Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

The problem with hard content is people do tend to start to exclude a lot of people, then wonder why they don't get catered to in any great or meaningful way. Because due to their ways, they become such a small and insignificant part of the game, it's obviously not financially viable to support such a small group of the playing population. They more or less bring it all on themselves, yet blame everyone other than themselves when they get left behind. I mean, include more people in your activities, don't alienate yourselves and you'd stand more of a chance getting the content you want.

Thinking logically, it makes more sense to create dlc/content that the majority will play and use than stuff like the hist dungeons we got. Would most complaining about easy content on here waste a few hours of their life allowing others to run with you or do you just boot those people before coming on here to complain about the amount of scrubs you encounter whilst waiting to create a group for dlc dungeon groups? Or is it just a case of someone else should put all the time and effort in to allowing others to learn the ropes whilst you just sit back and reap all the rewards?

People who love difficult content and think nothing of excluding others have no one other than themselves to blame for the amount of easy content in the game. Can't have it both ways.

An added choice of two difficulty levels for overworld quests would exclude no-one. Those who want choose harder difficulty, those who do not, choose the normal one. Even on the same day, one might choose between one and the other.

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

The problem with hard content is people do tend to start to exclude a lot of people, then wonder why they don't get catered to in any great or meaningful way. Because due to their ways, they become such a small and insignificant part of the game, it's obviously not financially viable to support such a small group of the playing population. They more or less bring it all on themselves, yet blame everyone other than themselves when they get left behind. I mean, include more people in your activities, don't alienate yourselves and you'd stand more of a chance getting the content you want.

Thinking logically, it makes more sense to create dlc/content that the majority will play and use than stuff like the hist dungeons we got. Would most complaining about easy content on here waste a few hours of their life allowing others to run with you or do you just boot those people before coming on here to complain about the amount of scrubs you encounter whilst waiting to create a group for dlc dungeon groups?

People who love difficult content and think nothing of excluding others have no one other than themselves to blame for the amount of easy content in the game. Can't have it both ways.

I'm not sure OP is asking for crazy difficult content, he/she is simply pointing out that a lot of the fights/mobs in the game ARE incredibly easy. I mean, I'm personally in the small percentage of playerbase that does play the hardest content in the game, but I don't expect the rest of the game to be on that level. But when I get to the final boss in the Wrothgar storyline and my friend and I kill each of its stages in like 2 flame lashes and 2 puncturing sweeps...I mean that's not really exciting. The fact of the matter is that once more and more players start hitting the higher CP numbers (and there is A LOT that are hitting closer to cap with all the xp events) more and more people will start seeing the same issues in the content. I don't think the difficulties need to be extraordinarily increased, I just think there should possibly be some difficulty tiers tied in to them.

Also, as a side note, most of the higher difficulty players don't "exclude" really on purpose, it's moreso that our raid groups require we have a tight team. But you'll see a lot of these players going out and doing casual content, particularly trials group with lower tier teams. It's just that...to do things like vMoL HM, for example, you have to have a pretty consistent and tight group. That's not really alienating, that's doing what the game requires you to in order to beat difficult content. I really enjoy going and pugging pledges through group finder or doing casual trials with players that aren't fully experienced. In fact, a lot of the members of my core team go and do things like that all the time.

We all share this game, and I don't think more options are really a bad thing. Just me though, I guess.

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

The problem with hard content is people do tend to start to exclude a lot of people, then wonder why they don't get catered to in any great or meaningful way. Because due to their ways, they become such a small and insignificant part of the game, it's obviously not financially viable to support such a small group of the playing population. They more or less bring it all on themselves, yet blame everyone other than themselves when they get left behind. I mean, include more people in your activities, don't alienate yourselves and you'd stand more of a chance getting the content you want.

Thinking logically, it makes more sense to create dlc/content that the majority will play and use than stuff like the hist dungeons we got. Would most complaining about easy content on here waste a few hours of their life allowing others to run with you or do you just boot those people before coming on here to complain about the amount of scrubs you encounter whilst waiting to create a group for dlc dungeon groups? Or is it just a case of someone else should put all the time and effort in to allowing others to learn the ropes whilst you just sit back and reap all the rewards?

People who love difficult content and think nothing of excluding others have no one other than themselves to blame for the amount of easy content in the game. Can't have it both ways.

