Huge World - Total Boredom

Mush55

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Dreepa wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Dreepa wrote: »

It is very arrogant to say I am alone with this. Even this thread has some people going in the same direction. And I am also talking for the 2 players that I played with. One guy in the quotes even literally said, he didn't like the boring leveling, and stopped at 30. Another one said, he disliked the lack of challenge. That is pretty much exactly what I disliked and what this thread is about.
If you make such a bold statement you better have done some data gathering or focus group test on the player base to back it up.

Umm nope. Your concern is that solo questing is not balanced for groups. Those quotes you linked here are all different concerns. Boring leveling is a different concern (I also disagree with this opinion, as leveling through questing is the best experience I have in this game, more than PvP, more than vMA. Quests are just so well written and the combat is fun, figuring out combos is even more fun). The lack of challenge is a different thing, but it is indeed an issue, since I am CP500 and I burn through solo questing so easily. I would love if the solo content is balanced for high level solo players, but in no way I would expect solo content to be balanced for group play.

Maybe you should do your research first. Forum is always filled with negativity, but you see how many people disagree with your negativity here?

Nope that is not my concern. And I am not being negative. Please stop now with being so negative.

Do you even know what you want? Solo questing in the open world (except for crag) is designed for solo players.
You demand it to be challenging for your group. So, Your concern is that solo questing is not balanced for group play.

There in lies the problem always thought mmo = group play if I want solo I can play and Rpg so it appears this game is no longer an mmo but an online rpg, and should be relabelled as such.............

MasterSpatula

I just looked over pages of "people quit because it's too easy," but I routinely stop to help out people who are struggling all over base-game zones while I'm there doing surveys or whatever.

This game draws in people that traditional MMOs don't. Even some experienced MMO players who are used to having dozens of abilities at their disposal struggle at first. People are learning the game in the same zones where some of you guys want experienced and skilled players to find a challenge. Also, even more experienced players need access to easier mobs to try new rotations out. (And yes, I know we have target skeletons in the game now, but there's more to a test than just your own DPS output.)

All I'm seeing is the same old cheap-paint coating of rationalizations that chip right away when you examine them closely, revealing behind it the same old "how dare filthy casuals be allowed to enjoy themselves."

Dreepa

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Dreepa wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Dreepa wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Dreepa wrote: »

It is very arrogant to say I am alone with this. Even this thread has some people going in the same direction. And I am also talking for the 2 players that I played with. One guy in the quotes even literally said, he didn't like the boring leveling, and stopped at 30. Another one said, he disliked the lack of challenge. That is pretty much exactly what I disliked and what this thread is about.
If you make such a bold statement you better have done some data gathering or focus group test on the player base to back it up.

Umm nope. Your concern is that solo questing is not balanced for groups. Those quotes you linked here are all different concerns. Boring leveling is a different concern (I also disagree with this opinion, as leveling through questing is the best experience I have in this game, more than PvP, more than vMA. Quests are just so well written and the combat is fun, figuring out combos is even more fun). The lack of challenge is a different thing, but it is indeed an issue, since I am CP500 and I burn through solo questing so easily. I would love if the solo content is balanced for high level solo players, but in no way I would expect solo content to be balanced for group play.

Maybe you should do your research first. Forum is always filled with negativity, but you see how many people disagree with your negativity here?

Nope that is not my concern. And I am not being negative. Please stop now with being so negative.

Do you even know what you want? Solo questing in the open world (except for crag) is designed for solo players.

No, I criticized the design approach towards a dynamic player behavior which is tackled by a static world design.
I have said that I like both, solo play, and group play with friends, and I have also stated that BOTH experiences are not that good.

I also explained that solo play is actually not solo, but PUG-play, which translates to group play. So if the solo content is designed for solo, then how was the designer approaching the dynamic amount of players?
What you so harshly defend is entirely contradictory.

If solo content was ... well... solo content for real, there wouldn't be other players. It is MMO content and it follows the same formula that DAOC did. It is static MMO content. The only REAL solo content by design is the Prophet's main questline and those single player instances.

And to repeat myself:

Dreepa wrote: »

You must have read a different thread than I did. I even talked a lot about how I like to solo play, but the content is being pug stomped by random players, leaving me to go through empty caves without a single fight, and leading to a dungeon boss with nice game play patterns that I never get to see as 10 random player kill it before I even realized that this is the quest end-boss, where out of nowhere my quest tracker announcement pops up, telling me I just killed the boss mob.

Solo experience is not good? What are you talking about? It's not good just because sometimes you run into a player while questing? Come on! As I have said several times already (and you always ignore it): How is it even a problem? Maybe you don't like it, sure, I respect that, but I don't like pizza, so I don't judge. You are trying to take down this boss, and some other hero jumps in to help you. It makes the world more lively, there's another hero trying to do something good, well that's good news. It's the damn point of solo questing in an MMO. You are not the only hero in this world. You are out there by yourself, but sometimes there will be people who lend you a hand.
Solo experience is better than what you get from Skyrim. There, I said it.

