

I have come to think that the Bow suffers from the same problem that 2H does for PvE: the lack of a spammable attack that can be weaved effectively in a rotation. Snipe is supposed to be that skill, but it is inherently a DPS loss to use. Fix that by changing Snipe and you might have a better competing PRIMARY weapon with the bow.

technohic · April 2017

I do kind of like your original idea 1st morph for scatter shot outside of it removing the KB and disorient. Maybe increase the range but then the KB/Disorrient only applies with the target within 10 meters

SodanTok · April 2017

Lets not forget there are other skills in the game, other than bow skills.

It does not need major brutality, you get it from class and pots. What could use better source of major brutality is directly nightblade class.
It does not need major fracture. It has Minor and classes like NB and Warden have ranged Major already (DK have same range like current Scatter Shot).
It does not need better heal. Obviously good heal is always fine, but healing is not what makes bow worse over other choices.

There are only 2 big things that it lacks:

Spammable ranged (obviously) attack - Currently only Warden can supplement that
Ranged CC - Currently no class have stamina ranged CC. All melee builds supplement it with gap closer + cc.

Avran_Sylt · April 2017

@sodantokb16_ESO
Nightblades get Major Brutality from the Drain Power skill. which has both a magicka and stamina morph.

Major and Minor fracture differentiate the Bow class a bit more by allowing it to have both (piercing arrows if you will). Dual wield has the ability to have 2 5 peice sets, an additional enchantment on the offhand, and has several dots (shared with bow). 2H has empowerd abilities, high damage attacks and an execute (shared with DW's innate execute on all skills). I think Ranged should be more than just: is ranged. and share increased armor penetration, along with the current empowered tpye attacks it currently shares with 2H.

Yeah, seeing as the bow is ranged, don't really think it needs a heal.

def. see an issue with warden supplementing the ranged spammable.

True, it doesn't. though the bow also has a short range immobilize and the knockback (reintroduced in another variation of Power Draw (now Full Draw)).

SodanTok · April 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@sodantokb16_ESO
Nightblades get Major Brutality from the Drain Power skill. which has both a magicka and stamina morph.

Major and Minor fracture differentiate the Bow class a bit more by allowing it to have both (piercing arrows if you will). Dual wield has the ability to have 2 5 peice sets, an additional enchantment on the offhand, and has several dots (shared with bow). 2H has empowerd abilities, high damage attacks and an execute (shared with DW's innate execute on all skills). I think Ranged should be more than just: is ranged. and share increased armor penetration, along with the current empowered tpye attacks it currently shares with 2H.

Yeah, seeing as the bow is ranged, don't really think it needs a heal.

def. see an issue with warden supplementing the ranged spammable.

True, it doesn't. though the bow also has a short range immobilize and the knockback (reintroduced in another variation of Power Draw (now Full Draw)).

The thing is, PvE wise, you wont make it any more attractive by giving it debuff (Fracture) most classes already have and therefore most groups already apply. In PvP it could have its uses but it would never be more attractive over (properly ranged) CC.

Bow has short range knockback, which is exactly the second biggest problem of bow in PVP. It is CC broken by nonstop present DoT used from melee range (hint: your passive increases damage by range; second hint: you also fight ranged enemies; third hint: you dont use gapclosers, therefore as ranged build you are literally worst build against other ranged builds). Check My old post about this issue

davey1107 · April 2017

Even better:

Slam your enemy with an upward swing of your bow, dealing XX physical damage. Grants empower for five seconds, increasing next attack by 20%.

I call this ability "Wrecking Bow"

Avran_Sylt · April 2017

@sodantokb16_ESO

Hmm, fair enough.
How would your opinion change if the stun were to be removed form 2H, as well as its gapcloser?

SodanTok · April 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@sodantokb16_ESO

Hmm, fair enough.
How would your opinion change if the stun were to be removed form 2H, as well as its gapcloser?

My opinion? I could care less what happens to 2H since I use it just for rally, but MANY (like all of the top playersi n the game) would be very mad if that happend. Charge, blow and rally are the bread and butter of 2H. Maelstorm 2H directly affects the gapcloser.

idk · April 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Is that using a bow spammable ability as the main source of damage? or is it just using the DoTs to gain extra damage/proc sets?
(If you could link to an example it'd be appreciated)

It's a ranged build that issues mostly bow for damage. bow is ok both bars.