Actually it is totally fine to not be hard. However, I find the definition of "hard" to be something that suggest the use of advanced tactics and group gameplay.

What I have encountered so far is not even medium in difficulty. The difficulty is non-existing (in the experience we had).

Never did we have to use an ability, and if we did, it was just for fun. 90% of the fights took less then 10 seconds. Often times we ran through empty dungeons with no game experience at all, while other players just killed everything in front of us within seconds.

Given what has been said here, it might get better in higher levels, as the mobs get tougher, but in the low level newbe area it seems like the whole character progression has no proper counterpart to progress against. I could run naked and auto attack, and still the mobs would drop without real danger to me. Now add friends to that, and it feels like the game is broken.

Most of the mobs have some special move, and I rarely see them. The bosses have some patterns designed to them, but we never saw them either. Everything was dead so fast.

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

The problem with hard content is people do tend to start to exclude a lot of people, then wonder why they don't get catered to in any great or meaningful way. Because due to their ways, they become such a small and insignificant part of the game, it's obviously not financially viable to support such a small group of the playing population. They more or less bring it all on themselves, yet blame everyone other than themselves when they get left behind. I mean, include more people in your activities, don't alienate yourselves and you'd stand more of a chance getting the content you want.

Thinking logically, it makes more sense to create dlc/content that the majority will play and use than stuff like the hist dungeons we got. Would most complaining about easy content on here waste a few hours of their life allowing others to run with you or do you just boot those people before coming on here to complain about the amount of scrubs you encounter whilst waiting to create a group for dlc dungeon groups?

People who love difficult content and think nothing of excluding others have no one other than themselves to blame for the amount of easy content in the game. Can't have it both ways.

I'm not sure OP is asking for crazy difficult content, he/she is simply pointing out that a lot of the fights/mobs in the game ARE incredibly easy. I mean, I'm personally in the small percentage of playerbase that does play the hardest content in the game, but I don't expect the rest of the game to be on that level. But when I get to the final boss in the Wrothgar storyline and my friend and I kill each of its stages in like 2 flame lashes and 2 puncturing sweeps...I mean that's not really exciting. The fact of the matter is that once more and more players start hitting the higher CP numbers (and there is A LOT that are hitting closer to cap with all the xp events) more and more people will start seeing the same issues in the content. I don't think the difficulties need to be extraordinarily increased, I just think there should possibly be some difficulty tiers tied in to them.

Also, as a side note, most of the higher difficulty players don't "exclude" really on purpose, it's moreso that our raid groups require we have a tight team. But you'll see a lot of these players going out and doing casual content, particularly trials group with lower tier teams. It's just that...to do things like vMoL HM, for example, you have to have a pretty consistent and tight group. That's not really alienating, that's doing what the game requires you to in order to beat difficult content. I really enjoy going and pugging pledges through group finder or doing casual trials with players that aren't fully experienced. In fact, a lot of the members of my core team go and do things like that all the time.

We all share this game, and I don't think more options are really a bad thing. Just me though, I guess.

More aimed at the comments throughout the thread than the OP. I get you like to run tight groups, but what happens when some of those people move on? Your group becomes smaller, less people do the content and then Craglorn happens. including more people from the start helps keeps the numbers up. Some will be awful, some people can't be helped, but there are many people being excluded that would learn and add to those "tight groups". Those people just move onto too because they soon realise life is too short to sit there begging in the hope of being included.

Well, actually, when we recruit, it's through the lower-tier trials teams that we look to. There are quite a few players on my guild, specifically, core that worked their way up in that sense. We're not going to bring a random from zone into vMoL HM, those people need to gain experience just like the rest of us did. But we have grabbed randoms in zone and gotten them vMoL skins and experience on casual, fun nights (:

Dreepa wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Dreepa wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Yes, you can light attack your way to victory.
I'd like to see hard mode zones, same content just much more challenging and in a different instance.

I wonder how hard it would be to have veteran level overworld option. So you can change the difficulty like you would a dungeon or msa/dsa.

Yeah, I wouldn't think it would be too difficult with all the work they have already put in to doing it with dungeons.

Its more difficult than you think. They would have to recode the game to make every map instanced to every player or group like Guild Wars 1 was.