So, since the solo experience is good (I am pretty sure you said it yourself somewhere as well), your concern is simply solo questing content is not designed for your group. Then again, 99.999999999999% of the player base do the open world quests solo. Should ZoS waste more resources on chasing a ghost that might or might not exist (a.k.a trying to develop a system that can balance out both solo and group play, which doesn't exist as of yet) to please a very very very small portion of the playerbase? Oh, and there's a chance they will screw the game up with all the bugs while the game is already buggy as it is. They already make craglorn for you guys. You refuse to do it. Oh well. This game is not for you then.

Also, tl,dr: Real new players will struggle to get through solo content even when 2-3 of them group up, you don't have to agree about them. Take care of yourself first, do yourself a favour and play through craglorn with your group. You know crag exists. People who don't know crag exists are struggling through solo content anyway even when 2-3 of them group up.

You don't seem to disagree with my tl, dr.

P/S: The chance of a quest boss getting killed by 10 random people is soooooo low. Don't lie to me, I have done all the quests myself, you mostly see 0-1 player in your quest area. Sometimes 2, but that's already rare. 3 is even rarer.

I try to enjoy it for what it is. But it still is bad design. Or rather "very oldschool" design.

But since you don't stop putting stuff into my mouth I have never said, and asking me things I have explained more than two times, I don't see the point in repeating it over and over. Scroll up. It is all there.

Dreepa

MasterSpatula wrote: »

I just looked over pages of "people quit because it's too easy," but I routinely stop to help out people who are struggling all over base-game zones while I'm there doing surveys or whatever.

This game draws in people that traditional MMOs don't. Even some experienced MMO players who are used to having dozens of abilities at their disposal struggle at first. People are learning the game in the same zones where some of you guys want experienced and skilled players to find a challenge. Also, even more experienced players need access to easier mobs to try new rotations out. (And yes, I know we have target skeletons in the game now, but there's more to a test than just your own DPS output.)

All I'm seeing is the same old cheap-paint coating of rationalizations that chip right away when you examine them closely, revealing behind it the same old "how dare filthy casuals be allowed to enjoy themselves."

No. That is a misunderstanding. It is about proper difficulty balancing.
If you have a static power level on the one side, and a variable power level on the other, you can't control the difficulty. If you can't control the difficulty, you can't control the game-play experience.

itehache

Pwnyridah wrote: »

Open world content isn't the same as endgame. If you want a challenge, do vet and hardmode content. Trials, VMA, PvP, all offer a good challenge until you learn to master them.

^ This

hmsdragonfly

Dreepa wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Dreepa wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Dreepa wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Dreepa wrote: »

It is very arrogant to say I am alone with this. Even this thread has some people going in the same direction. And I am also talking for the 2 players that I played with. One guy in the quotes even literally said, he didn't like the boring leveling, and stopped at 30. Another one said, he disliked the lack of challenge. That is pretty much exactly what I disliked and what this thread is about.
If you make such a bold statement you better have done some data gathering or focus group test on the player base to back it up.

Umm nope. Your concern is that solo questing is not balanced for groups. Those quotes you linked here are all different concerns. Boring leveling is a different concern (I also disagree with this opinion, as leveling through questing is the best experience I have in this game, more than PvP, more than vMA. Quests are just so well written and the combat is fun, figuring out combos is even more fun). The lack of challenge is a different thing, but it is indeed an issue, since I am CP500 and I burn through solo questing so easily. I would love if the solo content is balanced for high level solo players, but in no way I would expect solo content to be balanced for group play.

Maybe you should do your research first. Forum is always filled with negativity, but you see how many people disagree with your negativity here?

Nope that is not my concern. And I am not being negative. Please stop now with being so negative.

Do you even know what you want? Solo questing in the open world (except for crag) is designed for solo players.

No, I criticized the design approach towards a dynamic player behavior which is tackled by a static world design.
I have said that I like both, solo play, and group play with friends, and I have also stated that BOTH experiences are not that good.

I also explained that solo play is actually not solo, but PUG-play, which translates to group play. So if the solo content is designed for solo, then how was the designer approaching the dynamic amount of players?
What you so harshly defend is entirely contradictory.

If solo content was ... well... solo content for real, there wouldn't be other players. It is MMO content and it follows the same formula that DAOC did. It is static MMO content. The only REAL solo content by design is the Prophet's main questline and those single player instances.

And to repeat myself:

Dreepa wrote: »

You must have read a different thread than I did. I even talked a lot about how I like to solo play, but the content is being pug stomped by random players, leaving me to go through empty caves without a single fight, and leading to a dungeon boss with nice game play patterns that I never get to see as 10 random player kill it before I even realized that this is the quest end-boss, where out of nowhere my quest tracker announcement pops up, telling me I just killed the boss mob.

