Idea - A Way to Make the Bow More Than Just a Back Bar Skill

dday3six

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Bow can't do everything, and still be considered balanced. There are viable, though not absolutely optimal Bow/Bow builds. However Bow is hands down the best support weapon. I view it in a similar vein to Restoration Staff. It's meant to supplemental.

Near 40k dps unbuffes isnt good? That probably need 50k, maybe a bit more, in a trial boss fight. For a range build that's not shabby and some fights require some dps to be outside of melee range.

Yes it's good, that's why I called it "viable", but since DW will get more DPS it's not "absolutely optimal".

dday3six

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Can you link the 40K dps bow build? I would be interested in looking at it, google search has failed me so far. I want to see what spammable it uses.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/noss-bo-bo-stamblade-pve-guide/

That's a good start.

Avran_Sylt

@dday3six
Hmm, interesting, wonder if I can get him to test his rotation rusing golded sharpened bows, rather than the vDSA vMSA bows to get a comparison without those enchants. (mostly since I think having a bow build be viable only when using those enchants seems rather unfair).

SodanTok

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@dday3six
Hmm, interesting, wonder if I can get him to test his rotation rusing golded sharpened bows, rather than the vDSA vMSA bows to get a comparison without those enchants. (mostly since I think having a bow build be viable only when using those enchants seems rather unfair).

Maelstorm bow is probably big factor, but Master isnt than big of deal imho. I myself with worse sets, worse (personal) skill, without berserk and fracture can do over 30k on dummies... as stamsorc (instead of master I have normal bow with weapon damage enchant).
Its more about how snipe isnt very good spammable, how nobody has any idea what can bow/bow do and how ranged magicka is literally better in everything. Less about damage nowadays (at least for anything below veteran trials)

STEVIL

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@STEVIL

I should mention that this power draw idea works off of the same range as the skill it replaces, though that does give me the idea:
Perhaps it gains increased range, but deals more damage the closer you are to a target to a maximum increase when you are 15m or closer to your target.

as to the question of why should bow/bow be as good as either Dw/bow or 2H/bow I want to ask you this:

why is Dw/2H not as good as Dw/Bow or 2H/Bow when standing right next to an enemy?

I think that Each skill line should have some kind of attack that would allow it to be a good backbarable skill for dps, dependent on distance of course.

I think that each weapon class should have some kind of spammable that makes it okay for DPS, but also unique. Dual wield has one that is great for proc sets, 2H has one that is great for comboing other skills (empower, though that 1s cast time really needs to be reduced), Destro has one that deals good damage and is a variable multitarget spammable. But bow has one (Snipe/Poison Arrow) that either has an increased channel for little damage bonus, or low initial damage that must be waited on to deal much damage. Which Is why I suggest adding in the Power Draw Skill. (though I need to update the main post to reflect current changes)

And each weapon class should have a good DoT that can be back barred. If you're familiar with my 2H post you'll see that I suggested making a new ability that takes up that spot (I kind of want to change it so it also deals more damage to high health targets). DW kind of has it with Twin Slashes, but I think that Twin Slashes needs a buff.

Each one should be able to Self/Self itself while also sliding in various skills from your classes. you being able to mix and match based on your preferred playstyle (though now that I think of it there really should be a longbow and shortbow variant).

on the off chance that by "able to"you dont mean "able to" but mean "be competitive with" when you are talking about wpn/wpn same type builds, let me point out the amazingly obvious.

If all the wpn/wpn builds were competitive with the wpn=a/wpn-b builds then why in the world would anyone do more than the one weapon? Why spend double the skills if there is no net gain?

Right now, all the bow/bow. 2h/2h, dw, dw underperfrom compared to dw/bow, 2h/bow and thats just fine becuase of, well, most people know, the latter spent 20ish skill points more.

The more you mover forward in your quest for sameness the more you make your spending choices less meaningful.