ESO is huge compared to GW1 in terms if the data it needs to process to render maps.
Dungeons are much smaller and most are broken up into smaller rooms so the server only has to load the relevant room.

There isn't enough server capacity to do that and it will never happen in this game.

If servers are not coded in a way to handle instanced game-play and group difficulty, then that is a technical limitation the design should try to work around.

For example dynamic spawn times. Or dynamic population system. If mobs are weak in strenght, then compensate with amount of mobs and make it more a diablo feel on the overland world, where you are fighting a lot of enemies at the same time coming from everywhere.

Or have ambushes that pop up, when players are in a group. I mean, there probably are multiple ways to create some dynamic system that does not require instancing to make the experience more solid.

That might be great for a max level, CP 600+ character in purple set gear with runes, but a newly minted level 50 would get crushed.

Anyone that is complaining the game is too easy, try making a new character using dropped armor and no CPS allocated whatsoever. It will be a completely different experience.

Normal dungeons are pretty easy. Vet version of all dungeon 1 add a bit more difficulty but fully geared CP 600 characters don't flinch most of the time. Vet dungeons get a bit harder and vet dlc dungeons are the highest of difficulty for 4 man. After that, it's vet trials and VMA. The problem is once you learn the mechanics and timing it all becomes easier.

I don't think it's possible to code in random mobs all over the place, at least not easily. There are set spawn points for everything. Thats inherent in how games are made. Some things like chests and nodes have a certain set of spawn points that the game may chooze randomly which one to spawn at. Some muliple bosses in Cyrodiil delves have random spawn timers but they still spawn in the same place. You have to tell the program what to spawn, where to spawn, when to spawn.

Having a bazillion mobs popping up every second wouldn't be fun for many either. Imagine trying to harvest a node with 20 mobs on you constantly. It would just be rediculous. If you want that kind of random, frenzy of action, perhaps an FPS game would be more your taste.

Well, actually right now I am doing exactly what you describe, and my new character just auto attacks his way to victory. Rarely do I have to use an ability. So I don't know where your experience comes from, but mine is surely different. I have an altmer mage with cloth armor.

I find this hard to believe. Can you give some details about your level, the gear you are using, your skills etc?

I have done vMA, not saying i am one of the best or anything (i am not), but i have done the hardest content that many has failed to complete so it means i am not a bad player. When i lvl up an alt, sometimes i die in the open world (while wearing full blue training gear with purple training weapons) when i make a mistake. Granted it might be 6-8 levels outdated, but that cannot be worse that white dropped gear that new players use. I don't think it is possible to burn through open world content easily with just light and heavy attacks (it is possible, but no way a piece of cake). Unless you are below level 10 and still have the new player bonus.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Dreepa wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Total boredom.. what the?! Yes, it was getting a bit monotonous doing the same dailies and other repeatable contents leveling up to max CP and beyond for one toon, and it was seemingly getting a bit boring. However, after creating three other toons of each class, I am enjoying the skillsets of each toon class. Plus, it has been over a year since I've done any regular line quests, and it is actually interesting to redo the quests with a new toon. I had actually forget a lot of what the quests entail, and it is kind of like experiencing new again with the new toon. Also, new contents (festivals, dlc and such) are being added every so often. So, how the hell are you saying total boredom? Something's wrong with you, dude. Ha ha

The boredom was not about the world and the story/quests. They are done very well. The boredom part was about the lackluster of depth in game-play / combat duration / anti-climax feeling.

That's because you guys are doing solo content as a group.

I don't agree that open world questing is just meant for solo players. ZoS has, over the years, actually adjusted the way quests work so that they are more group friendly. This is an MMO, people play together, even questing. Questing with a friend is really fun and enjoyable.

golfer.dub17_ESO wrote: »

I remember going up from Stonefalls to the Rift and immediately getting wrecked by the level 40 skeleton soldiers around there, either trying to sneak around them or getting lucky and having a high level save me.
.

That's what I really miss. Hard zones.

I still get a little shiver sometimes when I go certain places in the Rift or Reaper's March, remembering when I used to sneak around there 20 levels below the mobs there.