Solo experience is not good? What are you talking about? It's not good just because sometimes you run into a player while questing? Come on! As I have said several times already (and you always ignore it): How is it even a problem? Maybe you don't like it, sure, I respect that, but I don't like pizza, so I don't judge. You are trying to take down this boss, and some other hero jumps in to help you. It makes the world more lively, there's another hero trying to do something good, well that's good news. It's the damn point of solo questing in an MMO. You are not the only hero in this world. You are out there by yourself, but sometimes there will be people who lend you a hand.
Solo experience is better than what you get from Skyrim. There, I said it.

So, since the solo experience is good (I am pretty sure you said it yourself somewhere as well), your concern is simply solo questing content is not designed for your group. Then again, 99.999999999999% of the player base do the open world quests solo. Should ZoS waste more resources on chasing a ghost that might or might not exist (a.k.a trying to develop a system that can balance out both solo and group play, which doesn't exist as of yet) to please a very very very small portion of the playerbase? Oh, and there's a chance they will screw the game up with all the bugs while the game is already buggy as it is. They already make craglorn for you guys. You refuse to do it. Oh well. This game is not for you then.

Also, tl,dr: Real new players will struggle to get through solo content even when 2-3 of them group up, you don't have to agree about them. Take care of yourself first, do yourself a favour and play through craglorn with your group. You know crag exists. People who don't know crag exists are struggling through solo content anyway even when 2-3 of them group up.

You don't seem to disagree with my tl, dr.

P/S: The chance of a quest boss getting killed by 10 random people is soooooo low. Don't lie to me, I have done all the quests myself, you mostly see 0-1 player in your quest area. Sometimes 2, but that's already rare. 3 is even rarer.

I try to enjoy it for what it is. But it still is bad design. Or rather "very oldschool" design.

But since you don't stop putting stuff into my mouth I have never said, and asking me things I have explained more than two times, I don't see the point in repeating it over and over. Scroll up. It is all there.

It's pointless now, let's just say we disagree.

WIth that said, I totally respect your opinion. I just don't share yours.

BenLocoDete

Milvan wrote: »

Zone content is ridicously easy. I don't know what kind of players they intend to cater with that approach.

This is true, most of the time I prefer running solo because the game has far more blades than flesh.

The majority of enemies take less than 2 seconds to die what is cool if you have hordes of them as OP stated, something not impossible in ESO but rare.

And those recurring extremely awkward moments when you just finished off a boss and is underway the final quest stages(loot/dialogue/exit cell) until a couple players get into the instance making that boss pop back.

Very immersion-breaking and a total waste of all RPG elements for that experience. It may add to the "social" aspect but it totally ruins the story of many quests.

Just think about a farmer trying to rescue his wife from nearby bandits holding her captive. He then asks you to discretely deal with the issue so the safety of his lover isn't threatened. Off you go, the disguised hero, just to meet players by the piles wreaking havoc throughout the bandits camp without offering any risk to your task and also totally avoiding you in their carnage.

The other players in such case let loose the whole "exclusive" mission you were asked to accomplish, and there goes a good bit of the experience.

Don't know what are the problems with having instanced scenarios in such cases. At least for different quest stages or final fights, the presence of other player in so many cases is left totally unexplained and the player is set alone to justify them and more than often it is done by making up there weren't any other people there, kind of removing the mystic veil that questing just tried to build up.

It thus reminds me all the time that I'm playing a virtually composed environment where several people are thrown to run the same quests I am regardless if I've dealt with said issue before or not.

Maybe a good thread can provide valuable information on how to deal with these cases in a solid way, preserving the story, the social relevancy and the RPG aspects of said encounters but haven't really heard if [Z] is working to change their approach regarding this.

BenLocoDete

Milvan wrote: »

Zone content is ridicously easy. I don't know what kind of players they intend to cater with that approach.

This is true, most of the time I prefer running solo because the game has far more blades than flesh.

The majority of enemies take less than 2 seconds to die what is cool if you have hordes of them as OP stated, something not impossible in ESO but rare.

And those recurring extremely awkward moments when you just finished off a boss and is underway the final quest stages(loot/dialogue/exit cell) until a couple players get into the instance making that boss pop back.

Very immersion-breaking and a total waste of all RPG elements for that experience. It may add to the "social" aspect but it totally ruins the story of many quests.

Just think about a farmer trying to rescue his wife from nearby bandits holding her captive. He then asks you to discretely deal with the issue so the safety of his lover isn't threatened. Off you go, the disguised hero, just to meet players by the piles wreaking havoc throughout the bandits camp without offering any risk to your task and also totally avoiding you in their carnage.

The other players in such case let loose the whole "exclusive" mission you were asked to accomplish, and there goes a good bit of the experience.

Don't know what are the problems with having instanced scenarios in such cases. At least for different quest stages or final fights, the presence of other player in so many cases is left totally unexplained and the player is set alone to justify them and more than often it is done by making up there weren't any other people there, kind of removing the mystic veil that questing just tried to build up.

It thus reminds me all the time that I'm playing a virtually composed environment where several people are thrown to run the same quests I am regardless if I've dealt with said issue before or not.

