Scatter shot (Magnum/Draining) rant

SodanTok

Probably belongs to Combat & Character Mechanics section, but nobody goes there and this skill and its balance is based purely on PVP.


This skill knocks people in at most 10m range 6m far away and disorients them for 5sec. If they have CC immunity it does nothing. If you have DoT on you, it's just the knockback.

Magnum shot morphs the skill to double knockback. Knocks caster 6m (therefore forces the caster to endure knockback animation) and enemy 6m. At best, creates 12m range gap between attacker and caster. If enemy is CC immune, forces caster to endure knockback animation, while enemy is free to do whatever. Upon landing, creates 6m gap (that was probably already half way reached by approaching CC immune enemy. Gap that with long shots passive increases bow damage by 2.52%. Gap that is less (or barely above) the range of melee skills.

Draining shot morphs the skill to healing ability. Works like scatter shot, except rewards caster with some nice heal (with some average stats, around 2/3 what vigor heals) once disorient ends. Yes, it again does absolutely nothing if enemy is CC immune it DOES NOT even heal.

In short, it is knockback skill with meh bonuses on 10m range.
Let's look how it stands to every other ranged CC:

• Piercing Javelin - stun+knockback - 28m
• Spear Shards - disorient - 28m
• Dragon Leap - stun+knockback - 20-28m
• Stonefist - stun - 28m
• Petrify - disorient/root - 15m
• Crystal Shard - stun - 28m
• Rune Prison - disorient - 28m
• Agony - disorient - 28m
• Crippling Grasp - root - 28m
• Destructive Touch - stun/knockback/root - 17-28m
• Meteor - knockback+stun - 28m
• Drain Essence - stun - 12m - Whaat, you can even feed on enemy from bigger range than arrow shot
• Scatter Shot - disorient+knockback - 10m

Special cases or other position altering skills

• Fiery Grip - pull - 22m
• Every gap closer - 22m
• Bolt Escape - "how much you have magicka to spam it"m

Hard to believe it is ranged skill. It surely must be better than some popular melee CC, right?

• Dizzying Swing - stun+knockback - 7m
• Power Bash - stun - 7m
• Dawnbreaker of S - stun - 10m
• Roar - fear - 8m
• Piercing Howl - knockback+stun - 10m

Wrong. If you don't count 2-3m as something noticeable.
What's more, it is not even affected by range increase from battle spirit and other. Pushing range of all those ranged cc above to some ~40m

• Reach - 5m to abilities with 15m and more
• Propelling Shield - 4m to abilities with 20m and more
• Battle Spirit - 8m to abilities with 28m and more

There are 5 regulars bow skills. One is universally good (poison injection), one is great in PVP while barely used in PvE (Snipe), one PVE only (Volley), one used for trash clear in PVE and completely destroyed by PVP nerf hammer (bombard) and then here is this skill. Completely useless in PvE for anyone who has no problem killing overland mobs and totally worse in PVP than any other similar skill. Basically this is subpar skill taking valuable place on the only stamina ranged weapon in game where there are already barely any stamina ranged skills.

Data may show it is used a lot, your experience may show it. I use it a lot, everyone using bow for more than speed buff is using it. That doesn't mean it is good, only that there aren't better choices for some class+stamina+bow combos.

I am not only saying this skill needs range. I am also saying this skill should be better. It is waste of skill space. Two morphs that are barely better than already bad basic. I would advocate for long range CC on one morph and long range whatever on second. At least one morph should be ranged with whatever effect, but I don't see reason why bow can't have ranged CC.
Structured rant over.


Bonus - dev reasoning for Impale range increase:

Increasing the range on this morph to 28 meters matches the range of other Magicka Nightblade damage abilities such as Strife or Cripple, and makes this morph work cohesively with a ranged ability kit.

tl;dr version

Scatter shot is bad. All ranged CCs have up to 4 times the range usually with better bonus effects. Many melee skills have better effects and same or just slightly worse range.
It should be ranged skill and it shouldn't have 2 bad morphs that barely work.

worsttankever

Wow, I didn't realize that if opponent has cc immunity, you don't get the heal

Disagree about Bombard. Love it. Great spammable AOE.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

That's the main reason I stopped incorporating draining shot into builds. It seemed pointless.