As for why DW/2h isn't as good, its because it is mixing two weapon types with different objectives. You combine a burst-utils with a more straight-up sustain DPS and they do not complement each other. Might as well combine them with sword and board or destro staff or peanut butter and motor oil.

2H for burst and solo, DW for systain esp in group with bow as the good swing adder for either (probviding DPS for both thru dots and some burst as well) gives each a good companion.

Each has a place at the end-game table and none is best everywhere and spending 20ish skill points more for a well chosen companion skill line pays off over not and spending them elsewhere.

Smells an awful lot about balance and not about sameness. They also encourge different set choices.

so, win win.

Marktoneth3

in pvp bow is fine

just spam snipe all days

SodanTok

STEVIL wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@STEVIL

I should mention that this power draw idea works off of the same range as the skill it replaces, though that does give me the idea:
Perhaps it gains increased range, but deals more damage the closer you are to a target to a maximum increase when you are 15m or closer to your target.

as to the question of why should bow/bow be as good as either Dw/bow or 2H/bow I want to ask you this:

why is Dw/2H not as good as Dw/Bow or 2H/Bow when standing right next to an enemy?

I think that Each skill line should have some kind of attack that would allow it to be a good backbarable skill for dps, dependent on distance of course.

I think that each weapon class should have some kind of spammable that makes it okay for DPS, but also unique. Dual wield has one that is great for proc sets, 2H has one that is great for comboing other skills (empower, though that 1s cast time really needs to be reduced), Destro has one that deals good damage and is a variable multitarget spammable. But bow has one (Snipe/Poison Arrow) that either has an increased channel for little damage bonus, or low initial damage that must be waited on to deal much damage. Which Is why I suggest adding in the Power Draw Skill. (though I need to update the main post to reflect current changes)

And each weapon class should have a good DoT that can be back barred. If you're familiar with my 2H post you'll see that I suggested making a new ability that takes up that spot (I kind of want to change it so it also deals more damage to high health targets). DW kind of has it with Twin Slashes, but I think that Twin Slashes needs a buff.

Each one should be able to Self/Self itself while also sliding in various skills from your classes. you being able to mix and match based on your preferred playstyle (though now that I think of it there really should be a longbow and shortbow variant).

on the off chance that by "able to"you dont mean "able to" but mean "be competitive with" when you are talking about wpn/wpn same type builds, let me point out the amazingly obvious.

If all the wpn/wpn builds were competitive with the wpn=a/wpn-b builds then why in the world would anyone do more than the one weapon? Why spend double the skills if there is no net gain?

Right now, all the bow/bow. 2h/2h, dw, dw underperfrom compared to dw/bow, 2h/bow and thats just fine becuase of, well, most people know, the latter spent 20ish skill points more.

The more you mover forward in your quest for sameness the more you make your spending choices less meaningful.

As for why DW/2h isn't as good, its because it is mixing two weapon types with different objectives. You combine a burst-utils with a more straight-up sustain DPS and they do not complement each other. Might as well combine them with sword and board or destro staff or peanut butter and motor oil.

2H for burst and solo, DW for systain esp in group with bow as the good swing adder for either (probviding DPS for both thru dots and some burst as well) gives each a good companion.

Each has a place at the end-game table and none is best everywhere and spending 20ish skill points more for a well chosen companion skill line pays off over not and spending them elsewhere.

Smells an awful lot about balance and not about sameness. They also encourge different set choices.

so, win win.

I usually try ignore your post, but here I am reminding you that staff/staff builds exist. And bow/2h and bow/DW does not. Here everything you said completly crumbles down on how you have 0 idea what are you talking about. Carry on.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

I don't know what you are talking about. In vMSA the bow is on my front bar and I use dual wield only for bosses.

idk

@Avran_Sylt

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/noss-bo-bo-stamblade-pve-guide/

STEVIL

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@STEVIL

I should mention that this power draw idea works off of the same range as the skill it replaces, though that does give me the idea:
Perhaps it gains increased range, but deals more damage the closer you are to a target to a maximum increase when you are 15m or closer to your target.

as to the question of why should bow/bow be as good as either Dw/bow or 2H/bow I want to ask you this:

why is Dw/2H not as good as Dw/Bow or 2H/Bow when standing right next to an enemy?