Maybe a good thread can provide valuable information on how to deal with these cases in a solid way, preserving the story, the social relevancy and the RPG aspects of said encounters but haven't really heard if [Z] is working to change their approach regarding this.

Dreepa

BenLocoDete wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

Zone content is ridicously easy. I don't know what kind of players they intend to cater with that approach.

This is true, most of the time I prefer running solo because the game has far more blades than flesh.

The majority of enemies take less than 2 seconds to die what is cool if you have hordes of them as OP stated, something not impossible in ESO but rare.

And those recurring extremely awkward moments when you just finished off a boss and is underway the final quest stages(loot/dialogue/exit cell) until a couple players get into the instance making that boss pop back.

Very immersion-breaking and a total waste of all RPG elements for that experience. It may add to the "social" aspect but it totally ruins the story of many quests.

Just think about a farmer trying to rescue his wife from nearby bandits holding her captive. He then asks you to discretely deal with the issue so the safety of his lover isn't threatened. Off you go, the disguised hero, just to meet players by the piles wreaking havoc throughout the bandits camp without offering any risk to your task and also totally avoiding you in their carnage.

The other players in such case let loose the whole "exclusive" mission you were asked to accomplish, and there goes a good bit of the experience.

Don't know what are the problems with having instanced scenarios in such cases. At least for different quest stages or final fights, the presence of other player in so many cases is left totally unexplained and the player is set alone to justify them and more than often it is done by making up there weren't any other people there, kind of removing the mystic veil that questing just tried to build up.

It thus reminds me all the time that I'm playing a virtually composed environment where several people are thrown to run the same quests I am regardless if I've dealt with said issue before or not.

Maybe a good thread can provide valuable information on how to deal with these cases in a solid way, preserving the story, the social relevancy and the RPG aspects of said encounters but haven't really heard if [Z] is working to change their approach regarding this.

Well said. That is my experience as well.

@hmsdragonfly
Read that post. He describes exactly what I am trying to explain to you.

Malakor

I wonder if ZOS could program 'bosses' (world, delve, dungeon and so forth) to scale in difficulty based upon the number of attackers that are opposing them? That might help to overcome bosses getting curb-stomped as soon as they appear. The only other solution I see would be to make all delves and non-public dungeons to be instanced.

hmsdragonfly

Dreepa wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

Zone content is ridicously easy. I don't know what kind of players they intend to cater with that approach.

This is true, most of the time I prefer running solo because the game has far more blades than flesh.

The majority of enemies take less than 2 seconds to die what is cool if you have hordes of them as OP stated, something not impossible in ESO but rare.

And those recurring extremely awkward moments when you just finished off a boss and is underway the final quest stages(loot/dialogue/exit cell) until a couple players get into the instance making that boss pop back.

Very immersion-breaking and a total waste of all RPG elements for that experience. It may add to the "social" aspect but it totally ruins the story of many quests.

Just think about a farmer trying to rescue his wife from nearby bandits holding her captive. He then asks you to discretely deal with the issue so the safety of his lover isn't threatened. Off you go, the disguised hero, just to meet players by the piles wreaking havoc throughout the bandits camp without offering any risk to your task and also totally avoiding you in their carnage.

The other players in such case let loose the whole "exclusive" mission you were asked to accomplish, and there goes a good bit of the experience.

Don't know what are the problems with having instanced scenarios in such cases. At least for different quest stages or final fights, the presence of other player in so many cases is left totally unexplained and the player is set alone to justify them and more than often it is done by making up there weren't any other people there, kind of removing the mystic veil that questing just tried to build up.

It thus reminds me all the time that I'm playing a virtually composed environment where several people are thrown to run the same quests I am regardless if I've dealt with said issue before or not.

Maybe a good thread can provide valuable information on how to deal with these cases in a solid way, preserving the story, the social relevancy and the RPG aspects of said encounters but haven't really heard if [Z] is working to change their approach regarding this.

Well said. That is my experience as well.

@hmsdragonfly
Read that post. He describes exactly what I am trying to explain to you.

Haha, as I have explained to you like 99+ times already (and you always avoid my points), I fail to see how someone helping you finish off a boss is immersion breaking.

How is it even a problem? Maybe you don't like it, sure, I respect that, but I don't like pizza, so I don't judge. You are trying to take down this boss, and some other hero jumps in to help you. It makes the world more lively, there's another hero trying to do something good, well that's good news. It's the damn point of solo questing in this MMO. You are not the only hero in this world. You are out there by yourself, but sometimes there will be people who lend you a hand.

hmsdragonfly

BenLocoDete wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

Zone content is ridicously easy. I don't know what kind of players they intend to cater with that approach.

This is true, most of the time I prefer running solo because the game has far more blades than flesh.

The majority of enemies take less than 2 seconds to die what is cool if you have hordes of them as OP stated, something not impossible in ESO but rare.

And those recurring extremely awkward moments when you just finished off a boss and is underway the final quest stages(loot/dialogue/exit cell) until a couple players get into the instance making that boss pop back.