SodanTok

worsttankever wrote: »

Wow, I didn't realize that if opponent doesn't have cc immunity, you don't get the heal

Re: Bombard. Still love it. Great spammabke AOE.

I too still love bombard in pve (the poison morph too, but on stamsorc i prefer phys damage), but in PVP I havent seen people use it at all, partly because encase is just so much better and partly because everybody is snared so it doesnt work most of the time.

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

That's the main reason I stopped incorporating draining shot into builds. It seemed pointless.

I still use it, because people are usually very surprised by it (yes, the best advantage of this skill is how little people know it, because thats how bad it is). Tho I needed to incorporate defensive rune as stamsorc (its not really on demand, but its the only CC when in fight with other ranged) and as NB, might aswell use the fear skill.

kessik221

The problem is that the bow is a niche weapon. It's supposed to be a long range support weapon, and while magnum shot and draining shot do help they are easily outshined by the fact that all melee have gap closers that negate the whole point of the skill. I think the skill would be better if they kept magnum shot but drastically increased its damage and stun duration based on how close you are (shotgun effect) and changed the other one to a heal and root ( roots have no cc immunity).

Waffennacht

Gotta give it up to OP, they make a strong case.

Anti_Virus

Great analysis, I see no reason why scatter shot has such a short range.

Reefo

The disorient from the bow is broke so easily that it grants the target 7 sec immunity as opposed to if they broke free from it and only got what? 5 or 6sec

This skill is only really useful in duels.

Toc de Malsvi

Didn't used to use this skill at all.

During the height of WB spam I would spam Magnum to keep out of WB range, only because a little bit of lag(I always have a lot) and you are up in the air and dead.

Once the heal was fixed for Draining Shot and WB was reined in a bit, I switched to Draining Shot and haven't looked back.


It is core to any PVP archer build, but only because it serves as a much needed stamina utility on a bow bar. It is both one of your biggest heals and your only stamina CC's(albeit calling it a CC could be debated). It is also generally the most responsive bow skill, by a long shot.



Greater range would be nice, a legitimate CC would be better, a reliable heal would also be better.

Also of note, if the target blocks, or absorbs the damage, if you have shuffle or if they break free too quickly, you can totally miss out on the heal.

It only reliably heals when they are for sure disoriented and on the ground with their head in their hands, otherwise its a coin flip.

SodanTok

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Didn't used to use this skill at all.

During the height of WB spam I would spam Magnum to keep out of WB range, only because a little bit of lag(I always have a lot) and you are up in the air and dead.

Once the heal was fixed for Draining Shot and WB was reined in a bit, I switched to Draining Shot and haven't looked back.


It is core to any PVP archer build, but only because it serves as a much needed stamina utility on a bow bar. It is both one of your biggest heals and your only stamina CC's(albeit calling it a CC could be debated). It is also generally the most responsive bow skill, by a long shot.



Greater range would be nice, a legitimate CC would be better, a reliable heal would also be better.

Also of note, if the target blocks, or absorbs the damage, if you have shuffle or if they break free too quickly, you can totally miss out on the heal.

It only reliably heals when they are for sure disoriented and on the ground with their head in their hands, otherwise its a coin flip.

Yeah, if target is CC immune (like permablockers are... permanently) it just semi-expensive meh damage skill with nothing to it. Doing what destro staff gets from passive and free (even resource gaining) more-damaging heavy attack.

The most funny thing about it is that if you play as ranged stamina you have to go to melee range to even attemp to fight ranged magicka and then even if you somehow survive long enough to finally drain them of stamina, you get one free shot every disorient before it breaks and they shield up again.

Curtdogg47

I think OP made some good points here.

t3hdubzy

Good for knocking people pff keeps if u happen o sneak in without them noticing. Otherwise useless imo.

Xvorg

I have a pure archer build that uses draining (magnum messes it up when facing a ball and can potentially send you in middle of the zerg, though the dmg is a little better) the heal is somewhat useful. But both, dmg and CC are crap.

Compared to flame/shock clench, it has nothing to do. Other CC are much stronger, including the one from bombard. In fact, scatter does similar dmg than bombar, though bombard hits multiple targets.

What would I do? I'll take away the knock back, increase the dmg while keeping the range, so it becomes a short range spammable skill. Draining can keep a heal (not the one right now but something similar to strife), while magnum could give a bleed dot.