I think that Each skill line should have some kind of attack that would allow it to be a good backbarable skill for dps, dependent on distance of course.

I think that each weapon class should have some kind of spammable that makes it okay for DPS, but also unique. Dual wield has one that is great for proc sets, 2H has one that is great for comboing other skills (empower, though that 1s cast time really needs to be reduced), Destro has one that deals good damage and is a variable multitarget spammable. But bow has one (Snipe/Poison Arrow) that either has an increased channel for little damage bonus, or low initial damage that must be waited on to deal much damage. Which Is why I suggest adding in the Power Draw Skill. (though I need to update the main post to reflect current changes)

And each weapon class should have a good DoT that can be back barred. If you're familiar with my 2H post you'll see that I suggested making a new ability that takes up that spot (I kind of want to change it so it also deals more damage to high health targets). DW kind of has it with Twin Slashes, but I think that Twin Slashes needs a buff.

Each one should be able to Self/Self itself while also sliding in various skills from your classes. you being able to mix and match based on your preferred playstyle (though now that I think of it there really should be a longbow and shortbow variant).

on the off chance that by "able to"you dont mean "able to" but mean "be competitive with" when you are talking about wpn/wpn same type builds, let me point out the amazingly obvious.

If all the wpn/wpn builds were competitive with the wpn=a/wpn-b builds then why in the world would anyone do more than the one weapon? Why spend double the skills if there is no net gain?

Right now, all the bow/bow. 2h/2h, dw, dw underperfrom compared to dw/bow, 2h/bow and thats just fine becuase of, well, most people know, the latter spent 20ish skill points more.

The more you mover forward in your quest for sameness the more you make your spending choices less meaningful.

As for why DW/2h isn't as good, its because it is mixing two weapon types with different objectives. You combine a burst-utils with a more straight-up sustain DPS and they do not complement each other. Might as well combine them with sword and board or destro staff or peanut butter and motor oil.

2H for burst and solo, DW for systain esp in group with bow as the good swing adder for either (probviding DPS for both thru dots and some burst as well) gives each a good companion.

Each has a place at the end-game table and none is best everywhere and spending 20ish skill points more for a well chosen companion skill line pays off over not and spending them elsewhere.

Smells an awful lot about balance and not about sameness. They also encourge different set choices.

so, win win.

I usually try ignore your post, but here I am reminding you that staff/staff builds exist. And bow/2h and bow/DW does not. Here everything you said completly crumbles down on how you have 0 idea what are you talking about. Carry on.

What we were talking about were stamina dps builds. try and keep up.

if you want to discuss magica v stamina builds there are threads for that. And the only reason you have destro-destro builds is... pay close attention to it - thats the only primary dps magica weapons there are. IF/when they start splitting ice-light-fire intop three different trees, you will see the bars having different labels. In fact, in many of those magica stafff build you will see light on one and fire on the other to maximize the aoe vs single target for general mauling vs solo execute phases of combat - quite similar in effect to the different weapons working in stamina.

and also bow/dw and bow/2h is the same thing as 2h/bow and 2h/dw - which bar you are on doesn't matter. what matters is what you do when you are on them.

But if you are suggesting we use staff-staff as a relvant issue here - you will note i did mention just reducing 2h/dw to one skill line with animation differences... maybe a few passive differences could be added and we could reduce stamina down to just two skill lines to make them more like the staff you want to use as a pattern for judging stamina weapons?

Amazing... misdirect with the group who just simply dont have the options...

LadyLavina

Loading up Cyrodiil post-patch if bow becomes more than back bar.

Avran_Sylt

@LadyLavina
Lol, yeah, I've got an idea with the Sword/Board skill line that should hopefully cause the shield to be the Bow and Arrow's Foil. (namely reduce block cost when blocking projectiles, as well as further increasing the the amount of projectile damage blocked. changing shield charge to be a running charge that also blocks while running)

ArchMikem

Kodrac wrote: »

Snipe should be the bow's execute and poison arrow should be the spammable. They have these 2 totally backwards.