Very immersion-breaking and a total waste of all RPG elements for that experience. It may add to the "social" aspect but it totally ruins the story of many quests.

Just think about a farmer trying to rescue his wife from nearby bandits holding her captive. He then asks you to discretely deal with the issue so the safety of his lover isn't threatened. Off you go, the disguised hero, just to meet players by the piles wreaking havoc throughout the bandits camp without offering any risk to your task and also totally avoiding you in their carnage.

The other players in such case let loose the whole "exclusive" mission you were asked to accomplish, and there goes a good bit of the experience.

Don't know what are the problems with having instanced scenarios in such cases. At least for different quest stages or final fights, the presence of other player in so many cases is left totally unexplained and the player is set alone to justify them and more than often it is done by making up there weren't any other people there, kind of removing the mystic veil that questing just tried to build up.

It thus reminds me all the time that I'm playing a virtually composed environment where several people are thrown to run the same quests I am regardless if I've dealt with said issue before or not.

Maybe a good thread can provide valuable information on how to deal with these cases in a solid way, preserving the story, the social relevancy and the RPG aspects of said encounters but haven't really heard if [Z] is working to change their approach regarding this.

Well I respect your opinion, but I don't see how someone helping you finish off the boss is immersion breaking. It makes the world more lively, you are not the only one who stands against evil, some brave adventurers might lend you a hand. There are many heroes in Tamriel, not just you. I think it's the point of this game

When I am trying to finish a quest boss, and another player jumps in to help me. After the fight, I always /salute that guy. The world always needs another hero

Dreepa

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

Zone content is ridicously easy. I don't know what kind of players they intend to cater with that approach.

This is true, most of the time I prefer running solo because the game has far more blades than flesh.

The majority of enemies take less than 2 seconds to die what is cool if you have hordes of them as OP stated, something not impossible in ESO but rare.

And those recurring extremely awkward moments when you just finished off a boss and is underway the final quest stages(loot/dialogue/exit cell) until a couple players get into the instance making that boss pop back.

Very immersion-breaking and a total waste of all RPG elements for that experience. It may add to the "social" aspect but it totally ruins the story of many quests.

Just think about a farmer trying to rescue his wife from nearby bandits holding her captive. He then asks you to discretely deal with the issue so the safety of his lover isn't threatened. Off you go, the disguised hero, just to meet players by the piles wreaking havoc throughout the bandits camp without offering any risk to your task and also totally avoiding you in their carnage.

The other players in such case let loose the whole "exclusive" mission you were asked to accomplish, and there goes a good bit of the experience.

Don't know what are the problems with having instanced scenarios in such cases. At least for different quest stages or final fights, the presence of other player in so many cases is left totally unexplained and the player is set alone to justify them and more than often it is done by making up there weren't any other people there, kind of removing the mystic veil that questing just tried to build up.

It thus reminds me all the time that I'm playing a virtually composed environment where several people are thrown to run the same quests I am regardless if I've dealt with said issue before or not.

Maybe a good thread can provide valuable information on how to deal with these cases in a solid way, preserving the story, the social relevancy and the RPG aspects of said encounters but haven't really heard if [Z] is working to change their approach regarding this.

Well I respect your opinion, but I don't see how someone helping you finish off the boss is immersion breaking. It makes the world more lively, you are not the only one who stands against evil, some brave adventurers might lend you a hand. There are many heroes in Tamriel, not just you. I think it's the point of this game

When I am trying to finish a quest boss, and another player jumps in to help me. After the fight, I always /salute that guy. The world always needs another hero

Yes. Why is it so hard to understand, that these are two separate findings?

The one finding we talk about is about being able to play with others. Having people help you. That is ABSOLUTELY FINE.
(as long as it is in a controlled environment, where it fits the quest. being on a secret sneak mission with 10 people jumping around would not be fitting).

The second finding, however, is about a game design that does not take into account growing player strength. Which leads to insta kill. And THAT is not absolutely fine.

Just yesterday I made a new character with the 2 guys, we started in ebonheart. At level 11 we are going for Balreth. Super cool questline, nice graphics, big volcano, lava... all that juicy stuff that makes you go: Cool game!

So the quest guy sends us time-traveling to the past, find out how the ritual was made to bind Balreth, then we go back to the present, meet that arch mage again, we conjure the guardians, then go through the portal. Cool stuff, nice content design. The arch mage gives us advice: "Balreth profits from lava and fire. And dont let yourself get burned." Meaning the game even explains that there is a mechanic we need to watch out for. So we go through the portal, and Balrteth walks around, even has a nice cool "lava bathing effect" when he goes into the lava, showing that he is healing.
I still remember that fight when I played ESO 3 years ago in beta. A bit blurry, but I still remember it. Was really cool back then.
Well, so we are at the pinnacle of the quest, and Balreth dies in 10seconds. He didn't even get to heal himself once.
What a great moment...NOT.

So, while playing together with others is, of course, totally fine, especially in an MMO which is about playing together, the design needs to adapt the experience. A solo experience is different from a pug or group experience.

