Does Dark Lash deal instant damage? If so, it is basically Strife but better, and Reaver Strike would be op. If not, it's Siphon Spirit's other morph from the resto skill line. Why not just enhance Agony?

The Grim Focus changes would make it function identically to frags normalized for rng and would dilute one of the most unique and class defining mechanics of magicka nightblade. I become sad whenever I see someone make this suggestion...but I'm addicted to that ability.

Your suggestion for Shade is really, really interesting, although the only magicka set that comes to mind that would synergize with light attacks is Galerion's Revenge. Stam builds with Shock Master could be really interesting with that change. I'll look into more!

I've pulled some mean heals on mageblade too. You have access to a TON of heal over time utility, including minor lifesteal and magickasteal from resto. Look into those.

What I want to see for mageblade is damage buffs to path and shade for pve dps, minor staminasteal someplace to compete with Templar Shards, and buffs to Soul Siphon (other morph of Soul Tether).

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Does Dark Lash deal instant damage? If so, it is basically Strife but better, and Reaver Strike would be op. If not, it's Siphon Spirit's other morph from the resto skill line. Why not just enhance Agony?

The Grim Focus changes would make it function identically to frags normalized for rng and would dilute one of the most unique and class defining mechanics of magicka nightblade. I become sad whenever I see someone make this suggestion...but I'm addicted to that ability.

Your suggestion for Shade is really, really interesting, although the only magicka set that comes to mind that would synergize with light attacks is Galerion's Revenge. Stam builds with Shock Master could be really interesting with that change. I'll look into more!

Dark Lash isn't just "another Strife". It provides another stacking instance of heals on top of Strife and synergizes with any DoTs you have on the target. Agony really is trash - it breaks and does pitiful damage or it breaks and does pitiful damage over time. Either way, it just feels counter-productive to the subterfuge gameplay the NB tries to emulate.

Grim Focus wouldn't be necessarily "diluted" into being another Frags. Focus has the advantage of being a "controlled proc" as in you can predict and work in the proc to your roatation - Frag is literally RNG. Also, refreshing the duration is flavorful as the text of Grim Focus is to "build momentum and firing the proc allows the player to "keep their momentum going". Perhaps give a "refreshed" proc some additional damage to incentivize chaining procs?

My Shade suggestion would work well with the Elegant set since they are treated as light attacks. It also works well with Scathing Mage by providing a non-DoT source of passive crit damage. It also makes keeping the shades up for Necropotence a possibility since their damage and synergies make it more profitable to refresh their duration!

Thanks for the input!

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Can we call it "Poisoned Path" instead . I laughed way more then I should have at infectious path because of a story involving .. Ya know nevermind . But poison path what you think ?

Stamina Nightblade damage is exclusively disease damage based. Stamina Dragonknights have the poison damage. For the purposes of keeping to the established identity of these classes, I think it should remain as disease damage. Also, your mind really shouldn't be the gutter so much, lol.

Chair wrote: »

Actual good improvements gj!

Only gripe is that the shadow image light attacks would porc shield breaker if it doesn't proc shield breaker then these would be all around good improvements.

TBH, some interactions with certain sets would have to be looked at individually. Of course, Shield Breaker proc'ing from shades beating the crap out of you, after having run halfway across the battlefield, is not as likely or as practical as you may think. The shades tend to home in something closer and as a shield-stacking sorc, your fights should last long enough to be killed by shades....

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Does Dark Lash deal instant damage?

No it deals imaginary damage because it does not exist.

Vercingetorix wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Does Dark Lash deal instant damage? If so, it is basically Strife but better, and Reaver Strike would be op. If not, it's Siphon Spirit's other morph from the resto skill line. Why not just enhance Agony?

The Grim Focus changes would make it function identically to frags normalized for rng and would dilute one of the most unique and class defining mechanics of magicka nightblade. I become sad whenever I see someone make this suggestion...but I'm addicted to that ability.

Your suggestion for Shade is really, really interesting, although the only magicka set that comes to mind that would synergize with light attacks is Galerion's Revenge. Stam builds with Shock Master could be really interesting with that change. I'll look into more!