-Reduce cast time to instant, or at least maybe 0.3 seconds?
-Reduce initial damage to around 6,000.
-Increase damage done by 300% to targets under 25%
-Aaaand for good measure, make it a guaranteed Critical.

That should be pleasing.

Avran_Sylt

ArchMikem wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

Snipe should be the bow's execute and poison arrow should be the spammable. They have these 2 totally backwards.

-Reduce cast time to instant, or at least maybe 0.3 seconds?
-Reduce initial damage to around 6,000.
-Increase damage done by 300% to targets under 25%
-Aaaand for good measure, make it a guaranteed Critical.

That should be pleasing.

Orrrrr, replace the poison status application of lethal arrow, with the Poison DoT Execute of Poison Arrow. and then Rework the Poison Arrow into the new class spammable.

golfer.dub17_ESO

Meanwhile I hate the fact I'm forced to use a bow on my backbar in the first place.

As 2H/DW, 2H/2H, DW/DW, 1HS/2H, 1HS/DW are all unviable combinations for DPS. You either run Bow/2H or Bow/DW, and chances are it's probably Bow/DW.

If bow is capable of standing on its own merits then so too should other weapons be.

Huyen

And this is why the warden is being introduced as a ranged dps-class, that probaly will have skills to counter the downsides of using a bow.

Duiwel

Add an option to have x2 single handed crossbows (for dualwield) which will add an extra 1 set slot.

Avran_Sylt

@golfer.dub17_ESO
Could use some input over here

Anlaemar

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Honestly, the solution is to diversify the weapon skill lines. For example, there could be both a Longbow and a Shortbow skill line. One can focus on short-range damage and buffs, while the other can focus on long-range damage and DoTs. This change would allow Rangers to have a bar to handle melee-range pressure and a bar to focus on long-range DPS boss fights. Each skill line would have its place in PvP. Shortbows would be ideal in IC and Sewers, giving players better options for CQ fights. Longbows would be better suited for open-world PvP, allowing for the current option of engaging enemies at range.

Staves suffer from this issue as well: Adding an Alteration Staff and Illusion Staff skill line would add FAR more variety to combat. Alteration could focus on buffs and utility spells, while Illusion Staff would focus on CC-effects and debuffs.

I semi agree with the long bow and short bow. Staves have two lines (resto/desto), blades have two (duel/2h). However adding more along side those is almost counterproductive. You get buffs/defuffs/CC's from your class skills. That's what makes you unique. If you can fill up your bars and be competitive using only weapon skill lines that are available to everyone, it would take out the reason for even having classes.

botanist92

change focused aim morph of snipe to either:
1) charged shot: same channeling time but arrow flies straight parallel to the ground instead and pierces through to hit all enemies in a straight line. enemies hit will be stunned for 3 secs. has an infinite range and does not need a target to use skill
2) twin shot: removed channeling time. quickly shoots 2 arrows consecutively with each arrow dealing 2/3 of unmorphed snipe's original damage. range is reduced to 20m

change toxic barrage of its ulti into:
1) while channeling rapid fire, you can activate "spriggan" within 2s of channel to end the entire channel (and lose all the damage) to fire a magical arrow to the sky that lands on (set area). the arrow will bloom into a spriggan that taunts enemies within a 10m radius for 20s. spriggan has hp scaled to user's max magicka. spriggan can be healed for 50% of healing heal.

Soleya

Change a morph of scatter shot to rapid fire. A 0.6 second channel firing multiple arrows. Similar to dual wields rapid strikes.

Other morph keeps knock back for pvp.

stephkisten_ESO

Shorten, or remove, cast time on snipe.

Avran_Sylt

@stephkisten_ESO

Only if the damage was reduced, otherwise that'd be too op. Just snipe spam from stealth.