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Dreepa wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Total boredom.. what the?! Yes, it was getting a bit monotonous doing the same dailies and other repeatable contents leveling up to max CP and beyond for one toon, and it was seemingly getting a bit boring. However, after creating three other toons of each class, I am enjoying the skillsets of each toon class. Plus, it has been over a year since I've done any regular line quests, and it is actually interesting to redo the quests with a new toon. I had actually forget a lot of what the quests entail, and it is kind of like experiencing new again with the new toon. Also, new contents (festivals, dlc and such) are being added every so often. So, how the hell are you saying total boredom? Something's wrong with you, dude. Ha ha

The boredom was not about the world and the story/quests. They are done very well. The boredom part was about the lackluster of depth in game-play / combat duration / anti-climax feeling.

That's because you guys are doing solo content as a group.

I don't agree that open world questing is just meant for solo players. ZoS has, over the years, actually adjusted the way quests work so that they are more group friendly. This is an MMO, people play together, even questing. Questing with a friend is really fun and enjoyable.

ZOS made an entire zone for group questing, it's called Craglorn.

There's just no way to balance the mobs out for both solo players and groups, it is impossible to do. The only thing they can do is to introduce new group questing zone.

One issue is the difficulty balancing the same content across the wide range of "solo player who doesn't study any meta, and is uniformed by the game about how stats/damage scaling/etc work, and therefore has a 'total crap' build, with no CP" to "group of trial vets with 600cp & perfect DPS builds".

(my "main"/first character, for instance. Stamina nightblade, 1:2 health/stamina points, bow + some magika support skills: Soul drain & that ranged healing/dot skill. Also spread my CP around because I saw they were diminishing returns and figured that putting a bit in lots of passives would be more efficient. No, I haven't bothered to respec, I'm trying to save my gold for a house.)


....re: playing with others. Honestly, I haven't played MP/online/RPG with friends since vanilla WoW. MMOs, Diablo 3/ARPGs, etc - all solo. Don't generally bother inflicting myself on PUGs, either, since I know I don't do the 'pro'/'study proper builds' thing, and don't want to be a drag on other players. Yeah, I was kind of disappointed when I started playing ESO pre-1T that group dungeons scaled, since that meant I would be able to outlevel them and at least explore the low level ones, like I've done in previous MMOs. Of course, now everything scales. Hrm.

Zyrudin wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Yes, you can light attack your way to victory.



I'd like to see hard mode zones, same content just much more challenging and in a different instance.

+1

+2

The biggest mistake the dev team made was making the delves open world. Each should be an instance. This was the primary reason i quit after i hit vet levels. entire delves would be cleaned out by a small group of people. Today it hasn't changed. Each alt i have requires a different strategy to defeat a boss. But i never get to implement them. The only strategy worth anything in open world content involves AOE ad making sure you at least get one hit in on the boss

.[/quote]

I don't agree that open world questing is just meant for solo players. ZoS has, over the years, actually adjusted the way quests work so that they are more group friendly. This is an MMO, people play together, even questing. Questing with a friend is really fun and enjoyable. [/quote]

this lie is repeated so often that people think its true. MMO does not mean group. It simply means lots of people on the same server at the same time. It makes the game world appear more "alive" then in a single player game. Thats what it means. Now what the Devs have you do in the MMO is up to the game play design.

I never group or almost never group. But i enjoy the MMO aspect by talking to guild mates selling stuff and watching the inane crap being spewed in general. I want my MMO to be solo friendly at all aspects dungeons delves trials overland.The reason being i dont like groups. i dont want to go where the group goes i want to go slow explore open every box and fight the boss on my terms with my skill and my strategy. I dont give a hoot about loot as long as its something. If the fight at the end is lacking then the game is lacking. try that in a group they dump you for being slow.

Thats why every dungeon should have the option for solo every trial should have the option for solo. And if that mean group content takes a back seat or is not developed i dont care. i leave it for the devs to decide how they want their game but if it doesnt cater to what i am paying for to some degree i go. Just like everyone else. The devs need to figure out who their audience is and then focus. If you try to be something for everyone you end up like EQ2 down to a server or two and no one playing.

Solo content doesnt mean easy but the effort to develope solo content that is a challenge takes the same effort as that for group content. Which means the devs have to decide how its going to be. Put money and time into making solo challenges or group challenges and then live with the choice, A solo challenge will never engage a group and a real group challenge can't be done solo they are different and opposite types of game play much like pvp and pve. What is funny is that most MMOs try their hand at all four and end up with something that might only be good at none or one or two of them.