Look in tamrielfoundry.com forums. The nightblade section and look for the bow bow build.

The build uses vMA and master bow but most builds work of that. Without those weapons the damage would be a little less but again, that's the case with most builds.

The NB is best suited for this since they have access to the same damage buff combat prayer offers but I expect someone can modify the build for other classes or at least get an idea to work off of.

Edit: warden looks like it will be well suited for bow as well. At first glance.

STEVIL · April 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Here's the Idea:

Remove Scatter Shot, replace with the skill "Power Draw"
Snipe becomes the 5th level ability in the bow skill once again. Poison Arrow becomes the 3rd Ability. Power Draw becomes the 1st Ability
Snipe now grants Major Brutality
Power Draw - Overdraw your bow to deal a high damage shot at close range. 0.6 Channel duration (In effect becoming the weapon class spammable)

Morph 1: Auger
Now deals damage to enemies in a line

Morph 2: Excessive Draw
Your Arrow Splinters upon impact, dealing less initial damage, but causing the enemy to bleed over 4 seconds.

Comments? Ideas? Suggestions?

Arent there close range stamina based damage producing attacks within many of the classes already?

Bow is not played without a class.

Bow does not need a melee ability added as a spammable.

if a bow user feels the need for a melee dps stamina attack, they need to pick a class and skillset combo that gives them that edge... and... frankly...

when you have passives boosting damage at range for your weapon attacks it seems silly to add in a point blank high damage attack to the weapon line.

How is it in any way better to have you lose a cc or heal so you get a close in damage boost as opposed to swapping to a melee weapon other bar when things get close?

its not.

DW/DW is not as strong as DW/bow.
2H/2H is not as strong as 2H/bow.

Why should bow/bow be as good as either Dw/bow or 2H/bow?

dday3six · April 2017

Bow can't do everything, and still be considered balanced. There are viable, though not absolutely optimal Bow/Bow builds. However Bow is hands down the best support weapon. I view it in a similar vein to Restoration Staff. It's meant to supplemental.

idk · April 2017

dday3six wrote: »

Bow can't do everything, and still be considered balanced. There are viable, though not absolutely optimal Bow/Bow builds. However Bow is hands down the best support weapon. I view it in a similar vein to Restoration Staff. It's meant to supplemental.

@dday3six

Near 40k dps unbuffes isnt good? That probably need 50k, maybe a bit more, in a trial boss fight. For a range build that's not shabby and some fights require some dps to be outside of melee range.

Avran_Sylt · April 2017

@STEVIL

I should mention that this power draw idea works off of the same range as the skill it replaces, though that does give me the idea:
Perhaps it gains increased range, but deals more damage the closer you are to a target to a maximum increase when you are 15m or closer to your target.

as to the question of why should bow/bow be as good as either Dw/bow or 2H/bow I want to ask you this:

why is Dw/2H not as good as Dw/Bow or 2H/Bow when standing right next to an enemy?

I think that Each skill line should have some kind of attack that would allow it to be a good backbarable skill for dps, dependent on distance of course.

I think that each weapon class should have some kind of spammable that makes it okay for DPS, but also unique. Dual wield has one that is great for proc sets, 2H has one that is great for comboing other skills (empower, though that 1s cast time really needs to be reduced), Destro has one that deals good damage and is a variable multitarget spammable. But bow has one (Snipe/Poison Arrow) that either has an increased channel for little damage bonus, or low initial damage that must be waited on to deal much damage. Which Is why I suggest adding in the Power Draw Skill. (though I need to update the main post to reflect current changes)

And each weapon class should have a good DoT that can be back barred. If you're familiar with my 2H post you'll see that I suggested making a new ability that takes up that spot (I kind of want to change it so it also deals more damage to high health targets). DW kind of has it with Twin Slashes, but I think that Twin Slashes needs a buff.

Each one should be able to Self/Self itself while also sliding in various skills from your classes. you being able to mix and match based on your preferred playstyle (though now that I think of it there really should be a longbow and shortbow variant).

DragonBound · April 2017

I know this might be allot more work but it would pay off in the long run if they just focused on having two morphs for pvp and two for pve this would solve allot of issues.

Avran_Sylt · April 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Can you link the 40K dps bow build? I would be interested in looking at it, google search has failed me so far. I want to see what spammable it uses.