Dark Lash isn't just "another Strife". It provides another stacking instance of heals on top of Strife and synergizes with any DoTs you have on the target. Agony really is trash - it breaks and does pitiful damage or it breaks and does pitiful damage over time. Either way, it just feels counter-productive to the subterfuge gameplay the NB tries to emulate.

Grim Focus wouldn't be necessarily "diluted" into being another Frags. Focus has the advantage of being a "controlled proc" as in you can predict and work in the proc to your roatation - Frag is literally RNG. Also, refreshing the duration is flavorful as the text of Grim Focus is to "build momentum and firing the proc allows the player to "keep their momentum going". Perhaps give a "refreshed" proc some additional damage to incentivize chaining procs?

My Shade suggestion would work well with the Elegant set since they are treated as light attacks. It also works well with Scathing Mage by providing a non-DoT source of passive crit damage. It also makes keeping the shades up for Necropotence a possibility since their damage and synergies make it more profitable to refresh their duration!

Thanks for the input!

No problem.

Slotting two spammables is inviable in competitive PvP. People will pick Lash or Strife and not both. Our bars are simply too competitive for other abilities.

And the lifesteal debuff from Lash is acquired from an instant cast resto ability. I'd need to see something more unique to get on board with outright deleting Agony, but I would definitely be down to talk ideas.

Suggestions for enhancing Agony could include increasing the dot damage, adding a damage threshold before the stun breaks (like Fossilize), inflicting minor vulnerability or minor defile on targets after the cc breaks, a creeping dot or debuff that jumps from enemy to enemy, or any number of other mechanics. Get creative!

I do love scathing. Without using force shock, the uptime is abysmal though. I'd be very curious to see its uptime with shade attacks proccing it. Force shock spam yields about 67% uptime in my tests, which is great uptime, but shade won't be that high. Elegant would still be awful, even if Shade attacks counted as light attacks. You'd lose too much damage from other sources to remain competitive (PvP perspective).

Shade and therefore necropotence uptimes are already 100%.

And frags have a high proc chance and are queued for 6 seconds. No one goes into a sorc combo crossing their fingers for a frag. They're as planned as Assassin's Will... Honestly your proposed change to this ability would only serve to dumb down the class and make it easier for people who don't want to put in the practice to become proficient with a complex -- and extremely powerful -- ability, as well as increase the likelihood of damage nerfs. Unless you give me reasons why this or any change to the class actually enhances its gameplay and further develops nightblade as an identity, I can't approve. But I enjoy the conversation. Lol

@Vercingetorix
I like the suggestion but for Dark leash I say make it a dot. So it can't be considered a spammable plus reduce the stam version range to be strong melee.

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Here's some suggestions I have for improving the viability of NB's, especially in PvE. I'd like to hear some feedback from the community. Remember, this is about NB abilities, NOT other classes. Stam morphs and whatnot are always a class-wide issue, not just NB, but this post is about NB. Thanks!

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- Twisting Path: replaced with "Infectious Path", a stamina morph that deals Disease Damage, similar to how Power Extraction/Sap Essence morphs work - choose between magical healing damage or heavy disease damage.

- Refreshing Path: To compensate for losing Twisting Path, the damage of Refreshing Path is increased a bit.

- Strife: Both morphs' damage increased to be more in line with Force Pulse.

- Grim Focus: Both morphs' Assassin's Will proc when fired will refresh the duration of the buff, as well as allowing another proc to be generated.

- Summon Shade: Both morphs' damage is increased and the damage of the shade(s) are treated as additional "light attacks" performed by the player but don't count towards Assassin's Will. This will allow shades to "crit" and even proc some armor abilities, giving them more utility.

- Completely remove Agony and its morphs. They are worthless and clunky. Replace with the following new ability:

- Dark Lash: (magicka cost and damage, single target, instant, 28m range) Lash out at an enemy, striking at their spirit and siphoning their lifeforce. Enemies struck by this attack are afflicted with Minor Lifesteal for 15 seconds, restoring 600 health every 1 second you are damaging them.