No one in voice chat was anywhere near excited. This is not how you keep new players interested in the game. This is how you make them say: "Meh.... nice game and all, but lets play something else."

Anlaemar

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

Vet zones were way tougher at PC launch, i have a guildmate who quit due to dying too much and not being able to even complete quests in the vet zones back then. I remember when Doshia wasnt basically a normal mob but too many people couldnt beat Doshia so they nerfed Doshia into the ground like its just a normal Wolf in a zone lol.

This.

People were complaining about the zone difficulty level back in the early days. Killing a single mudcrab or skeever was a challenge. A mub pull consisting of more than 3 was next to impossible for some players.

Overland isn't suppose to be a challenge. If you're looking for a challenge, do vet dungeons, trials, DSA, or solo/duo some of the Craglorn dailies. I didn't find the last too challenging, but one or two of the bosses took me a couple tries solo. Normal dungeons, trials, DSA is on a level so casuals can do them.

Dreepa

Anlaemar wrote: »

Overland isn't suppose to be a challenge. If you're looking for a challenge, do vet dungeons, trials, DSA, or solo/duo some of the Craglorn dailies. I didn't find the last too challenging, but one or two of the bosses took me a couple tries solo. Normal dungeons, trials, DSA is on a level so casuals can do them.

We don't really want a challenge. We are casual player that just have fun. It was more about having to actually fight.

Surely there must be a middle ground between "vet dungeon challenge" and "enemies die because you looked at him wrong".

hmsdragonfly

Dreepa wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

Zone content is ridicously easy. I don't know what kind of players they intend to cater with that approach.

This is true, most of the time I prefer running solo because the game has far more blades than flesh.

The majority of enemies take less than 2 seconds to die what is cool if you have hordes of them as OP stated, something not impossible in ESO but rare.

And those recurring extremely awkward moments when you just finished off a boss and is underway the final quest stages(loot/dialogue/exit cell) until a couple players get into the instance making that boss pop back.

Very immersion-breaking and a total waste of all RPG elements for that experience. It may add to the "social" aspect but it totally ruins the story of many quests.

Just think about a farmer trying to rescue his wife from nearby bandits holding her captive. He then asks you to discretely deal with the issue so the safety of his lover isn't threatened. Off you go, the disguised hero, just to meet players by the piles wreaking havoc throughout the bandits camp without offering any risk to your task and also totally avoiding you in their carnage.

The other players in such case let loose the whole "exclusive" mission you were asked to accomplish, and there goes a good bit of the experience.

Don't know what are the problems with having instanced scenarios in such cases. At least for different quest stages or final fights, the presence of other player in so many cases is left totally unexplained and the player is set alone to justify them and more than often it is done by making up there weren't any other people there, kind of removing the mystic veil that questing just tried to build up.

It thus reminds me all the time that I'm playing a virtually composed environment where several people are thrown to run the same quests I am regardless if I've dealt with said issue before or not.

Maybe a good thread can provide valuable information on how to deal with these cases in a solid way, preserving the story, the social relevancy and the RPG aspects of said encounters but haven't really heard if [Z] is working to change their approach regarding this.

Well I respect your opinion, but I don't see how someone helping you finish off the boss is immersion breaking. It makes the world more lively, you are not the only one who stands against evil, some brave adventurers might lend you a hand. There are many heroes in Tamriel, not just you. I think it's the point of this game

When I am trying to finish a quest boss, and another player jumps in to help me. After the fight, I always /salute that guy. The world always needs another hero

Yes. Why is it so hard to understand, that these are two separate findings?

The one finding we talk about is about being able to play with others. Having people help you. That is ABSOLUTELY FINE.
(as long as it is in a controlled environment, where it fits the quest. being on a secret sneak mission with 10 people jumping around would not be fitting).

The second finding, however, is about a game design that does not take into account growing player strength. Which leads to insta kill. And THAT is not absolutely fine.

Just yesterday I made a new character with the 2 guys, we started in ebonheart. At level 11 we are going for Balreth. Super cool questline, nice graphics, big volcano, lava... all that juicy stuff that makes you go: Cool game!

So the quest guy sends us time-traveling to the past, find out how the ritual was made to bind Balreth, then we go back to the present, meet that arch mage again, we conjure the guardians, then go through the portal. Cool stuff, nice content design. The arch mage gives us advice: "Balreth profits from lava and fire. And dont let yourself get burned." Meaning the game even explains that there is a mechanic we need to watch out for. So we go through the portal, and Balrteth walks around, even has a nice cool "lava bathing effect" when he goes into the lava, showing that he is healing.
I still remember that fight when I played ESO 3 years ago in beta. A bit blurry, but I still remember it. Was really cool back then.
Well, so we are at the pinnacle of the quest, and Balreth dies in 10seconds. He didn't even get to heal himself once.
What a great moment...NOT.

So, while playing together with others is, of course, totally fine, especially in an MMO which is about playing together, the design needs to adapt the experience. A solo experience is different from a pug or group experience.