SodanTok

Xvorg wrote: »

I have a pure archer build that uses draining (magnum messes it up when facing a ball and can potentially send you in middle of the zerg, though the dmg is a little better) the heal is somewhat useful. But both, dmg and CC are crap.

Compared to flame/shock clench, it has nothing to do. Other CC are much stronger, including the one from bombard. In fact, scatter does similar dmg than bombar, though bombard hits multiple targets.

What would I do? I'll take away the knock back, increase the dmg while keeping the range, so it becomes a short range spammable skill. Draining can keep a heal (not the one right now but something similar to strife), while magnum could give a bleed dot.

Glad we agree it is crap, but what you suggested is... any melee weapon skill. No CC, 10m range, heal/bleed? Why not use 2H skills then. The whole point of this thread was how its bad as CC (and should get better) and how it is bad as bow skill (since its ranged weapon benefiting from range).

DeadlyRecluse

The thought process/idea of magnum shot is phenomenal, but it's trivialized by the ubiquity of gap closers--you don't really create space with it unless you manage to hit it just right so you can follow it up with a dodgeroll behind cover.

I wouldn't want to see the self-knockback go away, it's just too unique of an effect, but I agree the skill could use a buff/tweak.

Xvorg

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

I have a pure archer build that uses draining (magnum messes it up when facing a ball and can potentially send you in middle of the zerg, though the dmg is a little better) the heal is somewhat useful. But both, dmg and CC are crap.

Compared to flame/shock clench, it has nothing to do. Other CC are much stronger, including the one from bombard. In fact, scatter does similar dmg than bombar, though bombard hits multiple targets.

What would I do? I'll take away the knock back, increase the dmg while keeping the range, so it becomes a short range spammable skill. Draining can keep a heal (not the one right now but something similar to strife), while magnum could give a bleed dot.

Glad we agree it is crap, but what you suggested is... any melee weapon skill. No CC, 10m range, heal/bleed? Why not use 2H skills then. The whole point of this thread was how its bad as CC (and should get better) and how it is bad as bow skill (since its ranged weapon benefiting from range).

You can easily CC enemies through class skills. Anyway I don't see a bad spot for a short range spamable in a bow... or maybe a midle range one (like arrow spray but single target)

Other suggestion is a different mechanic. Maybe an arrow with a rope as a gap opener (you fire the bow anywhere and puts you 22 mts away from your last position, in the direction you pointed out).

SodanTok

Xvorg wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

I have a pure archer build that uses draining (magnum messes it up when facing a ball and can potentially send you in middle of the zerg, though the dmg is a little better) the heal is somewhat useful. But both, dmg and CC are crap.

Compared to flame/shock clench, it has nothing to do. Other CC are much stronger, including the one from bombard. In fact, scatter does similar dmg than bombar, though bombard hits multiple targets.

What would I do? I'll take away the knock back, increase the dmg while keeping the range, so it becomes a short range spammable skill. Draining can keep a heal (not the one right now but something similar to strife), while magnum could give a bleed dot.

Glad we agree it is crap, but what you suggested is... any melee weapon skill. No CC, 10m range, heal/bleed? Why not use 2H skills then. The whole point of this thread was how its bad as CC (and should get better) and how it is bad as bow skill (since its ranged weapon benefiting from range).

You can easily CC enemies through class skills. Anyway I don't see a bad spot for a short range spamable in a bow... or maybe a midle range one (like arrow spray but single target)

Other suggestion is a different mechanic. Maybe an arrow with a rope as a gap opener (you fire the bow anywhere and puts you 22 mts away from your last position, in the direction you pointed out).

There isnt really many stam based ranged CC and a lot of magicka ones are too expensive to sustain. Bow is range weapon with 5 skills, so it shouldnt have waste one space melee one (like right now). They promised some ranged stam skills with warden, but currently there just arent many.
Tho I like your idea, something like stam streak. They would never implement it unfortunately, "running away" skill on bow would be too easily accessible to every stam build in PVP.

Xvorg

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

I have a pure archer build that uses draining (magnum messes it up when facing a ball and can potentially send you in middle of the zerg, though the dmg is a little better) the heal is somewhat useful. But both, dmg and CC are crap.

Compared to flame/shock clench, it has nothing to do. Other CC are much stronger, including the one from bombard. In fact, scatter does similar dmg than bombar, though bombard hits multiple targets.