MORPH 1: Soul Lash: (magicka cost and damage, single target, instant, 28m range) Now also applies Minor Breach for 15 seconds.

MORPH 2: Reaver Strike: (stamina cost and damage, single target, instant, 28m range) Converts to a stamina ability and deals disease damage (also slightly higher base damage).

---

This new ability would allow MagNB's to have another utility debuff and heal. You could even go so far as being a Healer with this ability, as you can apply the debuff to multiple enemies and generate passive heals, stacking with your resto staff abilities and Funnel Health! As a bonus, StamNB's get a new source of class-based stamina damage as well as HEALS! Every bit helps, and it will be much more useful thing to slot for survivability in PvE. The heals provided by this ability do not conflict with the Templar's flavor of healing - while the Templar has access to burst heals, the NB has primarily HoTs which it must stack. This change is merely giving NB's another avenue of debuffs and dedicated Healing in a group, rather than being slated for exclusively DPS or the occasional SapTank.

This is going to be an extensive list, as Nightblade balance has been my biggest gripe since this game launched. Obviously all of my suggestions are not meant to be done. Doing everything I suggest would make the class ridiculously overpowered, but here's a list of what I'd like to see most done with the class, to bring it into line with others in performance while maintaining a unique and high skill cap requirement.

Dark Veil now increases damage dealt to targets you are standing behind by 2% per rank (4% total) on top of increasing duration of Shadow Abilities.

Stealth no longer guarantees Weapon Critical attacks to crit, nor does it add a Critical Hit Modifier of 250%. Stealth now applies a debuff to enemies hit that increases their damage taken from all sources by 3% for 5 seconds, stacking up to 5 times. After reaching 5 stacks it will no longer refresh or reapply for 20 seconds after ending. The Nightblade that applies this debuff retains all Stealth/Invisible related passives during the duration this debuff is applied to an enemy. This does not require the Unseen mechanic to be at play, the user must merely be in the Crouch status or Invisible to apply these affects.
This suggestion does MANY things;
1. Reduces toxicity of gank builds in PvP, while retaining the Assassin feel to the class; giving key moments of surprise where the Nightblade has a great advantage on the user, and moments of great disadvantage where we are incentivized to be defensive or retreat.
2. Has the Nightblade make vital decisions prior to applying this because they want to control burst, and entering crouch still prevents Stamina regeneration. This makes this a high skill cap, high risk move to enact- while having proper executions be insanely rewarding.
3. Breathes life into the Nightblade's PvE application of the entire class's feel; Stealth. Stealth is currently USELESS in all end game PvE, making Nightblades the weakest class around.

I'd prefer to see Path be kept as a Magicka ability exclusively, as homogenization of Magicka and Stamina Nightblade would be highly disadvantageous to end game performance. Keeping some abilities more Magicka OR Stamina based is vital to let playstyles feel unique and different when making a build. I'd much rather see this happen;

Twisting Path now applies a debuff to any enemy inside that increases all Magic damage they take by 10%. Think of this as Engulfing Flames from the Dragonknight that amps Fire damage by 10% against the enemy. This would help Magblade feel much more inticing in group compositions, as well as adding more dynamic PvP gameplay. As a ground DoT, the ability is easily walked out of, but also enables for great synergy of snares and root based builds to sync up to bolster their potency.

Refreshing Path could apply Minor Staminasteal to enemies inside, helping both PvP Nightblades sustain and giving Nightblade healers an option to return resources to their group mates in a new and unique way.

Increasing Strife's damage to be in line with Force Pulse doesn't make much sense. The skill is in a very solid spot right now for what it tries to do. It costs less, heals, and has group or selfish utility based on morph options.

The ability that needs help is Concealed Weapon. This is currently reduced as a glorified passive slot for gank builds and moving around quickly in cloak. The fact that this Melee range HIGH COST ability is out DPSed by Force Pulse is disgusting. It can be used quite well with Cloak builds, but unfortunately Cloak is so unreliable it's power is mitigated heavily in PvP. Furthermore, the skill is useless in PvE. I'd love to see a damage increase and perhaps a unique bonus such as Minor Breach be tacked onto this to let Nightblades feel more unique to groups.