No one in voice chat was anywhere near excited. This is not how you keep new players interested in the game. This is how you make them say: "Meh.... nice game and all, but lets play something else."

Why is it so hard to understand? I think you are avoiding my point here. I don't talk about grouping with friends. I am talking about a random player jumping in to help you finish off a quest boss. You have a problem with that, and I fail to see how it is immersion breaking when a random adventurer helps you finishing off someone evil. It makes the world more lively, you are not the only one who stands against evil, some brave adventurers might lend you a hand. There are many heroes in Tamriel, not just you. I think it's the point of this game then I am trying to finish a quest boss, and another player jumps in to help me. After the fight, I always /salute that guy. The world always needs more heroes.

Again, the chance of running into 10 random people while you are fighting a quest boss is soooooo low, it's non-existent. Don't lie to me, I have done all the quests myself, you mostly see 0-1 player in your quest area. Sometimes 2, but that's already rare. 3 is even rarer.

You should see the game from the eyes of real new players.

This is a typical new player fighting a quest boss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6aYFFnJpac

Dreepa

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Dreepa wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

Zone content is ridicously easy. I don't know what kind of players they intend to cater with that approach.

This is true, most of the time I prefer running solo because the game has far more blades than flesh.

The majority of enemies take less than 2 seconds to die what is cool if you have hordes of them as OP stated, something not impossible in ESO but rare.

And those recurring extremely awkward moments when you just finished off a boss and is underway the final quest stages(loot/dialogue/exit cell) until a couple players get into the instance making that boss pop back.

Very immersion-breaking and a total waste of all RPG elements for that experience. It may add to the "social" aspect but it totally ruins the story of many quests.

Just think about a farmer trying to rescue his wife from nearby bandits holding her captive. He then asks you to discretely deal with the issue so the safety of his lover isn't threatened. Off you go, the disguised hero, just to meet players by the piles wreaking havoc throughout the bandits camp without offering any risk to your task and also totally avoiding you in their carnage.

The other players in such case let loose the whole "exclusive" mission you were asked to accomplish, and there goes a good bit of the experience.

Don't know what are the problems with having instanced scenarios in such cases. At least for different quest stages or final fights, the presence of other player in so many cases is left totally unexplained and the player is set alone to justify them and more than often it is done by making up there weren't any other people there, kind of removing the mystic veil that questing just tried to build up.

It thus reminds me all the time that I'm playing a virtually composed environment where several people are thrown to run the same quests I am regardless if I've dealt with said issue before or not.

Maybe a good thread can provide valuable information on how to deal with these cases in a solid way, preserving the story, the social relevancy and the RPG aspects of said encounters but haven't really heard if [Z] is working to change their approach regarding this.

Well I respect your opinion, but I don't see how someone helping you finish off the boss is immersion breaking. It makes the world more lively, you are not the only one who stands against evil, some brave adventurers might lend you a hand. There are many heroes in Tamriel, not just you. I think it's the point of this game

When I am trying to finish a quest boss, and another player jumps in to help me. After the fight, I always /salute that guy. The world always needs another hero

Yes. Why is it so hard to understand, that these are two separate findings?

The one finding we talk about is about being able to play with others. Having people help you. That is ABSOLUTELY FINE.
(as long as it is in a controlled environment, where it fits the quest. being on a secret sneak mission with 10 people jumping around would not be fitting).

The second finding, however, is about a game design that does not take into account growing player strength. Which leads to insta kill. And THAT is not absolutely fine.

Just yesterday I made a new character with the 2 guys, we started in ebonheart. At level 11 we are going for Balreth. Super cool questline, nice graphics, big volcano, lava... all that juicy stuff that makes you go: Cool game!

So the quest guy sends us time-traveling to the past, find out how the ritual was made to bind Balreth, then we go back to the present, meet that arch mage again, we conjure the guardians, then go through the portal. Cool stuff, nice content design. The arch mage gives us advice: "Balreth profits from lava and fire. And dont let yourself get burned." Meaning the game even explains that there is a mechanic we need to watch out for. So we go through the portal, and Balrteth walks around, even has a nice cool "lava bathing effect" when he goes into the lava, showing that he is healing.
I still remember that fight when I played ESO 3 years ago in beta. A bit blurry, but I still remember it. Was really cool back then.
Well, so we are at the pinnacle of the quest, and Balreth dies in 10seconds. He didn't even get to heal himself once.
What a great moment...NOT.

So, while playing together with others is, of course, totally fine, especially in an MMO which is about playing together, the design needs to adapt the experience. A solo experience is different from a pug or group experience.

No one in voice chat was anywhere near excited. This is not how you keep new players interested in the game. This is how you make them say: "Meh.... nice game and all, but lets play something else."