What would I do? I'll take away the knock back, increase the dmg while keeping the range, so it becomes a short range spammable skill. Draining can keep a heal (not the one right now but something similar to strife), while magnum could give a bleed dot.

Glad we agree it is crap, but what you suggested is... any melee weapon skill. No CC, 10m range, heal/bleed? Why not use 2H skills then. The whole point of this thread was how its bad as CC (and should get better) and how it is bad as bow skill (since its ranged weapon benefiting from range).

You can easily CC enemies through class skills. Anyway I don't see a bad spot for a short range spamable in a bow... or maybe a midle range one (like arrow spray but single target)

Other suggestion is a different mechanic. Maybe an arrow with a rope as a gap opener (you fire the bow anywhere and puts you 22 mts away from your last position, in the direction you pointed out).

There isnt really many stam based ranged CC and a lot of magicka ones are too expensive to sustain. Bow is range weapon with 5 skills, so it shouldnt have waste one space melee one (like right now). They promised some ranged stam skills with warden, but currently there just arent many.
Tho I like your idea, something like stam streak. They would never implement it unfortunately, "running away" skill on bow would be too easily accessible to every stam build in PVP.

Yeah, I thought it was like a streak spam, nevertheless it doesn't have the stun.

Anyway, I don't see much problem in a build that uses stamina to run away. Can be annoying yes, but as long as it does´t do direct dmg, can be an option

Regarding class CC, I think magicka based are ideal for a stam build that uses that pool for dodge rolling, breaking free, sprinting, blocking and damaging. Now, spamming a CC is a different animal

t3hdubzy

I like the idea of a root, or a shotgun affect.

I wouldnt mind seeing a breif immovable added to it say 1.5 seconds? Stacks up to 3 times. Applies regardless if knock back works or not.

Being a more reliable heal would be great as well.

They could of course make it similar to chains with a push/pull mechanic but with different snare or debuff applied. They could tap into the poison effects slightly to give it a small advantage.


What about a new skill, delayed arrow. Fire one or more arrows into the air that repeatedly hit the target over 3 seconds. Just an idea could probably use some more thought.

KingKalbo

Like the shotgun effect idea. Maybe add an aoe effect like lightening staff heavy and then add a couple extra meters to the self knockback to help with getting distance.

Curtdogg47

i use mag shot as kind of my oh *** skill in PVP! When people gap close me, I usually fear then mag shot. This gives me a little more room to work as a bow build.

Sureshawt

It is actually quite underrated. It is great for knocking back gap closers/gank jumpers. Knocking players off of keeps/rock ledges/bridge is hysterically fun. It is also quite useful for forcing perma blocking to drop or when timed with an ultimate you don't want blocked. The heal is also really good when it works (Draining morph)

I would love to see it buffed though especially the range.

NightbladeMechanics

Saw this in your signature on another post, and it turns out I had the following response already typed out from ages ago... lol

I can get behind buffs, including range buffs, but not beyond 12 or 15 meters. I think it might be too strong beyond that, plus I like the concept of a short ranged projectile designed to create space. Bow is a ranged weapon line, so it makes sense that it would have a skill for repelling melee attackers after they close the gap.

Regarding draining shot, many other ccs don't apply their secondary effects if you cast them on cc immune targets. I don't see why you should get a spammable burst heal against a cc immune target.

I'll add that they do need to fix dodge rolling your own draining shot heal, though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/334051/fyi-you-can-dodge-your-own-draining-shot-heal

SodanTok

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Saw this in your signature on another post, and it turns out I had the following response already typed out from ages ago... lol

I can get behind buffs, including range buffs, but not beyond 12 or 15 meters. I think it might be too strong beyond that, plus I like the concept of a short ranged projectile designed to create space. Bow is a ranged weapon line, so it makes sense that it would have a skill for repelling melee attackers after they close the gap.

Regarding draining shot, many other ccs don't apply their secondary effects if you cast them on cc immune targets. I don't see why you should get a spammable burst heal against a cc immune target.

I'll add that they do need to fix dodge rolling your own draining shot heal, though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/334051/fyi-you-can-dodge-your-own-draining-shot-heal

Wait, so 15m would be strong but 41m on destro reach (or literally 90% of other ranged CC) is... fine?