Your suggestion for Grim Focus, as @NightbladeMechanics has mentioned, merely turns it into a more reliable Sorc Frags without a stun. I would much rather see the option to fire multiple Spectral Bows after 5 Light/Heavy attacks and then bring down the duration to 15 seconds. This still rewards the Nightblade to actively weave during the duration and to line up key moments of burst, while taking away from some of the power by increasing the requirement and decreasing the duration.

Summon Shade is in a very unique spot to become something much much greater. When I first saw this skill I was so excited because it reminded me a lot of Zed from League of Legend's Shadow Image ability. I figured it would follow me and copy distinct Nightblade abilities at a fraction of their damage and be a really key skill to run as either Magicka or Stamina.
The idea is simple; have Summon Shade (and morphs) copy all of your Nightblade Class skills, at a fraction (roughly 30% or so) of their original hit. I cast Funnel Health and it heals an ally for 4k? Shade throws another and heals another ally for 1200. Obviously numbers are up for debate, but this would help Tank, Healer, and both DPS Nightblades truly stand out and enable for many unique builds.

Death Stroke is one of the easiest skills to rework. Simply put it back to what it used to be, an Ultimate that scaled in efficiency based on how much Ultimate you cast it with (lowest being 50, highest being 275). Casting the Ultimate with under 100 ulti would have it do slightly above spammable damage, and only activate the increased Damage against targets by 20% for 6 seconds. Casting the Ultimate over 150 ultimate would do the same thing as it does now on both morphs. Casting at 275 Ulti would increase damage and duration of effects, and add a small lasting DoT function along side the duration of their effects.

Consuming Darkness has my personal favorite idea, that comes loaded in with a major overhaul to Stealth. The synergy on this Ultimate was my main inspiration that really had me upset that myself as the caster couldn't utilize. Consuming Darkness now allows the caster to freely be treated as if they are in Stealth for the duration. Dealing damage or being hit will not end this, but they are still fully visible to enemies during this time. This plays perfectly with the Stealth overhaul because it enables powerful utility available to the Nightblade, while removing some of the harsher penalties (No Stam regen removal from having to crouch, full mobility, etc) in exchange for an Ultimate. This helps newer, less hardcore players make use of the new Stealth system, and keeps this Ultimate in use.
Veil of Blades now deals Physical or Disease damage. I mean, it's called Veil of BLADES. Remove Major Protection and apply the same effect that the base morph does with the new Stealth overhaul. If standing behind an enemy, Dark Veil's bonus is doubled for the duration.
Bolstering Darkness now applies Major Protection to all allies who stand inside, while also retaining the original ability's Stealth interaction.


I have so many other ideas for this class, but I really find these to be some of my favorites that I'd love to see. Again, I'm not imply each of these should be done because they'd make Nightblades over the top.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel Please take a look at these suggestions, Nightblades are in dire need of love in terms of both relevance, as well as toning down some of their most overbearing avenues.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shade and therefore necropotence uptimes are already 100%.

This is true, but shades are unfortunately completely useless with necropotence (except maybe if you're frost staff tanking). Sorcerers make much better use of necropotence because their volatile familiar actually does something (10k+ aoe damage pulse).

I really like the shades, they're really cool, but they're just not worth casting for DPS right now. My suggestion would be to change the dark shades morph: leave it at 1 shade (same as the unmorphed ability), and have it apply its own version of DOTs that you cast, say at 50% strength (so when you cast cripple, or twisting path, it casts cripple, twisting path etc). This would drastically increase the power of magicka nightblades (which I think they desperately need, because it really feels they're casting their spells with a wet noodle or something).

Good job Gilliam!!

They need to give them one good heal. (They have a heal or two, just not good ones.) Right now, people are suggesting doing PvP in Cyrodiil just so you can get a good heal skill to use with nightblades. A lot of people don't want to have to join the army in Cy in order to get a skill, especially since it doesn't come until Alliance War rank 5, I believe.
They also need to give them one good ultimate, because the nightblade ultimates suck. I've seen suggestions to use the Fighter's Guild ultimate with nightblades.