Why is it so hard to understand? I think you are avoiding my point here. I don't talk about grouping with friends. I am talking about a random player jumping in to help you finish off a quest boss. You have a problem with that, and I fail to see how it is immersion breaking when a random adventurer helps you finishing off someone evil. It makes the world more lively, you are not the only one who stands against evil, some brave adventurers might lend you a hand. There are many heroes in Tamriel, not just you. I think it's the point of this game then I am trying to finish a quest boss, and another player jumps in to help me. After the fight, I always /salute that guy. The world always needs more heroes.

Again, the chance of running into 10 random people while you are fighting a quest boss is soooooo low, it's non-existent. Don't lie to me, I have done all the quests myself, you mostly see 0-1 player in your quest area. Sometimes 2, but that's already rare. 3 is even rarer.

You should see the game from the eyes of real new players.

This is a typical new player fighting a quest boss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6aYFFnJpac

What point am I evading? I am stating my experience. What frigging point should I be even considering when I state MY experience. And that is: Cool quest drops dead when the climax doesn't deliver.

What you post is totally irrelevant to the case I am discussing.

I am talking about bosses dropping dead in seconds and quests not having any proper climax to their narrative arc. BASICS IN GAME DESIGN.

Nowhere did I ever imply you shouldn't be able to play with others helping you. The contrary: I say you SHOULD be able to play it with others.

Man, what you say is so contradicting. Having others help you: Good. Having a group with 2 friends: Bad, its solo content. But then again it is an MMO and you want PUGs to form. Like, do you even listen to yourself? EITHER the game is PUG friendly, and that also means it is group friendly, OR the content is designed for solo play. You can't have both, UNLESS you have dynamic difficulty scaling, which you say is impossible (because you probably are master programmer having coded several MMOs already).

And I honestly don't care what you think I should be doing or not be doing, because it is MY experience, not yours. And if there is a problem with a game, I name it, and discuss instead of going on about how that guy is playing the game wrong.

Also, your over-generalization of what you have experienced and what it means for others is so annoying. What makes you think that you know how others will have fun with the game? What gives you the right to tell me what part of the game I am "doing right" and what part "I am doing wrong"? I have had a dozen boss fights with so many random people that my bosses just died in seconds. Do you need me to RECORD IT just to prove a point? How about you just accept what I experienced?
Just yesterday I was doing some questing and it was utter boredom, as nothing I attacked lived more than like 5 seconds.
Most notable moment: Heymlin Keep in stonefalls. The climax of the quest: Go into that cave and watch the boss drop in seconds.
Here is ZOS, spending I dont know how many thousand of dollars on a quest, designing the cave, the endboss room, the boos and his patterns, the voice overs etc. And then they are not able to set up the numbers in a way that it gives me the feeling of having a proper climax to the end of my quest. Instead I didnt notice much of a difference between the trash mobs or this "quest boss".

CaiWenji

Domander wrote: »

Yes, you can light attack your way to victory.



I'd like to see hard mode zones, same content just much more challenging and in a different instance.

If you have the gladiator set or morkuldin, light and heavy attacks become even more fun.


But about the rest of this discussion, base mobs are of course easy like in any mmo. Try solo a world boss now after they buffed am all up. You used to be able to solo all of them easy. Now only one if my characters can solo them and its not easy. Like the one in the zone Eastmarch. Top left corner. A werewolf that summons 3 phantom wolves with him and he already hits hard. I solo'd him at lv 40 something but I had CP and good gear and had to give it my all. Dodge roll and green dragon blood and potions were all helpful.

I love the upgraded bosses though it forces you to group up and be social. Even if you don't need the help it speeds things up and makes it so you can relax a little.

tinythinker

Domander wrote: »

Yes, you can light attack your way to victory.



I'd like to see hard mode zones, same content just much more challenging and in a different instance.

We had one. It was called Craglorn, and it and other planned "adventure zones" were meant to be soloed by the top 10% of players and group content for the rest. It ended up being empty except for some gatherers. The choice was then to up the rewards to make it worthwhile or make it easy-mode. The devs made their choice. That's how all new zones will be now.

Dreepa

5 and half years have passed.

Yesterday I got 3 friends to try ESO with me again.

After playing for 5h, same thing happened as 5 years ago:

"When does this game start to get interesting"?
"This feels like a walking simulator"
"Come quick, we are fighting the boss..." 3! seconds later "Dude, hurry, the boss is almost dead!" Player arrives after like 10 seconds, battle over.
"That's it?! That was the BOSSFIGHT!?"

"I don't feel rewarded in this game. Everything just dies"
"Looks like this is not made for group play, maybe we should try the communicty remake of Warhammer Online?"
Reply: "Yeah, it's weird, why would you make an MMO and not design it for playing it with a group of friends"

*sigh*

What a pitty. I had hoped something would have changed 5 years later.

I guess the schizophrenic design approach is there to stay. Though why not just remove other players entirely from the scene then? There is no interaction or cool "we vs them" combat happening.

If anything, the other players are a hassle, killing that bit of combat content that is left in the overland questing.

ZOS_Exile

Greetings,

As this thread was originally created in April 2017, we decided to close it down. Please feel free to start a new topic on this subject if you wish to discuss it further.