I agree it would make sense that bow would have skill that creates gap, except this is ESO where gap closers have 22m range, snare you and deal pretty good damage. It does not create meaningful gap. Not to mention casting it on CC immune target is even worse than not using it.

Regarding draining shot, you shouldnt get spammable heal, that wasnt the point. Point was it is bad and unreliable skill. If you look at other CC all of them are better already (as CC), many of them have secondary effects that are better than draining shot heal and work even on CC immune targets. Making it not only very bad skill as CC, but very bad skill overall.

//EDIT:
To be precise. I am all for "nerfs" that would allow it to be ranged. Some may say it flies too fast or is hard to notice? Make it slower and bright as star or whatever. The single biggest point is bow needs CC that reaches people in range and stuns them if they do nothing to counter that. Everything else is less important than that.

Bobby_V_Rockit

10m seems silly short range for a bow, even brawler has 9m range lol. how is this still a thing?

Toc de Malsvi

How is this still a thing Indeed!

artal

I like diversity in builds. So draining shot falls into that, it gives me option of not running 2h in some stamina builds.
So I would highly appreciate if healing bugs were fixed and if it get like 5 m range. But please don't remove healing component for something else.
If target dont have cc imunity heal should proc instantly on hit, not when cc is broken. That way maybe it could be made to be useful on perma blockers. If they dont have cc imunity and get dmged from draining shot give us heal. Don't make cc go through block just give heal.

SodanTok

artal wrote: »

I like diversity in builds. So draining shot falls into that, it gives me option of not running 2h in some stamina builds.
So I would highly appreciate if healing bugs were fixed and if it get like 5 m range. But please don't remove healing component for something else.
If target dont have cc imunity heal should proc instantly on hit, not when cc is broken. That way maybe it could be made to be useful on perma blockers. If they dont have cc imunity and get dmged from draining shot give us heal. Don't make cc go through block just give heal.

Well, this is pretty old thread. Many changes happened since then. The heal is pretty nice now (when it works), I still find stupid how this skill does absolutely nothing against perma blockers (while majority of others does at least something, be it debuff or high damage) and I still cant see any good reason why the range is so short. ZoS offered no explanation (well, they rarely do) of how 10m range skill fits into the kit of long range weapon with one 20m skill and four 28+m skills.

moonio

Its because ZOS hates bow builds.. I mean look what they did to the bow heavy attack mechanic... its completely unplayable now..

artal

SodanTok wrote: »

Well, this is pretty old thread. Many changes happened since then. The heal is pretty nice now (when it works), I still find stupid how this skill does absolutely nothing against perma blockers (while majority of others does at least something, be it debuff or high damage) and I still cant see any good reason why the range is so short. ZoS offered no explanation (well, they rarely do) of how 10m range skill fits into the kit of long range weapon with one 20m skill and four 28+m skills.

Sorry, didn't see someone necroed thread. But heal is still buggy, range is short and permablockers just kills that skill. Thats why I think good solution would be if target don't have cc immunity you get heal when you deal dmg.

I really hate being forced into running 2h in 99% stamina build, that skill gave me bit build freedom (not that it is great) and i often played dw/bow or snb/bow. Which maybe is not ideal but its fun, so any small tweaks to the skill would be more than welcome.

Xvorg

artal wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Well, this is pretty old thread. Many changes happened since then. The heal is pretty nice now (when it works), I still find stupid how this skill does absolutely nothing against perma blockers (while majority of others does at least something, be it debuff or high damage) and I still cant see any good reason why the range is so short. ZoS offered no explanation (well, they rarely do) of how 10m range skill fits into the kit of long range weapon with one 20m skill and four 28+m skills.

Sorry, didn't see someone necroed thread. But heal is still buggy, range is short and permablockers just kills that skill. Thats why I think good solution would be if target don't have cc immunity you get heal when you deal dmg.

I really hate being forced into running 2h in 99% stamina build, that skill gave me bit build freedom (not that it is great) and i often played dw/bow or snb/bow. Which maybe is not ideal but its fun, so any small tweaks to the skill would be more than welcome.

The only use I see for magnum's is in a troll ganking build. For draining shot, it could have certain uses, but the range is so bad, you will be better using vigor.

And even with that, I love the skill... saddly it is in the wrong game...